Religions - Your Opinion

[Sasquatch]

The whole story of the Bible is fine, just not what it teachs. In the event your next post says "have you read the bible" The answer is no. And to play ahead of time. I dont plan on ever reading it. I dont need god in my life.

So you don't need it, don't want it, don't have any idea what it's about, but still don't like it. Kind of aggorant and ignorant, don't you think?

But I can say that I have read the Bible in the past ( I wouldn't say the whole thing..) ...

So you've read it, but you haven't read it?

I hate when Bible thumpers come knocking on my door trying to convert me

Damn those people! They believe that their beliefs will save them from an eternity in Hell, and they have the audacity to come try to save me from it too? What jerks!

Whats the point?? think about It if someone came up to you and tried to tell you that your religion is false would you listen?? of course not!! so why would someone else?

Because some people aren't like you, and some people DO listen. They do things like, say, ask "why". They usually come back around to the beliefs they held before, but still. It's very ignorant to stereotype Christians with the assumption that they never question or re-evaluate their own beliefs.

Besides, I'm all for love and peace, doesn't that make me a good christian even though I say I'm not one?

What makes you a good person does not necessarily make you a good Christian. Christianity is a religion of FAITH, not works. According to Christianity, it's not what you do, it's what you believe that's important.

If you're trying to say that following the Bible is the only way to happiness, and that being friendly in general, without following all those (here it comes) rules is a waste of time, you're no better than muslim fundamentalists who think everyone that doesn't live by the Koran is the devil.

Except for the whole not-wishing-death-on-nonbelievers thing, you might be a little closer.

Rules. Yes, he wants you to follow the rules he gave us. Such as no sex before marriage, not using his name in vain, cursing, and other sorts of Sins.

If you have any knowledge or understanding of the Bible, I'd like you to point out passages prohibiting sex before marriage and cursing. Cursing is considered generally improper and dictated by society, not religion.

Here you are claiming that only people who believe in God get to 'go to heaven', while acting like the most righteous person on earth.

It's not God, it's Jesus, according to Christianity. And whether you think he's self-righteous or not, according to the Bible, it's the belief in salvation by God through Jesus that gets people out of Hell -- not what they do or how "righteous" they are.

Isn't it un-christian to say only people like you deserve eternal happiness? (Cause I assume that's what you mean by 'heaven'.)

No, it's very Christian to say that only people who believe in Christianity get into Heaven. There's nothing to "deserve" or "earn" -- NOBODY deserves to get into Heaven. Under Christian belief, faith doesn't "get you into Heaven", it gets you out of Hell. Nobody is "good" enough to pay for all the bad things they've done, so it's only through acceptance of Jesus's sacrifice (the only one who did nothing bad) that we can get out of Hell, the place where we would pay for our sins.

This is basically saying everyone else who is not [Christian] will go to Hell, which I don't think is true. ... are you telling me that because I am not Christian I too will go to hell eventhough I DO believe in God?? (pshhh!)

That's what the Bible says.

Have you heard of the concept of the Abrahamic faiths? Both Christianity and Islam are descendants of Judaism. Jesus is a prophet in the Islamic tradition.

Islam branched off Judaism, not Christianity, but they both branched from Judaism, if that's what you're referring to. Islam was founded well after Christianity, but Islam understands Jesus the same way Judaism does -- not the Messiah.

Islam was founded as a way to "go back" to the original Judaism, because Mohammad believed that the original teachings and beliefs had been corrupted by those who controlled it.

So while Christianity could be considered the child of Judaism, Islam would be the attempted clone that turned out all screwed up.

Yahweh, Allah, and the Christian God (the Father), are the same being.

In theory, yes. According to how Islam interprets their god and how Judaism and Christianity view their god (God), hell no. The God of the Torah and the Bible asks much, much different of his followers than the god of the Qur'an.

Mohammad did not teach the Arabs to believe in an entirely new deity, so he was clearly building on the Judeo-Christian tradition.

First -- it wasn't a Judeo-Christian tradition at all. It didn't branch off Christianity, it branched off Judaism. And second, Mohammad incorporated some old beliefs and traditions with his new stuff, and also included some pagan rituals, to "stay with the times", if you will. The sacred rocks and crap like that.

Personally, I'm a liberal Catholic. I believe in Heaven, but I'm not so sure about Hell, and I believe that anyone can go to Heaven.

So you claim to be Catholic, but you don't follow the Bible ... do you follow the Catholic Church, or just do your own thing?

Jesus said that to love our neighbours and to love God are the most important lessons. That summarises Jesus' message. But if Jesus thinks that just because someone didn't get all these special oils rubbed on their forehead that they can't be saved, then that's not really loving one's neighbour, is it?

Being saved is just that -- SAVED. It's not "getting to go to a good place", it's "not having to go to Hell". The only thing somebody has to do is believe, and that's not easy enough?

Sending Muslims to Hell for not believing in the Christian concept of (what is really the same) religion is not loving them.

It's not the same religion, not at all. Nobody would be "sent", they just wouldn't be saved from it -- we're all headed that way anyway, and the only way out of it is to accept Jesus. If it was a situation of "not loving them", there would be no way for them to get out of Hell.

Provided people don't kill and rape and do stuff that most countries criminalise, then you'll be all good.

According to the Bible, it's not what you do, it's what your believe. Faith, not works. Murderers and rapists can repent and accept Jesus, and they'll end up in Heaven.

Something I've heard before that makes perfect sense, is that there will be a lot of surprised people in Hell, and a lot of surprised people in Heaven. (Some will think, "I was a good person," while they're in Hell, and others, "I was a Christian, but not a good one" while they're in Heaven.

Remember that Christianity doesn't have a high horse. In the Crusades we killed tens of thousands of Jews in the Pogroms, and tens of thousands of Muslims in the Holy Land.

That was the Catholic Church. And let's not forget that the Holy Land was taken over through force by Muslims, and the Crusades were about taking them back.

When a religion is founded and its FIRST movement is a military invasion, it kind of tells you something.

The Bible does have lessons, Rags. Just like how one can learn from a textbook. The lessons however are largely narratives, and need to be placed in context and read critically, not literally.

That is all fine and dandy for people who don't claim to be Christian.

I don't believe in conversion. I think forcing one's beliefs onto another is wrong. Especially because religion and culture are linked. To convert someone would be to dislocate them from their ancestry and culture. Choosing to convert is a lot different though.

At some points in history, forceful conversion happened (for prettymuch all religions), which of course was wrong. At this point, however, at least Christianity does missions and outreach programs that help spread Christianity through education.

[Alpha]

So you've read it, but you haven't read it?

Oh so it's not acceptable to skip over all the genealogical crap in Genesis which are just lists of names? No, I have to read every word for myself before I'm saved? And what of those who can't read? Or are told what to believe and end up doing everything (by your definition of) right?

Damn those people! They believe that their beliefs will save them from an eternity in Hell, and they have the audacity to come try to save me from it too? What jerks!

The problem is that anyone who has a faith has a similar belief. Muslims believe the exact same thing, but I'm going to assume if they came to your door, you would either get very angry or try and counter-convert. If you do the 'Christian' thing (and I hope you would), and love them by hearing them out and not criticising their religion, you wouldn't convert, would you? So what was the point of the whole exercise? By zealous Christians most of the time, and by zealous Muslims in this example?

Because some people aren't like you, and some people DO listen. They do things like, say, ask "why". They usually come back around to the beliefs they held before, but still. It's very ignorant to stereotype Christians with the assumption that they never question or re-evaluate their own beliefs.

Yes, that is true. But it seems that you aren't really evaluating the "God loves everybody" thing beyond your own scope of "everybody" (i.e. every Christian).

What makes you a good person does not necessarily make you a good Christian. Christianity is a religion of FAITH, not works. According to Christianity, it's not what you do, it's what you believe that's important.

You sound like a pre-Reformation Catholic. They sure had faith in those indulgences. Luther came and said that we needed good works as well as faith.

By your argument, I could rape and murder, as long as, in my mind, I was a good Christian who had a tremendous faith in Jesus to save me? WORKS are the most important part of getting your salvation. It's not enough just to believe. Did Jesus spend all day praying, or did he actually help people? I'm not giving a Bible reference here except for the whole New Testament.

Except for the whole not-wishing-death-on-nonbelievers thing, you might be a little closer.

You're marginalising the world's second-largest religion down to fundamentalists. I know plenty of Muslims. I went to my University's open-prayer-room day two weeks ago. I told them I was a Catholic and that I was interested in learning about what they believed, though I'm happy with my faith. They explained what all the praying was about, and some of their beliefs and festivals. I don't recall the bit where they tried to kill me for my "non-belief". In fact, they gave me lunch.

Besides, plenty of fundamentalist Christians do believe that non-believers must die. Isn't the Rapture an even more extreme version of the same thing? Not only will non-believers die, but they will suffer eternally.

What happened to forgiveness?

It's not God, it's Jesus, according to Christianity. And whether you think he's self-righteous or not, according to the Bible, it's the belief in salvation by God through Jesus that gets people out of Hell -- not what they do or how "righteous" they are.

You prefix everything with "according to the Bible". Sure, that's a good way to live, but it's a little extreme in many cases. If a non-Christian was to emulate Mother Theresa, would they go to Hell? That's your argument. Think for yourself just a tiny bit. Does that sound right?

No, it's very Christian to say that only people who believe in Christianity get into Heaven. There's nothing to "deserve" or "earn" -- NOBODY deserves to get into Heaven. Under Christian belief, faith doesn't "get you into Heaven", it gets you out of Hell. Nobody is "good" enough to pay for all the bad things they've done, so it's only through acceptance of Jesus's sacrifice (the only one who did nothing bad) that we can get out of Hell, the place where we would pay for our sins.

Hell is the place where we "pay for our sins". Is it sinful to do everything Jesus said about works, but not believe in Him? I thought sin was based on action? Sure, there's the whole "Original Sin" thing, but even Christians have that their entire lives, so that can't be the reason for going to Hell for non-belief.

That's what the Bible says.

The Bible says a lot of things. But the Old Testament was originally a verbal tradition extending a very long time, and was only codified relatively recently in it's history. Who's to say we should interpret that literally? Creationism... fail. You only need to go to one geology lecture to see why. 6000 years? As if, mate. This is only one example of why the Bible (in particular the O.T.) should not be read literally. The New testament is a bit more accurate, but it has missing books, dodgy translations, was largely written several decades after the events, and occasionally has conflicting representations of the same events.

It is full of moral messages, and I think if more people lived by it, then we would be better off. But we don't have to be Christian (and we shouldn't be fundamentalists) to do this. The moral messages do exist apart from Christianity. Just because someone is not a Christian does not mean they are evil.

Islam branched off Judaism, not Christianity, but they both branched from Judaism, if that's what you're referring to.

Yes, that's what I said. Islam and Christianity have the exact same base - Judaism. Islam was several hundred years after Christianity.

Islam was founded well after Christianity, but Islam understands Jesus the same way Judaism does -- not the Messiah.

But their conception of God (the Christian 'Father') is the same. The Torah is the Old Testament (though it contains additional books), but Islam is significantly different. But my point is, they worship the same deity.

Islam was founded as a way to "go back" to the original Judaism, because Mohammad believed that the original teachings and beliefs had been corrupted by those who controlled it.

So while Christianity could be considered the child of Judaism, Islam would be the attempted clone that turned out all screwed up.

Islam is all screwed up? And Christian fundamentalists believe that the world is 6000 years old. Who is screwed up sorry?

Islam is, for the most part, like most religions, a peaceful faith. Yes, it can become violent when linked to nationalism. Osama wishes death to America based on the fact of American troops being based in Saudi Arabia. If you are not familiar with this fact, let me know, and I'll quote Osama's own words (it's in my Religious Studies textbook).

In theory, yes. According to how Islam interprets their god and how Judaism and Christianity view their god (God), hell no. The God of the Torah and the Bible asks much, much different of his followers than the god of the Qur'an.

I don't deny that. If their God asked the same things, then they would be the same religion. But it's still the same God.

First -- it wasn't a Judeo-Christian tradition at all. It didn't branch off Christianity, it branched off Judaism. And second, Mohammad incorporated some old beliefs and traditions with his new stuff, and also included some pagan rituals, to "stay with the times", if you will. The sacred rocks and crap like that.

It was a Judeo-Christian tradition. Explain how Jesus and Mary both turn up in the Koran? Jesus isn't in the Torah (unless, as Christians believe, Jesus is the Messiah). Ergo, it was both Judaism and Christianity that Islam sprouted from, though mostly Judaism, I'll concede.

So you claim to be Catholic, but you don't follow the Bible ... do you follow the Catholic Church, or just do your own thing?

Catholics gain inspiration from both the Bible and from tradition (i.e. The Holy See). Pope Benedict has said that belief in the Immaculate Conception isn't a necessary belief to be a Catholic. My R.E. teacher in my final year of High School certainly didn't believe it. And considering that Mary would've been about 12 or 13 when she had Jesus, she says it is preposterous to suggest that she wouldn't have had more children.

Simply put, the Catholic Church is based in the Bible, but interpretations can and do vary. It's called liberalism (to an extent).

Being saved is just that -- SAVED. It's not "getting to go to a good place", it's "not having to go to Hell". The only thing somebody has to do is believe, and that's not easy enough?

No, it's very difficult. Especially for one who has been brought up under a different tradition their entire life. Would you convert to Christianity if you were born and raised a Muslim or a Hindu? You're asking them to change their whole life - a fairly big ask. And what of those who have never heard the Good News? Tribes in the Amazon is a fair stereotype. Do they go to Heaven or Hell? I'd like to think Heaven, just like unbaptised babies.

It's not the same religion, not at all. Nobody would be "sent", they just wouldn't be saved from it -- we're all headed that way anyway, and the only way out of it is to accept Jesus. If it was a situation of "not loving them", there would be no way for them to get out of Hell.

Do you know that the only way out is through Jesus? Sure, I think it is a "way out", but I don't and can't believe that it is the only one. I know plenty of people who are not Christian, but are probably 'better Christians' than me.

According to the Bible, it's not what you do, it's what your believe. Faith, not works. Murderers and rapists can repent and accept Jesus, and they'll end up in Heaven.

And people can tend the sick, shelter the poor, and comfort the lonely and end up in Hell? I'd say they were prime candidates to sit with the Lamb.

Something I've heard before that makes perfect sense, is that there will be a lot of surprised people in Hell, and a lot of surprised people in Heaven. (Some will think, "I was a good person," while they're in Hell, and others, "I was a Christian, but not a good one" while they're in Heaven.

Ask yourself. Do you want to accept that?

That was the Catholic Church. And let's not forget that the Holy Land was taken over through force by Muslims, and the Crusades were about taking them back.

It was the Christians who were not of the Eastern or Coptic churches. I.e the forerunners of Catholics and Protestants. And the Catholic Church wasn't chased out of the Holy Land by Muslims, no they established themselves in Europe (St Peter). Pope Urban thought it would be kool to have them, but it was sort of unprovoked.

When a religion is founded and its FIRST movement is a military invasion, it kind of tells you something.

It tells you that three religions share the same holy sites, and that there are understandable tensions.

That is all fine and dandy for people who don't claim to be Christian.

It's fine and dandy to anyone with an ounce of reason as well. Being a Christian doesn't mean you have to forfeit reason. To quote you:

It's very ignorant to stereotype Christians with the assumption that they never question or re-evaluate their own beliefs.

And yet you do just that.

At some points in history, forceful conversion happened (for prettymuch all religions), which of course was wrong. At this point, however, at least Christianity does missions and outreach programs that help spread Christianity through education.

Education, a lot of which is misguided, ignorant, and bigoted. A better way would be to show others what Christians do: help those who need it. I'm sure that would send a more powerful message that Limbaugh's hateful vitriol.