Quote:
Originally Posted by
TenseikenSlash
Like I said before i'm not a huge ( go to church everyday ) person,my point in that was i'ts not like I haven't had some influence from the bible,it's exactly as it says: I havent read the whole thing.
So you haven't even read the holy book of the religion you have so many problems with. I'm just getting the situation straight here. Is that correct? Those damn "Bible-thumpers" should just keep to themselves, it's wrong to say that non-Christians won't end up in Heaven even though that's what Christianity states, etc. ...
Quote:
First of all, I already stated that I know they're intensions are good. Once again,would you actually change your religous beliefs because someone came to your door telling you all the falts in your religon?? Of course you're gonna listen to what they have to say, but in the end nothing changes you're just being nice and taking to their generosity by hearing them out.
If somebody presents a convincing argument for ANY issue, I hear it out -- not out of courtesy, but out of curiosity. I want to know more about it. And if they present a good, informative argument, they might convince me to check it out for myself, which might lead me to change my stance. If I don't change it, I will come back to it with a stronger belief in it. This has happened to me in regards to religious, political, ethical, and every other type of issue.
Quote:
Who's stereotyping???? that was general, I never said Christians.
In that case, it's very ignorant to claim that people of any specific religion will never question or re-evaluate their own beliefs. Of any belief, period, not just religions.
Quote:
Don't you think God would much rather have you believe in him to the fullest and and have faith in him,showing your commitment, rather than worry about some name you slaped on to yourself ??
That depends on what religion you follow. According to Christianity, what's important is faith that Jesus is the Son of God and gave His life to pay for our sin.
Quote:
You're doing what every other religion does,telling everyone else they're wrong,while you float by in your ship of right :ohno:.
Where did I claim that one religion was right and others were wrong, or that I belonged to or followed any specific religion at all? Please point that out to me, would you?
Quote:
That's exactly what it means so say: Only Christians will go to Heaven,and Thats exactly the crap I get when people come to my door too,and you make it seem like I should feel bad for not wanting to hear them out...Teh!
Not bad. If you feel that you're right and don't have to listen to anybody else's beliefs, you do that. You don't have to listen to anybody else -- you believe that your beliefs are right, and you're going to stick to them, no matter who tries to talk to you about their beliefs. Of course, this is the same thing that you have a problem with Christians/Christianity for -- believing that their way is the only right way -- but it's different for YOUR way, right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alpha Weapon
Oh so it's not acceptable to skip over all the genealogical crap in Genesis which are just lists of names?
In Genesis? ... That's two chapters. You can't honestly be arrogant enough to assume that somebody is referring to two chapters of genealogy when they admit to not having read all of the Bible.
Quote:
No, I have to read every word for myself before I'm saved?
Not at all -- you don't have to have read any of the Bible before you become Christian, if you hear the message from other people. Many, many people became Christians without ever having touched a Bible.
Quote:
The problem is that anyone who has a faith has a similar belief. Muslims believe the exact same thing, but I'm going to assume if they came to your door, you would either get very angry or try and counter-convert.
You'd assume wrong. Of course everybody who has faith in anything believes themselves to be right.
Quote:
If you do the 'Christian' thing (and I hope you would), and love them by hearing them out and not criticising their religion ...
Really? It's "the Christian" thing to be involved in a discussion of religion with those who do not follow the same beliefs and never bring up how Christianity is "right"?
Quote:
... you wouldn't convert, would you?
Probably not, but who knows? A lot of people convert because of neighborhood preaching.
Quote:
So what was the point of the whole exercise? By zealous Christians most of the time, and by zealous Muslims in this example?
What's wrong with being zealous about any belief, as long as you're peaceful about it? All too many ignorant people use "zealous" and "fundamentalist" as insults. And the point of the whole exercise would be to spread your belief -- even if you didn't "convert" anybody, you still brought it up, so they might think about it later, consider it, maybe want to learn more about it, etc.
On that note, what's the point of your post to me, or this part of this post, that addresses you, if we both know that at this point, neither of us has changed the other's mind?
Quote:
Yes, that is true. But it seems that you aren't really evaluating the "God loves everybody" thing beyond your own scope of "everybody" (i.e. every Christian).
Where in this thread have I declared my beliefs?
Still, according to Christianity, God loves everybody, but everybody has sinned, which means the only place they deserve to go is Hell. It's being "saved" through faith in Jesus that gets believers into Heaven. It's not an issue of love at all.
Say, you have a kid. You tell that kid that the stove is hot. You tell him again that the stove is hot, and that he/she should stay away from it. You tell him again that the stove is hot, and it will burn him/her. You tell him/her many more times. But you don't control the kid, and sure enough, the kid puts his/her hand on he burner and gets the crap burned out of him. According to your illogical line of thinking here, that must mean that you don't love that kid.
Quote:
You sound like a pre-Reformation Catholic.
I don't sound like a Catholic at all.
Quote:
They sure had faith in those indulgences. Luther came and said that we needed good works as well as faith.
... The indulgences were Catholic, not Christian. Luther's problem was with the Church, and with clergy, doing whatever they wanted to and justifying it through the Bible, then claiming that certain things -- like PAYING THE CHURCH -- would help "repay" a person's debt of sin. You do something bad, you pray a few times (to Mary, something totally against Christianity, but that's another subject) and give the Church some money and you'll be forgiven. THAT is what Luther's 95 Theses were about -- following the Bible and not the Church.
Quote:
By your argument, I could rape and murder, as long as, in my mind, I was a good Christian who had a tremendous faith in Jesus to save me?
That would be between you and God, not up to me. According to Christianity, sinners -- whether they lied once or they murdered a dozen people -- are forgiven through Jesus. But you could not Biblically justify rape and murder, so though you could do those things and still repent, it would be God's judgment of whether or not you were serious.
Quote:
WORKS are the most important part of getting your salvation.
Not in Christianity, they're not.
Quote:
It's not enough just to believe.
... it is in Christianity. See, this is where it would have helped to have read the Bible.
Quote:
Did Jesus spend all day praying, or did he actually help people?
Jesus wasn't a Christian, He was a Jew.
Quote:
I'm not giving a Bible reference here except for the whole New Testament.
PLEASE DO. Please. I want a Bible verse that says that -- like you said -- "WORKS are the most important part of getting your salvation. [sic]" I want a verse. I mean, here, I'll show you some verses that say the exact opposite ...
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. -Ephesians 2:8,9
When He saw their faith, He said to him, “Man, your sins are forgiven you.” -Luke 5:20
But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”
And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." -Luke 23:42-43
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. -John 3:14-18
Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” -John 6:28-29
But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. -Romans 3:21-26
...
Now, that's a mere fraction of what I found with a simple Google search. I would LOVE for you to post a verse that says the exact opposite -- that works are more important than faith. Honestly, please do. Obviously, you've seen that "the entire New Testament" severely disagrees with your assertion that works are more important than faith, or even comparable ... but let's see what you can find.
Quote:
You're marginalising the world's second-largest religion down to fundamentalists.
Alright kid, you need to know what "fundamentalist" means. It means those who take something seriously and literally. If you read the Bible and followed exactly what it says, you'd be a fundamentalist Christian. If you read the Torah and followed exactly what it says, you'd be a fundamentalist Jew. If you read the Qur'an and followed exactly what it says, you'd be a fundamentalist Muslim.
So using "fundamentalists" -- those who follow the religion closest -- as a representation of the entire religion itself (not its followers, but the religion) isn't a bad thing.
That having been said, when the Qur'an tells its followers to kill non-believers, you can't say much else about it.
Quote:
I know plenty of Muslims. I went to my University's open-prayer-room day two weeks ago. I told them I was a Catholic and that I was interested in learning about what they believed, though I'm happy with my faith. They explained what all the praying was about, and some of their beliefs and festivals. I don't recall the bit where they tried to kill me for my "non-belief". In fact, they gave me lunch.
I've encountered the kinds that try to kill me for various reasons, the kinds that try to kill me -- or simply resent me -- because I don't follow Islam, and the kinds that care more about people than what religion they are. Next time you supposedly go to that open prayer session, ask about the verses that detail the slaughtering of infidels. Of course, before you do that, you might want to do a little reading in the Qur'an ... but then, if you claim to be Catholic, you might want to do a lot of reading in the Bible, too.
Quote:
Besides, plenty of fundamentalist Christians do believe that non-believers must die.
Yes, because you see Christian suicide bombers and terrorists attacking non-Christian civilian groups every week, it seems like, right?
Quote:
Isn't the Rapture an even more extreme version of the same thing? Not only will non-believers die, but they will suffer eternally.
First of all, even believers will die. Second, there is a HUGE difference between believing that they WILL die (as in, they will die) and believing that they MUST die (as in, we should make them die).
Quote:
What happened to forgiveness?
In Christianity, it comes with Jesus. Jesus [the] Christ. Hence ... "CHRISTianity".
Quote:
You prefix everything with "according to the Bible". Sure, that's a good way to live, but it's a little extreme in many cases.
Then don't live like that. You have the freedom to follow whatever religion you choose.
Quote:
If a non-Christian was to emulate Mother Theresa, would they go to Hell? That's your argument. Think for yourself just a tiny bit. Does that sound right?
I don't make the rules, kid. You want your own rules, star your own religion ... you might as well, seeing as you don't believe Christianity.
Quote:
Hell is the place where we "pay for our sins". Is it sinful to do everything Jesus said about works, but not believe in Him? I thought sin was based on action? Sure, there's the whole "Original Sin" thing, but even Christians have that their entire lives, so that can't be the reason for going to Hell for non-belief.
First, yes, it is a sin. Second, nobody -- NOBODY -- is perfect, except for Jesus Himself. The Bible says that one sin is enough to keep us out of Heaven -- unless our sins are forgiven, through the only entity who can forgive sin.
Quote:
The Bible says a lot of things. But the Old Testament was originally a verbal tradition extending a very long time, and was only codified relatively recently in it's history. Who's to say we should interpret that literally?
Christians believe that it was inspired by God -- as in, God made sure it was written correctly. Thus, it would be correct and literal.
Quote:
Creationism... fail. You only need to go to one geology lecture to see why. 6000 years? As if, mate.
I would love to discuss Creation vs. the religion of Evolutionism with you -- and in doing so, correct your ignorance -- but perhaps another time, in another thread. This isn't the place.
Quote:
This is only one example of why the Bible (in particular the O.T.) should not be read literally. The New testament is a bit more accurate, but it has missing books, dodgy translations, was largely written several decades after the events, and occasionally has conflicting representations of the same events.
It has "missing books" because the Catholic Church says it has "missing books" -- it also has books that the Catholic Church added. Most translations now are extremely accurate to original texts. Christians believe that it was inspired by God, so it doesn't matter when it was written -- hell, it could have been written before the events took place. While I've seen some sad attempts at pointing out "conflicting representations of the same events", the differences are minor, if existent at all and not simply fabricated or misinterpreted (by the individual).
Quote:
It is full of moral messages, and I think if more people lived by it, then we would be better off. But we don't have to be Christian (and we shouldn't be fundamentalists) to do this. The moral messages do exist apart from Christianity. Just because someone is not a Christian does not mean they are evil.
So you don't have to be Christian if you don't want, and you don't have to follow the Bible ("fundamentalist") if you don't want. Be a "good person". Live how you want. Do your own thang. Just don't call yourself a Christian when you're obviously not -- or even a Catholic when you're obviously not.
And nobody here said that non-Christians are evil, did they? In fact, I've gone over several times that Christianity states that the major difference between a Christian and a non-Christian -- and the only difference that matters -- is their faith.
Quote:
But their conception of God (the Christian 'Father') is the same. The Torah is the Old Testament (though it contains additional books), but Islam is significantly different. But my point is, they worship the same deity.
The point is, no they don't. Yahweh and God don't tell their followers to slaughter those who don't believe in them -- not as a general rule, anyway.
Quote:
Islam is all screwed up?
Yes. When a holy book states that giving one's life during the slaughter of infidels will automatically grant passage into paradise, it's screwed up.
Quote:
And Christian fundamentalists believe that the world is 6000 years old. Who is screwed up sorry?
Once again, this isn't the time or the place to correct your ignorance -- or your arrogance.
Quote:
Islam is, for the most part, like most religions, a peaceful faith.
Except for the whole terrorist, suicide bombs, IEDs, slaughtering of infidels, the fact that more than 90% of the conflicts in the last few decades have involved Muslms, etc. etc. ... sure, pretty peaceful.
Quote:
Yes, it can become violent when linked to nationalism. Osama wishes death to America based on the fact of American troops being based in Saudi Arabia. If you are not familiar with this fact, let me know, and I'll quote Osama's own words (it's in my Religious Studies textbook).
Osama bin Laden also wishes death to America based on the fact that Americans are free to worship who- or whatever they choose, American women show their ankles and are allowed to do things like drive and vote, and that we won't let other Muslim terrorists slaughter every Jew in existence -- which is the stated goal of many Islamic organizations, including some countries.
Quote:
It was a Judeo-Christian tradition. Explain how Jesus and Mary both turn up in the Koran?
Explain where.
Quote:
Catholics gain inspiration from both the Bible and from tradition (i.e. The Holy See). Pope Benedict has said that belief in the Immaculate Conception isn't a necessary belief to be a Catholic.
This is why there is a difference between Catholicism and Christianity. Christians follow the holy book of Christianity -- the Bible. Other religions may follow a mix of between the Bible, certain organizations, and appointed leaders, but that would make them non-Christian. And when said appointed leaders openly state that belief in the Bible is not necessary to follow their religion, it's obvious that their religion isn't Christianity.
Quote:
My R.E. teacher in my final year of High School certainly didn't believe it. And considering that Mary would've been about 12 or 13 when she had Jesus, she says it is preposterous to suggest that she wouldn't have had more children.
It's preposterous to suggest that Mary wouldn't have had more children? Well, let's see ... since Jesus was born in a stable, without a pap smear, ultrasound, epidural, etc., it's safe to assume that women back then would have a higher chance of becoming sterile after their first child.
That would be overlooking the Bible, though, and the fact that SHE DID HAVE MORE CHILDREN. Jesus had a brother named James.
Again. Reading the Bible might help when discussing the Bible. Just a little bit.
Quote:
Simply put, the Catholic Church is based in the Bible, but interpretations can and do vary. It's called liberalism (to an extent).
It's called not being based on the Bible, or even the manipulations that the Catholic Church has tried to pass.
Quote:
No, it's very difficult. Especially for one who has been brought up under a different tradition their entire life. Would you convert to Christianity if you were born and raised a Muslim or a Hindu? You're asking them to change their whole life - a fairly big ask.
Where they'd spend eternity is a fairly big issue, too. Eternity's kinda long, you know.
Quote:
And what of those who have never heard the Good News? Tribes in the Amazon is a fair stereotype. Do they go to Heaven or Hell? I'd like to think Heaven, just like unbaptised babies.
While I don't know enough about this to say for sure what the Bible says, I think they are judged on what they DO believe, combined with their actions.
Quote:
Do you know that the only way out is through Jesus?
No. That's what faith is for.
Quote:
Sure, I think it is a "way out", but I don't and can't believe that it is the only one. I know plenty of people who are not Christian, but are probably 'better Christians' than me.
Considering the fact that you claim to be Christian, or at least Catholic, but do not believe or follow the Bible ... yes, there are probably quite a few people who are "better Christians" than you are.
If you're referring to people with better works but without the Christian faith, that's one thing. If you're insinuating that one person of faith can be "better" in the eyes of God than another, you are -- once again -- not following the Bible. Since faith is all that matters, strength in faith is important, not whether somebody is "good" or not.
Quote:
And people can tend the sick, shelter the poor, and comfort the lonely and end up in Hell? I'd say they were prime candidates to sit with the Lamb.
Once again, them's the rules. You can do as much good as you want, and we've all still sinned, which would make us unworthy. Unless we were forgiven.
Quote:
It was the Christians who were not of the Eastern or Coptic churches. I.e the forerunners of Catholics and Protestants.
The Protestants split from the Catholics because Catholicism placed too much of an emphasis on the Church and not enough on the Bible. Still, it was the Church that pushed for the Crusades.
Quote:
And the Catholic Church wasn't chased out of the Holy Land by Muslims, no they established themselves in Europe (St Peter).
The Church wasn't chased out because the Church wasn't there -- it was Christianity and Christians that were chased out.
Quote:
Pope Urban thought it would be kool to have them, but it was sort of unprovoked.
Except for the whole convert-or-be-slaughtered tactic the Muslims had when they moved in. It was a while before, sure, but it certainly wasn't an invasion of a friendly neighbor.
Quote:
It tells you that three religions share the same holy sites, and that there are understandable tensions.
Yes, and there are multiple conflicts between Christians and Jews right now over those holy sites, aren't there? Those Christians and Jews just fighting to the death over ... wait? What's that you say? There are no conflicts between Christians and Jews? They're all between Muslims and Jews or Muslims and Christians? But Christians and Jews share some of the same holy sites -- almost all of them. You mean Christians and Jews DON'T slaughter each other? There aren't many Jewish suicide bombers that target buses full of Christian women and children? There aren't many Christians who drop mortars into Jewish densely-populated civilian areas?
Besides, for one thing, the Muslim world's problem with Israel isn't with a "holy site", it's because Israel exists. And for another, Islam's holy sites were not only Jewish holy sites long before, but also include cities which were taken in a military invasion. Do you know what he pilgrimage to Mecca was for Mohammad?
Quote:
It's fine and dandy to anyone with an ounce of reason as well. Being a Christian doesn't mean you have to forfeit reason.
And since you say Christianity is unreasonable, that's all that matters.
Quote:
And yet you do just that.
Is there anything else you'd like to tell me about myself, Miss Cleo? First you try telling me that I never question or re-evaluate my beliefs, even though you don't know what my beliefs are, and I'm pretty sure I remember doing exactly that ... Maybe you know my lucky lotto numbers for this week? I won't succeed as a professional pole-vaulter? Patenting my idea for a toaster/dishwasher will lead to financial gain? Marry the chubby girl instead of the pretty one because the pretty one only wants me for my penis and the fat one cooks well and will never leave? Please enlighten me!
Quote:
Education, a lot of which is misguided, ignorant, and bigoted.
According to you -- so if it follows the Bible, teaches that faith is important, that believing will let somebody spend eternity in paradise ... and that's "misguided, ignorant, and bigoted".
Oh, well. At least you wait until the end of your post to admit defeat by pulling out "bigot". You had a good run, kid. Maybe next year.
Quote:
A better way would be to show others what Christians do: help those who need it. I'm sure that would send a more powerful message that Limbaugh's hateful vitriol.
Limbaugh ... Are you referring to Rush Limbaugh? You've got to be smart enough to not be referring to Rush Limbaugh while referring to Christian witnessing, missions, outreach programs, and education. You've got to be smart enough to know that Rush Limbaugh is a political commentator, not a religious one. You've got to be that smart. You must be referring to another Limbaugh, of which I have heard nothing.
