Religions - Your Opinion

[Jeremy]

i find it hard to believe in something that i cant see most of my day i have a person coming up to me telling me that the world will be saved and that the lord will come and save us from this and i know someone who gave their whole life to this and they never been the same since and that what were they told to be like this giving up everything for something we know nothing about

the thing is with me is that if this is all true in someway then why hasnt something been done yet why hasnt this being come down and saved us in this time when help is need people and getting killed people and losing homes families people fighting getting hurt and all these viruses and sickness in the world

The Bible specifically states that it's not what you see, it's faith. He doesn't want to show himself. He'd much rather get someone to honestly believe in him without seeing him because that shows your commitment. If we all saw him, it would be much too easy. He really wants to pick out the good souls to come and be in heaven with him. Not the ones that will only "believe it when they see it".

[RagnaToad]

The Bible specifically states that it's not what you see, it's faith. He doesn't want to show himself. He'd much rather get someone to honestly believe in him without seeing him because that shows your commitment. If we all saw him, it would be much too easy. He really wants to pick out the good souls to come and be in heaven with him. Not the ones that will only "believe it when they see it".

Here you are claiming that only people who believe in God get to 'go to heaven', while acting like the most righteous person on earth.

Isn't it un-christian to say only people like you deserve eternal happiness? (Cause I assume that's what you mean by 'heaven'.)

[Jeremy]

Here you are claiming that only people who believe in God get to 'go to heaven', while acting like the most righteous person on earth.

Isn't it un-christian to say only people like you deserve eternal happiness? (Cause I assume that's what you mean by 'heaven'.)

Yes. Only devoted Christians go to heaven.

[RagnaToad]

Yes. Only devoted Christians go to heaven.

I'm not even going to respond to that, as I don't believe in 'heaven'. But isn't the christian message: love the friend, the stranger and the enemy? Isn't it all about kindness?

You are the embodiment of people who blindly follow things they think are in the Bible...

Rules like 'don't have sex before marriage' all come from misinterpretation of the Bible. If you think THAT's what christianity is all about, you're not a good christian. Not remótely.

And STOP double posting...

[GypsyElder]

Yes. Only devoted Christians go to heaven.

To say this would imply that everyone should be Christian, and in my mind is wrong.This is basically saying everyone else who is not will go to Hell, which I don't think is true. I would say devoted people, more like. (to God I mean, because I do belive in him) are you telling me that because I am not Christian I too will go to hell eventhough I DO believe in God?? (pshhh!)

[Infernaeus]

I am a Roman Catholic (sort of) and a fan of the works of Soren Kierkegaard and Carl Jung, so take that for what you will.

I fully concede that religion, and mine in particular, seems incredible and absurd from a good freethinker's rational point of view. To me it is something that can't be explained and basing my beliefs in reason always lead to them crashing down. It wasn't until I decided that I believed based on the power of the absurd, subjectively rooting it in the passions and not logic, did I find peace with that. Spirituality has been a never ending experience for me in growing. The man who brought Buddhism to America subscribed to the idea that "All paths lead to God," or basically that no matter what any of us is doing we are all growing and experiencing what we need to. I try and meditate in the zazen style everyday after prayer and heartily enjoy listening to and reading things by Thich Nhat Hanh. The more I read various books by people of all walks I find that there are underlying spiritual principles which never change despite the different religions they are found in. And through practicing these principles I am of the opinion that they are found everywhere for good reason. I feel that religion and/or spirituality gives a great many people all over the world stability and purpose in there lives.

So in closing, I think religion is just fine.

[nix]

I am a Roman Catholic (sort of) and a fan of the works of Soren Kierkegaard and Carl Jung, so take that for what you will.

I fully concede that religion, and mine in particular, seems incredible and absurd from a good freethinker's rational point of view. To me it is something that can't be explained and basing my beliefs in reason always lead to them crashing down. It wasn't until I decided that I believed based on the power of the absurd, subjectively rooting it in the passions and not logic, did I find peace with that. Spirituality has been a never ending experience for me in growing. The man who brought Buddhism to America subscribed to the idea that "All paths lead to God," or basically that no matter what any of us is doing we are all growing and experiencing what we need to. I try and meditate in the zazen style everyday after prayer and heartily enjoy listening to and reading things by Thich Nhat Hanh. The more I read various books by people of all walks I find that there are underlying spiritual principles which never change despite the different religions they are found in. And through practicing these principles I am of the opinion that they are found everywhere for good reason. I feel that religion and/or spirituality gives a great many people all over the world stability and purpose in there lives.

So in closing, I think religion is just fine.

Nice post, but "I think religion is just fine" even though it is the causer of most wars and the reason why this world is not in one unity?

We all know religion is the basis for one persons stability/purpose, but as a mass it helps do nothing but cause problems.

Religion would only work in my eyes if people kept it to themselves and stopped knocking on peoples doors trying to convert people.

I myself cant accept what cant be prooven, until then it is its just a BS lie.

[Infernaeus]

Nice post, but "I think religion is just fine" even though it is the causer of most wars and the reason why this world is not in one unity?

Wars are a part of human nature, and we attach all kinds of reasons to them, but the removal of religion would not remove wars or genocide or any of those travesties. Most wars have been caused by a number of very practical reasons, not religious ones. Greed, fear, and envy keep us from being a unified race of human beings, I think, and not religions. The only reason religion shows the signs of these character flaws is because we structured these religions, and we are these religions. So, just as we have flaws so too do our organizations.

Religion would only work in my eyes if people kept it to themselves and stopped knocking on peoples doors trying to convert people.

Yes, I think that spirituality is a completely individual experience, and if religions are there to help us with spiritual growth then they should be there for those who seek them, they shouldn't seek people and try to add to their congregation.

[Freya]

I think religion can be blessing AND curse.
Blessing: I have a good friend who had a very difficult time last summer. He really was all sad and didn't see any good things anymore. I think he had even given up on everything. But then, somehow, he rapidly changed as he chose a religion for himself and believed in God. And he became happier again through believing.
That's why I think that religion can be a real blessing: If you're feeling down and don't know a way out of the dark, you can pray to God. I'm quite sure that God won't destroy all the sorrows within you in one hit, but just believing that there is someone you can rely on gives you strength.
Curse: I think it has already been mentioned many times, but I don't understand wars due to religions either. Perhaps it's a bit harsh of me.. but aren't we all believing in the same God? Why so many differences? All we seek is salvation and help. So why don't we stick together and let each other live peacefully with their own belief? I just don't get it. .,.
Last schoolyear in religion we talked about religious wars and we tried to find an answer WHY that has to happen and HOW we can change something. We didn't really find an answer to the last question. It is totally naive of me to say that we all believe in the same God and that we can end the wars that easily. I somehow even understand how they feel, but I'd say it's righteous. .,. They want to be right, although no one can prove that there are more Gods. (Which sounds very strange, if you ask me...)

Personally, I don't believe in God. And even if I believed in him, I wouldn't say that he's always there for me. IF a God (I don't care which one as for me they're all equal) made the world and the humans, then He should be aware that people are all unique. And I think they all have their own will. That's why so many bad things can happen. Hmm.. it's false to say that God doesn't care about His people, but he gave them the Earth as a place to live, so why should He interfere?

[GHOSTED]

Religion Never Really made sense to me. My mother tells me That I should Love and Rescpet Jesus and stuff, but I cant really Respect Jesus OR God. Religion is the answer to Questions people can not answer. They let Religion Run there lives, teach them, show them, and take them to there death. Religion can be see as the base of Life and Death, But I see it as nothing more then something to argue over.

[RagnaToad]

Religion Never Really made sense to me. My mother tells me That I should Love and Rescpet Jesus and stuff, but I cant really Respect Jesus OR God. Religion is the answer to Questions people can not answer. They let Religion Run there lives, teach them, show them, and take them to there death. Religion can be see as the base of Life and Death, But I see it as nothing more then something to argue over.

If you don't 'believe' in God and don't read the Bible but respect your fellow man, try to be a friendly person and help out people once in a while, you're still a better christian than most of those conservative nutjobs.

And what's wrong with finding answers in religion? If people can draw strength and confidence from it, I say let'em be.

As for my religion:
I believe in love.

[GHOSTED]

If you don't 'believe' in God and don't read the Bible but respect your fellow man, try to be a friendly person and help out people once in a while, you're still a better christian than most of those conservative nutjobs.

And what's wrong with finding answers in religion? If people can draw strength and confidence from it, I say let'em be.

As for my religion:
I believe in love.

I help those who Need it when Ever I can. I do what must be done, and how I do it is my own bussiness to be honest, no trying to sound like an asshole.
And regarding my finding answers in Religion, I just think it's easyer to find answers within your self then with in the Bible. Dont take offence to my opinion, after all, it's just my thoughts on Religion.

[GHOSTED]

Religion Never Really made sense to me. My mother tells me That I should Love and Rescpet Jesus and stuff, but I cant really Respect Jesus OR God. Religion is the answer to Questions people can not answer. They let Religion Run there lives, teach them, show them, and take them to there death. Religion can be see as the base of Life and Death, But I see it as nothing more then something to argue over.

Read the last part...Thats one reason I dont mess with Religion. This is all that will ever come from Religion. I have nothing againts people reading the bible. I just dont think it serves much point for mordern days.

[RagnaToad]

Relax, I'm not easily offended.

But do you have a problem with people finding inspiration/strength/whatever in a book?

Don't tell me you have never reflected about yourself and the world after reading a book, watching a movie or talking to someone.

[GHOSTED]

To be honest, I have. But I dont think a book written so long ago is worth much in the modern world. I'd much rather take in from a person who knows the world better then a book written so long ago.

[RagnaToad]

That I don't get.

So exactly what is the expiry date on books that can be an inspiration?

1 year?
a century?
anything younger than shakespeare is ok?
1000 years?

[GHOSTED]

lol, When the world gives up my Friend. Which was around 2001, in my opinion. To be serious, the world has changed a lot since the Bible was written. The world is in a time of depression. The People we put our power into ( The Us Goverment) Know nothing about the world, only about what they can do to fix things for them selves. Church Gods Goverment.

[RagnaToad]

You're not really making any sense, nor are you answering my question.

Why is it so wrong for people to read the Bible and be inspired by the stories to live a better life and reflect about themselves?

I'm not talking about governments or the Church at all, so I'm not sure why you brought that up.

And you're not allowed to be inspired by stuff that was written before 2001? That is both ridiculous and impossible.

[RagnaToad]

Ummm.

You're implying that being kind to one another and following an example like some Jewish fellow called Jesus of Nazareth, who helped young delinquants and stuff is not relevant anymore?

That's kind of harsh.

[GHOSTED]

The whole story of the Bible is fine, just not what it teachs. In the event your next post says "have you read the bible" The answer is no. And to play ahead of time. I dont plan on ever reading it. I dont need god in my life.

[Sasquatch]

The whole story of the Bible is fine, just not what it teachs. In the event your next post says "have you read the bible" The answer is no. And to play ahead of time. I dont plan on ever reading it. I dont need god in my life.

So you don't need it, don't want it, don't have any idea what it's about, but still don't like it. Kind of aggorant and ignorant, don't you think?

But I can say that I have read the Bible in the past ( I wouldn't say the whole thing..) ...

So you've read it, but you haven't read it?

I hate when Bible thumpers come knocking on my door trying to convert me

Damn those people! They believe that their beliefs will save them from an eternity in Hell, and they have the audacity to come try to save me from it too? What jerks!

Whats the point?? think about It if someone came up to you and tried to tell you that your religion is false would you listen?? of course not!! so why would someone else?

Because some people aren't like you, and some people DO listen. They do things like, say, ask "why". They usually come back around to the beliefs they held before, but still. It's very ignorant to stereotype Christians with the assumption that they never question or re-evaluate their own beliefs.

Besides, I'm all for love and peace, doesn't that make me a good christian even though I say I'm not one?

What makes you a good person does not necessarily make you a good Christian. Christianity is a religion of FAITH, not works. According to Christianity, it's not what you do, it's what you believe that's important.

If you're trying to say that following the Bible is the only way to happiness, and that being friendly in general, without following all those (here it comes) rules is a waste of time, you're no better than muslim fundamentalists who think everyone that doesn't live by the Koran is the devil.

Except for the whole not-wishing-death-on-nonbelievers thing, you might be a little closer.

Rules. Yes, he wants you to follow the rules he gave us. Such as no sex before marriage, not using his name in vain, cursing, and other sorts of Sins.

If you have any knowledge or understanding of the Bible, I'd like you to point out passages prohibiting sex before marriage and cursing. Cursing is considered generally improper and dictated by society, not religion.

Here you are claiming that only people who believe in God get to 'go to heaven', while acting like the most righteous person on earth.

It's not God, it's Jesus, according to Christianity. And whether you think he's self-righteous or not, according to the Bible, it's the belief in salvation by God through Jesus that gets people out of Hell -- not what they do or how "righteous" they are.

Isn't it un-christian to say only people like you deserve eternal happiness? (Cause I assume that's what you mean by 'heaven'.)

No, it's very Christian to say that only people who believe in Christianity get into Heaven. There's nothing to "deserve" or "earn" -- NOBODY deserves to get into Heaven. Under Christian belief, faith doesn't "get you into Heaven", it gets you out of Hell. Nobody is "good" enough to pay for all the bad things they've done, so it's only through acceptance of Jesus's sacrifice (the only one who did nothing bad) that we can get out of Hell, the place where we would pay for our sins.

This is basically saying everyone else who is not [Christian] will go to Hell, which I don't think is true. ... are you telling me that because I am not Christian I too will go to hell eventhough I DO believe in God?? (pshhh!)

That's what the Bible says.

Have you heard of the concept of the Abrahamic faiths? Both Christianity and Islam are descendants of Judaism. Jesus is a prophet in the Islamic tradition.

Islam branched off Judaism, not Christianity, but they both branched from Judaism, if that's what you're referring to. Islam was founded well after Christianity, but Islam understands Jesus the same way Judaism does -- not the Messiah.

Islam was founded as a way to "go back" to the original Judaism, because Mohammad believed that the original teachings and beliefs had been corrupted by those who controlled it.

So while Christianity could be considered the child of Judaism, Islam would be the attempted clone that turned out all screwed up.

Yahweh, Allah, and the Christian God (the Father), are the same being.

In theory, yes. According to how Islam interprets their god and how Judaism and Christianity view their god (God), hell no. The God of the Torah and the Bible asks much, much different of his followers than the god of the Qur'an.

Mohammad did not teach the Arabs to believe in an entirely new deity, so he was clearly building on the Judeo-Christian tradition.

First -- it wasn't a Judeo-Christian tradition at all. It didn't branch off Christianity, it branched off Judaism. And second, Mohammad incorporated some old beliefs and traditions with his new stuff, and also included some pagan rituals, to "stay with the times", if you will. The sacred rocks and crap like that.

Personally, I'm a liberal Catholic. I believe in Heaven, but I'm not so sure about Hell, and I believe that anyone can go to Heaven.

So you claim to be Catholic, but you don't follow the Bible ... do you follow the Catholic Church, or just do your own thing?

Jesus said that to love our neighbours and to love God are the most important lessons. That summarises Jesus' message. But if Jesus thinks that just because someone didn't get all these special oils rubbed on their forehead that they can't be saved, then that's not really loving one's neighbour, is it?

Being saved is just that -- SAVED. It's not "getting to go to a good place", it's "not having to go to Hell". The only thing somebody has to do is believe, and that's not easy enough?

Sending Muslims to Hell for not believing in the Christian concept of (what is really the same) religion is not loving them.

It's not the same religion, not at all. Nobody would be "sent", they just wouldn't be saved from it -- we're all headed that way anyway, and the only way out of it is to accept Jesus. If it was a situation of "not loving them", there would be no way for them to get out of Hell.

Provided people don't kill and rape and do stuff that most countries criminalise, then you'll be all good.

According to the Bible, it's not what you do, it's what your believe. Faith, not works. Murderers and rapists can repent and accept Jesus, and they'll end up in Heaven.

Something I've heard before that makes perfect sense, is that there will be a lot of surprised people in Hell, and a lot of surprised people in Heaven. (Some will think, "I was a good person," while they're in Hell, and others, "I was a Christian, but not a good one" while they're in Heaven.

Remember that Christianity doesn't have a high horse. In the Crusades we killed tens of thousands of Jews in the Pogroms, and tens of thousands of Muslims in the Holy Land.

That was the Catholic Church. And let's not forget that the Holy Land was taken over through force by Muslims, and the Crusades were about taking them back.

When a religion is founded and its FIRST movement is a military invasion, it kind of tells you something.

The Bible does have lessons, Rags. Just like how one can learn from a textbook. The lessons however are largely narratives, and need to be placed in context and read critically, not literally.

That is all fine and dandy for people who don't claim to be Christian.

I don't believe in conversion. I think forcing one's beliefs onto another is wrong. Especially because religion and culture are linked. To convert someone would be to dislocate them from their ancestry and culture. Choosing to convert is a lot different though.

At some points in history, forceful conversion happened (for prettymuch all religions), which of course was wrong. At this point, however, at least Christianity does missions and outreach programs that help spread Christianity through education.

[Alpha]

So you've read it, but you haven't read it?

Oh so it's not acceptable to skip over all the genealogical crap in Genesis which are just lists of names? No, I have to read every word for myself before I'm saved? And what of those who can't read? Or are told what to believe and end up doing everything (by your definition of) right?

Damn those people! They believe that their beliefs will save them from an eternity in Hell, and they have the audacity to come try to save me from it too? What jerks!

The problem is that anyone who has a faith has a similar belief. Muslims believe the exact same thing, but I'm going to assume if they came to your door, you would either get very angry or try and counter-convert. If you do the 'Christian' thing (and I hope you would), and love them by hearing them out and not criticising their religion, you wouldn't convert, would you? So what was the point of the whole exercise? By zealous Christians most of the time, and by zealous Muslims in this example?

Because some people aren't like you, and some people DO listen. They do things like, say, ask "why". They usually come back around to the beliefs they held before, but still. It's very ignorant to stereotype Christians with the assumption that they never question or re-evaluate their own beliefs.

Yes, that is true. But it seems that you aren't really evaluating the "God loves everybody" thing beyond your own scope of "everybody" (i.e. every Christian).

What makes you a good person does not necessarily make you a good Christian. Christianity is a religion of FAITH, not works. According to Christianity, it's not what you do, it's what you believe that's important.

You sound like a pre-Reformation Catholic. They sure had faith in those indulgences. Luther came and said that we needed good works as well as faith.

By your argument, I could rape and murder, as long as, in my mind, I was a good Christian who had a tremendous faith in Jesus to save me? WORKS are the most important part of getting your salvation. It's not enough just to believe. Did Jesus spend all day praying, or did he actually help people? I'm not giving a Bible reference here except for the whole New Testament.

Except for the whole not-wishing-death-on-nonbelievers thing, you might be a little closer.

You're marginalising the world's second-largest religion down to fundamentalists. I know plenty of Muslims. I went to my University's open-prayer-room day two weeks ago. I told them I was a Catholic and that I was interested in learning about what they believed, though I'm happy with my faith. They explained what all the praying was about, and some of their beliefs and festivals. I don't recall the bit where they tried to kill me for my "non-belief". In fact, they gave me lunch.

Besides, plenty of fundamentalist Christians do believe that non-believers must die. Isn't the Rapture an even more extreme version of the same thing? Not only will non-believers die, but they will suffer eternally.

What happened to forgiveness?

It's not God, it's Jesus, according to Christianity. And whether you think he's self-righteous or not, according to the Bible, it's the belief in salvation by God through Jesus that gets people out of Hell -- not what they do or how "righteous" they are.

You prefix everything with "according to the Bible". Sure, that's a good way to live, but it's a little extreme in many cases. If a non-Christian was to emulate Mother Theresa, would they go to Hell? That's your argument. Think for yourself just a tiny bit. Does that sound right?

No, it's very Christian to say that only people who believe in Christianity get into Heaven. There's nothing to "deserve" or "earn" -- NOBODY deserves to get into Heaven. Under Christian belief, faith doesn't "get you into Heaven", it gets you out of Hell. Nobody is "good" enough to pay for all the bad things they've done, so it's only through acceptance of Jesus's sacrifice (the only one who did nothing bad) that we can get out of Hell, the place where we would pay for our sins.

Hell is the place where we "pay for our sins". Is it sinful to do everything Jesus said about works, but not believe in Him? I thought sin was based on action? Sure, there's the whole "Original Sin" thing, but even Christians have that their entire lives, so that can't be the reason for going to Hell for non-belief.

That's what the Bible says.

The Bible says a lot of things. But the Old Testament was originally a verbal tradition extending a very long time, and was only codified relatively recently in it's history. Who's to say we should interpret that literally? Creationism... fail. You only need to go to one geology lecture to see why. 6000 years? As if, mate. This is only one example of why the Bible (in particular the O.T.) should not be read literally. The New testament is a bit more accurate, but it has missing books, dodgy translations, was largely written several decades after the events, and occasionally has conflicting representations of the same events.

It is full of moral messages, and I think if more people lived by it, then we would be better off. But we don't have to be Christian (and we shouldn't be fundamentalists) to do this. The moral messages do exist apart from Christianity. Just because someone is not a Christian does not mean they are evil.

Islam branched off Judaism, not Christianity, but they both branched from Judaism, if that's what you're referring to.

Yes, that's what I said. Islam and Christianity have the exact same base - Judaism. Islam was several hundred years after Christianity.

Islam was founded well after Christianity, but Islam understands Jesus the same way Judaism does -- not the Messiah.

But their conception of God (the Christian 'Father') is the same. The Torah is the Old Testament (though it contains additional books), but Islam is significantly different. But my point is, they worship the same deity.

Islam was founded as a way to "go back" to the original Judaism, because Mohammad believed that the original teachings and beliefs had been corrupted by those who controlled it.

So while Christianity could be considered the child of Judaism, Islam would be the attempted clone that turned out all screwed up.

Islam is all screwed up? And Christian fundamentalists believe that the world is 6000 years old. Who is screwed up sorry?

Islam is, for the most part, like most religions, a peaceful faith. Yes, it can become violent when linked to nationalism. Osama wishes death to America based on the fact of American troops being based in Saudi Arabia. If you are not familiar with this fact, let me know, and I'll quote Osama's own words (it's in my Religious Studies textbook).

In theory, yes. According to how Islam interprets their god and how Judaism and Christianity view their god (God), hell no. The God of the Torah and the Bible asks much, much different of his followers than the god of the Qur'an.

I don't deny that. If their God asked the same things, then they would be the same religion. But it's still the same God.

First -- it wasn't a Judeo-Christian tradition at all. It didn't branch off Christianity, it branched off Judaism. And second, Mohammad incorporated some old beliefs and traditions with his new stuff, and also included some pagan rituals, to "stay with the times", if you will. The sacred rocks and crap like that.

It was a Judeo-Christian tradition. Explain how Jesus and Mary both turn up in the Koran? Jesus isn't in the Torah (unless, as Christians believe, Jesus is the Messiah). Ergo, it was both Judaism and Christianity that Islam sprouted from, though mostly Judaism, I'll concede.

So you claim to be Catholic, but you don't follow the Bible ... do you follow the Catholic Church, or just do your own thing?

Catholics gain inspiration from both the Bible and from tradition (i.e. The Holy See). Pope Benedict has said that belief in the Immaculate Conception isn't a necessary belief to be a Catholic. My R.E. teacher in my final year of High School certainly didn't believe it. And considering that Mary would've been about 12 or 13 when she had Jesus, she says it is preposterous to suggest that she wouldn't have had more children.

Simply put, the Catholic Church is based in the Bible, but interpretations can and do vary. It's called liberalism (to an extent).

Being saved is just that -- SAVED. It's not "getting to go to a good place", it's "not having to go to Hell". The only thing somebody has to do is believe, and that's not easy enough?

No, it's very difficult. Especially for one who has been brought up under a different tradition their entire life. Would you convert to Christianity if you were born and raised a Muslim or a Hindu? You're asking them to change their whole life - a fairly big ask. And what of those who have never heard the Good News? Tribes in the Amazon is a fair stereotype. Do they go to Heaven or Hell? I'd like to think Heaven, just like unbaptised babies.

It's not the same religion, not at all. Nobody would be "sent", they just wouldn't be saved from it -- we're all headed that way anyway, and the only way out of it is to accept Jesus. If it was a situation of "not loving them", there would be no way for them to get out of Hell.

Do you know that the only way out is through Jesus? Sure, I think it is a "way out", but I don't and can't believe that it is the only one. I know plenty of people who are not Christian, but are probably 'better Christians' than me.

According to the Bible, it's not what you do, it's what your believe. Faith, not works. Murderers and rapists can repent and accept Jesus, and they'll end up in Heaven.

And people can tend the sick, shelter the poor, and comfort the lonely and end up in Hell? I'd say they were prime candidates to sit with the Lamb.

Something I've heard before that makes perfect sense, is that there will be a lot of surprised people in Hell, and a lot of surprised people in Heaven. (Some will think, "I was a good person," while they're in Hell, and others, "I was a Christian, but not a good one" while they're in Heaven.

Ask yourself. Do you want to accept that?

That was the Catholic Church. And let's not forget that the Holy Land was taken over through force by Muslims, and the Crusades were about taking them back.

It was the Christians who were not of the Eastern or Coptic churches. I.e the forerunners of Catholics and Protestants. And the Catholic Church wasn't chased out of the Holy Land by Muslims, no they established themselves in Europe (St Peter). Pope Urban thought it would be kool to have them, but it was sort of unprovoked.

When a religion is founded and its FIRST movement is a military invasion, it kind of tells you something.

It tells you that three religions share the same holy sites, and that there are understandable tensions.

That is all fine and dandy for people who don't claim to be Christian.

It's fine and dandy to anyone with an ounce of reason as well. Being a Christian doesn't mean you have to forfeit reason. To quote you:

It's very ignorant to stereotype Christians with the assumption that they never question or re-evaluate their own beliefs.

And yet you do just that.

At some points in history, forceful conversion happened (for prettymuch all religions), which of course was wrong. At this point, however, at least Christianity does missions and outreach programs that help spread Christianity through education.

Education, a lot of which is misguided, ignorant, and bigoted. A better way would be to show others what Christians do: help those who need it. I'm sure that would send a more powerful message that Limbaugh's hateful vitriol.

[RagnaToad]

Well what does the Bible 'teach' you?

It doesn't teach anything. It's a book. The first part is just a copy of the Jewish Thora, the second part is a book full of stories about Jesus of Nazareth, that contains ideas of peace and kindness.

[Jeremy]

Well what does the Bible 'teach' you?

It doesn't teach anything. It's a book. The first part is just a copy of the Jewish Thora, the second part is a book full of stories about Jesus of Nazareth, that contains ideas of peace and kindness.

Hahahaha what? It teaches you everything you need to know about life. Believe in God and he promises to give you everything you need and all of the riches you desire (if you follow the rules of the Bible). Without knowing about the bible you won't get the happiness you want. Think about it, all of those Atheist actors and singers out there get tons of money, but do you really think they're happy? No, they get followed around constantly and have nothing but a dramatic life. I'd much rather be the guy that has a beautiful house and a great family with other kinds of riches in life than to be the TV star. If you read the Bible, and love and believe in God, you'll have all of these things. The Bible isn't just a "Book" and yes, it does teach you things.

[GypsyElder]

I try not to label myself as one specific religion because I don't really know about religon myself. I'm not a huge religous person that goes to church everyday, and reads the Bible. But I can say that I have read the Bible in the past ( I wouldn't say the whole thing..) and I do beleive in god,probably because that is the way I was brought up and nothing will change my mind.I am religous to an extent. Growing up I was raised Catholic,however I know nothing specific to the Catholic tradition,like for example,not eating meat on certin days or puting black ash stuff on my forehead or whatever...I don't argue or care about what religion is because everyone's religion is different and everyone thinks they're right when we know nothing.And when I say that I mean everyone will believe what they will and It is point less to fight over it, and sad.

I hate when Bible thumpers come knocking on my door trying to convert me, or when I am In public and they try to argue with me and tell me I am wrong.I know their intensions are all good but pointless,because the conversation always goes nowhere.

Whats the point?? think about It if someone came up to you and tried to tell you that your religion is false would you listen?? of course not!! so why would someone else?

[RagnaToad]

think about It if someone came up to you and tried to tell you that your religion is false would you listen?? of course not!! so why would someone else?

I was thinking the exact same thing only yesterday. People who want to 'make someone believe' in whatever they think they should believe are not thinking it through. Like you said, I would love to say to those people 'Is there any chance that I could convince you that there is nog God?' (for example). Obviously, they'd say no. Besides, I'm all for love and peace, doesn't that make me a good christian even though I say I'm not one?

It's a funny world.

Hahahaha what? It teaches you everything you need to know about life. Believe in God and he promises to give you everything you need and all of the riches you desire (if you follow the rules of the Bible). Without knowing about the bible you won't get the happiness you want. Think about it, all of those Atheist actors and singers out there get tons of money, but do you really think they're happy? No, they get followed around constantly and have nothing but a dramatic life. I'd much rather be the guy that has a beautiful house and a great family with other kinds of riches in life than to be the TV star. If you read the Bible, and love and believe in God, you'll have all of these things. The Bible isn't just a "Book" and yes, it does teach you things.

This post makes no sense on so many levels, but the use of the word 'rules' is just scary... If you're trying to say that following the Bible is the only way to happiness, and that being friendly in general, without following all those (here it comes) rules is a waste of time, you're no better than muslim fundamentalists who think everyone that doesn't live by the Koran is the devil.

[Jeremy]

This post makes no sense on so many levels, but the use of the word 'rules' is just scary...

What? How does it not make sense? From a Atheist's point of view of course it may not. But you need to open your mind a little bit and not be so decided on not believing in Him or the Bible. Rules. Yes, he wants you to follow the rules he gave us. Such as no sex before marriage, not using his name in vain, cursing, and other sorts of Sins. He has the right to give us rules. He was the one that made the earth and our lives in the first place. If I created something i'd want others to follow the rules while they're in it too.

[RagnaToad]

I didn't feel like explaining all that stuff to that guy, so thanks, Alpha. You said almost exactly what I would have said.

Also, I know what you mean with the Bible 'teaching' us something. There's a moral. But I was just trying to point out that you don't have to believe anything or follow any rules by reading a book.

You're free to draw strength or inspiration from the stories as you please.

[GypsyElder]

So you've read it, but you haven't read it?

Like I said before i'm not a huge ( go to church everyday ) person,my point in that was i'ts not like I haven't had some influence from the bible,it's exactly as it says: I havent read the whole thing.

Damn those people! They believe that their beliefs will save them from an eternity in Hell, and they have the audacity to come try to save me from it too? What jerks!

First of all, I already stated that I know they're intensions are good. Once again,would you actually change your religous beliefs because someone came to your door telling you all the falts in your religon?? Of course you're gonna listen to what they have to say, but in the end nothing changes you're just being nice and taking to their generosity by hearing them out.

Because some people aren't like you, and some people DO listen. They do things like, say, ask "why". They usually come back around to the beliefs they held before, but still. It's very ignorant to stereotype Christians with the assumption that they never question or re-evaluate their own beliefs.

Who's stereotyping???? that was general, I never said Christians. I'm sure SOME people may get a ray of light from there little visit,but for the most part it nothing, again...

That's what the Bible says.

Don't you think God would much rather have you believe in him to the fullest and and have faith in him,showing your commitment, rather than worry about some name you slaped on to yourself ?? I don't have to be Christian to do that.
like jeremy said earlier:

The Bible specifically states that it's not what you see, it's faith. He doesn't want to show himself. He'd much rather get someone to honestly believe in him without seeing him because that shows your commitment. If we all saw him, it would be much too easy. He really wants to pick out the good souls to come and be in heaven with him. Not the ones that will only "believe it when they see it".

isn't this exactly what I am doing...???

You're doing what every other religion does,telling everyone else they're wrong,while you float by in your ship of right .That's exactly what it means so say: Only Christians will go to Heaven,and Thats exactly the crap I get when people come to my door too,and you make it seem like I should feel bad for not wanting to hear them out...Teh!

[Sasquatch]

Like I said before i'm not a huge ( go to church everyday ) person,my point in that was i'ts not like I haven't had some influence from the bible,it's exactly as it says: I havent read the whole thing.

So you haven't even read the holy book of the religion you have so many problems with. I'm just getting the situation straight here. Is that correct? Those damn "Bible-thumpers" should just keep to themselves, it's wrong to say that non-Christians won't end up in Heaven even though that's what Christianity states, etc. ...

First of all, I already stated that I know they're intensions are good. Once again,would you actually change your religous beliefs because someone came to your door telling you all the falts in your religon?? Of course you're gonna listen to what they have to say, but in the end nothing changes you're just being nice and taking to their generosity by hearing them out.

If somebody presents a convincing argument for ANY issue, I hear it out -- not out of courtesy, but out of curiosity. I want to know more about it. And if they present a good, informative argument, they might convince me to check it out for myself, which might lead me to change my stance. If I don't change it, I will come back to it with a stronger belief in it. This has happened to me in regards to religious, political, ethical, and every other type of issue.

Who's stereotyping???? that was general, I never said Christians.

In that case, it's very ignorant to claim that people of any specific religion will never question or re-evaluate their own beliefs. Of any belief, period, not just religions.

Don't you think God would much rather have you believe in him to the fullest and and have faith in him,showing your commitment, rather than worry about some name you slaped on to yourself ??

That depends on what religion you follow. According to Christianity, what's important is faith that Jesus is the Son of God and gave His life to pay for our sin.

You're doing what every other religion does,telling everyone else they're wrong,while you float by in your ship of right .

Where did I claim that one religion was right and others were wrong, or that I belonged to or followed any specific religion at all? Please point that out to me, would you?

That's exactly what it means so say: Only Christians will go to Heaven,and Thats exactly the crap I get when people come to my door too,and you make it seem like I should feel bad for not wanting to hear them out...Teh!

Not bad. If you feel that you're right and don't have to listen to anybody else's beliefs, you do that. You don't have to listen to anybody else -- you believe that your beliefs are right, and you're going to stick to them, no matter who tries to talk to you about their beliefs. Of course, this is the same thing that you have a problem with Christians/Christianity for -- believing that their way is the only right way -- but it's different for YOUR way, right?

Oh so it's not acceptable to skip over all the genealogical crap in Genesis which are just lists of names?

In Genesis? ... That's two chapters. You can't honestly be arrogant enough to assume that somebody is referring to two chapters of genealogy when they admit to not having read all of the Bible.

No, I have to read every word for myself before I'm saved?

Not at all -- you don't have to have read any of the Bible before you become Christian, if you hear the message from other people. Many, many people became Christians without ever having touched a Bible.

The problem is that anyone who has a faith has a similar belief. Muslims believe the exact same thing, but I'm going to assume if they came to your door, you would either get very angry or try and counter-convert.

You'd assume wrong. Of course everybody who has faith in anything believes themselves to be right.

If you do the 'Christian' thing (and I hope you would), and love them by hearing them out and not criticising their religion ...

Really? It's "the Christian" thing to be involved in a discussion of religion with those who do not follow the same beliefs and never bring up how Christianity is "right"?

... you wouldn't convert, would you?

Probably not, but who knows? A lot of people convert because of neighborhood preaching.

So what was the point of the whole exercise? By zealous Christians most of the time, and by zealous Muslims in this example?

What's wrong with being zealous about any belief, as long as you're peaceful about it? All too many ignorant people use "zealous" and "fundamentalist" as insults. And the point of the whole exercise would be to spread your belief -- even if you didn't "convert" anybody, you still brought it up, so they might think about it later, consider it, maybe want to learn more about it, etc.

On that note, what's the point of your post to me, or this part of this post, that addresses you, if we both know that at this point, neither of us has changed the other's mind?

Yes, that is true. But it seems that you aren't really evaluating the "God loves everybody" thing beyond your own scope of "everybody" (i.e. every Christian).

Where in this thread have I declared my beliefs?

Still, according to Christianity, God loves everybody, but everybody has sinned, which means the only place they deserve to go is Hell. It's being "saved" through faith in Jesus that gets believers into Heaven. It's not an issue of love at all.

Say, you have a kid. You tell that kid that the stove is hot. You tell him again that the stove is hot, and that he/she should stay away from it. You tell him again that the stove is hot, and it will burn him/her. You tell him/her many more times. But you don't control the kid, and sure enough, the kid puts his/her hand on he burner and gets the crap burned out of him. According to your illogical line of thinking here, that must mean that you don't love that kid.

You sound like a pre-Reformation Catholic.

I don't sound like a Catholic at all.

They sure had faith in those indulgences. Luther came and said that we needed good works as well as faith.

... The indulgences were Catholic, not Christian. Luther's problem was with the Church, and with clergy, doing whatever they wanted to and justifying it through the Bible, then claiming that certain things -- like PAYING THE CHURCH -- would help "repay" a person's debt of sin. You do something bad, you pray a few times (to Mary, something totally against Christianity, but that's another subject) and give the Church some money and you'll be forgiven. THAT is what Luther's 95 Theses were about -- following the Bible and not the Church.

By your argument, I could rape and murder, as long as, in my mind, I was a good Christian who had a tremendous faith in Jesus to save me?

That would be between you and God, not up to me. According to Christianity, sinners -- whether they lied once or they murdered a dozen people -- are forgiven through Jesus. But you could not Biblically justify rape and murder, so though you could do those things and still repent, it would be God's judgment of whether or not you were serious.

WORKS are the most important part of getting your salvation.

Not in Christianity, they're not.

It's not enough just to believe.

... it is in Christianity. See, this is where it would have helped to have read the Bible.

Did Jesus spend all day praying, or did he actually help people?

Jesus wasn't a Christian, He was a Jew.

I'm not giving a Bible reference here except for the whole New Testament.

PLEASE DO. Please. I want a Bible verse that says that -- like you said -- "WORKS are the most important part of getting your salvation. [sic]" I want a verse. I mean, here, I'll show you some verses that say the exact opposite ...

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. -Ephesians 2:8,9

When He saw their faith, He said to him, “Man, your sins are forgiven you.” -Luke 5:20

But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”
And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." -Luke 23:42-43

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. -John 3:14-18

Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” -John 6:28-29

But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. -Romans 3:21-26

...

Now, that's a mere fraction of what I found with a simple Google search. I would LOVE for you to post a verse that says the exact opposite -- that works are more important than faith. Honestly, please do. Obviously, you've seen that "the entire New Testament" severely disagrees with your assertion that works are more important than faith, or even comparable ... but let's see what you can find.

You're marginalising the world's second-largest religion down to fundamentalists.

Alright kid, you need to know what "fundamentalist" means. It means those who take something seriously and literally. If you read the Bible and followed exactly what it says, you'd be a fundamentalist Christian. If you read the Torah and followed exactly what it says, you'd be a fundamentalist Jew. If you read the Qur'an and followed exactly what it says, you'd be a fundamentalist Muslim.

So using "fundamentalists" -- those who follow the religion closest -- as a representation of the entire religion itself (not its followers, but the religion) isn't a bad thing.

That having been said, when the Qur'an tells its followers to kill non-believers, you can't say much else about it.

I know plenty of Muslims. I went to my University's open-prayer-room day two weeks ago. I told them I was a Catholic and that I was interested in learning about what they believed, though I'm happy with my faith. They explained what all the praying was about, and some of their beliefs and festivals. I don't recall the bit where they tried to kill me for my "non-belief". In fact, they gave me lunch.

I've encountered the kinds that try to kill me for various reasons, the kinds that try to kill me -- or simply resent me -- because I don't follow Islam, and the kinds that care more about people than what religion they are. Next time you supposedly go to that open prayer session, ask about the verses that detail the slaughtering of infidels. Of course, before you do that, you might want to do a little reading in the Qur'an ... but then, if you claim to be Catholic, you might want to do a lot of reading in the Bible, too.

Besides, plenty of fundamentalist Christians do believe that non-believers must die.

Yes, because you see Christian suicide bombers and terrorists attacking non-Christian civilian groups every week, it seems like, right?

Isn't the Rapture an even more extreme version of the same thing? Not only will non-believers die, but they will suffer eternally.

First of all, even believers will die. Second, there is a HUGE difference between believing that they WILL die (as in, they will die) and believing that they MUST die (as in, we should make them die).

What happened to forgiveness?

In Christianity, it comes with Jesus. Jesus [the] Christ. Hence ... "CHRISTianity".

You prefix everything with "according to the Bible". Sure, that's a good way to live, but it's a little extreme in many cases.

Then don't live like that. You have the freedom to follow whatever religion you choose.

If a non-Christian was to emulate Mother Theresa, would they go to Hell? That's your argument. Think for yourself just a tiny bit. Does that sound right?

I don't make the rules, kid. You want your own rules, star your own religion ... you might as well, seeing as you don't believe Christianity.

Hell is the place where we "pay for our sins". Is it sinful to do everything Jesus said about works, but not believe in Him? I thought sin was based on action? Sure, there's the whole "Original Sin" thing, but even Christians have that their entire lives, so that can't be the reason for going to Hell for non-belief.

First, yes, it is a sin. Second, nobody -- NOBODY -- is perfect, except for Jesus Himself. The Bible says that one sin is enough to keep us out of Heaven -- unless our sins are forgiven, through the only entity who can forgive sin.

The Bible says a lot of things. But the Old Testament was originally a verbal tradition extending a very long time, and was only codified relatively recently in it's history. Who's to say we should interpret that literally?

Christians believe that it was inspired by God -- as in, God made sure it was written correctly. Thus, it would be correct and literal.

Creationism... fail. You only need to go to one geology lecture to see why. 6000 years? As if, mate.

I would love to discuss Creation vs. the religion of Evolutionism with you -- and in doing so, correct your ignorance -- but perhaps another time, in another thread. This isn't the place.

This is only one example of why the Bible (in particular the O.T.) should not be read literally. The New testament is a bit more accurate, but it has missing books, dodgy translations, was largely written several decades after the events, and occasionally has conflicting representations of the same events.

It has "missing books" because the Catholic Church says it has "missing books" -- it also has books that the Catholic Church added. Most translations now are extremely accurate to original texts. Christians believe that it was inspired by God, so it doesn't matter when it was written -- hell, it could have been written before the events took place. While I've seen some sad attempts at pointing out "conflicting representations of the same events", the differences are minor, if existent at all and not simply fabricated or misinterpreted (by the individual).

It is full of moral messages, and I think if more people lived by it, then we would be better off. But we don't have to be Christian (and we shouldn't be fundamentalists) to do this. The moral messages do exist apart from Christianity. Just because someone is not a Christian does not mean they are evil.

So you don't have to be Christian if you don't want, and you don't have to follow the Bible ("fundamentalist") if you don't want. Be a "good person". Live how you want. Do your own thang. Just don't call yourself a Christian when you're obviously not -- or even a Catholic when you're obviously not.

And nobody here said that non-Christians are evil, did they? In fact, I've gone over several times that Christianity states that the major difference between a Christian and a non-Christian -- and the only difference that matters -- is their faith.

But their conception of God (the Christian 'Father') is the same. The Torah is the Old Testament (though it contains additional books), but Islam is significantly different. But my point is, they worship the same deity.

The point is, no they don't. Yahweh and God don't tell their followers to slaughter those who don't believe in them -- not as a general rule, anyway.

Islam is all screwed up?

Yes. When a holy book states that giving one's life during the slaughter of infidels will automatically grant passage into paradise, it's screwed up.

And Christian fundamentalists believe that the world is 6000 years old. Who is screwed up sorry?

Once again, this isn't the time or the place to correct your ignorance -- or your arrogance.

Islam is, for the most part, like most religions, a peaceful faith.

Except for the whole terrorist, suicide bombs, IEDs, slaughtering of infidels, the fact that more than 90% of the conflicts in the last few decades have involved Muslms, etc. etc. ... sure, pretty peaceful.

Yes, it can become violent when linked to nationalism. Osama wishes death to America based on the fact of American troops being based in Saudi Arabia. If you are not familiar with this fact, let me know, and I'll quote Osama's own words (it's in my Religious Studies textbook).

Osama bin Laden also wishes death to America based on the fact that Americans are free to worship who- or whatever they choose, American women show their ankles and are allowed to do things like drive and vote, and that we won't let other Muslim terrorists slaughter every Jew in existence -- which is the stated goal of many Islamic organizations, including some countries.

It was a Judeo-Christian tradition. Explain how Jesus and Mary both turn up in the Koran?

Explain where.

Catholics gain inspiration from both the Bible and from tradition (i.e. The Holy See). Pope Benedict has said that belief in the Immaculate Conception isn't a necessary belief to be a Catholic.

This is why there is a difference between Catholicism and Christianity. Christians follow the holy book of Christianity -- the Bible. Other religions may follow a mix of between the Bible, certain organizations, and appointed leaders, but that would make them non-Christian. And when said appointed leaders openly state that belief in the Bible is not necessary to follow their religion, it's obvious that their religion isn't Christianity.

My R.E. teacher in my final year of High School certainly didn't believe it. And considering that Mary would've been about 12 or 13 when she had Jesus, she says it is preposterous to suggest that she wouldn't have had more children.

It's preposterous to suggest that Mary wouldn't have had more children? Well, let's see ... since Jesus was born in a stable, without a pap smear, ultrasound, epidural, etc., it's safe to assume that women back then would have a higher chance of becoming sterile after their first child.

That would be overlooking the Bible, though, and the fact that SHE DID HAVE MORE CHILDREN. Jesus had a brother named James.

Again. Reading the Bible might help when discussing the Bible. Just a little bit.

Simply put, the Catholic Church is based in the Bible, but interpretations can and do vary. It's called liberalism (to an extent).

It's called not being based on the Bible, or even the manipulations that the Catholic Church has tried to pass.

No, it's very difficult. Especially for one who has been brought up under a different tradition their entire life. Would you convert to Christianity if you were born and raised a Muslim or a Hindu? You're asking them to change their whole life - a fairly big ask.

Where they'd spend eternity is a fairly big issue, too. Eternity's kinda long, you know.

And what of those who have never heard the Good News? Tribes in the Amazon is a fair stereotype. Do they go to Heaven or Hell? I'd like to think Heaven, just like unbaptised babies.

While I don't know enough about this to say for sure what the Bible says, I think they are judged on what they DO believe, combined with their actions.

Do you know that the only way out is through Jesus?

No. That's what faith is for.

Sure, I think it is a "way out", but I don't and can't believe that it is the only one. I know plenty of people who are not Christian, but are probably 'better Christians' than me.

Considering the fact that you claim to be Christian, or at least Catholic, but do not believe or follow the Bible ... yes, there are probably quite a few people who are "better Christians" than you are.

If you're referring to people with better works but without the Christian faith, that's one thing. If you're insinuating that one person of faith can be "better" in the eyes of God than another, you are -- once again -- not following the Bible. Since faith is all that matters, strength in faith is important, not whether somebody is "good" or not.

And people can tend the sick, shelter the poor, and comfort the lonely and end up in Hell? I'd say they were prime candidates to sit with the Lamb.

Once again, them's the rules. You can do as much good as you want, and we've all still sinned, which would make us unworthy. Unless we were forgiven.

It was the Christians who were not of the Eastern or Coptic churches. I.e the forerunners of Catholics and Protestants.

The Protestants split from the Catholics because Catholicism placed too much of an emphasis on the Church and not enough on the Bible. Still, it was the Church that pushed for the Crusades.

And the Catholic Church wasn't chased out of the Holy Land by Muslims, no they established themselves in Europe (St Peter).

The Church wasn't chased out because the Church wasn't there -- it was Christianity and Christians that were chased out.

Pope Urban thought it would be kool to have them, but it was sort of unprovoked.

Except for the whole convert-or-be-slaughtered tactic the Muslims had when they moved in. It was a while before, sure, but it certainly wasn't an invasion of a friendly neighbor.

It tells you that three religions share the same holy sites, and that there are understandable tensions.

Yes, and there are multiple conflicts between Christians and Jews right now over those holy sites, aren't there? Those Christians and Jews just fighting to the death over ... wait? What's that you say? There are no conflicts between Christians and Jews? They're all between Muslims and Jews or Muslims and Christians? But Christians and Jews share some of the same holy sites -- almost all of them. You mean Christians and Jews DON'T slaughter each other? There aren't many Jewish suicide bombers that target buses full of Christian women and children? There aren't many Christians who drop mortars into Jewish densely-populated civilian areas?

Besides, for one thing, the Muslim world's problem with Israel isn't with a "holy site", it's because Israel exists. And for another, Islam's holy sites were not only Jewish holy sites long before, but also include cities which were taken in a military invasion. Do you know what he pilgrimage to Mecca was for Mohammad?

It's fine and dandy to anyone with an ounce of reason as well. Being a Christian doesn't mean you have to forfeit reason.

And since you say Christianity is unreasonable, that's all that matters.

And yet you do just that.

Is there anything else you'd like to tell me about myself, Miss Cleo? First you try telling me that I never question or re-evaluate my beliefs, even though you don't know what my beliefs are, and I'm pretty sure I remember doing exactly that ... Maybe you know my lucky lotto numbers for this week? I won't succeed as a professional pole-vaulter? Patenting my idea for a toaster/dishwasher will lead to financial gain? Marry the chubby girl instead of the pretty one because the pretty one only wants me for my penis and the fat one cooks well and will never leave? Please enlighten me!

Education, a lot of which is misguided, ignorant, and bigoted.

According to you -- so if it follows the Bible, teaches that faith is important, that believing will let somebody spend eternity in paradise ... and that's "misguided, ignorant, and bigoted".

Oh, well. At least you wait until the end of your post to admit defeat by pulling out "bigot". You had a good run, kid. Maybe next year.

A better way would be to show others what Christians do: help those who need it. I'm sure that would send a more powerful message that Limbaugh's hateful vitriol.

Limbaugh ... Are you referring to Rush Limbaugh? You've got to be smart enough to not be referring to Rush Limbaugh while referring to Christian witnessing, missions, outreach programs, and education. You've got to be smart enough to know that Rush Limbaugh is a political commentator, not a religious one. You've got to be that smart. You must be referring to another Limbaugh, of which I have heard nothing.