Football! (the real kind, not the European variety)

[Shan'do Spike]

Any contact to the face is a penalty regardless of the situation.

You are incorrect. I quoted from the NFL rulebook as to why you're incorrect, but I'll post it again with giant emphasis on the end of the rule:

A "facemask" penalty is a judgment call that is not reviewable by replay.

Rule 12, Section 2, Article 5 of the NFL Rule Book (page 81) states that "no player shall twist, turn, or pull the facemask of an opponent in any direction."

The Rule Book describes the penalty as follows:

"Penalty: For twisting, turning or pulling the mask: loss of 15 yards. A personal foul. The player may be disqualified if the action is judged by the official(s) to be of a flagrant nature."

The Rule Book describes an approved ruling as it relates to facemask penalties (page 81).

"A.R. 12.12 - Third-and-10 on A30. Runner A1 runs to the A33, where he is tackled by B1, who incidentally grasps A1's facemask on the tackle, but it is not a twist, turn or pull. Ruling: A's ball, fourth-and-seven, on A33. No foul."

Note, I'm not saying what did or didn't happen with the last play of the game. I'm just contesting the assertion that "touch the face => automatic penalty".

I'm just going to choose to not respond to your other post. You're a Packers fan. I'm a Cardinals fan. You're always going to see calls as biased against you, just as I'm going to see them as biased against me. (And for the record, I just watched the video again. I see absolutely nothing from that angle that couldn't be a natural body response to his lower body being tackled to the ground. He gets hit and he falls to his left. His head does not move at any weird angle or velocity that suggests it's being pulled or hit.). You'll complain about Woodson getting pushed over. I'll point out that Woodson was being just as physical to Fitzgerald, and things like that happen when the referees decide to "let the players play". It's similar to different umpires having different strike zones in baseball. As long as they are consistent, it's generally considered okay. Trust me, if I really wanted to spend the time (I don't) I could find tons of plays where Woodson knocked the crap out of Fitzgerald but it wasn't called. This is exactly what I mean by "calls even out over times". The reason you're not seeing them on highlight shows is because the Cardinals won. There's a reason Packers players aren't mouthing off, complaining about the refereeing, and it's because they know they had plenty of chances to win the game beyond that.

Anyway, this is a pointless argument. I just didn't want the "any contact to the face is an automatic penalty stuff to stand".

[Sasquatch]

I'm just contesting the assertion that "touch the face => automatic penalty".

Yes and no. Touching of the FACE is illegal, as it's "hands to the face". Touching the FACEMASK, however, is not. As you pointed out -- again -- the "inadvertent facemask" penalty -- the five-yarder -- is no longer illegal. So if a player grabs the facemask and twists or pulls it, or uses it to bring the opposing player down, that's a personal foul -- if a player has his hand on the facemask, even if he grabs the facemask but does nothing else with it, it's not a foul, and there is not a penalty. Case closed.

I just love how some people think, "I've seen a few dozen, maybe even a hundred or two NFL games, I know more about what's illegal and what's not than those damn referees that have only been through a little training on it and only ref'd at least once a week during preseason, regular, and postseason for the last twenty years!"

I see it all the time at bars on Sundays. There are ALWAYS situations that "should have been penalties" -- especially when it comes to drunken Packer fans. I'm surprised more fights didn't break out when they played the Vikings.

Of course, there ARE some plays that should have been penalties, and there ARE some plays that were called penalties that should not have been. But to speculate that any refereeing is "biased" is just ridiculous. People lose their lives over that stuff -- and no, I don't mean they're killed (in America, anyway), I mean that that a referee who displays bias would lose their career and be sued, not to mention whatever the fans try to do. Hell, Steve Bartman was just a (baseball) fan who caught a foul ball, and he got death threats for years.

I also have to laugh at any accusations that support Al Harris and Charles Woodson, who are excused a few times every game for pass interference and illegal contact because "that's just their playing style". It's like like Mike Tyson getting away with biting because "that's just his boxing style".

I also have to laugh at the terms "we", "us", and "our". You're not part of the team. (Not calling out anybody specific, just in general.)

ANYWAY ... Looks like my picks are still holding up. I don't follow AFC too much, but NFC, of course. (In the AFC, I kinda like the Dolphins, and I can't stand the Patriots and Raiders -- that's about all I care about them.) I don't know if the Cowboys are good enough to keep it together, but they've really buckled down in the last month or so. The Vikings, I expect to choke, just like they've always done in the past. The Saints have the potential in their speed, but I don't think they can keep up the pressure. And the Cardinals just aren't consistent enough -- it'll depend on which Cardinals team actually shows up. I mean hell, last week, the Offense showed up but the Defense didn't.

As for AFC ... the Jets have an awesome defense, and I really liked the fact that I didn't hear any trash-talk from Revis after he prettymuch shut down Ochocinco two weeks in a row -- of course, Ochocinco had diarrhea of the mouth, but that's to be expected of him. Plus, I'm a fan of Thomas Jones since he played (well) for the Bears. (Cedric Benson played for the Bears too, but it seemed like once he got the starting spot, he kinda crapped out -- glad to see he's got his act together with the Bengals, though, he'll probably be a good franchise HB.) I'd like to see the Jets go far, even though they are rivals of the Dolphins. And they're playing the Chargers, which'll be a tough game for 'em. I'd venture a guess now that the Jets can beat Baltimore, but not Indy (especially in Indianapolis) -- of course, they've got to get past the Chargers first.

Sidenote: If you smoke, and you want to piss off a Vikings fan, here's what you do. You know that thin plastic wrapped around cigarette packs, where the bottom 2/3 or so are still there after you open it? Slide that down the rest of the pack, then set it on the bar/table/etc. open-side down. "You know what that is? That's a Minnesota Vikings trophy case."

Sidenote #2: I also think it's safe to say that the NFC North will be a damn tough division next year. Once Cutler gets settled in with the Bears and they make a few changes (well, a lot of changes with their staff), the Packers will still be good, and so will the Vikings. I can easily see three of the six NFC playoff teams next year coming from the NFC North.

[Chaos_Weapon]

I figured as much. Back in High School, my coach used to scream at my linebackers for doing that when they couldn't play defense correctly. LOL. The good ol' days.

[Taco-Calamitous]

Aw, c'mon! Complaining about the officiating is part of being a fan, haha. I'm sure it's stressful for the ref; he's got very little time to determine if something happened that shouldn't have, and he isn't going to see everything that happened on the field... but the fans will, when they see an instant replay seconds later. And some (seems like most) plays are unreviewable.

For example; each of the past three years, I think, a PAC 10 official has been suspended for poor officiating of a game. the first time was the Oregon/Oklahoma game, when the replay official effed up on an onside kick call that cost Oklahoma the game. The next year was the Oregon State/Washington game, where the officials did not protect the players well enough. The third was the Oregon State/USC game, where a player's helmet was ripped off his head, and no flag was thrown. Fans from around the conference can tell you they've gotten a pretty poor reputation.

Just sayin', I think fans have reason to complain, sometimes. Anyhoo...

Wuv, Yer Mom

[Polk]

Sidenote #2: I also think it's safe to say that the NFC North will be a damn tough division next year. Once Cutler gets settled in with the Bears and they make a few changes (well, a lot of changes with their staff), the Packers will still be good, and so will the Vikings. I can easily see three of the six NFC playoff teams next year coming from the NFC North.

I agree. The Bears should be fine once Cutler gets settled down, The Vikings are still one of the most talented teams in the entire league whether or not Old Man Favre delays his retirement, and the Packers will be fine as long as they fix some glaring offensive line problems. Hell, maybe even the Lions will have a good offseason and not be God awful next year. Hey. Stranger things have happened.

As for the rest of the post-season, I'll be exclusively cheering against Brett Favre. I wouldn't mind seeing the Cardinals make another run at the title, as I like Kurt Warner, and I have no problems with any of the AFC teams, since the Patriots got crushed.

[Walter Sobchak]

The word is that they are allowing Jay Cutler to interview offensive coordinator candidates, so they should be building a whole offense around him. Maybe they go and get Brandon Marshall and make a show of it, who knows.

Anyone but Brett Favre is my mantra for the rest of the season. I would like to see the Cardinals win. I would root for the Colts, but their dismissal of perfection angers me.

[Shan'do Spike]

4th and 1, 1:09 left, 17-14 Jets. Jets have the ball. I'm screaming "GO FOR IT" so loud that I hope they hear me in San Diego.

Also, the Cowgirls were completely outmatched for the Vikings. Good for them. Sidney Rice is looking really good.

[Walter Sobchak]

I am glad the Jets won. The Colts are my dog left in the fight, and they can handle the Jets much easier than the Chargers.

If the Super Bowl is Favre versus the Jets, I will hang myself.