Which is the greatest, VII or XII?

[Heartless Angel]

Spoiler: Equips Flame Resistant Shield

~EDIT~ Honestly I think people are just attracted to VII because it was the first FF game to majorly involve the american people err rather appeal to them the most, considering it was the first 3D FF game and at the time (let's be honest) not many people was totally into 2D games unless they were old school gamers. Let's switch places here, VII was XII and XII was VII, or rather let's use any FF game for that matter, I bet people would then say oh yeah FF__ is the best, just epic, superior in anyway shape or form.

Maybe I'm letting my feelings get in the way of this but still, no one has ever proven me wrong on thinking a majority thinks VII is the best bc it's the first 3D FF game on a new or rather popular console so I will stand by the above statement. I use to defend VIII, VI and Tactics against VII all the time when i was younger until I realized pfft why bother anymore. VI used to be that popular but because it doesn't have pretty graphics, a majority of people will forget about it. I think there's a rather handful of people who still consider VI one of the greatest FF games ever made, but in ratio, that's way smaller if you compare it to the VII fan base.

Ok I'm done with my little sermon...

VII wasn't te first FF I played, nor was it my first 3d FF, but it's still my favorite story of the series. What you've posed here isn't an argument against VII at all, but rather an explanation of how it could attain popularity without being good. An explanation as a premise in an argument at best makes your conclusion (that VII isn't just that good) possible. It no more proves it's not the best than my initial statement explaining that VII was not my first but still my favorite proves that it is. Also, the fact that nobody has disproven that explanation does not confirm it. Suggesting that it does is a form of logical fallacy known as Argumentum ad Ignorantium. I could just as easily dismiss XII by saying that most people only like it because it was the first to completely mutilate the classic system, or the first of the main series set in the familiar world of Ivalice, or the first with high graphic representation of bunny chicks. None of these possible explanations devalue the game's actual quality in any way.

If you wish to argue that the fact that people liked it because it was new and different, it's almost impossible to logically support XII, because it too was one of the first big changes in the franchise, breaking away from the classic combat system. In fact I would be willing to say that that is exactly why alot of people liked XII, but again, that explanation lends little to no support to my conclusion.

[Angel of Iniquity]

VII wasn't te first FF I played, nor was it my first 3d FF, but it's still my favorite story of the series. What you've posed here isn't an argument against VII at all, but rather an explanation of how it could attain popularity without being good. An explanation as a premise in an argument at best makes your conclusion (that VII isn't just that good) possible. It no more proves it's not the best than my initial statement explaining that VII was not my first but still my favorite proves that it is. Also, the fact that nobody has disproven that explanation does not confirm it. Suggesting that it does is a form of logical fallacy known as Argumentum ad Ignorantium. I could just as easily dismiss XII by saying that most people only like it because it was the first to completely mutilate the classic system, or the first of the main series set in the familiar world of Ivalice, or the first with high graphic representation of bunny chicks. None of these possible explanations devalue the game's actual quality in any way.

If you wish to argue that the fact that people liked it because it was new and different, it's almost impossible to logically support XII, because it too was one of the first big changes in the franchise, breaking away from the classic combat system. In fact I would be willing to say that that is exactly why alot of people liked XII, but again, that explanation lends little to no support to my conclusion.

Sure is heartless ^-^

[Linus Li Lelouch]

Suggesting that it does is a form of logical fallacy known as Argumentum ad Ignorantium.

What did you call my mother????

[Heartless Angel]

Rough translation is appeal to ignorance, sometimes referred to as misplacing the burden of evidence or proof. Long story short, when you make a claim, it's your responsibility to prove it, not that of anyone who doesn't take your word for it to disprove it.

[Linus Li Lelouch]

You are mistaken my fellow TFF member, this was not something to be proven nor something worth debatable material, as I said at the end, it was just a rant. It was something I wanted to get off my chest from a couple years ago that's all. Take it how you want, flame all you want, insult me all you want, I know what I meant so it means nothing. But I must commend you for assuming I'm like every other random fanboy throwing out some nonsense then trying to defend myself from it. Chao

[Xanatos]

The characters and their motivations of XII we're just very weak, I couldn't for the life of me figure out WHY most of them were doing what they were doing.

Weak!

They were fighting against oppression, tyranny, to stop possible war outbreak on scale the world has never seen before, for better tomorrow. My father fought for the same cause, to defend his country so I may live in peace, would you call his motivations weak.


Final Fantasy XII offered us more than just pretty graphics as some seem to claim, it evolved the series in so many aspects, and people still moan about it. It distanced itself from usual teen characters, and cliched story seen countless times before with superficial difference at best.
Final Fantasy XII gave us freedom, huge open spaces, non random battles, battle system far superior to it's predecessors, Ivalice, live world with actual history, culture, and races, huge amount of content, challenge, music on par with other entries in franchise...

...still, there will be pricks who keep a blind eye to these facts when it comes to comparison with their favorite entry in franchise, therefor claims that Final Fantasy XII has only graphics compared to "input Final Fantasy game here" will still be common.

~EDIT~ Honestly I think people are just attracted to VII because it was the first FF game to majorly involve the american people err rather appeal to them the most, considering it was the first 3D FF game and at the time (let's be honest) not many people was totally into 2D games unless they were old school gamers. Let's switch places here, VII was XII and XII was VII, or rather let's use any FF game for that matter, I bet people would then say oh yeah FF__ is the best, just epic, superior in anyway shape or form.

Maybe I'm letting my feelings get in the way of this but still, no one has ever proven me wrong on thinking a majority thinks VII is the best bc it's the first 3D FF game on a new or rather popular console so I will stand by the above statement. I use to defend VIII, VI and Tactics against VII all the time when i was younger until I realized pfft why bother anymore. VI used to be that popular but because it doesn't have pretty graphics, a majority of people will forget about it. I think there's a rather handful of people who still consider VI one of the greatest FF games ever made, but in ratio, that's way smaller if you compare it to the VII fan base.

Ok I'm done with my little sermon...

There's some truth in your words. It's a common knowlege that Final Fantasy VII achieved it's immense popularity due to huge campaing no other title had before it in USA, and Europe, the fact that it was the first Final Fantasy in 3D, introduction to not just franchise, but RPG in general for mass amount of players.

On the other hand those who played other RPG-s before it, with few exceptions, rare though, fail to see the hype. Prime example would be Japan, where titles such as Final Fantasy IV, V, VI, Chrono Triger, and many more were already popular, and played by mass of players, Japan was wondering what the **** is with all those players, haven't they played a good RPG before.

[Linus Li Lelouch]

There's some truth in your words. It's a common knowlege that Final Fantasy VII achieved it's immense popularity due to huge campaing no other title had before it in USA, and Europe, the fact that it was the first Final Fantasy in 3D, introduction to not just franchise, but RPG in general for mass amount of players.

On the other hand those who played other RPG-s before it, with few exceptions, rare though, fail to see the hype. Prime example would be Japan, where titles such as Final Fantasy IV, V, VI, Chrono Triger, and many more were already popular, and played by mass of players, Japan was wondering what the **** is with all those players, haven't they played a good RPG before.

At first I was kinda waiting for a response like that, but then I went and got the heartless person. I don't know whether you looked past my rant or not but this was indeed a very respectable response to my rant. I thank you Sir for being a cool-headed person and not trying to insult my intelligence, like some others I will not dare mention.


~EDIT~

Rough translation is appeal to ignorance, sometimes referred to as misplacing the burden of evidence or proof. Long story short, when you make a claim, it's your responsibility to prove it, not that of anyone who doesn't take your word for it to disprove it.

The fact that I did get this kind of reply kinda informs me that I may be dealing with the Youtube Bandits that defend the honor of anything they assume to be Argumentum ad Ignorantium (his words). I mean that was a straight low blow, like I just killed his cat or something.


FYI
I'm actually more intelligent than most online forum members think I am not, sometimes I slip up every now and then, it happens, emotions I had as a kid just come swirling up and BAM i kinda just let it loose. Like the details under my username states *Badass Military Agent*, that doesn't just state towards my job in the military but towards anything I do seriously, every human in the world is allow to have a *kid moment* and if not, then damn my bad, maybe we shouldn't be talking at all then.

[JuzamDjinn]

FYI
I'm actually more intelligent than most online forum members think I am not, sometimes I slip up every now and then, it happens, emotions I had as a kid just come swirling up and BAM i kinda just let it loose. Like the details under my username states *Badass Military Agent*, that doesn't just state towards my job in the military but towards anything I do seriously, every human in the world is allow to have a *kid moment* and if not, then damn my bad, maybe we shouldn't be talking at all then.

No need to feel the need to state that you're not an idiot. This an internet forum, after all.

Xanatos: To restate, the writers didn't effectivly make me care about these 6 characters. However I'll have your thoughts the next time I play though the game.
I think this comes back to values and cultural experiences. I was watching Deep Space 9 recently (forget what episode) and Sisquo said something that I think fits in well here. [context of federation not willing to help Bajoren colonies in Cardasian space]"...the problem is earth, when the admirals at starfleet HQ [SanFransoco CA, USA] look out their window they see paradise, they have forgotten what it is like have poverty, hunger or desperation..."
Clearly the stuggle depicted in FFXII means something more to you than just a story within a game.
(I know you familier with star trek xanatos, ds9?)

[Heartless Angel]

I was going to leave it alone after the first implied insult, but if you'd like to keep at it, I'm perfectly willing to join in.

At first I was kinda waiting for a response like that, but then I went and got the heartless person. I don't know whether you looked past my rant or not but this was indeed a very respectable response to my rant. I thank you Sir for being a cool-headed person and not trying to insult my intelligence, like some others I will not dare mention.

At no point in time did I insult you or your intelligence. I pointed out a fundamental flaw in your statement that otherwise may have influenced others in spite of being brushed off by you as a rant (which given your immediate defensive repsonse looks like a lot like you did solely for the purpose of leaving yourself an escape from your own words should anybody decide to argue with them). Thus far the only person who's taken anything to a personal level here is yourself. Also a fine bit of weaseling by very clearly implying an insult towards me while leaving yourself an escape by not explicitly stating it.

The fact that I did get this kind of reply kinda informs me that I may be dealing with the Youtube Bandits that defend the honor of anything they assume to be Argumentum ad Ignorantium (his words). I mean that was a straight low blow, like I just killed his cat or something.

Again, I insulted you? No actually, I didn't assume anything to be argumentum ad ignorantium, I looked at your statement and made a positive ID on that statement as argumentum ad ignorantium. Suits the form to a T. The only one taking anything personally here is you.

I'm actually more intelligent than most online forum members think I am not, sometimes I slip up every now and then, it happens, emotions I had as a kid just come swirling up and BAM i kinda just let it loose. Like the details under my username states *Badass Military Agent*, that doesn't just state towards my job in the military but towards anything I do seriously, every human in the world is allow to have a *kid moment* and if not, then damn my bad, maybe we shouldn't be talking at all then.

I'm fine with kid moments and bad arguments, as a result, I launched no attack on you personally over it. What I'm not fine with is somebody attempting to turn the argument into an attack on me because you haven't got any legitimate response to counter my statement. If you can't handle being argued with, then maybe you shouldn't talk in threads where people are likely to have opposing views.

[Angel of Iniquity]

Weak!
Final Fantasy XII offered us more than just pretty graphics as some seem to claim, it evolved the series in so many aspects, and people still moan about it. It distanced itself from usual teen characters, and cliched story seen countless times before with superficial difference at best.
Final Fantasy XII gave us freedom, huge open spaces, non random battles, battle system far superior to it's predecessors, Ivalice, live world with actual history, culture, and races, huge amount of content, challenge, music on par with other entries in franchise...

Jeesh lol
Music I will say is definitely not on par with the others, one of the worst in the series next to FF13.
All FF gives you open spaces, but to a limit of the overhead view, tho there were reasons lol
ANd if you meant the broken fighting system of FF12? My gambits were perfect at level 7. I swear I couldn't lose. WHich deducts the difficulty.

Tho, it does have an impressive amount of history and a sense of fullness in the history which is definitely missing in other FF's.

The reason why some people hate FF12 is because it strayed too far from what FF is known for, same with FF13. I liked FF12, I liked the openness, but the characters were the single most redundant characters I have ever seen next to most of the FF13 cast. If the characters actually showed enough emotion to care about the potential war than maybe I would adore it. I mean, the PAL edition gave you classes, not the NA which bites @$$ lol.

I just wish they perhaps were to fix the studio sounding Voice acting. You know, when I was in the giza plains, they still sounded like they were in a closed room.
And get rid of vaan and penelo. EVen balthier and Fran.
Vaan and penelo basically got dragged into the storyline. Balthier and Fran had little to nothing to do with the story. The only important characters were Basch and Ashelia. Even what's his face at the beginning was better.

But that is below my hatred for FF7 o.o
Overall the game was great.