Which is the greatest, VII or XII?

[norman]

I think that final fantasy vii is way better than final fantasy xii by far. it has better graphics and a better story line. it is like what your life wants to be but can't push through the boundery. Anyway, I think that final fantasyvii is the better than the final fnatasy xii.

[Ryu-Kentoshii Hirokima]

I Liked Them Both Equally. FFXII Is Only Better Because Of The Graphics And The Freedom To Fight What You Want, When You Want And Etcetera And The Storyline For It Was Pretty Good. The Only Reason Why I Find That FFVII The Original Is Equal, Is Because The Graphics Aren't As Good...But Everything About It Is Pretty Much Better Than FFXII. Now, If They Remade FFVII For The PS3, And Keep The Same Story And Everything, Then It Would Be Deffenitly Way Better. We Will Just Have To Wait And See For That. This Is Just MY Opinion On The Subject.

[markandrewkinzett]

To be fair I have not played 12 but I have seen it being played and it looks pretty awesome but in the end FF7 is just a classic so uinfortunately for major 12 fans sorry!!!

[Linus Li Lelouch]

See Other Post....

~EDIT~

[Angel of Iniquity]

Well, there is allot of people who shun FF12, WAY more than FF7. Actually, I have heard people talk like FF12 is horrible, which I hqalf-way agree in.

[Zeromus]

I love them both but I gotta go with 7. I've never spent time playing a game like that one and i spend a lot of time playing them Now if they were to remake it just to update its graphics it would be GOLD

[8ethers]

Absolutely final fantasy 7. For me at least. I've played it several times throughout the years and am always amazed by the depth of the storyline. Leveling up is assisting And easy. The characters are great ( gotta love CID).
Maybe some of my opinion has to do with 1.I was in seventh grade when it came out and 2. At the time the transition of graphics from ff6 to ff7 was absolutely mind-blowing. Twelve was great and the complexity of it was challenging but 7 is unbeatable.

[Zidane77]

I don't think those games are comparable, VII is simply way superior in any way.
The only thing FFXII has over some other FF games is the battle system which i like but the battle system in VII is my favorite of the older games and is fast enough for my taste.
I get tired of the battle system in IX and X but VII is always epic.

So that little thing FFXII has isn't even worth to compare, cause everything else blows in comparison (storyline,music,characters, everything).
I do like FFXII but it has alot of flaws in my opinion.

[Linus Li Lelouch]

After playing both, I'm gonna go with XII, something about the game just made me sit at the edge of my seat the whole time. VII was good and all but I mean it just can't compare to XII, the story of XII was way more epic and understanding than that of VII. Not to mention Balthier is damn near better than most of, if not all of VII's characters. The battle system was also a nice addition to it, made me feel like I was watching a movie which just added to me understanding everything more since I didn't have to put so much thought into fighting. Don't get me wrong VII was a great game, can't go wrong with it...

The bosses were also way harder, which is always good to have a nice challenge, the Espers also had a nice background into the game (If you bother talking to NPCs) which made me happy that I was not just getting some random monster to tame.

The characters in both games were decent but I felt more of a connection to the ones in XII, specifically Ashe, Fran, Balthier, and Basch. Even Vayne was pretty badass in his own little way, can't get any better than that.

I could go on but then we'd be here all day. Simply put XII is just epic, while VII is just *eh why not*.

Spoiler: Equips Flame Resistant Shield

~EDIT~ Honestly I think people are just attracted to VII because it was the first FF game to majorly involve the american people err rather appeal to them the most, considering it was the first 3D FF game and at the time (let's be honest) not many people was totally into 2D games unless they were old school gamers. Let's switch places here, VII was XII and XII was VII, or rather let's use any FF game for that matter, I bet people would then say oh yeah FF__ is the best, just epic, superior in anyway shape or form.

Maybe I'm letting my feelings get in the way of this but still, no one has ever proven me wrong on thinking a majority thinks VII is the best bc it's the first 3D FF game on a new or rather popular console so I will stand by the above statement. I use to defend VIII, VI and Tactics against VII all the time when i was younger until I realized pfft why bother anymore. VI used to be that popular but because it doesn't have pretty graphics, a majority of people will forget about it. I think there's a rather handful of people who still consider VI one of the greatest FF games ever made, but in ratio, that's way smaller if you compare it to the VII fan base.

Ok I'm done with my little sermon...

[Heartless Angel]

Spoiler: Equips Flame Resistant Shield

~EDIT~ Honestly I think people are just attracted to VII because it was the first FF game to majorly involve the american people err rather appeal to them the most, considering it was the first 3D FF game and at the time (let's be honest) not many people was totally into 2D games unless they were old school gamers. Let's switch places here, VII was XII and XII was VII, or rather let's use any FF game for that matter, I bet people would then say oh yeah FF__ is the best, just epic, superior in anyway shape or form.

Maybe I'm letting my feelings get in the way of this but still, no one has ever proven me wrong on thinking a majority thinks VII is the best bc it's the first 3D FF game on a new or rather popular console so I will stand by the above statement. I use to defend VIII, VI and Tactics against VII all the time when i was younger until I realized pfft why bother anymore. VI used to be that popular but because it doesn't have pretty graphics, a majority of people will forget about it. I think there's a rather handful of people who still consider VI one of the greatest FF games ever made, but in ratio, that's way smaller if you compare it to the VII fan base.

Ok I'm done with my little sermon...

VII wasn't te first FF I played, nor was it my first 3d FF, but it's still my favorite story of the series. What you've posed here isn't an argument against VII at all, but rather an explanation of how it could attain popularity without being good. An explanation as a premise in an argument at best makes your conclusion (that VII isn't just that good) possible. It no more proves it's not the best than my initial statement explaining that VII was not my first but still my favorite proves that it is. Also, the fact that nobody has disproven that explanation does not confirm it. Suggesting that it does is a form of logical fallacy known as Argumentum ad Ignorantium. I could just as easily dismiss XII by saying that most people only like it because it was the first to completely mutilate the classic system, or the first of the main series set in the familiar world of Ivalice, or the first with high graphic representation of bunny chicks. None of these possible explanations devalue the game's actual quality in any way.

If you wish to argue that the fact that people liked it because it was new and different, it's almost impossible to logically support XII, because it too was one of the first big changes in the franchise, breaking away from the classic combat system. In fact I would be willing to say that that is exactly why alot of people liked XII, but again, that explanation lends little to no support to my conclusion.

[Angel of Iniquity]

VII wasn't te first FF I played, nor was it my first 3d FF, but it's still my favorite story of the series. What you've posed here isn't an argument against VII at all, but rather an explanation of how it could attain popularity without being good. An explanation as a premise in an argument at best makes your conclusion (that VII isn't just that good) possible. It no more proves it's not the best than my initial statement explaining that VII was not my first but still my favorite proves that it is. Also, the fact that nobody has disproven that explanation does not confirm it. Suggesting that it does is a form of logical fallacy known as Argumentum ad Ignorantium. I could just as easily dismiss XII by saying that most people only like it because it was the first to completely mutilate the classic system, or the first of the main series set in the familiar world of Ivalice, or the first with high graphic representation of bunny chicks. None of these possible explanations devalue the game's actual quality in any way.

If you wish to argue that the fact that people liked it because it was new and different, it's almost impossible to logically support XII, because it too was one of the first big changes in the franchise, breaking away from the classic combat system. In fact I would be willing to say that that is exactly why alot of people liked XII, but again, that explanation lends little to no support to my conclusion.

Sure is heartless ^-^

[JuzamDjinn]

I liked everything about VII better.
I did enjoy alot of what XII had to offer though, the battle system had its flaws, but this was their first attempt to break away from menu based combat. Considering this they did a good job I feel.
The characters and their motivations of XII we're just very weak, I couldn't for the life of me figure out WHY most of them were doing what they were doing.
VII had some of the most beautiful settings I've seen in a game scince Myst, and the cyberpunk themes appealed alot to my personal taste.

both great games, but VII is strongly leading XII in my subjectivity.

[Linus Li Lelouch]

Suggesting that it does is a form of logical fallacy known as Argumentum ad Ignorantium.

What did you call my mother????

[Heartless Angel]

Rough translation is appeal to ignorance, sometimes referred to as misplacing the burden of evidence or proof. Long story short, when you make a claim, it's your responsibility to prove it, not that of anyone who doesn't take your word for it to disprove it.

[Linus Li Lelouch]

You are mistaken my fellow TFF member, this was not something to be proven nor something worth debatable material, as I said at the end, it was just a rant. It was something I wanted to get off my chest from a couple years ago that's all. Take it how you want, flame all you want, insult me all you want, I know what I meant so it means nothing. But I must commend you for assuming I'm like every other random fanboy throwing out some nonsense then trying to defend myself from it. Chao

[Xanatos]

The characters and their motivations of XII we're just very weak, I couldn't for the life of me figure out WHY most of them were doing what they were doing.

Weak!

They were fighting against oppression, tyranny, to stop possible war outbreak on scale the world has never seen before, for better tomorrow. My father fought for the same cause, to defend his country so I may live in peace, would you call his motivations weak.


Final Fantasy XII offered us more than just pretty graphics as some seem to claim, it evolved the series in so many aspects, and people still moan about it. It distanced itself from usual teen characters, and cliched story seen countless times before with superficial difference at best.
Final Fantasy XII gave us freedom, huge open spaces, non random battles, battle system far superior to it's predecessors, Ivalice, live world with actual history, culture, and races, huge amount of content, challenge, music on par with other entries in franchise...

...still, there will be pricks who keep a blind eye to these facts when it comes to comparison with their favorite entry in franchise, therefor claims that Final Fantasy XII has only graphics compared to "input Final Fantasy game here" will still be common.

~EDIT~ Honestly I think people are just attracted to VII because it was the first FF game to majorly involve the american people err rather appeal to them the most, considering it was the first 3D FF game and at the time (let's be honest) not many people was totally into 2D games unless they were old school gamers. Let's switch places here, VII was XII and XII was VII, or rather let's use any FF game for that matter, I bet people would then say oh yeah FF__ is the best, just epic, superior in anyway shape or form.

Maybe I'm letting my feelings get in the way of this but still, no one has ever proven me wrong on thinking a majority thinks VII is the best bc it's the first 3D FF game on a new or rather popular console so I will stand by the above statement. I use to defend VIII, VI and Tactics against VII all the time when i was younger until I realized pfft why bother anymore. VI used to be that popular but because it doesn't have pretty graphics, a majority of people will forget about it. I think there's a rather handful of people who still consider VI one of the greatest FF games ever made, but in ratio, that's way smaller if you compare it to the VII fan base.

Ok I'm done with my little sermon...

There's some truth in your words. It's a common knowlege that Final Fantasy VII achieved it's immense popularity due to huge campaing no other title had before it in USA, and Europe, the fact that it was the first Final Fantasy in 3D, introduction to not just franchise, but RPG in general for mass amount of players.

On the other hand those who played other RPG-s before it, with few exceptions, rare though, fail to see the hype. Prime example would be Japan, where titles such as Final Fantasy IV, V, VI, Chrono Triger, and many more were already popular, and played by mass of players, Japan was wondering what the **** is with all those players, haven't they played a good RPG before.

[JuzamDjinn]

Weak!

They were fighting against oppression, tyranny, to stop possible war outbreak on scale the world has never seen before, for better tomorrow. My father fought for the same cause, to defend his country so I may live in peace, would you call his motivations weak.

The characters aswell a their personal motivations, yes. Their motivations just didnt feel personally strong, oppression is bad, so what? why did the hoodrat kid decided to go on all those razy adventures? never reallt said...he just does. Balthier wants treasure, nothing strong here. This game had some of the most underdeveloped characters that I've seen in the franchise.
but again, Im not saying this was a bad game. the characters and their motivations we're just very weakly developed.

What war was your dad in? ...I have no idea what you're talking about. American schools/media don't concern themselves with anything involving other countries. I dont even know what "Bosnia and Herzegovina" are(I think bosia is a country, right?), and I'm reletively well educated. sad really.

[Xanatos]

The characters aswell a their personal motivations, yes. Their motivations just didnt feel personally strong, oppression is bad, so what? why did the hoodrat kid decided to go on all those razy adventures? never reallt said...he just does. Balthier wants treasure, nothing strong here. This game had some of the most underdeveloped characters that I've seen in the franchise.
but again, Im not saying this was a bad game. the characters and their motivations we're just very weakly developed.

Every one of those characters had strong motives, Balthier had more at stake that you can even imagine. He's Arcadian after all, his nation, his own father is responsible for countless of casualties, grief, and sorrow. To you it may appear that he's was only after treasure, treasure hunt was just a mean to escape from cruel reality, distraction from real problems, treasure itself is what placed him on right path in the end, and forced him to solve his own problems.

Both Vaan, and Penelo lost everything to Arcadian empire, it's all thanks to Vaan's nature, and curiosity that they had chance to fight back. Do you really think Vaan accepted Bach's, and Ashe's offer so he could experience some kind of adventure, more to avenge his brother, and stop war from spreading even further, so more kids wouldn't have to experience the same fate he has.

To fight against oppression, tyranny, to stand, and defend your own country, family, relatives, friends, to prevent a war outbreak, annihilation of everything you ever known, for better tomorrow, peace...if these are not personal motives, or even good enough, then please do tell me what are?

What war was your dad in? ...I have no idea what you're talking about. American schools/media don't concern themselves with anything involving other countries. I dont even know what "Bosnia and Herzegovina" are(I think bosia is a country, right?), and I'm reletively well educated. sad really.

My father was fighting in civil war which began 1991 and ended 1995, last moments of Yugoslavia. I used it as an example to see what exactly do you consider strong motives to be, as characters from Finl Fantasy XII had the same motives. And you don't need to explain what kind of education USA has, unlike you folks there, here in Europe we tend to learn thing or two about other countries, sad indeed when you think about it, but that's for another discussion.

[Linus Li Lelouch]

There's some truth in your words. It's a common knowlege that Final Fantasy VII achieved it's immense popularity due to huge campaing no other title had before it in USA, and Europe, the fact that it was the first Final Fantasy in 3D, introduction to not just franchise, but RPG in general for mass amount of players.

On the other hand those who played other RPG-s before it, with few exceptions, rare though, fail to see the hype. Prime example would be Japan, where titles such as Final Fantasy IV, V, VI, Chrono Triger, and many more were already popular, and played by mass of players, Japan was wondering what the **** is with all those players, haven't they played a good RPG before.

At first I was kinda waiting for a response like that, but then I went and got the heartless person. I don't know whether you looked past my rant or not but this was indeed a very respectable response to my rant. I thank you Sir for being a cool-headed person and not trying to insult my intelligence, like some others I will not dare mention.


~EDIT~

Rough translation is appeal to ignorance, sometimes referred to as misplacing the burden of evidence or proof. Long story short, when you make a claim, it's your responsibility to prove it, not that of anyone who doesn't take your word for it to disprove it.

The fact that I did get this kind of reply kinda informs me that I may be dealing with the Youtube Bandits that defend the honor of anything they assume to be Argumentum ad Ignorantium (his words). I mean that was a straight low blow, like I just killed his cat or something.


FYI
I'm actually more intelligent than most online forum members think I am not, sometimes I slip up every now and then, it happens, emotions I had as a kid just come swirling up and BAM i kinda just let it loose. Like the details under my username states *Badass Military Agent*, that doesn't just state towards my job in the military but towards anything I do seriously, every human in the world is allow to have a *kid moment* and if not, then damn my bad, maybe we shouldn't be talking at all then.

[JuzamDjinn]

FYI
I'm actually more intelligent than most online forum members think I am not, sometimes I slip up every now and then, it happens, emotions I had as a kid just come swirling up and BAM i kinda just let it loose. Like the details under my username states *Badass Military Agent*, that doesn't just state towards my job in the military but towards anything I do seriously, every human in the world is allow to have a *kid moment* and if not, then damn my bad, maybe we shouldn't be talking at all then.

No need to feel the need to state that you're not an idiot. This an internet forum, after all.

Xanatos: To restate, the writers didn't effectivly make me care about these 6 characters. However I'll have your thoughts the next time I play though the game.
I think this comes back to values and cultural experiences. I was watching Deep Space 9 recently (forget what episode) and Sisquo said something that I think fits in well here. [context of federation not willing to help Bajoren colonies in Cardasian space]"...the problem is earth, when the admirals at starfleet HQ [SanFransoco CA, USA] look out their window they see paradise, they have forgotten what it is like have poverty, hunger or desperation..."
Clearly the stuggle depicted in FFXII means something more to you than just a story within a game.
(I know you familier with star trek xanatos, ds9?)

[Angel of Iniquity]

Weak!
Final Fantasy XII offered us more than just pretty graphics as some seem to claim, it evolved the series in so many aspects, and people still moan about it. It distanced itself from usual teen characters, and cliched story seen countless times before with superficial difference at best.
Final Fantasy XII gave us freedom, huge open spaces, non random battles, battle system far superior to it's predecessors, Ivalice, live world with actual history, culture, and races, huge amount of content, challenge, music on par with other entries in franchise...

Jeesh lol
Music I will say is definitely not on par with the others, one of the worst in the series next to FF13.
All FF gives you open spaces, but to a limit of the overhead view, tho there were reasons lol
ANd if you meant the broken fighting system of FF12? My gambits were perfect at level 7. I swear I couldn't lose. WHich deducts the difficulty.

Tho, it does have an impressive amount of history and a sense of fullness in the history which is definitely missing in other FF's.

The reason why some people hate FF12 is because it strayed too far from what FF is known for, same with FF13. I liked FF12, I liked the openness, but the characters were the single most redundant characters I have ever seen next to most of the FF13 cast. If the characters actually showed enough emotion to care about the potential war than maybe I would adore it. I mean, the PAL edition gave you classes, not the NA which bites @$$ lol.

I just wish they perhaps were to fix the studio sounding Voice acting. You know, when I was in the giza plains, they still sounded like they were in a closed room.
And get rid of vaan and penelo. EVen balthier and Fran.
Vaan and penelo basically got dragged into the storyline. Balthier and Fran had little to nothing to do with the story. The only important characters were Basch and Ashelia. Even what's his face at the beginning was better.

But that is below my hatred for FF7 o.o
Overall the game was great.

[Heartless Angel]

I was going to leave it alone after the first implied insult, but if you'd like to keep at it, I'm perfectly willing to join in.

At first I was kinda waiting for a response like that, but then I went and got the heartless person. I don't know whether you looked past my rant or not but this was indeed a very respectable response to my rant. I thank you Sir for being a cool-headed person and not trying to insult my intelligence, like some others I will not dare mention.

At no point in time did I insult you or your intelligence. I pointed out a fundamental flaw in your statement that otherwise may have influenced others in spite of being brushed off by you as a rant (which given your immediate defensive repsonse looks like a lot like you did solely for the purpose of leaving yourself an escape from your own words should anybody decide to argue with them). Thus far the only person who's taken anything to a personal level here is yourself. Also a fine bit of weaseling by very clearly implying an insult towards me while leaving yourself an escape by not explicitly stating it.

The fact that I did get this kind of reply kinda informs me that I may be dealing with the Youtube Bandits that defend the honor of anything they assume to be Argumentum ad Ignorantium (his words). I mean that was a straight low blow, like I just killed his cat or something.

Again, I insulted you? No actually, I didn't assume anything to be argumentum ad ignorantium, I looked at your statement and made a positive ID on that statement as argumentum ad ignorantium. Suits the form to a T. The only one taking anything personally here is you.

I'm actually more intelligent than most online forum members think I am not, sometimes I slip up every now and then, it happens, emotions I had as a kid just come swirling up and BAM i kinda just let it loose. Like the details under my username states *Badass Military Agent*, that doesn't just state towards my job in the military but towards anything I do seriously, every human in the world is allow to have a *kid moment* and if not, then damn my bad, maybe we shouldn't be talking at all then.

I'm fine with kid moments and bad arguments, as a result, I launched no attack on you personally over it. What I'm not fine with is somebody attempting to turn the argument into an attack on me because you haven't got any legitimate response to counter my statement. If you can't handle being argued with, then maybe you shouldn't talk in threads where people are likely to have opposing views.

[Xanatos]

Xanatos: To restate, the writers didn't effectivly make me care about these 6 characters. However I'll have your thoughts the next time I play though the game.
I think this comes back to values and cultural experiences. I was watching Deep Space 9 recently (forget what episode) and Sisquo said something that I think fits in well here. [context of federation not willing to help Bajoren colonies in Cardasian space]"...the problem is earth, when the admirals at starfleet HQ [SanFransoco CA, USA] look out their window they see paradise, they have forgotten what it is like have poverty, hunger or desperation..."
Clearly the stuggle depicted in FFXII means something more to you than just a story within a game.
(I know you familier with star trek xanatos, ds9?)

I'm huge fan of Star Trek franchise, Deep Space 9 is far from my favorite entree, still, I'm familiar with the quote, which by the way doesn't fit well when it comes to characters of Final Fantasy XII. My experience helped me understand characters of Final Fantasy XII, and their motives more than some, that's true indeed, still, you really don't need to go through what I've been to understand that every one of those characters had more than strong motives. If someone precious to you was in huge danger, wouldn't that be a good enough motive to help them, one thing is not to care for characters, but to question their motives is something else.

When you look at it, their motives were no different than those of characters from earlier titles, to defend something or someone precious to you, in Final Fantasy XII it was both, though unlike some of earlier titles, this time everyone was evolved not just main characters.

Jeesh lol
Music I will say is definitely not on par with the others, one of the worst in the series next to FF13.
All FF gives you open spaces, but to a limit of the overhead view, tho there were reasons lol

In your opinion it may be the worst one, fact is though, music of Final Fantasy XII was highly praised, it's considered to be one of it's strongest points.

I do hope you know what huge open spaces are, freedom in general? What you mentioned there is a world map, miniature version of actual world, freedom is there, though still limited. Final Fantasy XII doesn't offer a miniature version of it's own world, everything you see is in it's natural scale, nor does it restrict you to one linear path with images as background, aka. fake feel of depth.

ANd if you meant the broken fighting system of FF12? My gambits were perfect at level 7. I swear I couldn't lose. WHich deducts the difficulty

You couldn't lose? And What kind of opponents were you fighting? Ever tried tackling Saurian with your perfect gambits and party at level 7, you can find him right at the start in Dalmasca Estersand. I assume you also had easy time defeating Elder Wyrm, Omega Weapon, Anima, Yiazmat, Zodiark...

The reason why some people hate FF12 is because it strayed too far from what FF is known for, same with FF13.

Final Fantasy VII strayed more from original concept than Final Fantasy XII, Final Fantasy VIII as well. Thing is, there's no original concept. Every Final Fantasy is different on it's own, and thank God for that. Battle system featured in Final Fantasy XII is similar to it's predecessors as it's still based on ATB, sure, the battles are more dynamic now, but it's the same old ATB system, people still moan about it. Final Fantasy XII is set in more fantasy world than some of it's predecessors, it has more tributes to Final Fantasy franchise than all of it's predecessors, people still moan about it. Thing is, people will always moan, even when there's no reason for it.

I liked FF12, I liked the openness, but the characters were the single most redundant characters I have ever seen next to most of the FF13 cast. If the characters actually showed enough emotion to care about the potential war than maybe I would adore it. I mean, the PAL edition gave you classes, not the NA which bites @$$ lol.

One of us played different game it seems, characters cared, and were rather determined to stop the war, petty you didn't notice the obvious. Basch fought against his own brother, Balthier against his own father. Ashe held ultimate power in her hand, a mean to stop the war, fact that it could harm her own nation, cause countless of casualties prevented her from using it. Even some NPC-s showed their determination, Reedas, former dog of Arcadia, Nabudis's dark messenger, scarified his own life so other may have chance to fight back. Larsa was prepared to fight against his own brother, if needed.

I just wish they perhaps were to fix the studio sounding Voice acting. You know, when I was in the giza plains, they still sounded like they were in a closed room.

Can't say I encountered the same issue, you're probably the first one to point such problem. Is that the only instance, does the same issue appear anywhere else?

And get rid of vaan and penelo. EVen balthier and Fran.
Vaan and penelo basically got dragged into the storyline. Balthier and Fran had little to nothing to do with the story. The only important characters were Basch and Ashelia. Even what's his face at the beginning was better

Balthier didn't have anything to do with the story? With that sentence alone you showed how limited your knowledge is, as far as Final Fantasy XII goes. You do know that Balthier's nation, even his own father, were responsible for countless of casualties, grief, and sorrow. During the events of Final Fantasy XII Balthier decided to fight against his own nation, he faced, and defeated his own father, also known as Cidolfus Demen Bunansa who was a huge asset to Arcadian Empire, Balthier acted as a hero multiple times, prepared to sacrifice his own life in the end so other may live.

May you like it or not, Vaan was part of the story, be it planed or last minute add on. It's another pair of sleeves that you prefer cliched protagonists who are capable of saving the world on their own. Vaan was a regular fellow, with strong motives, and interesting persona, a part of strong group, rather than one man's sidekick.

If we're to look at it in such manner, by your own logic, the only important characters in Final Fantasy VII are Cloud, and Sephiroth, Squall, and Rinoa in Final Fantasy VIII, Zidane, and Garnet would be in Final Fantasy IX, and so on...if you catch my drift.

[JuzamDjinn]

No, not FFXII. Us.
Scince You've experienced [legitimate] war, or atleast known it to be close to home, your views opression and tyranna will be different from someone like me who hasn't.


Anyway, so stay on topic.
FFVII is better

[Angel of Iniquity]

In your opinion it may be the worst one, fact is though, music of Final Fantasy XII was highly praised, it's considered to be one of it's strongest points.

I do hope you know what huge open spaces are, freedom in general? What you mentioned there is a world map, miniature version of actual world, freedom is there, though still limited. Final Fantasy XII doesn't offer a miniature version of it's own world, everything you see is in it's natural scale, nor does it restrict you to one linear path with images as background, aka. fake feel of depth.



You couldn't lose? And What kind of opponents were you fighting? Ever tried tackling Saurian with your perfect gambits and party at level 7, you can find him right at the start in Dalmasca Estersand. I assume you also had easy time defeating Elder Wyrm, Omega Weapon, Anima, Yiazmat, Zodiark...



Final Fantasy VII strayed more from original concept than Final Fantasy XII, Final Fantasy VIII as well. Thing is, there's no original concept. Every Final Fantasy is different on it's own, and thank God for that. Battle system featured in Final Fantasy XII is similar to it's predecessors as it's still based on ATB, sure, the battles are more dynamic now, but it's the same old ATB system, people still moan about it. Final Fantasy XII is set in more fantasy world than some of it's predecessors, it has more tributes to Final Fantasy franchise than all of it's predecessors, people still moan about it. Thing is, people will always moan, even when there's no reason for it.



One of us played different game it seems, characters cared, and were rather determined to stop the war, petty you didn't notice the obvious. Basch fought against his own brother, Balthier against his own father. Ashe held ultimate power in her hand, a mean to stop the war, fact that it could harm her own nation, cause countless of casualties prevented her from using it. Even some NPC-s showed their determination, Reedas, former dog of Arcadia, Nabudis's dark messenger, scarified his own life so other may have chance to fight back. Larsa was prepared to fight against his own brother, if needed.



Can't say I encountered the same issue, you're probably the first one to point such problem. Is that the only instance, does the same issue appear anywhere else?



Balthier didn't have anything to do with the story? With that sentence alone you showed how limited your knowledge is, as far as Final Fantasy XII goes. You do know that Balthier's nation, even his own father, were responsible for countless of casualties, grief, and sorrow. During the events of Final Fantasy XII Balthier decided to fight against his own nation, he faced, and defeated his own father, also known as Cidolfus Demen Bunansa who was a huge asset to Arcadian Empire, Balthier acted as a hero multiple times, prepared to sacrifice his own life in the end so other may live.

May you like it or not, Vaan was part of the story, be it planed or last minute add on. It's another pair of sleeves that you prefer cliched protagonists who are capable of saving the world on their own. Vaan was a regular fellow, with strong motives, and interesting persona, a part of strong group, rather than one man's sidekick.

If we're to look at it in such manner, by your own logic, the only important characters in Final Fantasy VII are Cloud, and Sephiroth, Squall, and Rinoa in Final Fantasy VIII, Zidane, and Garnet would be in Final Fantasy IX, and so on...if you catch my drift.

Sorry, I don't know how to quote individual phrases so I'll try to keep it as clean as possible...


Music- Well it was most praised due to it's technicalities much like FF13, tho you may never hear most fans even name a FF12 song. I do like near the water, port of balfonheim and Battle for freedom tho.

Freedom- Yea, your right. Something FF13 is lacking horribly. The only thing I don't like is certain arduous areas like the great crystal or the ogir yensa when the openness takes your brain away... o.o

Difficulty- I mean in standards to what level you are. Yazmat? No problem at level 80s. Omega was a little challenging, but I didn't die. And the dino, well, that's like fighting emerald weapon at low levels, it is something you are not supposed to fight yet. All you really have to do is buy allot of phoenix downs, which I had 99 before I escaped the prison. The one where you fight the mimic queen. Then put it as the first gambit and as long as you are in correct leveling, you won't die. Funny thing you brought up elder wyrm... I hate him though... >.>

Originality- I meant the battling system where you don't have to do anything. and current walking monsters on field. It was cool but it all had a dusty feel, with animations and graphics. Actually by the animations, FFX had more detailing.

Characters- Well the characters didn't show enough emotion. I meant Vaan and penelo more than the others. About balthier tho, you don't find his motivation till Arcadia which is long into the game. He is basically just there till that part. I liked the subsidiary characters, they were more interesting. I was hoping reddas was gunna be a party character but nope >.>

Sound- I read why the sound is different on another forum, but I forgot. Yep, it is everywhere, maybe that's why I don't like the characters much cause the sound is of horrible quality. I remember on phon coast, I was expecting something like FFX's voice acting but... It was muted harshly, or maybe cause I been playing PIano for 7-8 years my perception of tonality is strong lol

Well, the only characters that need to be in the main party are the characters that have direct influence on the story progression.
Seplhie was pointless really about halfway through, same with Irvine halfway through. Quina... do we even need to say? Mog and umaro are more easter eggs but ya catch my drift lol. Vaan and penelo, other than penelos peach syndrome, had no direct influence on the storyline other than Last minute discussions. Most NPC's out of rabrenaster talked to ashe and Basch more than Vaan

[Zidane77]

I don't agree the music in this game is one of the best factors.
I think it's crap at times, like Rabanastre and lowtown or whatever, just plainly sucked and failed. Could've been good but felt it was incomplete.
The music is fine at times, i like it's not always the same music in fights, that is really good. And i don't hate the music, i just thought it was better in all games before that one (except X-2).
And the characters and storyline was pretty messed up but Balthier and Fran were pretty fresh, but it lacked so many things in motivation,storyline, something that FFVII has in so many ways,way more than this game could handle.

So that's why i don't think they're comparable, XII doesn't even come close in my opinion.
Although it ain't bad (i've played it for over 500 hours), it has great graphics compared to the earlier ones, decent music and fun battle system,collectables and side-quests.
Still i think it's a little bit above X-2.

[Xanatos]

Music- Well it was most praised due to it's technicalities much like FF13, tho you may never hear most fans even name a FF12 song. I do like near the water, port of balfonheim and Battle for freedom tho.

Technicality? Care to elaborate that a bit more.

Music was praised because it was actually good, to quote one of the reviewers "I actually don't feel the absence of Nobuo Uematsu".

Freedom- Yea, your right. Something FF13 is lacking horribly. The only thing I don't like is certain arduous areas like the great crystal or the ogir yensa when the openness takes your brain away... o.o

Not just Final Fantasy XIII, after playing Final Fantasy XII every game in franchise feels restricted, and linear.

Difficulty- I mean in standards to what level you are. Yazmat? No problem at level 80s. Omega was a little challenging, but I didn't die. And the dino, well, that's like fighting emerald weapon at low levels, it is something you are not supposed to fight yet. All you really have to do is buy allot of phoenix downs, which I had 99 before I escaped the prison. The one where you fight the mimic queen. Then put it as the first gambit and as long as you are in correct leveling, you won't die. Funny thing you brought up elder wyrm... I hate him though... >.>

I can't get rid of this impression that you actually haven't played Final Fantasy XII. You do know Yiazmat is the biggest challenge not just in Final Fantasy XII, but in the entire franchise as well. Battle alone lasts five hours, and that's if you're excellent at it, if not, add couple of hours more. Skilled players, with maxed characters, best equipment, and well set gambits, have difficulties defeating Yiazmat, and you're telling me that he's no problem with characters at level 80. Omega Weapon, little challenging? Now I know that you're full of shit. If you need that quantity of phoenix down's, what does that tell you about game's difficulty.

Originality- I meant the battling system where you don't have to do anything. and current walking monsters on field. It was cool but it all had a dusty feel, with animations and graphics. Actually by the animations, FFX had more detailing.

In which manner you chose to set gambits is entirely up to you, the game itself can't be blamed if you chose to set gambits so characters would grind on their own, the game gave you an option, it's up to you to chose which one you prefer, simple as that.

It's been a while since I had a good laugh, you do know that Final Fantasy XII is one of the best if not the best looking game on PS2, it's animations, and cut scenes are better looking, and more detailed than those in Final Fantasy X, common sense really.

Characters- Well the characters didn't show enough emotion. I meant Vaan and penelo more than the others. About balthier tho, you don't find his motivation till Arcadia which is long into the game. He is basically just there till that part. I liked the subsidiary characters, they were more interesting. I was hoping reddas was gunna be a party character but nope >.>

Not enough emotions? I really do hope you know what emotions are, joy, sadness, anger, anticipation, just to name few. Now, how the hell you missed to see those, and more, in characters of Final Fantasy XII. Vaan showed his emotions more than any character in Final Fantasy XII, anger, and saddens in quite a few occasions, and I really don't need to point that he was cheerfuller and light hearted fellow, which he showed through entire game.

By your logic Balthier is far from good character since his motives are revealed to player halfway through the game, if so, we should cross quite a few characters my friend, few protagonist as well, as they usually obtain real motives halfway through the game. Take Squall for instance, for majority of game he fought because he was ordered to, only later he started to care for his friends, and fell in love with Rinoa, thus decided to fight because he wanted to protect them, what a lame character, right?

Sound- I read why the sound is different on another forum, but I forgot. Yep, it is everywhere, maybe that's why I don't like the characters much cause the sound is of horrible quality. I remember on phon coast, I was expecting something like FFX's voice acting but... It was muted harshly, or maybe cause I been playing PIano for 7-8 years my perception of tonality is strong lol

You do know that sound includes both music, and voice acting. Final Fantasy XII is praised for both, especially the voice acting, many, including those who dislike Final Fantasy XII, consider it to be a huge step forward, superior to the one from Final Fantasy X. Do you really think no one would notice issue of such caliber, especially if it was in a popular game as Final Fantasy XII.

Well, the only characters that need to be in the main party are the characters that have direct influence on the story progression.
Seplhie was pointless really about halfway through, same with Irvine halfway through. Quina... do we even need to say? Mog and umaro are more easter eggs but ya catch my drift lol. Vaan and penelo, other than penelos peach syndrome, had no direct influence on the storyline other than Last minute discussions. Most NPC's out of rabrenaster talked to ashe and Basch more than Vaan

Well then, Square would need to remove quite a few characters. You're right you know, we should remove Vaan from the game, how rude of Square to put character which player can easily relate to, character who experienced harsh side of Arcadian conquest, to illustrate what it means when regular fellow stands against tyranny, character who's not cliched, far from smartass, curious and willing to learn, instead they should have gone with cliched protagonist, angsty teen with bigass sword and inhuman strength, intelligent, and capable right from the start, leader who often makes doubtful, rather stupid decisions, thus leading his party in deathly situations, but they still follow him for unknown reason, yes, that's better, Square should have gone with such character. I'm sure you would adore him or her.

[JuzamDjinn]

Music was praised because it was actually good, to quote one of the reviewers "I actually don't feel the absence of Nobuo Uematsu".

Not just Final Fantasy XIII, after playing Final Fantasy XII every game in franchise feels restricted, and linear.

Not enough emotions? I really do hope you know what emotions are, joy, sadness, anger, anticipation, just to name few. Now, how the hell you missed to see those, and more, in characters of Final Fantasy XII. Vaan showed his emotions more than any character in Final Fantasy XII, anger, and saddens in quite a few occasions, and I really don't need to point that he was cheerfuller and light hearted fellow, which he showed through entire game.

I thought the music was really good too in this one. funny you should mention the quote. The boss theme had measures from the FFVII boss music.

All non MMO games feel restriced after playing MMOs.

o0Odin0o: don't bother trying to have an opinion about these characters.

[Angel of Iniquity]

Technicality? Care to elaborate that a bit more.

Music was praised because it was actually good, to quote one of the reviewers "I actually don't feel the absence of Nobuo Uematsu".



Not just Final Fantasy XIII, after playing Final Fantasy XII every game in franchise feels restricted, and linear.



I can't get rid of this impression that you actually haven't played Final Fantasy XII. You do know Yiazmat is the biggest challenge not just in Final Fantasy XII, but in the entire franchise as well. Battle alone lasts five hours, and that's if you're excellent at it, if not, add couple of hours more. Skilled players, with maxed characters, best equipment, and well set gambits, have difficulties defeating Yiazmat, and you're telling me that he's no problem with characters at level 80. Omega Weapon, little challenging? Now I know that you're full of shit. If you need that quantity of phoenix down's, what does that tell you about game's difficulty.



In which manner you chose to set gambits is entirely up to you, the game itself can't be blamed if you chose to set gambits so characters would grind on their own, the game gave you an option, it's up to you to chose which one you prefer, simple as that.

It's been a while since I had a good laugh, you do know that Final Fantasy XII is one of the best if not the best looking game on PS2, it's animations, and cut scenes are better looking, and more detailed than those in Final Fantasy X, common sense really.



Not enough emotions? I really do hope you know what emotions are, joy, sadness, anger, anticipation, just to name few. Now, how the hell you missed to see those, and more, in characters of Final Fantasy XII. Vaan showed his emotions more than any character in Final Fantasy XII, anger, and saddens in quite a few occasions, and I really don't need to point that he was cheerfuller and light hearted fellow, which he showed through entire game.

By your logic Balthier is far from good character since his motives are revealed to player halfway through the game, if so, we should cross quite a few characters my friend, few protagonist as well, as they usually obtain real motives halfway through the game. Take Squall for instance, for majority of game he fought because he was ordered to, only later he started to care for his friends, and fell in love with Rinoa, thus decided to fight because he wanted to protect them, what a lame character, right?



You do know that sound includes both music, and voice acting. Final Fantasy XII is praised for both, especially the voice acting, many, including those who dislike Final Fantasy XII, consider it to be a huge step forward, superior to the one from Final Fantasy X. Do you really think no one would notice issue of such caliber, especially if it was in a popular game as Final Fantasy XII.



Well then, Square would need to remove quite a few characters. You're right you know, we should remove Vaan from the game, how rude of Square to put character which player can easily relate to, character who experienced harsh side of Arcadian conquest, to illustrate what it means when regular fellow stands against tyranny, character who's not cliched, far from smartass, curious and willing to learn, instead they should have gone with cliched protagonist, angsty teen with bigass sword and inhuman strength, intelligent, and capable right from the start, leader who often makes doubtful, rather stupid decisions, thus leading his party in deathly situations, but they still follow him for unknown reason, yes, that's better, Square should have gone with such character. I'm sure you would adore him or her.

Angry much? Well allot of things I have posted have LITERAL technical reasons, not just opinionated reasons so your opinion is worthless in certain manors, but here goes nothing... again ^^

Round two with more descriptions behind it

Music: Music in a technical sense could not have been as technically superior in the 8-bit era than FF12's. But the lack of set themes and lack of forced themes makes certain areas of the game less symbolic. Plus the lack of mutual harmonies kinda screws certain potentially great sounding "themes" off, but that's an opinion.

World: Hmm, well that can be argued a sense of opinion and personal taste but, being open and non-linear, most FF games are. Care to elaborate on that?

Difficulty: Yes I know who the heck yazmat is. He was not difficult, more of an endurance challenge. If you mean the last 1/3 of his HP when his lv increases to 140 something, still, not much of a challenge. Did I die? No.
Enemies like Zodiark, Elder Wyrm, Famfrit, and omega gave me challenge before hand cause I underestimated them for wiping out the normal enemies before hand. However Yazmat I expected a challenge, and guess what, I only used 4 of 6 characters to win. Am I master of the game? Damn right, I went a solo run with basch and did a 122333 challenge as well so I'm not a troll when it comes to the game. Not mentioning a redundant final battle that showed little difficulty.

*laughs* Well, squall had a reason to be in the party at all times. His overall final mission was found out later. Unlike Balthier, who what, wanted to steal something, then got dragged until Arcadia? Or Bur omisace at least.

That thing you said, about not having my characters set up like grinding beasts was a little... dunce lol. What else is the battle system used for? You put attack, heal, revive, use set magic and bleh. If you have a good overall strategy, than you=win.

They used a different graphics system so don't laugh if you don't understand. Why? People who know what I am talking about in a technical standpoint will laugh at you. FF12 used more smoothing than pinned detailing of FFX. So, unless you like smoother graphics and a palette that's based on orange and blue, which also helps the blur effect, than you have bad eyes, or just don't care to compare, or a FF12 fanboy lol

And coming into emotions... I know ALOT about emotions, trust me. I am currently into the psychology of fear, but have studied in Emotions and Beauty. That game had horrible emotional IQ, why did they overreact in comparative to the certain situation or not in others? Bad reasoning skills and everything tho that could have just been due to the writers EIQ's or something Idk lol.

Voice acting: There is another technical flaw of yours. There are reasons why it sounds muted, but I forgot the reasons. If you cannot hear the mute sounds of the voicing, then damn lol. But really, it has something to do with the panning of voice and wear they voice recorded. THey reduced the BG sound and increased the Voice acting and with the horrible recording, muted the tones of the characters making them sound... like they have cotton balls in their throat. Look up on it before you make anymore... Dunce "opinions."

Again you put your opinions in others mouths. We can relate too? No no no no no. People relate to those with similar personalities. Unless your personality is abnormal. Or extremely abstract then... And actually, what sounds cooler in all reality. A character with a cool sword, and current generations dogma of "cool," or a random character that most would walk by in real life.

Oh and, I never got past the materia keeper in FF7 and actually hate it soo...

Before you reply with harsh or hardened words or latin phrases (^o^), I meant no direct offense, just arguing opinions and or showing literal flaws in your opinions.
Example. "I like horses that are born blue and have horns". Obviously a opinion but there are obviously reasons to digress lol

[Angel of Iniquity]

Sorry to double post, really am but how due I quote individual sections?