My assault on Cloud Strife (Spoilers for the five people who haven't played this)

[Antidrall]

I have criticized FF7 quite a bit in my time I have graced the earth with my presence, but I promise this will be my 50th to last time.

Cloud was one of the things that took down the series. Before FF7, it was gamers and RPGers only. but once people saw the cover and commercials to the game, it attracted a new, strange form of creature. The otaku. This whole anime style of character design and melodramatic scripts is what otaku loved, and they needed to survive. The spiky blonde hair, the single pauldron even though he uses two handed weapon, and the weapon itself.

The Buster sword is an extremely useless weapon unless you had the physique of a jacked up Lou Ferrigno. Now, if you were to ask a combat oriented person what the largest sword would have to be, most would say a Scottish claymore. These were commonly 6 to 7 pounds. That is pretty effin' heavy for a weapon. Now look at The Buster sword. That has got to weigh at least 30-45 pounds. That's not going to happen. Now I can hear you saying "Antidrall, you Japanophobe! Cloud's a SOLDIER! He has super strength and everything! gravity is just a suggestion for him!". First off, I'm not a Japanophobe. Japan is home to my second favorite warriors, the Samurai. second, If he's super strong, then where the hell are his muscles? In all of the cutscenes we see his about as physically fit as Micheal Cera, but he can use a sword that would break his back? Now to the best of my knowledge, hundereds of anime have had characters using weaponry that'd make blacksmiths scratch their heads. And Cloud's isn't necessarily the worst. It's just a blanketed statement saying "Yeah, this shit is just not going to happen." Seriously, try looking up a sword replica website and find a to scale model of the sword, no swordsmith is going to the effort of making a weapon, no matter how big of a fanboy they are, is not going to go through the effort of making a sword that improbable!

His character is what gets me the most. People say that he's such a deep and understandable character when he just plain isn't. When we first start as him, he's an asshole, constantly demanding his money, and insulting his comrades. He even acts this way in front of his childhood friend. In Crisis core, we learn that after Zack dies, Cloud takes his sword, and is apparently experimented on by Hojo...for some reason, he's a scientist, it's their job to **** with nature. And this causes a cosmic coincidence that plants him with Zack's memories, replacing him with Zack and all interactions between Zack and other characters being done with him. Now, that is a cruel joke played on him by some celestial forces if you ask me. Also, if he got Zack's personality, why is he such a Jack hat? In Crisis Core, Zack was basically a boy scout, always looking to help out and everything. But as said above, Cloud was demanding more money from Barrett who's saving the extra money for Marlene to go to school. But after his Nu metal induced coma, he becomes even worse, totally emotionless. Sephiroth was calling him a puppet before? Now he's the very definition of the word. any interactions with the story made it felt as though he was just blankly looking at stuff, saying the most obvious statements. We're not given any personality besides bland, I know, some are saying "well what do you think? he just found out he's basically been walking around as a cosplay of a SOLDIER!" Well, little Squeenix fanboy, I too would be humiliated if I ever cosplayed, but I would also give a shit that the world is going to go Armageddon style, and Bruce Willis isn't available! Seriously, go back and play that game, I just got off it recently, and he was totally emotionless, like me whenever I'm presented with a dead relative. Don't even get me started on the movie where it was cemented that he was emo. I don't like using that word because it makes me sound like a little 15 year old punk, but I'm saying it. Cloud Strife is now and eternally an Emo.

Well there you have it, my short rant on why I don't like Cloud. Which isn't to say that I despise him. There's some moments in the first disc where he was legitimately badass, but he is still a weak character. I could however write a novel on why Tidus can promptly be piledrived off of the chrysler building.

[Unknown Entity]

I have criticized FF7 quite a bit in my time I have graced the earth with my presence, but I promise this will be my 50th to last time.

Oh dear.

Cloud was one of the things that took down the series. Before FF7, it was gamers and RPGers only. but once people saw the cover and commercials to the game, it attracted a new, strange form of creature. The otaku. This whole anime style of character design and melodramatic scripts is what otaku loved, and they needed to survive. The spiky blonde hair, the single pauldron even though he uses two handed weapon, and the weapon itself.

Okay, cut to the chase... That's just how he was designed. Big deal. His hair is greatly tuned down after FFVII.

The Buster sword is an extremely useless weapon unless you had the physique of a jacked up Lou Ferrigno. Now, if you were to ask a combat oriented person what the largest sword would have to be, most would say a Scottish claymore. These were commonly 6 to 7 pounds. That is pretty effin' heavy for a weapon. Now look at The Buster sword. That has got to weigh at least 30-45 pounds. That's not going to happen. Now I can hear you saying "Antidrall, you Japanophobe! Cloud's a SOLDIER! He has super strength and everything! gravity is just a suggestion for him!".

Honestly, I'd say Barret's gun are was pretty stupid in terms of what it'd be like in real life. The diameter of that gun is larger than the diameter of his arm. Not only would Barret need a large arm to house the gun, but he'd also need a lot of muscle to hold it up - which is what he has got, but that's besides the point. It's a large gun, it's probably heavy, and there's no way something that big would fit inside someone's arm - it's bigger than his head for crying out load! And yet people look at Cloud and comment on the sword as if it's not possible?

It's also probably not as heavy as it seems. I mean, I can't say - I'm not a video game character. My point is, it's just a game. It's not based on what is possible in real life.

First off, I'm not a Japanophobe. Japan is home to my second favorite warriors, the Samurai.

May I ask what hating on Cloud has to do with being a Japanophobe and liking Samurai?

Seriously, try looking up a sword replica website and find a to scale model of the sword, no swordsmith is going to the effort of making a weapon, no matter how big of a fanboy they are, is not going to go through the effort of making a sword that improbable!

Look, if someone wants a sword replica that bad, there's bound to be come crazy ass, metal nerd out there willing to make one if the price is right. You're looking at £50+ just for a replica made out of base metal and plastic.

Also, it's one of the best known swords in the Final Fantasy universe. For a basic idea, everyone seems to know what it is, right?

His character is what gets me the most. People say that he's such a deep and understandable character when he just plain isn't.

People say a lot of things. Like Twilight for example; big fans of the series would call it a vampire "romance" novel, whereas some would call it complete and utter anti-feminist garbage. If that's the way people see it, then fair enough - we all have our own interpretations, but that doesn't give the call to really hate it either way.

When we first start as him, he's an asshole, constantly demanding his money, and insulting his comrades.

Well yeah, I'd demand my goddamn money too. Cloud is an arrogant mercenary type - what do you expect? If I'd just done a job, and my contractor was stalling with the payroll, I'd be a little pissed off and act like a jerk. If Barretcouldn't afford to pay him (which you more or less pick up when Barret saying the money was for Marlene's schooling), he shouldn't have got Cloud involved on the job.

How would you feel if you'd just risked life and limb, or a ticket to jail for blowing up a large mega corporation's reactor, then started picking up hints that you wouldn't get the pay you were promised?

In Crisis core, we learn that after Zack dies, Cloud takes his sword, and is apparently experimented on by Hojo...for some reason, he's a scientist, it's their job to **** with nature.

In that order? Really? They both had experiments done to them. I can't remember the entire story, but Zack and Cloud were held in the basement of the Shinra Mansion and experimented on in the glass tubes there. They managed to escape during food time, which Cloud was very out of it and had to be carried by Zack. They managed to hitch a ride to Midgar, and just outside they were attacked by the Shinra which is when Zack dies. Cloud takes the sword, and makes his way to Midgar alone.

And this causes a cosmic coincidence that plants him with Zack's memories, replacing him with Zack and all interactions between Zack and other characters being done with him. Now, that is a cruel joke played on him by some celestial forces if you ask me. Also, if he got Zack's personality, why is he such a Jack hat?

They were friends, and spent a year on the run together when they escaped. Zack wasn't effected by the mako he was forced to injure because (I think) he was a SOLDIER. Cloud, however, wasn't so he was comatose. Zack constantly talked to Cloud throughout their journey to Midgar. When you're in hospital, some people say that when you're unconscious, you might remember some of the things people say to you. It's possible that happened with Cloud, and he didn't necessarily take on Zack's memories in a physical term - just mentally through what he remembered Zack telling him.

He didn't get Zack's "personality". Just his thoughts and memories. Cloud is Cloud, just with someone else's thoughts and turns of events.

But after his Nu metal induced coma, he becomes even worse, totally emotionless. Sephiroth was calling him a puppet before? Now he's the very definition of the word.

You'd resemble a puppet too if you were comatose.

We're not given any personality besides bland, I know, some are saying "well what do you think? he just found out he's basically been walking around as a cosplay of a SOLDIER!" Well, little Squeenix fanboy, I too would be humiliated if I ever cosplayed, but I would also give a shit that the world is going to go Armageddon style, and Bruce Willis isn't available!

What is this I don't even? Firstly, the "little Squeenix fanboy"s would be half right. He's finally seeing things HIS way. I'd be a bit obvious too. Cloud isn't like Barret or Cid, who'll jump into something before they look.

Seriously, go back and play that game, I just got off it recently, and he was totally emotionless, like me whenever I'm presented with a dead relative. Don't even get me started on the movie where it was cemented that he was emo. I don't like using that word because it makes me sound like a little 15 year old punk, but I'm saying it. Cloud Strife is now and eternally an Emo.

...so what if he is? Is he harming you? Cloud was depressed as he'd witnessed the death of someone he liked (or, godforbid, loved) and had spent the last two years blaming himself for it. Vincent is the same, isn't he? Except he'd been blaming himself for Lucrecia for much, much longer. Yet no one will call him out on his bullshit. >>;

Well there you have it, my short rant on why I don't like Cloud. Which isn't to say that I despise him. There's some moments in the first disc where he was legitimately badass, but he is still a weak character.

You don't like Cloud because anime fans get a boner over him, he has a big sword which isn't possible to wield, he's arrogant and an ass about asking for his hard earned money (which WAS what he was promised, and isn't his fault Barret had difficulty paying up), and because he ends up somewhat emotionless for the rest of the game when he finds out who he is after witnessing the death of Aeris, and constantly blames himself for it?

He just seems normal to me.

I could however write a novel on why Tidus can promptly be piledrived off of the chrysler building.

I won't even bother to defend Tidus on that one. He has everything coming to him.

[loaf]

All I gotta say about the sword is this.

In Dissidia Cloud says the sword isn't heavy. Thus, Sword isn't heavy, sword can happen.

[Victoria]

This is me nit picking semantics, but you talk about otaku like they're just anime nerds or whatever.

Well, otaku is actually an insult. ...In Japan, anyway. It means you're obsessed with something. I don't know why the US coined the term for anime alone, so I won't even get into that.

But from where I stand, you seem to be an anti-cloud/FF7 otaku. ;p
Yeah.. Entity pretty much hit it on the head. Cloud seems like a normal person to me. *shrug*

And in the end, it's just a video game that people play to escape reality, so... who cares what's realistic or not. Suspension of disbelief. (Although that itself has its limits, but that's not the point.)

[Rhaps]

Mako is the life blood of the planet, and when it crystallizes, it become Materia. Materia allows the use of magic and other abilities. Seems like being bathed in Mako would then supercharge your cells with this magic instead of bulking them in mass, no?

Also, I've looked into the sword replica before this. I even price quoted a replica for Genesis Rhapsodos' sword. $1k and up, he said the handle would be nearly impossible.

It wasn't a cosmic event that gave him Zack's memories. It was Zack saying "Be my living legacy," which triggered Cloud's mako-strung brain to combine any and all memories of Zack with his own memories, hence why he isn't a perfect boy scout.
--
Entity beat me to picking apart your post first ; - ;

[ZantetsukeN]

Unknown Entity basically nailed everything I was going to say. The only thing I will say is picking on something you said at the end, where you said you like where he was a 'legitimate bad ass' in some moments of disc 1, and stating you like that.

So, you would rather he was just a 2 dimensional hard-man typed character throughout then? I mean you make a post dedicated to how you hate how emo he is etc etc, but really this shows that you'd rather have a character with 2 dimensions, who shows no emotion. Cloud shows a good deal of development throughout the story. He has a backstory (which you got wrong by the way, learn facts before bash) that haunts him throughout. If you were experimented on, forced on the run, and then had to watch your best friend die, wouldn't you be haunted by that?

I think Cloud is possibly one of the best developed characters in the FF series, let alone just 7. I'm just bored of people like you bashing him every chance you get, for reasons that seem stupid to me. He is a video game character.

Also, you're not a Japanaphobe because you like samauri? Wow, well done.

[Antidrall]

Honestly, I'd say Barret's gun are was pretty stupid in terms of what it'd be like in real life. The diameter of that gun is larger than the diameter of his arm. Not only would Barret need a large arm to house the gun, but he'd also need a lot of muscle to hold it up - which is what he has got, but that's besides the point. It's a large gun, it's probably heavy, and there's no way something that big would fit inside someone's arm - it's bigger than his head for crying out load! And yet people look at Cloud and comment on the sword as if it's not possible?

I've brought this exact point with the gun up with another fan of the game too. I also mentioned the lack of a visible trigger, firing system, and source of ammo. When he said that the gun could be fired with a brain implant, I almost punched him.

It's also probably not as heavy as it seems. I mean, I can't say - I'm not a video game character. My point is, it's just a game. It's not based on what is possible in real life.

This part with the sword was admittedly Nitpicky, but since I mentioned it in the opening paragraph, I thought I might as well. But look at the art in the manual and in other games. In dissidia, we see that the blunt edge of the sword is at least a quarter inch wide. The blade is at least 5 and a half feet long, and the sharp edge is extremely thin. If someone was able to lift that weapon, it'd get dull really quickly.

May I ask what hating on Cloud has to do with being a Japanophobe and liking Samurai?

...Weak attempt at a joke.

People say a lot of things. Like Twilight for example; big fans of the series would call it a vampire "romance" novel, whereas some would call it complete and utter anti-feminist garbage. If that's the way people see it, then fair enough - we all have our own interpretations, but that doesn't give the call to really hate it either way.

This part is because of a friend of mine's friend on Xbox live who keeps talking about Cloud as if he was the most complex and interesting person ever in fiction. I'll admit, it's not right to cast everyone into the generalization, but the more people like that I meet, the more I believe that all fans of the game are like this.

Well yeah, I'd demand my goddamn money too. Cloud is an arrogant mercenary type - what do you expect? If I'd just done a job, and my contractor was stalling with the payroll, I'd be a little pissed off and act like a jerk. If Barret couldn't afford to pay him (which you more or less pick up when Barret saying the money was for Marlene's schooling), he shouldn't have got Cloud involved on the job.

As for this, we see in Crisis Core that Cloud was even more of a boyscout than Zack. He was disappointed that he didn't get accepted into soldier, sure, but he wasn't the kind of person who'd deprive a little girl from a chance of learning and knowledge.

How would you feel if you'd just risked life and limb, or a ticket to jail for blowing up a large mega corporation's reactor, then started picking up hints that you wouldn't get the pay you were promised?

...Let's just say it sucks to have a conscience.

In that order? Really? They both had experiments done to them. I can't remember the entire story, but Zack and Cloud were held in the basement of the Shinra Mansion and experimented on in the glass tubes there. They managed to escape during food time, which Cloud was very out of it and had to be carried by Zack. They managed to hitch a ride to Midgar, and just outside they were attacked by the Shinra which is when Zack dies. Cloud takes the sword, and makes his way to Midgar alone.

Okay, It was a while a go when I played Crisis Core, so my chronology was a little mixed up. In the article I found online on the Final Fantasy Wiki, it said after Zack died, Hojo's experimentation on him made him part Zack or whatever. So, context was kind of screwed up.

They were friends, and spent a year on the run together when they escaped. Zack wasn't effected by the mako he was forced to injure because (I think) he was a SOLDIER. Cloud, however, wasn't so he was comatose. Zack constantly talked to Cloud throughout their journey to Midgar. When you're in hospital, some people say that when you're unconscious, you might remember some of the things people say to you. It's possible that happened with Cloud, and he didn't necessarily take on Zack's memories in a physical term - just mentally through what he remembered Zack telling him.

He didn't get Zack's "personality". Just his thoughts and memories. Cloud is Cloud, just with someone else's thoughts and turns of events.

I still can't comprehend how he could have gained Zack's memories. Science (especially magic science) doesn't work like that. If you were talking to someone in a hospital that was comatose, I sincerely doubt that they'd wake up and think that they're the person who was talking to them, just with their own names inserted.

What is this I don't even? Firstly, the "little Squeenix fanboy"s would be half right. He's finally seeing things HIS way. I'd be a bit obvious too. Cloud isn't like Barret or Cid, who'll jump into something before they look.

This is what I'm talking about, Cloud wasn't emoting. all of his interactions with the other characters were indifferent and soap opera-esque. I don't expect him to become a party animal, but I'm pretty sure that he should have at least TRIED to act the way he did before the mind****. That's the whole reason Tifa fell into the center of the earth and into Cloud's mind right?...wait...

...so what if he is? Is he harming you? Cloud was depressed as he'd witnessed the death of someone he liked (or, godforbid, loved) and had spent the last two years blaming himself for it. Vincent is the same, isn't he? Except he'd been blaming himself for Lucrecia for much, much longer. Yet no one will call him out on his bullshit. >>;

Ugh, I regret using that word already. The thing is Cloud IS harming something. Not just me, but the medium he's in. This game was a huge hit in the US, and it was many people's first RPG. But If this was a person's first RPG, what do you think they'd expect from the series after playing this? They wouldn't expect a storytelling and strategic masterpiece like Final Fantasy Tactics or Tactics Ogre. They'd expect some more spiky haired pre teens with a "mysterious" (translation: convoluted) past off to save the world with an impractical weapon and at least one furry in his party. Does Chris Bores' pathetic attempts at proving he's a gamer not hurt the 12 year old Xbox players? Not hurt as in pain or psychological, but would you want your child to learn about gaming from someone who couldn't comprehend the true artistic and narrative merit that games can offer...Totally off track.

You don't like Cloud because anime fans get a boner over him, he has a big sword which isn't possible to wield, he's arrogant and an ass about asking for his hard earned money (which WAS what he was promised, and isn't his fault Barret had difficulty paying up), and because he ends up somewhat emotionless for the rest of the game when he finds out who he is after witnessing the death of Aeris, and constantly blames himself for it?

If someone I loved was murdered, I would go on a roaring rampage. I would tear down every single building in my way, burn down the heavens, and slay the gods that stood in my way of getting vengeance. But enough about the ****er who ran over my dog a few years ago.

Aeris' death was clearly not his fault. I've talked about this in another thread, but when she ran off to the city of the ancients, we had no idea what was going on. We didn't know she was casting holy, and we didn't know that Sephiroth was going to be there. I was thinking she was going insane, and I mean literally. When Cloud gets to the altar, he does...something, and uncontrollably raises his sword against Aeris. he snaps out of it, and didn't see Sephiroth coming down from the ceiling. There was literally no possible reaction time for him to do anything. When he's holding her while she dies, He's yelling at Sephiroth saying that Seph killed her (and whining about his feelings too). He knew that Aeris' death wasn't his fault, it was Sephiroth's.

Now, yes, there are people who blame themselves for other people dying, like in a car accident, or even a natural catastrophe. But that's called survivor's guilt, What Cloud's feeling is stupid guilt. He's feeling guilty for a death that he didn't have a chance to stop. Also, in Advent Children (a topic for another time), he's still a mopey little punk, and this is supposed to be two years later. I'm pretty sure that a lot of people would have learned to move on by then.

He just seems normal to me.

Then you have been playing FF7-13 too much.

I won't even bother to defend Tidus on that one. He has everything coming to him.

Don't tempt me. A rant on him and his game could split this entire forum in twain.

Edit: Also, Vincent doesn't get brought up because he's too damn easy, and not the main character.

[Angel of Iniquity]

*laughs*
Not to be rude but you will lose respect ranting, especially through a post, on randomness.

Okay. His hair.
It is fantasy. Nomura said he wanted a character that stood out. He got it.
Plus as somebody previously stated, his hair isn't that bad in DoC or AC.

Okay now, his sword.
Again, it is called Fantasy. How can Kain from FF4 move with all that armor? It has to be at least 40-70 lbs heavier than templar armor.
How can sword clash machines but not break, and neither does the machine, but somehow the machine looses a little functionality?
See where I am going? It is fantasy and there is nothing you can argue about physics when it comes to Fantasy.
Oh and, you don't have to have a mass of muscle to be strong. Look up Bruce lees body mechanics sometime.

His personality.
I can say little cause it is an opinion, but how you are describing it is a little confusing for it to be a plausible opinion.
He is depressed. Hmm, well, if my best friend(zack) died infront of my eyes, I would be sad. If my deep friend or somebody I had a love interest died in front of my eyes, that would sadden me. If I found out I had been living a lie, that would sadden me. If I found out I wasn't exactly normal, that would Sadden me.
As you can again see where I am going at, allot of Sh!t happened to him to warrant this attitude. Squall is in the same branch. Depressed. Which by statistics will be considered normal in about 15 years.

Nobody called you a Japanophobe. Oh and, Otaku doesn't directly mean Anime "nerd" and as again, somebody stated, Otaku isn't really a pleasant noun in Japanese hahahaha

Actually, I would love to explain why Tidus acts the way he does as well.
Actually, I have many points as to why MOST characters act the way they do from personal experiences, but I guess I credit that to psychology.

Oh and... one more thing about the swords thingy. Somebody did make a sword replica of the buster blade. He hurt his back. Slipped disc.

Also, the Zweihander blade and the Odachi were the largest blades ever.

[SOLDIER #819]

This is a pretty good troll, but it lost some believability when you started citing Crisis Core as canon. No one's going to take you seriously if you do that!

[Zargabaath]

I have criticized FF7 quite a bit in my time I have graced the earth with my presence, but I promise this will be my 50th to last time.

Damn Antidrall, you didn't pass up a chance to take a jab at FFVII and its fans but made the opportunity. Death. Taxes. Antidrall hating on FFVII and its fans.

Cloud was one of the things that took down the series. Before FF7, it was gamers and RPGers only. but once people saw the cover and commercials to the game, it attracted a new, strange form of creature. The otaku. This whole anime style of character design and melodramatic scripts is what otaku loved, and they needed to survive. The spiky blonde hair, the single pauldron even though he uses two handed weapon, and the weapon itself.

Firstly, the series is not down; it has experienced a dip recently with Final Fantasy XIV and possibly Final Fantasy XIII. Some would include Final Fantasy XII as well however, when there: are 22,000 (a great sample size) user scores at Gamespot giving the game a 9.1 average, 4,700 reader scores at IGN giving an 8.9 average, 1,500 user scores at Gametrailers giving a 9.1 average, an average community score at 1up of an "A", and a 92 average of critics at Metacritic I feel there is enough to back FFXII.

Is there something inherently wrong with anime style character designs? There wasn't any melodrama before FFVII?

The Buster sword is an extremely useless weapon unless you had the physique of a jacked up Lou Ferrigno.

Or you know... be in a fantasy setting. You do know the game is called Final Fantasy VII which is part of the Final Fantasy series? Thus the games can stretch reality a bit, but not too much. As Loaf said, in Dissidia Cloud says the sword isn't heavy. Now my friends said somewhere in Dissidia it says that the reason Cloud can wield the Buster sword because the weight of his grief, troubles, etc is more than the Buster Sword's weight. Haven't confirmed that bit of info.

Put it like this if you are going to bash Cloud for being able to wield the Buster Sword then bash fairly across the series. How does anybody survive or not have permanent damage against "Fire", "Thundaga", Blizzard 5", "Ultima", "Meteor" (how can a person summon meteors, that isn't real!!! oh snaps)? How can characters not lose appendages or die from one strike of an enemy's weapon? Where is the blood loss? How was an Esper and Human able to mate? Can humans in reality mate with something and it would come out looking just a like a normal human... with green hair? What about the Lunar Moon? Where was the atmosphere to breath? I saw no plants of that oxygen!!! What about the meteors that Galuf and co. use to travel between the two worlds? Were those meteros are tight? How they hell did the control them, much less make the lift off? How were Firion and co. able stay on the Wrym when riding into the Emperor's Tornado that destroyed towns!! That's some serious winds. Get the point? That where the "fantasy" part comes in with Final Fantasy.

I focus on the earlier games because you consider those most sacred. There are instances in the games after FFVII that are a bit wacky but that is not my focus here.

Seriously, try looking up a sword replica website and find a to scale model of the sword, no swordsmith is going to the effort of making a weapon, no matter how big of a fanboy they are, is not going to go through the effort of making a sword that improbable!

Does this count: Buster Sword replica? I would say it does, Bwahahahaha!!

His character is what gets me the most. People say that he's such a deep and understandable character when he just plain isn't. When we first start as him, he's an asshole, constantly demanding his money, and insulting his comrades.

That's not an asshole. People need to learn what real assholes are like. The player does learn a lot about Cloud throughout the game. From his view of what a SOLDIER should be, his history with Sephiroth, to his true self Cloud has layers like Ogres who are like onions. There's more to Cloud most likely I just haven't played the game in a couple of years; I can look up the script at a later time.

But after his Nu metal induced coma, he becomes even worse, totally emotionless. Sephiroth was calling him a puppet before? Now he's the very definition of the word. any interactions with the story made it felt as though he was just blankly looking at stuff, saying the most obvious statements. We're not given any personality besides bland,

His character is set, it is finalized for the most part. Is he emo or bland? Blandly emo? Is that another name for normal? I've skimmed through the script and some of the lines he has past him coming out of his coma it would be silly for him to be, "OMG why did Aeris just sit there?" *Cry* *Cry* "Why did she have to die?!?!?! WHY?!?!?!?!?! Sephiroth I hate, hate, hate, hate, hate, hate, hate, hate, hate, hate, hate, you!!!! I hate you more than Anakin hates Obi-Wan." Yeeeeaaaaah, them so good emotions.

I could however write a novel on why Tidus can promptly be piledrived off of the chrysler building.

You could try but seeing how you are with Cloud and that I've retained my knowledge on Tidus better, you won't do well.

I still can't comprehend how he could have gained Zack's memories. Science (especially magic science) doesn't work like that. If you were talking to someone in a hospital that was comatose, I sincerely doubt that they'd wake up and think that they're the person who was talking to them, just with their own names inserted.

First are you once again trying to put reality in a fantasy setting. Cloud was still "groggy" at the time of Zack's death, with Zack's final words he took them a bit too literal and became Cloud with Zack dressing. And I absolutely adore that you say "magic science" doesn't work like "that", whatever "that" is. You know how magic science works? We have a long way to go before fully understanding the universe and you, of all people on this Earth, know 100% magic science?

Ugh, I regret using that word already. The thing is Cloud IS harming something. Not just me, but the medium he's in. This game was a huge hit in the US, and it was many people's first RPG. But If this was a person's first RPG, what do you think they'd expect from the series after playing this? They wouldn't expect a storytelling and strategic masterpiece like Final Fantasy Tactics or Tactics Ogre. They'd expect some more spiky haired pre teens with a "mysterious" (translation: convoluted) past off to save the world with an impractical weapon and at least one furry in his party.

What is bad is that there are people who think that a majority of people are easily impressionable or stupid and can't think that games may be different, thus making the people who think this stupid. Well FFTactics is part of the series but not Tactics Ogre. But from what I gathered Tactics Ogre is viewed as the better story compared to FFT. Going to get Tactics Ogre (PSP) eventually pretty excited.

Aeris' death was clearly not his fault. I've talked about this in another thread, but when she ran off to the city of the ancients, we had no idea what was going on. We didn't know she was casting holy, and we didn't know that Sephiroth was going to be there. I was thinking she was going insane, and I mean literally. When Cloud gets to the altar, he does...something, and uncontrollably raises his sword against Aeris. he snaps out of it, and didn't see Sephiroth coming down from the ceiling. There was literally no possible reaction time for him to do anything. When he's holding her while she dies, He's yelling at Sephiroth saying that Seph killed her (and whining about his feelings too). He knew that Aeris' death wasn't his fault, it was Sephiroth's.

He feels responsible for not being able to protect her. Snow went through a similar thing but those people volunteered something Snow and Hope didn't realize, ever. Perhaps he feels if he wasn't so weak-minded (i.e. being controlled by Sephiroth) that he could have done something. A fault within himself that causes his inability to react in time.

When he said that the gun could be fired with a brain implant, I almost punched him.


why Tidus can promptly be piledrived off of the chrysler building.


If someone I loved was murdered, I would go on a roaring rampage. I would tear down every single building in my way, burn down the heavens, and slay the gods that stood in my way of getting vengeance.

Notice a common theme? Mass hyperbole. One thing that makes a person look foolish/stupid is when say stuff like this when it is not merited. For the last statement it looks like you can't distinguish fantasy from reality; in fantasy a person can wield the Buster Sword in reality you - a human - cannot tear down every single building in your way, burn down the heavens and slay the gods. In a fantasy you could.

As for the other two an example to help clarify: when a person says that <insert character> was so annoying that they wanted to punch them in the face. Yeah, that sh*t is stupid, makes the person loose credibility to me because they can't control their raging emotions. They need to learn how to keep good form.

[Unknown Entity]

I've brought this exact point with the gun up with another fan of the game too. I also mentioned the lack of a visible trigger, firing system, and source of ammo. When he said that the gun could be fired with a brain implant, I almost punched him.

That deserves a punch?

But seriously. The trigger could be a brain implant. But all this just points out the fact that Cloud's weapon isn't the most ridiculous of ideas. It's just a design concept.

This part with the sword was admittedly Nitpicky, but since I mentioned it in the opening paragraph, I thought I might as well. But look at the art in the manual and in other games. In dissidia, we see that the blunt edge of the sword is at least a quarter inch wide. The blade is at least 5 and a half feet long, and the sharp edge is extremely thin. If someone was able to lift that weapon, it'd get dull really quickly.

I still don't see how this relates to hating Cloud.

...Weak attempt at a joke.

Mine or yours? I wasn't joking.

This part is because of a friend of mine's friend on Xbox live who keeps talking about Cloud as if he was the most complex and interesting person ever in fiction. I'll admit, it's not right to cast everyone into the generalization, but the more people like that I meet, the more I believe that all fans of the game are like this.

If you have a friend who won't stop talking about Cloud, they're pretty sad. But really, if you're tired of listening to their opinion, just tell them.

As for this, we see in Crisis Core that Cloud was even more of a boyscout than Zack. He was disappointed that he didn't get accepted into soldier, sure, but he wasn't the kind of person who'd deprive a little girl from a chance of learning and knowledge.

Wasn't Cloud young in Crisis Core? Also, Cloud didn't know the money was for Marlene's schooling - only the player, Barret and Tifa know that as it was a whisper. My point remains that if Barret KNEW he'd have to give Marlene's school money away to help plot terrorism, then who's more in the wrong? Barret for employing Cloud, or Cloud asking for his money?

...Let's just say it sucks to have a conscience.

Oh, I know. I have one of those too, but if I was promised pay and didn't get paid, I'd be annoyed.

Okay, It was a while a go when I played Crisis Core, so my chronology was a little mixed up. In the article I found online on the Final Fantasy Wiki, it said after Zack died, Hojo's experimentation on him made him part Zack or whatever. So, context was kind of screwed up.

I still can't comprehend how he could have gained Zack's memories. Science (especially magic science) doesn't work like that. If you were talking to someone in a hospital that was comatose, I sincerely doubt that they'd wake up and think that they're the person who was talking to them, just with their own names inserted.

It also says it was an act of trauma which made him snap. Sure, it doesn't explain it, but people do snap. The wiki isn't worded correctly anyway.

This is what I'm talking about, Cloud wasn't emoting. all of his interactions with the other characters were indifferent and soap opera-esque. I don't expect him to become a party animal, but I'm pretty sure that he should have at least TRIED to act the way he did before the mind****. That's the whole reason Tifa fell into the center of the earth and into Cloud's mind right?...wait...

Cloud was comatose again when Tifa went into the Lifestream. This was to try and rescue him from himself by getting him to remember who he was. Up until the mind****, he'd adopted Zack's thoughts and memories and was living his life doing what Zack had told him he was going to do - and that was to take a job as a mercenary, as Cloud believed he'd made it into SOLDIER.

How can he "try" to act the way he would have done? The brain is a powerful object, which after extensive trauma can take the ability to speak or remember from people.

Ugh, I regret using that word already. The thing is Cloud IS harming something. Not just me, but the medium he's in. This game was a huge hit in the US, and it was many people's first RPG. But If this was a person's first RPG, what do you think they'd expect from the series after playing this? They wouldn't expect a storytelling and strategic masterpiece like Final Fantasy Tactics or Tactics Ogre. They'd expect some more spiky haired pre teens with a "mysterious" (translation: convoluted) past off to save the world with an impractical weapon and at least one furry in his party. Does Chris Bores' pathetic attempts at proving he's a gamer not hurt the 12 year old Xbox players? Not hurt as in pain or psychological, but would you want your child to learn about gaming from someone who couldn't comprehend the true artistic and narrative merit that games can offer...Totally off track.

...if it was a huge hit, isn't that saying something? It being a massive hit probably told people that the franchise was worth getting into. Each Final Fantasy game is a new game anyway, with a new story, new world, different characters, etc.

I certainly bet they weren't expecting a SeeD school with a young man with a scar on his head and using a gunblade in the next game.

If someone I loved was murdered, I would go on a roaring rampage. I would tear down every single building in my way, burn down the heavens, and slay the gods that stood in my way of getting vengeance. But enough about the ****er who ran over my dog a few years ago.

...or they'd be in so much shock they'd hold the person they loved as they slipped away, knowing that vengeance would eventually come? We're not all going to act irrationally.

Also, Sephiroth didn't 'really' kill Aeris. Jenova did. Who you kill RIGHT after the death scene.

Aeris' death was clearly not his fault. I've talked about this in another thread, but when she ran off to the city of the ancients, we had no idea what was going on. We didn't know she was casting holy, and we didn't know that Sephiroth was going to be there. I was thinking she was going insane, and I mean literally. When Cloud gets to the altar, he does...something, and uncontrollably raises his sword against Aeris. he snaps out of it, and didn't see Sephiroth coming down from the ceiling. There was literally no possible reaction time for him to do anything. When he's holding her while she dies, He's yelling at Sephiroth saying that Seph killed her (and whining about his feelings too). He knew that Aeris' death wasn't his fault, it was Sephiroth's.

Jenova, who was Sephiroth, was controlling him to kill Aeris. That's what the "puppet" part was all about. Because he was infused with mako, he could be controlled by her.

Now, yes, there are people who blame themselves for other people dying, like in a car accident, or even a natural catastrophe. But that's called survivor's guilt, What Cloud's feeling is stupid guilt. He's feeling guilty for a death that he didn't have a chance to stop. Also, in Advent Children (a topic for another time), he's still a mopey little punk, and this is supposed to be two years later. I'm pretty sure that a lot of people would have learned to move on by then.

No guilt is "stupid". What happened to having a conscience?

He just seems normal to me.

Then you have been playing FF7-13 too much.

...and what's wrong with at? Were people more or less normal in the previous games? Because quite honestly, I don't think it matters what games I have or haven't played.

Edit: Also, Vincent doesn't get brought up because he's too damn easy, and not the main character.

If he's so easy, then we can start on that one if you want? Clearly Cloud is proving to be a further pain in the butt for you.

[Angel of Iniquity]

I still can't comprehend how he could have gained Zack's memories. Science (especially magic science) doesn't work like that. If you were talking to someone in a hospital that was comatose, I sincerely doubt that they'd wake up and think that they're the person who was talking to them, just with their own names inserted.

LOL
Magic Science? Do we have Magic Science where we live?
You seem to know allot about Magic Science. Where can I visit this Magic Science Laboratory cause I really need to fix my torn tendon in my hip without surgery.

Don't tempt me. A rant on him and his game could split this entire forum in twain.

...you won't

[HUNK]

Y'know I'll join the club of Cloud-haters, but this is alittle uncalled for.

I mean, come on people, this is just a game. Yeah his hair is spiked ridiculously, its a game thing. Yeah his sword is ridiculous, its a game thing. Are you seeing a pattern here?

And for the whole bit about his character being less normal then other FF characters. You don't have to go far to prove that's not the case. The person before him was a magick crazed war machine time bomb waiting to explode.(Sorry, terra fans)

Cloud's really not the greatest thing in the world, but some people are bound to think he is. There are some who think Squall is the best. I don't really think you're angry at the character anymore...I think you're mad at the fact that he has so many fans.(Not that it's my place to tell you what you're thinking, just what I think you're thinking)
Yeah Cloud has a crazy amount of fans, but hey, so does Sephiroth.

[Antidrall]

Damn Antidrall, you didn't pass up a chance to take a jab at FFVII and its fans but made the opportunity. Death. Taxes. Antidrall hating on FFVII and its fans.

Yes, but the sad thing is that in 50 years, I think I'll look back and love this game.

Firstly, the series is not down; it has experienced a dip recently with Final Fantasy XIV and possibly Final Fantasy XIII. Some would include Final Fantasy XII as well however, when there: are 22,000 (a great sample size) user scores at Gamespot giving the game a 9.1 average, 4,700 reader scores at IGN giving an 8.9 average, 1,500 user scores at Gametrailers giving a 9.1 average, an average community score at 1up of an "A", and a 92 average of critics at Metacritic I feel there is enough to back FFXII.

Do you actually listen to those websites? going to the user scores on gametrailers is what I do most of the time, but even then, fans of a franchise are more likely to give games a glowing 10 no matter how crappy they actually are. I wouldn't be too surprised if the individual scores were mostly tens and zeroes. This is why I go to youtube to find reviewers that are non-fans, so I can get their honest opinion.

Is there something inherently wrong with anime style character designs? There wasn't any melodrama before FFVII?

I could deal with an anime art style, but what I can't deal with are one dimensional characters, soap opera dialogue, hammy scripts and over long melodramatic cutscenes. I was so embarrassed to play FF13, that I made a new gamer profile so nobody would see achievements or the fact that I played it. Yes, some of the earlier games had their share of melodrama, but it wasn't shoved down your throat with the force of a meteor. Yoshitaka Amano was the character designer before seven. Now he's pushed back to promotional art. His characters all appeared as though they'd belong in ages where using close range weaponry like swords was something conventional. Also, they act like people do. If you give someone average clothing, odds are they'll act normally. Give someone a ridiculous getup and see what happens.

Does this count: Buster Sword replica? I would say it does, Bwahahahaha!!

That jersey shore looking guy using the blade is pretty buffed up, and he still has a hard time using it. When I first say the video a few years ago, I thought that it was just dull, but it's apparently really hard to effectively use a sword whose broad side is a foot long apparently, eh?

That's not an asshole. People need to learn what real assholes are like. The player does learn a lot about Cloud throughout the game. From his view of what a SOLDIER should be, his history with Sephiroth, to his true self Cloud has layers like Ogres who are like onions. There's more to Cloud most likely I just haven't played the game in a couple of years; I can look up the script at a later time.

Did you play through the beginning? He's openly insulting the others in the group, not giving a damn who they are. If I was on a mission and had to rely on others to get me through dangerous places, I'd most likely treat them
with a little respect.

His character is set, it is finalized for the most part. Is he emo or bland? Blandly emo? Is that another name for normal? I've skimmed through the script and some of the lines he has past him coming out of his coma it would be silly for him to be, "OMG why did Aeris just sit there?" *Cry* *Cry* "Why did she have to die?!?!?! WHY?!?!?!?!?! Sephiroth I hate, hate, hate, hate, hate, hate, hate, hate, hate, hate, hate, you!!!! I hate you more than Anakin hates Obi-Wan." Yeeeeaaaaah, them so good emotions.

...I hate it when I contradict myself.

You could try but seeing how you are with Cloud and that I've retained my knowledge on Tidus better, you won't do well.

Please, I don't want to have to play that wretched game again to reinforce my argument, don't tempt me.

First are you once again trying to put reality in a fantasy setting. Cloud was still "groggy" at the time of Zack's death, with Zack's final words he took them a bit too literal and became Cloud with Zack dressing. And I absolutely adore that you say "magic science" doesn't work like "that", whatever "that" is. You know how magic science works? We have a long way to go before fully understanding the universe and you, of all people on this Earth, know 100% magic science?

What I mean is, if you just say "Magic gave him his memories!" I could probably buy that as long as you give a little backstory for said magic. Buuut if you're gonna use SCIENCE, then give us more of a reason than "Psychological stress+ Jenova cells+ single sentence= Whole new Cloud.

What is bad is that there are people who think that a majority of people are easily impressionable or stupid and can't think that games may be different, thus making the people who think this stupid. Well FFTactics is part of the series but not Tactics Ogre. But from what I gathered Tactics Ogre is viewed as the better story compared to FFT. Going to get Tactics Ogre (PSP) eventually pretty excited.

From what I've seen while working at a game shop, you'd be surprised. Also, While Tactics Ogre has the superior story (from what I remember), I still liked FFT's story for some reason. can't put my finger on why.

He feels responsible for not being able to protect her. Snow went through a similar thing but those people volunteered something Snow and Hope didn't realize, ever. Perhaps he feels if he wasn't so weak-minded (i.e. being controlled by Sephiroth) that he could have done something. A fault within himself that causes his inability to react in time.

...Okay, I can buy that, but there is such a thing as vengeance. Cloud displayed no desire to take down Sephiroth for Aeris, only for the world. Yes, there is such a thing as the greater good or whatever, but tell me, If some guy killed your boyfriend/girlfriend/husband/wife, would you slaughter him for vengeance, or to save the world?

Notice a common theme? Mass hyperbole. One thing that makes a person look foolish/stupid is when say stuff like this when it is not merited. For the last statement it looks like you can't distinguish fantasy from reality; in fantasy a person can wield the Buster Sword in reality you - a human - cannot tear down every single building in your way, burn down the heavens and slay the gods. In a fantasy you could.

It's called humor, try it.

As for the other two an example to help clarify: when a person says that <insert character> was so annoying that they wanted to punch them in the face. Yeah, that sh*t is stupid, makes the person loose credibility to me because they can't control their raging emotions. They need to learn how to keep good form.

You would not be saying that if you knew him.

Y'know I'll join the club of Cloud-haters, but this is alittle uncalled for.

I mean, come on people, this is just a game. Yeah his hair is spiked ridiculously, its a game thing. Yeah his sword is ridiculous, its a game thing. Are you seeing a pattern here?

And for the whole bit about his character being less normal then other FF characters. You don't have to go far to prove that's not the case. The person before him was a magick crazed war machine time bomb waiting to explode.(Sorry, terra fans)

Cloud's really not the greatest thing in the world, but some people are bound to think he is. There are some who think Squall is the best. I don't really think you're angry at the character anymore...I think you're mad at the fact that he has so many fans.(Not that it's my place to tell you what you're thinking, just what I think you're thinking)
Yeah Cloud has a crazy amount of fans, but hey, so does Sephiroth.

Wow...a voice of reason...never thought I'd see that.

[Rhaps]

Wow...a voice of reason...never thought I'd see that.

I provided a real life example and gave logical explanations and used italics several times for emphasis.

I am truly offended. But, hey, your opinion and I respect that.

On topic, I don't even like Cloud all that much. I just hate irrational haters. Come to me with a better argument and I may well agree. Just fuming about his impossible abilities, design, and story in a fantasy game (zomg) probably won't convince many people.

[Antidrall]

I provided a real life example and gave logical explanations and used italics several times for emphasis.

I am truly offended. But, hey, your opinion and I respect that.

On topic, I don't even like Cloud all that much. I just hate irrational haters. Come to me with a better argument and I may well agree. Just fuming about his impossible abilities, design, and story in a fantasy game (zomg) probably won't convince many people.

What I meant was someone who was trying to stop an argument.

[GypsyElder]

I admit I have a slight beef with how much attention FFVII gets constantly, but typing out a full blown ID post about how much you dislike certain aspects of the game (Cloud) can come off just as obsessive sounding. Just saaaaaying. Then again that's your opinion of Could, so fair enough.

This reminds me of another FFVII thread actually.....

Just popped in to say he's a fictional, yellow haired, porcupine fantasy character kiddies XD

[Angel of Iniquity]

...I think Squalls the best. >.>
Anyways yea, I might sound contradictory but I dislike FF7 and 13 the most. But in reality, this is final Fantasy. He has problems. Terra had problems too. Cecil was confused. and WoL had no emotions. Cloud was just REALLY confused about everything and basically gave up.

[HUNK]

@ Odin Dude, I mean no offence. I was just using Squall as an Example.

I wholeheartedly agree with Gypsys recent statement. It just seems alittle obsesive to me.

And raphso, I didn't mean to undermine your argument by not using any fancy sources or anything. I simply don't want to waste time reasearching for a Cloud debate...it doesn't seem worth my time.

Sorry to offend everyone.

[loaf]

I think people are trying to make unrealistic shit realistic. aka Final Fantasy

[Angel of Iniquity]

@ Odin Dude, I mean no offence. I was just using Squall as an Example.

I wholeheartedly agree with Gypsys recent statement. It just seems alittle obsesive to me.

And raphso, I didn't mean to undermine your argument by not using any fancy sources or anything. I simply don't want to waste time reasearching for a Cloud debate...it doesn't seem worth my time.

Sorry to offend everyone.

Nah, you made no personal offense, all good ^-^
Sry for acting that way lol

[Pete]

I find this all preposterous. Of all the things to bitch about FFVII, is Cloud really the biggest proponent?

I mean it's a videogame. Are we going to bitch about the plausibility of his weapon... in a fantasy setting, when we can complain about so many other things.

The Midgar Zolom shouldn't exist. There is far too much algae in the water in that little swamp, that it should have robbed most of the water of its oxygen, thus killing the Zolom. Science teaches us that excessive nitrogen in fresh water systems can cause an overgrowth of plant life, which chokes the oxygen out of the system, killing its inhabitants.

The major culprit of this is obviously Midgar, with it's excessive industrial prowess, putting tons of sewage into the ground. The Midgar sewers were clearly shown to be prone to overflowing in the battle with Aps, where he would create tidal waves with the Sewer Tsunami attack. This would undoubtedly create a backflow of waste, which would likely leak into fresh water systems, and seep into the waters around the Zolom's cave.

Another major cause of this excess algae is none other than Aeris. Look at her house, right by a waterfall and a small river. Just think about how much fertilizer she must use to keep those flowers fresh and that grass green! The amount of nitrogen in it must be astronomical. She is yet another major proponent of the damaging of the ecology.

Lastly, we have the chocobo farm. These are large animals, and with the amount of greens they consume on a daily basis, they clearly produce a lot of waste. Pet feces is washed out of yards, down streets and into storm drains, which empty directly into the nearest rivers or streams that feed local lakes and eventually, bays and oceans. The proximity of the stables to the Zolom's cave and swamp are a major cause for concern. Chocobilly seems like a lazy lad, perhaps instead of burning the chocobo waste, he just dumps it in the swamp... furthering the nitrogen problem.

This is why FFVII is unrealistic.

[markandrewkinzett]

I don't understand why anyone would slag down Cloud down this badly. Cloud is my fave FF7 character and overall he is probably mt favourite character of all (note what he is like in Advent Children too!!!) so he has mad spiky hair, a huge sword and a bit of a difficult and troubled past but to me that is his appeal as far as I am concerned Cloud is just AWESOME!!! Need I say more?

[CrazedMonkey]

Antidrall you have made my day. I'm glad that someone else has the same opinion of this little Emo as I do. I would like to add something however, as I refuse to watch Advent Children complete, or have anything to do with any spin-off besides Dirge of Cerberus (I like Vincent, I couldn't resist), one of my friends was trying to coax me into watching it and told me about how Cloud set off to find a cure for Geostigma only to contract it himself. He then went on to explain how Cloud didn't feel worthy of being around Tifa and Denzel and whoever else as he had failed. You know what this tells me (and I'm sure you'll agree Antidrall)? Cloud is a selfish bastard! I don't care if he contracted Geostigma, Tifa and these orphans he's suppose to be helping with could use his help, but he refuses to go back just spare his own feelings of inadequisy? BITCH! Cloud needs to suck it up, stop acting like a 5 year old that isn't getting his way, and GROW UP! He's suppose to be, what 24-25 in Advent Children? He needs to act like it! Cloud needs to take some responsibility for his own life, get off his emo ass, and do something with himself, that doesn't involve crying in the bathroom while he cuts himself. Cloud needs to either man up and take control of his own life, rather than trying find someone to pulls his strings for him, or go die. Either way, he'll be better off. Thank you.

[The_Dream_Recluse]

While i respect the opinion of the thread creator's thoughts on Cloud, i would have to respectfully disagree on some points.

First off, sure one can argue that Cloud is a whiny emo lead, but you have to take into consideration all the s**t he had been through - he was practically killed by Sephiroth, experimented on by Hojo for years with Zack, suffered almost severe mako poisoning, and witnessed the death of his best friend. And this all takes place BEFORE the game even begins. Furthermore, his entire identity is revealed to be a lie as he realises that his memories aren't real (due to his subconscious suppressing them and Hojo's experiments). Now, i don't mean to flame, but i'm fairly certain that if any ordinary human went through all that trauma, they would be pretty f**ked up and emotional as well.

In regards to the Buster Sword comment, aside from its history with Angeal and Zack, i agree - it is over the top. But from an anime perspective, it is an iconic symbol in Final Fantasy now.

[markandrewkinzett]

Sorry but I have to seriously disagree with Crazed Monkey and Antidrall I unforunately cannot comprehend why you think one of the most awesome FF characters ever is so bad? Granted I agree with you that during Advent Children he whines like a little bitch to begin with, but the transformation he goes through when he goes to the forgotten city and onwards proves that he does have a backbone and from that point on he kicks serious ass!!! As far as I am concerned this is enough to redeem hiself and I do not get why you don't see that.

[CrazedMonkey]

Sorry but I have to seriously disagree with Crazed Monkey and Antidrall I unforunately cannot comprehend why you think one of the most awesome FF characters ever is so bad? Granted I agree with you that during Advent Children he whines like a little bitch to begin with, but the transformation he goes through when he goes to the forgotten city and onwards proves that he does have a backbone and from that point on he kicks serious ass!!! As far as I am concerned this is enough to redeem hiself and I do not get why you don't see that.

I'll admit that his "transformation" as you put it happened. However, the reason this keeps me from respecting him is because he already did that exact same thing in the game. I played through all of 7, granted after a while I was kinda on auto-pilot, but that's not the point. I watched Cloud go from arrogant asshole, to decent guy, to whiny whore, then climb himself back up. Then Advent Children came out, and he's a whiny bitch again, because he contracted something that numerous others have contracted. Well Cloud, cry me a river (then drown yourself in it). These things can happen, it's not a reason to be a bitch about it. If anything, he should have used it as more incentive to find the cure. I'll even admit to something, just for you mark (I shortened it cause I'm lazy) Cloud actually bears some similarities with my favorite video game character, Luke Fon Fabre (Tales of the Abyss). Luke also started of as something of an arrogant asshole only to find out that his entire life had pretty much been borrowed time because the person he trusted and admired most was just using him to inevitably kill him. Understandably, this (along with the taunting of another character and a massive screw up on Lukes part that was made while trying to help people) gave Luke an inferiority complex and the rest of the game is his climb back up from that point. Like I said before, I can see similarities to Cloud in this. The biggest difference that makes this what it is, is the way Luke is presented. He is still very quick tempered just like before, but he tries to catch himself with it. He makes a firm decision and active effort to change the person he is, even if it's hard for him to do at times. This change is something that he manages however, at least to the point that he is comfortable with who he is by game's end. More over, the change stays. Luke remains confidant with the man he's become and the opinions of others along with failure no longer sways him because he accepts that mistakes and failures happen and rather than whine about it, he chooses to correct these mistakes in whatever way he can. Thus the main difference. Again, I can see some of Cloud in Lukes character, but the fact that Cloud lets failure (his contracting the geostigma) turn him back into a bitch, is what gets me. It means that he's still too weak willed to accept failure and mistakes for what they are: a part of life. No one is going to get everything right all the time. It's impossible. People make mistakes, people fail. The important thing is to learn from it and become a stronger person because of it, rather than letting yourself wallow in self-pity with each screw up. Cloud apparently forgets the lessons he learns and has to learn them over again between FF7 and AC. That is my problem with Cloud. I have no respect for the weak-willed. None. And again, he chose to bail on Tifa and the orphans to spare his own feelings. That's both childish and stupid. Screw that.
However, I will also point out that all of this is my opinion. All I can do is tell you why I see things the way I do. I don't expect you to start hating Cloud. So don't expect me to start liking him.

[X-Meteo]

If you wanna talk about unrealistic equipment, what about the fact that a character's defence can be raised by them wearing a bangle. What are they gonna do - deflect a Sweeper's bullets like Wonder Woman?

It's a fantasy game
If you don't like the character, then that's cool (although all the stuff about him acting like an asshole early in the game seems pretty much moot to me, since he's presented as an anti-hero: a traditionally assholey character archetype), but attacking him on grounds of being unrealistic seems odd to me.

That said, the big hair/asymmetrical aesthetic is a big contributor to why a lot of people are so disdainful towards JRPG's in general, but those people were never going to like them anyway and besides, who cares? If they don't like FF they clearly have no souls anyway...

[X-Meteo]

Man, I'm sorry; there was some terrible sentence structure in that post. I can't face going back to correct it so I'll just apologise instead.

[Xanatos]

Final Fantasy VII is highly flawed game, there's enough material for one to bash is properly without sounding like an idiot, opposite to Antidrall whose main points were Cloud's hair and lack of realism in fantasy game.