Pro-Life or Pro-Choice?

[Rowan]

Abortion isn't murder anymore than ejaculating into oblivion. Its not a human, it doesnt have life nor has this parasite had the chance too. The poor rape victims who have to bring up bastard children from a rapist because people like you enforced abortion laws. I'm assuming most people here dont have a problem with killing animals and eating animals? What gives you the right to take a living thing such as an animal's life away, but not that of an unborn child? You believe animals dont have feelings or intellect therefor they are not worthy of life, simple. I agree. I believe the same about a fetus. They are not developed, they are merely parasites evolving into a human and therefor have no less right to die than any animal. It would be harsher to force a birth into a family or to a mother that did not want them. Especially if the father raped the mother.

[Sinister]

Abortion isn't murder anymore than ejaculating into oblivion. Its not a human, it doesnt have life nor has this parasite had the chance too. The poor rape victims who have to bring up bastard children from a rapist because people like you enforced abortion laws. I'm assuming most people here dont have a problem with killing animals and eating animals? What gives you the right to take a living thing such as an animal's life away, but not that of an unborn child? You believe animals dont have feelings or intellect therefor they are not worthy of life, simple. I agree. I believe the same about a fetus. They are not developed, they are merely parasites evolving into a human and therefor have no less right to die than any animal. It would be harsher to force a birth into a family or to a mother that did not want them. Especially if the father raped the mother.

If you are responding to me, then save your breath. I've already cemented it as my opinion and you trying to convince me that your opinion is fact will have little effect on me and should have just as little effect on other readers. I cast my vote in favor of Pro-Choice. What I believe from thence forth has little to do with your convictions or anyone else's. Also, needing to justify myself very little, I barely feel the need to express the difference between gametes and zygotes and the point of something genetically unique as being a creature unto itself. Once again those are definitions that have yet to be defined. Also note that using emotional appeals such as "poor rape victims" is beneath the average debate in the ID forum, and that is, I'm afraid, saying something.

Respectfully,
-Sin

[Rowan]

If you are responding to me, then save your breath. I've already cemented it as my opinion and you trying to convince me that your opinion is fact will have little effect on me and should have just as little effect on other readers. I cast my vote in favor of Pro-Choice. What I believe from thence forth has little to do with your convictions or anyone else's. Also, needing to justify myself very little, I barely feel the need to express the difference between gametes and zygotes and the point of something genetically unique as being a creature unto itself. Once again those are definitions that have yet to be defined. Also note that using emotional appeals such as "poor rape victims" is beneath the average debate in the ID forum, and that is, I'm afraid, saying something.

Respectfully,
-Sin

Asserting that I view my opinion as fact is misleading and viperous, as well as untrue. And you pointing out appeals to emotion doesn't make my points any less valid, perhaps maybe a little low, but equally valid. Im not here to convince anybody of anything, Im here to see what arguments people can come up with to refute, not to be snide pricks. If a mother does not want her child, who are you to say she must and force an unwanted child into the world?

[Sinister]

Asserting that I view my opinion as fact is misleading and viperous, as well as untrue. And you pointing out appeals to emotion doesn't make my points any less valid, perhaps maybe a little low, but equally valid. Im not here to convince anybody of anything, Im here to see what arguments people can come up with to refute, not to be snide pricks. If a mother does not want her child, who are you to say she must and force an unwanted child into the world?

I do not assert; you inferred. If that is not your intention, you failed in making that clear. I would also watch the borderline flame-speak, tis not appreciated by mods also you may wound my sensitive fragile ego. I would never ever even begin to think myself fit to tell a mother what to do with her baby. I know what I would say about my daughter and my potential grandchild or alternatively, my wife and my potential child. I think that is a fair sentiment to echo in this thread. If you indeed were merely expressing your opinion, I simply challenge you, and everyone in this thread, to make that safely clear. And yes, emotional appeals in Intellectual Discussion are unwanted and unwelcome.

-Sin

[Rowan]

I do not assert; you inferred. If that is not your intention, you failed in making that clear. I would also watch the borderline flame-speak, tis not appreciated by mods also you may wound my sensitive fragile ego. I would never ever even begin to think myself fit to tell a mother what to do with her baby. I know what I would say about my daughter and my potential grandchild or alternatively, my wife and my potential child. I think that is a fair sentiment to echo in this thread. If you indeed were merely expressing your opinion, I simply challenge you, and everyone in this thread, to make that safely clear. And yes, emotional appeals in Intellectual Discussion are unwanted and unwelcome.

-Sin

Aside from me saying "This is fact" , how else could you possibly blame me for your thought process? Just as you couldnt blame me for taking your 'advice' as just plain insults. Dont think that calling someone an 'idiot' or a 'dickhead' or any other kind of slur is the only way to pass insults. I find your kind, the smarmy undertones of pretention to be the most insulting, especially since you are allowed to get away with it because its not obvious.

Aside from all of that, and all the ego bashing going on, I dont care about your personal decisions with your family because while it may be a 'fair' sentiment, it is certainly not a useful one. Pro-life and Pro choice are directly in contradiction with each other in this scenario. If being pro-choice means being able to have an option to have an abortion, you are taking away any choice the fetus had of having a life, therefor pro-choice doesnt really exist. If you are pro-life, you are against choice is this regard. I think everyone should have a choice if they are able to make one.

[Sinister]

Aside from me saying "This is fact" , how else could you possibly blame me for your thought process? Just as you couldnt blame me for taking your 'advice' as just plain insults. Dont think that calling someone an 'idiot' or a 'dickhead' or any other kind of slur is the only way to pass insults. I find your kind, the smarmy undertones of pretention to be the most insulting, especially since you are allowed to get away with it because its not obvious.

You find my attitude as an "insult" or insulting? Ah well, there again at the mercy of vague definitions and my intentions. The latter of which, at least, I know for a fact you are having trouble with. This has already gone on longer than I intended to bother with it.


-Sin

[Rowan]

I am considering the possibility that my opinion on the matter of life and the necessity of abortion may not be correct or at least, true for everyone. In this case, if it goes to court and Pro-Choice is legalized, people's souls are in their own hands(as it should be) and I don't marginalize people or situations I may not understand. You seem to have omitted this possibility with regards to your own "opinion".

So im marginilizing people now? Can you please stop with your assertions, they make me look bad and suposedly I already do a good job of that.

And please, souls? really?
I guess we are going to have a fundemental disagreement on this subject... as If it wasn't already apparent.

You find my attitude as an "insult" or insulting? Ah well, there again at the mercy of vague definitions and my intentions. The latter of which, at least, I know for a fact you are having trouble with. This has already gone on longer than I intended to bother with it.

Yes, because we all know you had the best of intentions when you started down this road with me.

[HeroZero]

I am Pro-Life...but I support Pro-Choice. The sort of factors that influence that particular decision are the exact factors that no one should be able to legislate or mandate as a standard for all peoples and situations. The factors that affect that are morals. It has always been a personal opinion and maxim of mine that morality should never be legislated. People have tried in the past. Drugs, prohibition, prostitution...etc... But in the end, you simply make the people that don't share that particular moral more desperate. Desperate people do stupid, damaging things. From a damage control perspective, it is far less costly to make it legal and let people make up their own minds.

It could be said that abortion is murder, depending on your definition of murder, death and life. But ah, you see, we are the ones that write those definitions. Death, life and murder are up to us and us alone, as a species, to define. If legalizing is put to a majority vote and either voted in or shot down, then I would think the nature of those definitions to be in-evidence.

With that out of the way, I do believe it is murder. I would never stay with anyone who had undergone an abortion unless they were penitent about said abortion. I would never give my consent to an abortion under my roof, should I ever chance to have a family. But I do not look down upon others because of my beliefs, as my beliefs are personal and do not apply to people who are not me. I could be accused of being hypocritical for saying that I would not give my wife or daughter consent to have an abortion under my roof. So be it, not giving consent does not equal stopping it by any means necessary and, as always, there are mitigating factors.

-Sin

I am pro choice but you have certainly put forth your reasoning soundly and with no agression towards others choices. You did not say you would 'forbid' a family member from abortion but would not support it. I think that is very fair and your choice in life.

Abortion isn't murder anymore than ejaculating into oblivion. Its not a human, it doesnt have life nor has this parasite had the chance too. The poor rape victims who have to bring up bastard children from a rapist because people like you enforced abortion laws. I'm assuming most people here dont have a problem with killing animals and eating animals? What gives you the right to take a living thing such as an animal's life away, but not that of an unborn child? You believe animals dont have feelings or intellect therefor they are not worthy of life, simple. I agree. I believe the same about a fetus. They are not developed, they are merely parasites evolving into a human and therefor have no less right to die than any animal. It would be harsher to force a birth into a family or to a mother that did not want them. Especially if the father raped the mother.

Rowan you have started your discussion from a very agressive standpoint, even to the point of antagonizing someone who put forth their views very candidly and with no malice. Even though I agree with your basic stand of Pro-Choice I think you are someone who is either a terrible person, or just cannot put forth your views in a calm collected manner. Instead you continuously attempt to cause Sin to lash back at you which they have not done. This seems to have only made you angrier and have started to make you look rather silly.

TL; DR I am Pro-Choice but I think Sin has every right to his views on this matter, they have not said they would forbid an abortion, they would merely not condone such a choice. They even went so far as to address mitigating circumstances.

[Rowan]

Rowan you have started your discussion from a very agressive standpoint, even to the point of antagonizing someone who put forth their views very candidly and with no malice. Even though I agree with your basic stand of Pro-Choice I think you are someone who is either a terrible person, or just cannot put forth your views in a calm collected manner. Instead you continuously attempt to cause Sin to lash back at you which they have not done. This seems to have only made you angrier and have started to make you look rather silly.

TL; DR I am Pro-Choice but I think Sin has every right to his views on this matter, they have not said they would forbid an abortion, they would merely not condone such a choice. They even went so far as to address mitigating circumstances.

Nothing truly malicious in my posts, and Sin knows. Thank you for your concern.

I was just thinking further, how can pro choice and pro life coincide? Example. "I have the right to choose to end your life" In this case, we consider the unborn, living, or at least a potential life (not in the sense of glorified sperm).

Its a paradox, isn't it? Or have I just presented it as a paradox?