TFF and Roleplaying

[Merlin]

Clan Wars was still the most successful.. and it was the original. ^_^ Ok that was completely irrelevant. In any case I would like to point out that you said to "throw out" suggestions rather than "give" suggestions. It sounds like you want people to dump their ideas in the trash.

[Andromeda]

I want to say you're being a little too literal, but I don't really know if that is actually been literal or not. But yes, fun with multiple meanings. I get the feeling though that people know what I mean. >.>

Clan Wars was successful? I thought it got stalled even closer to the beginning than Forum Wars did. Neither one of them actually managed to deliver of what they wanted to do. It just seemed like Forum Wars actually had people talking and some things in place. But both of them had been going around and trying before I started. So my visibility on it was not as good as you, Merlin.

[Merlin]

Indeed, Clan Wars never finished, but it was one of the most prominent moments in TFF history for being the most successful effort ever to get people to notice the RP forum and take note. The three clans were known forum-wide, each with unique advertising schemes that drew people not only from TFF but from other boards. Inside the clans, we trained people to become better writers/RPers and had our own internal RPs. The battle between clans never made it to all-out war scale, but the tension between them was real. We went so far as to ninja each other's private forums by whatever means necessary to gain enemy intel. The competition even went beyond RPs. Tantalus and Evil Bad Guys had Flash wars, where both leaders created Flash movies. The comradery among the clan's members lead to the continuation of those clans in one form or another long after Clan Wars ended. SOLDIER was a culmination of Tantalus' and Itazura's members. Evil Bad Guys continued on for some time as well. What other RP event can claim to have brought attention to our site from other RP forums and get us on the radar as a prominent RP site?

Sure, it never finished, but it was an adventure anyway. Every event after has been trying to recapture that energy. That kind of energy is what we need back here again. I'm not saying we need another Clan Wars, but we need that sense of pride in our RP forum to make it the best damned RP Forum on the net. After most of the vets left, they took that energy with them. A few others and I stuck around to try to rekindle that flame but they eventually gave up as well. Other members have came and gone in an attempt to make the RP forum spring to life, but it has never been the same.

[Storm]

@ Merlin:

I didn't know Clan Wars was quite on that scale. I kind of wish I was a member when that was going on as it sounds like good fun, and a good way of getting people into roleplaying. Doing something similar could possibly revitalise the RP forum, and maybe help the rest of the forum in general with activity. Heck, even if it doesn't do anything, it wouldn't be bad to give it a try! I know it would likely get my interest back in- as there's nothing wrong with a bit of friendly rivalry! I guess a negative point would be if things got a bit too far involving either someone easily offended or someone who gets a bit too into things. I don't really have the prior experience to know how the good and bad points weigh out against eachother.

[SOLDIER #819]

Indeed, Clan Wars never finished, but it was one of the most prominent moments in TFF history for being the most successful effort ever to get people to notice the RP forum and take note. The three clans were known forum-wide, each with unique advertising schemes that drew people not only from TFF but from other boards. Inside the clans, we trained people to become better writers/RPers and had our own internal RPs. The battle between clans never made it to all-out war scale, but the tension between them was real. We went so far as to ninja each other's private forums by whatever means necessary to gain enemy intel. The competition even went beyond RPs. Tantalus and Evil Bad Guys had Flash wars, where both leaders created Flash movies. The comradery among the clan's members lead to the continuation of those clans in one form or another long after Clan Wars ended. SOLDIER was a culmination of Tantalus' and Itazura's members. Evil Bad Guys continued on for some time as well. What other RP event can claim to have brought attention to our site from other RP forums and get us on the radar as a prominent RP site?

Sure, it never finished, but it was an adventure anyway. Every event after has been trying to recapture that energy. That kind of energy is what we need back here again. I'm not saying we need another Clan Wars, but we need that sense of pride in our RP forum to make it the best damned RP Forum on the net. After most of the vets left, they took that energy with them. A few others and I stuck around to try to rekindle that flame but they eventually gave up as well. Other members have came and gone in an attempt to make the RP forum spring to life, but it has never been the same.

Moved to tears.

Though if Lionheart were to ever see this he'd bust in and make sure his own clan got some recognition. I think most people have some pride in their clan even now, given that they joined Clan Wars in its heyday.

Merlin brings up a good point about leadership, but I think an abundance of members should be mentioned too. We had tons of people who would just sign up for kicks, and if even a fraction of those actually stayed active it still really increased the pool of RPers. We don't have that sort of membership right now, but...

If you take away from that inter-forum RP competition from a while back and add in Heartless's suggestion about working together on stories for RPs, then you may be able to generate a larger group of RPers. I have no clue how you'd set it up, but if you guys know any other forums with RPers who are sitting around and twiddling their thumbs like us, then it may be a good idea to join forces?

[Merlin]

Doing something similar could possibly revitalise the RP forum, and maybe help the rest of the forum in general with activity. Heck, even if it doesn't do anything, it wouldn't be bad to give it a try!

It's too early to start something of that scale. With our current levels it would flop before it even got off the ground. My hidden point in all of that was advertisement and comradery. People didn't sit around going "I'd love to RP but..." they formed groups, slapped banners in their sigs, and basically made it impossible for you to go anywhere on TFF without seeing some reference to the clans. Actually we should have called it Gang Wars, because we resembled gangs, flashing our signs and picking fights with the other clans. Of course most of it was in good fun, but there were occasions where it caused rifts between members. If we want to be back at that level, we need to not only do what is suggested here about grouping all the RPers together, but to also advertise the shit out of it. Now with advertising, you really have to back up what you are selling. If you say the RP forum is off the chain, it better damn be. Also, I don't really mean advertising on other boards. You need to get TFFers involved before you can go abroad. Now if you want to grab friends from other boards that is a bit different. Just outright advertising like bots going "Come to TFF. Our RPs are awesome" etc is a surefire way to turn away people (and make us look like shit...) Once the RP forum starts going, then we can start going to other boards and offering to do friendly competitions or joint efforts. They don't even need to be Final Fantasy boards. That even builds up our own member's skills because we can see how other boards are doing things and pick up abilities we might not know about. They will learn as well.
All in all, you really just have to get over the "I would but..." but nothing. DO IT.

[Magi of Worlds]

Exactly. I completely agree with Merlin. Everybody needs to get off their lazy butts and actually do something instead of whining. I think we should do as Merlin says and advertise the shit out of the RP forum! Let's get out there and DO IT!!!

[SOLDIER #819]

Magi's words were more or less Gravis's slogan for Factions. Unfortunately I think there are very few passionate RPers at TFF. Clan Wars was able to get so large because a lot of it wasn't actually RPing... as Merlin said it was sort of being in a group and gaining some sort of prominence above the other clans. You didn't need to write for that. Many of the clan leaders never ever RPed. But I think most of the regulars are a bit older now, so the amount of people who feed on drama may have decreased somewhat.

In this case it really is left up to the ones who really like to RP to set something up... because people who aren't too into it will only partake in what is created... which is natural to some extent. Which is why I recommend joining forces with another forum and getting some friends over here. There just aren't enough people here. Though I'm probably out of place in suggesting this since I don't consider myself to be a dedicated writer...

[Andromeda]

One of the biggest problems that the TFF Factions that Gravis put together was that it was far too vague. People had little direction and there was little provided up front. So people were expected to just create things without knowing what they should be creating. People need direction, not too much, but also not too little either.

He had spirit and the desire to make a change, which certainly what is needed. I can commend him for taking things into his hands and not saying try, but just do it.

However, you'd be surprised how many people on here are actually waiting for the next incarnation of Clan Wars to come around. It probably isn't a huge amount, but there are people who aren't the standard RPers, out there that want to see it come back. They get excited every time someone hints at it and makes them get hopes up for doing it. So I don't believe that we are totally without others that would join.

Increasing the RP base itself though it definitely going to be one of the biggest factors. Through whatever means that we can do it has to grow for anything to be able to get off the ground.

I think I'll go off and make a banner. There's something that I need to do some recruiting for and it's probably about time that I started seeking out those that I need.

Hopefully, Loco will answer my nagging at some point and I can actually sit down with him to talk about this and other stuff.

[Alpha]

I've never roleplayed, but I have had a cursory look through some, and this 'clan wars' business sounds like it was a lot of fun.

From the perspective of an outsider, then, what do I think is the issue?

To me, it seems as though you RPers stick to yourselves. I've never ever seen an invite made to a non-RPer. Everybody knows RPs are going on, -somewhere- in the background. But it's not visible, and the people who are participating aren't actively...recruiting, shall we say?

I mean, I could be interested. Though the themes RPs generally follow aren't my cup of Earl Grey, and because I've never done it before, how strange would it be for me to just turn up in an RP, completely uninvited, and start participating. You'd probably like that, by the sounds of it - but it's not going to happen. A non-RPer will not just become an RPer by themself, on their own intitiative. You have to create a cool image; convince people who have never tried it that it is fun.

Then, maybe, people will start. Then, maybe, they'll enjoy it. Then, maybe, they'll start their own, with their own friends who are new to RPing. Then, maybe, the spark will come back.

I'd be interested. Just not at this time of the year (RL busyness), and perhaps around a theme that is not lifted so clearly out of fantasy novels. But that's just me.

[Merlin]

You are supposed to sign up for RPs. That should be apparent from the abundance of RP Sign-up threads. RPers aren't going to randomly ask people who have shown no interest in writing. We need more advertising, but you can't start spamming people's PM boxes with requests to join a RP either. I don't think knocking on people's doors and preaching the good word is an effective selling practice.

[DragonHeart]

Exactly. RPers don't recruit outside of the RP forums because...if you're interested in RPing then that's generally where you look, lol. And if you don't like any of the RPs you see you can always create your own. Don't need to ask permission or anything. You can also sometimes find links to RP sign-ups in people's sigs.

As for the lack of non-fantasy RPs...we're working on it. I just posted a sign up for a non-fantasy RP yesterday, in fact. Merlin said he might have something non-fantasy in the works as well. Even if you don't have time to start now you could always at least post in the sign up threads to say if you're interested or not; you don't always have to join right at the beginning.

~DragonHeart~

[Alpha]

I suppose you're both right... but the issue is that the status quo is not working, right? Maybe you should try some active recruiting, is all I'm saying.

Otherwise the lack of visibility will remain, IMO.

[Merlin]

I'd prefer to recruit people who actually have an interest in writing, rather than people who are coming for the free cookies.

[DragonHeart]

Well it's certainly not from lack of trying. Gravis was very active in recruiting when he started his new factions thing last year. It still died from lack of activity. =/ Though there were other factors involved, bottom line was even such a large project had a total lack of interest. Do you have any suggestions on what we could do differently to help recruit again? I've never been able to come up with anything personally.

As for the genre thing, here's a general survey question:

What genre(s)/types of RPs would you be interested in joining?

I'm thinking that if lots of people want to join a certain type of RP but no one wants to start it, a regular RPer could post the OOC and start the actual RP without the obligation of participating further.

~DragonHeart~

[Alpha]

Then, um, do that? (@Merlin)

I never said, 'go out and recruit as many people as possible and put them into forced RP slave labour camps' (I feel I've got an RP coming along...). I just noted that I have never seen any kind of attempt to attract new interest. And now you're wondering why it's dying a slow death?

EDIT: Dragonheart got in.

Gravis' attempt actually contradicts what I just said, admittedly. As to why he failed, I'm not sure. I never really bothered to read all he had to say; it seemed terribly elaborate from my perspective.

In terms of attempting a Recruit Round 2, I'd suggest start small. It seemed Gravis wanted to create everything from nothing. Small, as in, gently ease some new blood into the fold. They won't be great, and they probably won't be into posting at great length, but that's certainly better than not posting at all. They say a journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step; usually that means that there's no point staring at a task, and to just get on and do it. I'd suggest that it can also be seen as a recommendation to not be overly ambitious (like, starting with a step, not a jump... actually I should've just said 'you have to crawl before you can walk').

Don't ask me for anything more specific than that.

IDK about genres, but I wouldn't mind more casual RPs. I remember someone at the beginning of this thread stating that a poor, unfinished RP has around 50 posts, and the best 200+. From my perspective, that's incredibly daunting. I understand you want quality RPers, but you won't get those unless you have a sub-continent worth of mediocre RPers in the mix, and this means RPs that are not so incredibly intricate that they serve to frighten the inexperienced.

[Merlin]

It's too early to start something of that scale. With our current levels it would flop before it even got off the ground. My hidden point in all of that was advertisement and comradery. People didn't sit around going "I'd love to RP but..." they formed groups, slapped banners in their sigs, and basically made it impossible for you to go anywhere on TFF without seeing some reference to the clans.

...


All in all, you really just have to get over the "I would but..." but nothing. DO IT.

Then, um, do that? (@Merlin)

I never said, 'go out and recruit as many people as possible and put them into forced RP slave labour camps' (I feel I've got an RP coming along...). I just noted that I have never seen any kind of attempt to attract new interest. And now you're wondering why it's dying a slow death?

RTFA. Thanks

You just keep repeating points we already made. Thank you for the support though.

[Alpha]

Advertising is a good initiative, but again, you're relying on non-RPers just deciding to become RPers; without some kind of concerted introduction, the non-interested will remain just that.

And it's pretty difficult to not to 'repeat points you've already made', seeing as there are four pages worth of text and a long history of trying to do just what is being discussed. But sure, dismiss a fresh perspective; that's the right attitude to encourage new activity.

[DragonHeart]

I think the problem with trying to do that is mainly because most of us have been RPing for so long it's hard to know exactly what kind of introduction a non-RPer would want/need. I mean, all RPing really is is collaborative fiction writing. You don't really need any particular skill or knowledge to do it, though being able to write complete sentences and use spellcheck is preferred. XD

And yes, most new RPers aren't great at it. I sure wasn't. We all understand that and no one expects greatness from the get-go, so I'm not really sure where you're going with that particular point. I don't think anyone cares about writing the greatest RP ever, regular RPers just tend to be better at it because of experience. I wouldn't turn someone away just because they aren't at my writing level.

As for casual RPs, I'm starting to think we all have different definitions of what that actually is. It has nothing to do with length.

~DragonHeart~

[Storm]

What genre(s)/types of RPs would you be interested in joining?
I'm mainly interested in Fantasy and Sci-Fi. I enjoy original concepts, although sometimes RPs based of a series can be entertaining if a level of orignality is kept.

I find that RPs are more successful with a degree of openess about them, but not too far open or things will never be accomplished. RPs set in the world of a pre-existing media are probably going to attract newer RPers as they are a bit less daunting, and from personal experience, I found them to be a good way to start off. I know that these kinds of RPs are quite common, but like how things have been said before, the best way to attract more people into roleplaying is likely to be through more advertising. Banners are rather eye-catching, so they could be a good way to go, and I know of them being used in the past. I think also making a point in OOC posts to say that the RP welcomes new RPers may help the idea be a bit less daunting to some.

I remember the RP accademy being a good idea for getting newcomers to be interested, but it didn't quite take off (although I can't say much about it as I hardly got involved).

I think the roleplaying needs to be given the reputation of being a friendly environment. As with anything creative, it can have an element of snobbery about it on some forums, so trying to give it a positive reputation to welcome people into it may help. Perhaps creating a friendly, light-hearted Roleplay may help some more people to join up, combined with appropriate advertising. I'll try to think up of something along those lines over the next few days, although the opinions of other people would be useful as to whether or not its a good idea.

[Tech Support]

The Academy seemed like such a good idea. It was designed to help people who have no experience with RPing to get up to speed. Perhaps people were turned off by the concept that "grammar" was a big part of it? I'm not sure. While I have been known for being a grammar nazi in the past, I honestly don't care if the grammar is perfect. On the other hand, the basics are important:

• Proper use of paragraphs - Refusing to use line breaks makes text hard to read, as it is hard to keep track of where you are.
• Basic sentence structure - You don't have to write graduate-level sentences, but proper use of basic grammar is a must. It is hard to read a sentence that never ends or sentences with no punctuation. That is typically why we asked people to use something like MS Word. It's grammar check isn't stellar, but it will make your sentences readable without people pulling their hair out.
• Proper use of quoting - This isn't as important as the other two, but definitely improves readability. If a different character starts speaking, that's a new paragraph!

Other than those, I won't rag on someone unless it is a competion that has grammar as a requirement. In such a case, furthur training would be provided.

Also, "casual writing" is vague. My idea of casual writing is knocking out a chapter every week in a book. Perhaps the other definition should be called Relaxed Rules RolePlay? Then we can have Strict Rules Roleplay. Then we can have an overview of what that means. If you are in a Strict Rules Roleplay, you cannot use astericks, must use proper punctuation/sentence structure/paragraph structure/etc. Just a thought.

[Victoria]

Here's something I noticed, and I believe it was repeated in this thread before, but I don't think it was really noticed or addressed because the way it was written.

The 'newer' RPers, or the 'shotty' style RPers as Meier put it... and the people who were put off of the academy... and the newbies who get scared off of the RP forum...

They don't want to work. RPing and writing are the same thing, and they know this. That's why they don't put any actual effort into their writing. Because they don't care.

They want to RP for fun. Not for work. The three basics that Merlin posted.. are work.
Especially the first bullet. Although these basics seem like they're second nature, they're really not.

They also don't want to improve their writing. Otherwise they would've joined the academy, or would be posting in here. >.>;

The type of basic RPing that we like, is extreme work for them. That's why they're in their social groups. That's why they're not out here.

If we want them to get out of their hideaways, we need to get rid of the asterisk rule. We even have to get rid of the notion that the basics are required.

[Merlin]

That is why I propose two different rule-sets that any RP can go by. We would have the Strict rule-set for those those of us who like writing book-style and a Relaxed rule-set for those who want to write like they do any other forum post. You can just tag it on to the end of your RP title like "Some RP -- Strict" or "Some Other RP --Relaxed".

I can understand some folks' frustration with having strict rules(although I do not find them overly strict), as I used to suck ass at writing back in middle school. I hated grammar classes with a passion. My sister, who was an avid writer at the time, drew me out of my stupor and laid the foundation of the grammar fan I am today. Yes, at first it is a lot of work to become decent at writing in general and many people don't want to put the effort into overcoming that hump. We cannot force people to overcome that hump, though we should still encourage it in a positive manner. Eventually, writing isn't a chore and is quite enjoyable to many of us. Grammar becomes second-nature and requires little or no thought whatsoever. It just happens.

I suppose another hurdle we have is the increasingly poor teaching of grammar that is happening in schools nowadays. Grammar has gone the way of Music classes. It simply isn't important to many school systems. That is a shame, as it is a requirement in major colleges and trying to catch up at that point is too little too late. We can post guides on grammar until are fingers bleed, but unless people actually put some effort into practicing it (we could help with that) then it is like talking to a wall.

So the interim approach is to have the best of both worlds. Two rule-sets. Pick your poison.

[SOLDIER #819]

As to why he failed, I'm not sure. I never really bothered to read all he had to say; it seemed terribly elaborate from my perspective.

They want to RP for fun. Not for work. The three basics that Merlin posted.. are work.
Especially the first bullet. Although these basics seem like they're second nature, they're really not.

...

The type of basic RPing that we like, is extreme work for them. That's why they're in their social groups. That's why they're not out here.

We cannot force people to overcome that hump, though we should still encourage it in a positive manner. Eventually, writing isn't a chore and is quite enjoyable to many of us.

Take these posts into account and I don't think your approach will be wrong. Whether it's successful is another story... but Merlin's suggestion is the wisest place to start.

As Shadow/Urumi/Sheena/Victoria also said, they really want to just RP for fun. In addition the the academy being mostly a grammar school, it probably didn't feel to them like they were RPing. People who have remained at TFF for the long time had the liberty of setting the standard. When I first came to TFF RPing was nothing like how it is now. But everyone just kept at it casually and post "quality" (however you define it) continued to grow with time. Rather than have newer RPers live up to the current standard, I think it's important to give them time to grow naturally.

It wouldn't hurt to move Spotlight Theatre out from under Reviews and just below Member Lounge by the way. *HINT* That way when members make a mad dash for GC they'll have a slightly easier time seeing it.

[Merlin]

I don't believe the rules on RPing have gotten any stricter over the years. I can attest that StarSoldier, Whitney, and the others were more than willing to bust someone upside the head for using asterisks, shitty grammar, etc. The problems with the RP forums arose when the new-fangled "rp battles" started popping up. People were posting short, asterisk-laden messages in a chat room style brawl. It got so bad we had to split them off into the RPB forum. If anything, the RPB forum has gotten stricter over the years. RPB had the stigma of being the trash pile of RPing.

The only noticeable change in the RP forum I can see (other than activity) is that posts got progressively longer in the more advanced RPs. That could have caused a rift with people who want to post well but don't want to write an entire chapter each post. To counteract that, we need to make it known that you don't have to do that. I did find it strange when I read people's comments on long posts. Things such as "I don't have time to read long posts. Do what?!?

Oh and yes, that category could be moved up.

[Andromeda]

Yeah, the rules that I use for the RP Forums actually the exact same from the ones that Yuna had when she modded years ago. All I did was re-word them and clean them up a little. In the end the only things I get on people about are asterisks and spam posts, though both of which I don't believe I've actually warned anyone over though since everyone was willing to adjust. I usually just give friendly reminders.

[Heartless Angel]

There are of course people I introduce to RPs who remain non-Rpers, but if out of 20 members I get one more to be active in roleplaying, I've taken a step in the right direction. I myself will do what I can to help, and try to release a few RPs in the semi-near future.

[LocoColt04]

Loco can provide his reasoning, since he has been running TOA for a while. But I think the reason was that the last TOA ended up collapsing under zero activity about halfway through the tournament. So I think Loco took it as a sign that the interest was not there anymore. So he has not been holding them anymore.

Correct. Until legitimate activity in the RPB forum picks up, I have no reason nor desire to attempt to hold another tournament that will just fall apart near the end like the last three did.

[Heartless Angel]

Another suggestion that you may or may not wish to consider, I've ignored several of my own forum's rules for the sake of RPing. Like I'll allow a dead thread revival, or a double post to spark activity here and there. Obviously I still keep limits on it, otherwise it'd be absolute chaos... but I will occasionally allow certain rules to be overlooked if there's a decent reason to do so. That was more of a last resort kinda thing, the situation here doesn't seem to be that desperate yet, so this is probably totally unnescessary for the time being.

[Andromeda]

I already allow both of those things. Double posting to revive activity is something that I'm fine with unless it is quite clear that it is dead, meaning all of the other RPs officially signed off from it. But if people are just being a little absentminded or whatever, double posting for a bump is fine. Doing it after like three days, no. Doing it after like two weeks, sure I'm not going to say anything.

Reviving old RPs and Necroposting though are two different things. Which does require some research on what happened to the RP. It also has two different approaches. If you notice it's dead and want to try to re-start it, you'll need to post stating your intention. If you're just posting wanting to join where there has clearly been no one else for 6 months or a year that's just going to be necroposting, because you aren't stating your intention to revive it personally. You are saying you want to join something which has no one running or guiding it.

It's a lot to do with the approach you take.