God/Religion. Why?

[sayian]

I have had a question digging in the back of my head since the day I mutilated my old work ute into a tree at 100km/h.

How do you differentiate between a god and fate or luck.

I myself believe that it was luck that I was able to steer the vehicle as well as I did considering the fact that I think I closed my eyes just before I hit it.

But other people would take it that god had saved them that day.

Interesting to know that my great grandmother on my wifes side of the family especially blessed our family in her prayers that night/morning.

Taking this into to account I still don't believe in a god and I don't have a religious faith. When you think about it I take it to be a naive approach to life and I don't mean any disrespect by this comment, but when you look at ancient history and see what the people of old believed in and that each country and race of people had many and different gods because the were naive they had nothing else to believe in they had no way of explaining how things happened.
What I believe was that religion and gods were created to rally people to follow one person for example many leadership figures also claimed to be prophets and or channels of gods.



On another note
Having faith in a religion or being religious doesn't provide that person good moral values, the person themselves is the only person that has control over that, religion may teach their values and morals but it is within the person to execute those teachings. Not only that but it also comes down to how a person was raised by their parents, 100% of how we raise our children is embedded into our brains on how we were raised by our parents.
We are not born with the ability to be perfect parents as soon as we come out of the womb.
So it is up to the individual to either pass the moral values that they were taught or to correct what their parents have instilled upon them as long as you can pull yourself up on these things.

Sure u can look the words "luck" or "fate" in the dictionary but God is in our essence. The difference is u don't need to look God up or do research. We as human have faults which includes mistranslation of communication through time.. but the ONLY thing GOD wrote Himself and would not entrust in man to document on is the Ten Commandments. and all 10 of them are in us.

Yea, argue about the bible and fight over what the bible translates into or that it contradicts itself all you want because its not entirely about the bible. Argue about religion this or that all you want because its not about religion. Sound very smart and well thought out if u can, but u cant argue what God wrote Himself in our essence.. No1 cheats on their spouse without knowing they're sinning. No1 commits murder without knowing they're sinning. No1 uses Gods name in vein without feeling any amount of fear. Give me an example of a perfect lie.. u cant.. No1 steals without trying to be sneaky.. and so on.

We all know whats wrong, and just as well, we all know whats right... <- you're not gonna find that in the dictionary and u don't even need a bible to know that.

personally, i don't believe there's a single man on earth who genuinely doesn't believe in God. its impossible. they just embrace their sins a little too much and try to come up with excuses to justify their illegitimate denial of believing in Gods existence to make themselves feel less bad about sinning. they'll be trying until they're dead because its in our essence to know and feel bad for disobeying..

So for the ones who act like they don't know... Y'all know! For every argument we can come up with, point you prove, or religion you dont support or understand... We dont need any of that.. Gods word is in us already, and He wants us to apply it.

[Xanatos]

I don't really like to talk about religion, it never ends well... nevertheless, I'll share a word or two this time.

I was raised as a Roman Catholic. I had my doubts, for quite some time I refused to believe there's such thing as higher power, and even if God does exist, he gave up on us long time ago. I do however believe in higher power, a God if you will, though I lost my faith in church. Church is full of hypocrites and people who judge others, a guy siting on a gold chair surrounded by pure gold statues is telling me I should be humble and help others. I don't know about other places, but here church asks way too much, and in return does bare minimum if anything to help those who genuinely need help.

Why do I believe in God? It's kinda hard to explain. This world, the entire universe is just way to beautiful and complex to pop out of nothing, and I feel better and secure believing there's more to it than meets the eye.

To each it's own I say, thus I condemn those who force their religion on others, and those who use religion the way they see fit, for instance to make profit, like church does nowdays.

[OnOneRyder]

Yea, argue about the bible and fight over what the bible translates into or that it contradicts itself all you want because its not entirely about the bible. Argue about religion this or that all you want because its not about religion. Sound very smart and well thought out if u can, but u cant argue what God wrote Himself in our essence.. No1 cheats on their spouse without knowing they're sinning. No1 commits murder without knowing they're sinning. No1 uses Gods name in vein without feeling any amount of fear. Give me an example of a perfect lie.. u cant.. No1 steals without trying to be sneaky.. and so on.

We all know whats wrong, and just as well, we all know whats right... <- you're not gonna find that in the dictionary and u don't even need a bible to know that.

personally, i don't believe there's a single man on earth who genuinely doesn't believe in God. its impossible. they just embrace their sins a little too much and try to come up with excuses to justify their illegitimate denial of believing in Gods existence to make themselves feel less bad about sinning. they'll be trying until they're dead because its in our essence to know and feel bad for disobeying..

So for the ones who act like they don't know... Y'all know! For every argument we can come up with, point you prove, or religion you dont support or understand... We dont need any of that.. Gods word is in us already, and He wants us to apply it.

You do realize many of those "sins" were laws in other countries far before Christianity right? Christianity did not introduce the thought that murder and theft was wrong, that has been around much longer. They have not always been sins but they most definitely have been looked down upon for much longer than Christianity.

And you're right, I don't need a bible or dictionary to know right from wrong. It is a sense of morals I possess that have been formed by growing up in a moral environment and not wanting to cause harm to others. If you think you need god to act with positive morals.....

I think you're very arrogant to say no man does not believe in god, that is something you could never possibly know. Not to sound disrespectful (even though your claim is disrespectful to me) but you don't know what you're talking about in regards to what other people believe, you've been jaded by your religious views.

As for your experiences, I'm very happy you came out of that alive...very lucky, keyword being luck. Being able to beats the odds is not proof of god, it's proof that sometimes you get a good hand. How many times does that same situation end badly? I'm willing to bet a lot more frequently than it turns out good. Does that mean those people should have prayed? No, it means the odds were stacked against them. Your attribution of survival to proof of god is nothing new and an easy one to pick apart. I know you're going to turn around and say I'm wrong and that you "know" god saved you that day but frankly you don't know, again your religious views jade you and allow you to claim knowledge of something that is impossible to know.

[Halie]

I don't really like to talk about religion, it never ends well... nevertheless, I'll share a word or two this time.

I was raised as a Roman Catholic. I had my doubts, for quite some time I refused to believe there's such thing as higher power, and even if God does exist, he gave up on us long time ago. I do however believe in higher power, a God if you will, though I lost my faith in church. Church is full of hypocrites and people who judge others, a guy siting on a gold chair surrounded by pure gold statues is telling me I should be humble and help others. I don't know about other places, but here church asks way too much, and in return does bare minimum if anything to help those who genuinely need help.

Why do I believe in God? It's kinda hard to explain. This world, the entire universe is just way to beautiful and complex to pop out of nothing, and I feel better and secure believing there's more to it than meets the eye.

To each it's own I say, thus I condemn those who force their religion on others, and those who use religion the way they see fit, for instance to make profit, like church does nowdays.

I have a very similar view to you, I don't actually follow a religion and I don't believe in a particular God but I do feel like there's something bigger out there that we just don't know about and probably never will know about because like you said, the world is extremely complex and it had to come from somewhere/something.

I don't like religion because I personally feel like it does more harm than good, but at the same time I understand that it really does help people to have religious faith. However there are so many hypocritical people out there who take it too far and become blinded by religion. I'm not saying all religious people are blind, but I've come across so many who blindly hate others because their supposed God has told them to, and yet they try to preach peace and want to make the world a better place?

The way I see it is that I'd prefer to live my life in the now, so even if there is a God I'd still like to live my life the way I want to, because it is extremely unlikely that proof of Good will present itself in my lifetime so I may as well embrace my life and live it how I want to. I don't believe in heaven or hell, so it doesn't bother me if I commit "sins". Say I'm an extremely nice person who does many, many good things and helps people but has sex before marriage, does that mean I deserve to be shunned and deserve to go to hell? I don't think so... yet there are people who would argue that I do deserve to.

I normally don't like to talk in threads like this because some people get really touchy and mean but I keep getting drawn to it so why not.

[Sasquatch]

Yes the contributing factors play a huge role, but you're claim that religious affiliation makes them more peaceful and law abiding doesn't jive with the stats.

If they aren't more law-abiding, one could claim that it's because of their religion or despite it just as easily.

While the percentages of African Americans and Hispanics living below the poverty line and in single parent homes is significantly higher than for whites, the percentages are not off 6 times that of whites.

Their rates of religion aren't six times higher, either, so that factor alone cannot be responsible for their higher crime rates.

And you're right, I don't need a bible or dictionary to know right from wrong. It is a sense of morals I possess that have been formed by growing up in a moral environment and not wanting to cause harm to others. If you think you need god to act with positive morals.....

Some people do. Even somebody as anti-religious as you must admit that some people respect what they consider to be "moral laws" more than they respect "human laws". Respect supernatural authority more than governmental authority.

Not to sound disrespectful (even though your claim is disrespectful to me) but you don't know what you're talking about in regards to what other people believe, you've been jaded by your religious views.

I would consider it pretty arrogant to think that you are not "jaded" by your views against religion as much as anybody could be "jaded" by their views towards religion.

As for your experiences, I'm very happy you came out of that alive...very lucky, keyword being luck. Being able to beats the odds is not proof of god, it's proof that sometimes you get a good hand.

What you call "luck", "fate", "destiny", "fortune", "karma", or "chance" might just as easily be called the will of a higher power. Good or bad.

Sasquatch, are you saying that morality comes directly from religion and its teachings? So if someone made moral decisions, they would be decisions created by an absolute morality that exists because of a religion?

Morals and ethics are two different and seperate things. Ethics classes are GDRs in most colleges.

On the topic of faith, I'm still not sure if the word is meant to be used solely in a religious sense. If I park my car in the street, I dont need to have faith that it will be there when I get back.

That's why I made the distinction between religious faith and general faith. (You'd be surprised how many people reject the idea of faith at all -- I've even used the same example you did, that my vehicle will be in my garage where I left it, and they still claim that that's not faith.) Either way, we all have faith in certain things, but this topic concerns only religious faith. (And while it is true that any firm belief that relates in any way to religion -- what happens after we die, creation of the universe and its species, existence or nonexistence of supernatural beings or powers, etc. etc. -- requires faith, this topic refers more to beliefs in religion as a whole, not just the faith those beliefs require.)

[Imposter]

Questions and some explanation. I will apologize now because I don't know enough about other religions to use them as an example as well as Christianity. So forgive me for explaining beliefs in detail:

The First One: can't we all agree on the thought of a difference between claiming a religious view and actually placing one's belief/faith in one? If I recall from way earlier in this thread Rowan dropped his definition of faith which was 'blind belief?' or something close to it. However I think faith or belief is more than just saying something but that it envokes action. Example would simply be that you believe that you can consistently eat garbage and not get fat and because you believe that you consistently eat garbage. I think I agree with Sasquatch here? in that there really isn't a difference between general belief and religious belief, other than of course the object of said belief. I also remember Rowan bringing up the thought of experience and because he experienced getting paid for the work he did it wasn't faith. I think though if you trace that back far enough though there would be a time when you couldn't rely on your own experience. Like the first time you got a job? Instead you relied on what you were told by your employer and the people around you, or what you saw from other people. I think from that you can trace that to the realm of religion. Every religion has witnesses(whether ancient writings or prophets) that bear witness of what they believe is true so you accept that (you believe) as truth and so on.

The reason I bring this up is because if people who labelled themselves as Christians(for example) and actually believed what it means to be a Christian wouldn't live a life that was in contrast to the standard of biblical living outlined in the Bible. Not out of fear or condemnation mind out but out of their belief in the fact that God showed his love through the sacrifice of the Son so that mankind could be justified and no longer held guilty and deserving of God's wrath. I mean if people truly believed that it would change the way they live(would you really break the laws and deface the God that did that and openly live a sinful life?). I think the problem with what OnOneRyder is saying in his stat dropping is that people are only wearing the label and not actually believing or it could be that they are sincere in their belief but sincerely wrong. I think this is very possible because even in the evangelical circles I run in there are many people who claim a belief but either are doing it for the wrong reason(ie the claim Christianity but only because they want people to make them feel good about themselves on a sunday or whatever) or they live hypocritical lives that go against biblical teaching. (A quick example would be the 'christians' that protest homosexuality or abortion and completely make Christians look like friggin' nutjobs. If you want I can drop references that are in direct contradiction to those christian types.)

Question the second:
Is it not possible that mankind's questioning of such things be an evidence that there is something beyond us? I'm not sure how an athiest might explain this one but allow me the grace of giving mine. We are the only things in the known universe that question the reasoning of life or our existence or whatever you'd like to call it. Now I'm not totally sure about all you lot but because you have all reasoned stuff out enough to post here should be an indication that at one time you've wrestled with the deep questions right? Like: 'Is this all there is? Is there something greater out there? Why do we exist?' Whatever conclusion you came to really is irrelevant for the time being but the fact that you tried to figure it out could be an indication that there is something more.

How you might ask? Look at every other living creature, heck even those that are close to as intelligent as we are. Nothing reasons, they just live by this I mean that they don't question their existence, they don't question if there is more to life or not. Now that might seem simple but if say perhaps mankind was made in the image of God being separate from everything else that would explain why we try to figure out the essence of what life is about and they don't. I guess you may be able to argue that we are just highly evolved but I mean pigs and dolphins have been around quite some time and they are pretty smart yet they don't trying to figure out what life is about.

Now before anyone pounces and gets all defensive I'm just saying this is how I would explain that. I'm actually more curious to hear your thoughts and feel free to poke holes in my logic haha.

[sayian]

You do realize many of those "sins" were laws in other countries far before Christianity right? Christianity did not introduce the thought that murder and theft was wrong, that has been around much longer. They have not always been sins but they most definitely have been looked down upon for much longer than Christianity.

And you're right, I don't need a bible or dictionary to know right from wrong. It is a sense of morals I possess that have been formed by growing up in a moral environment and not wanting to cause harm to others. If you think you need god to act with positive morals.....

I think you're very arrogant to say no man does not believe in god, that is something you could never possibly know. Not to sound disrespectful (even though your claim is disrespectful to me) but you don't know what you're talking about in regards to what other people believe, you've been jaded by your religious views.

As for your experiences, I'm very happy you came out of that alive...very lucky, keyword being luck. Being able to beats the odds is not proof of god, it's proof that sometimes you get a good hand. How many times does that same situation end badly? I'm willing to bet a lot more frequently than it turns out good. Does that mean those people should have prayed? No, it means the odds were stacked against them. Your attribution of survival to proof of god is nothing new and an easy one to pick apart. I know you're going to turn around and say I'm wrong and that you "know" god saved you that day but frankly you don't know, again your religious views jade you and allow you to claim knowledge of something that is impossible to know.

I apologize if u feel i disrespected you. I didnt come out stating blame, allegations or, "claims". I SAID, "Personally I dont believe".. I stated my thoughts and spoke from within. You call that arrogance when its really just peace of mind and faith.

The 10 commandments (Gods words Himself) were established BEFORE Christianity. Before that word existed. Christianity (studied methods of Jesus during his time here on earth setting an example) modified the idea of compassion. That pretty much irrelevantized(<-word i just made up) that first argument..
You may wanna look up the word survival and tell me where that applies in anything i said. And, its not "claim of knowledge", its recognizing moral consciousness.

I have and established and understand my
FAITH(theism)
THEISM(yes im a believer)
RELIGION (not needed)
REASON(been tryna reason with this guy^) lol
CORRELATION (my relationship with God was encouraged by, but was not establised via any religion, but acknowledging my essence)
MORALITY(Gods word)
CAUSATION(my faith and act on praying causes God to listen)
RATIONALITY im not lucky.. lucky is something u try to get.. every time i go to the damn casino, i lose atleast $200.. that crackhead that sat and hit the jackpot next to me was lucky....lol call me stupid for that as well as unlucky. But, despite my many sins, i do believe in God and i know that chain of events that nite was not me getting "lucky".. had no control or knowledge of what was happening to keep me from killing myself on 4 occasions, but I made it home like i asked. and my vette is out of commission so i wouldnt keep driving like a bat outta hell while asleep..

[Rowan]

I feel we need to clarify a few things. Lets talk more about 'faith' and what it means. After reading your posts sasquatch, I feel you didnt explain clearly enough, or perhaps Im not quite on the level you are. I dont believe in a 'general faith' that means nothing to do with god or religion. The reason for this is because Faith in my opinion is defined as a blind belief, nothing more. The opposite to this would be a belief that is backed up by some form of reason, I call this Trust.

Lets talk about the car anology once more in fine detail.

I trust my car will be where I parked it because I have locked it, and that gives me reason to believe that someone cannot break into it. You cannot apply faith to this logic because faith (in its very definition) is a belief based on nothing. If you have a reason, you can have trust. If you have no reason, then you have faith.

Having said that, in the most simplest of terms, a religion defines itself upon having faith. Saiyan has faith and he believes it has helped him. I think you would benefit GREATLY in future if you rely less on blind belief, and not driving when you are tired in the hopes that having faith in a god might save you again. I also think that its wrong to believe that your god would only help those who worshipped him, he sounds selfish.

I had to redefine some of my statements to truly express my views towards religion and the idea of god. I dont think theres anything wrong with wanting to believe theres a god, it would be a nice feeling to know loved ones would be watching you from somewhere after they die. I think its wrong to believe that you claim to KNOW this without having any evidence. That you would blindly promote faith to others, which is the same as promoting ignorance IMO.

[nix]

The 10 commandments (Gods words Himself) were established BEFORE Christianity.

How do you know god wrote out the 10 commandments?

Buddhism is older than any christian religion (by about 1500) and makes more sense.
Christianity is about 2500 years old and the earth is millions of years old, so in your eyes god was sitting around for millions of years and then 2012 years ago decided to create his religion?

Anybody who believes in an all powerful being living up in the sky always watching us and doing nothing to help is a retard. Its complete nonsense, as the years go by, more and more people are realising this and it will eventually fade out. Just like people who believed the earth was flat.

We are the first conscious beings with wonderous imaginations, god didnt create the commandments, or religion. We did! People who think otherwise cant and have not been able to prove the existence of a god without trying to refer to the bible or whatever. They pawn off their beliefs as fact which is just the height of ignorance and selfishness.

Christianity traveled like a plague across europe, heck America didnt have any idea of this religion until Columbus started feeding them the shit. So really, you're educated about this religion by a man, not by a god or supreme being, i honestly cannot believe people still buy into this crap considering all that we have discovered ourselves..

Have faith? no faith but what we make!

Humanity, please cop on and think for yourself and start LIVING, you're hampering your life with this crap.

[Unknown Entity]

How do you differentiate between a god and fate or luck.

I actually tried to find a picture in reply to you and sayian, but couldn't remember where I stumbled on to it. It's of someone going for a live saving operation, where this person's life will literally be in the hands of the surgeon that day. Yet that surgeon isn't thanked - God is. If it was God's way and the natural way of things, that person wouldn't be alive.

Religion is a blind faith, no matter how you put it. I actually don't believe that there's a force or energy called "fate" or "luck", as if the results of them were premeditated. If I'd believed as so, then God probably would appeal to my beliefs as well.

Fate is merely coincidence, same with luck I guess. People just like to think of fate as a better way of putting something, like a relationship or job application. "It was fate that we both fancied a coffee that lunch time, and locked eyes at that very moment in the coffee shop..." There's seven billion people in the world, and if it's anything like the four Starbucks outlets near my work, there were a lot of people fancying a coffee during their lunch break. I think stuff like that takes some control out of your life.

Now luck is something different. It's more of a wish, surprise or state of approval. The lottery is based off of luck, and I dislike the math of trying to predict the winning numbers by averaging how many times each number has showed up and the likely-hood of it appearing again. Just because ball 23 has appeared x-number of times more than ball 33, ball 33 is more likely to get a chance some time soon - bullshit. I should hope that the balls are selected at complete random every time. Regardless on whether you picked your numbers yourself or got a lucky dip, it's pure luck if you win anything.

I will hand it to religion for morals, and learning between right and wrong. The Bible is full of stories that teach morals. But I also think those same morals can be taught without a religion behind them. You don't need to teach blind faith to someone to get them to play nice. It depends on your upbringing and the values your parents teach you. I was raised as a Christian at school, and at home my mother kept religion in a safe place not quite near or too far when teaching me right from wrong. She wanted me to decide for myself if religion was for me. I wasn't a bad kid, and I've grown up pretty well. However, I'm not holding it against religion, but I was bullied by 90% of my class as a child in a Church of England school, where religion was supposedly supposed to teach right from wrong. Kids will be kids, and all that but I doubt religion makes for a better upbringing than a good parent would.

I don't know about everyone else, but I think there being a higher force that dictates what you can and can't do, and had written your life story out before you've even lived it is a little depressing. What would be the point of anything if all you were is some role in someone else's sick fantasy?

[Heartless Angel]

Sure u can look the words "luck" or "fate" in the dictionary but God is in our essence.

That's a fairly bold claim to make with nothing but your own belief to support it. The word essence implies that it is required for us to be what we are. Am I not a human being because I'm atheist? To my knowledge, my species is the same as yours regardless of our differing beliefs. If God is in our essence and we all just instinctively KNOW what it means, who it is, then why are there so many different religions in present day? Why are there so many dead religions, all drastically different from yours? Why are there atheists who don't believe in any God at all (In spite of your claim there aren't any, I assure you you're quite incorrect)?

The difference is u don't need to look God up or do research.

Or is it that you CAN'T look God up or do research, because there is no factual material on the subject to examine?

but the ONLY thing GOD wrote Himself and would not entrust in man to document on is the Ten Commandments. and all 10 of them are in us.

If it's naturally in all of us, and all of us naturally believe in God and these commandments, then why is it that they are literally being violated by hundreds if not thousands of people at this and every other moment?

Sound very smart and well thought out if u can, but u cant argue what God wrote Himself in our essence.

I think you'll find that I can.

No1 cheats on their spouse without knowing they're sinning.

Ever watch Jerry Springer, or Maury, or any of those shows? There are tons of people who don't think twice about such things. However, ignoring that, let's look at the basic flaw in that statement. You use the word spouse, defined as the one to whom you are married. Marriage being a religious thing. Anybody who HAS a 'spouse' must then have some belief in your religion. So yes, any religious person who violates their own religion is probably aware that they are violating their religion. That religion however is not present in all people's lives. I could cheat on my girl all night long if I felt like it. I could probably get away with it. I wouldn't give an aardvark's anus what a priest thought about it, if I felt bad at all, it would be for how my girl would feel if she found out.

No1 commits murder without knowing they're sinning.

You might be surprised. There are all kinds of extremists who think murder is justified by and committed in the name of the same God you defend. Also something for you to ponder when you consider your God being a part of our 'essence'. How many young men were rushing to join the military to kill enemies for the sake of their country? Some men, depending on the circumstances will kill with a smile on their face and without a second thought.

No1 uses Gods name in vein without feeling any amount of fear.

I do it all the time. I don't fear 'God' punishing me any more than I fear the Sand Man seeing me naked when he comes to put me to sleep at night, because I don't believe he exists.

Give me an example of a perfect lie.. u cant.

Duh? If you knew about the lie, you clearly saw through it and realized it was not the truth. It was therefore not perfect. So of course one could not give an example of the perfect lie, if they tried, they only proved the imperfection in the lie. Your asking for somebody to prove a logical contradiction does not prove anything at all.

No1 steals without trying to be sneaky.. and so on.

And why is this do you suppose? Because they think God won't see them? Their 'essence' must have been missing the knowledge that your God is omniscient and that hiding from it is impossible. Or, we could go with the less ridiculous assumption; that they're trying to be sneaky in an attempt to go undetected by those whom it is possible to deceive. Like, y'know, other people, law enforcement, etc...

We all know whats wrong, and just as well, we all know whats right... <- you're not gonna find that in the dictionary and u don't even need a bible to know that

Actually, we don't. Some of the smartest philosophers throughout history have argued over the essential nature of morality, and none have proven a thing. In fact, there are more theories of morality than I could even list, but I'll throw some out just for fun.

Hedonism: What is right, is what brings one the most pleasure.
Utilitarianism: What is right is whatever creates the most happiness.
Cultural relativism: What is right is whatever your culture believes is right.
Subjectivism: What is right is whatever the individual believes is right.
"The Golden Rule": What is right, is whatever you would have others do to you.

There are tons. All very different. Most include some of the same rules, but not all. I accept another theory entirely, one known as Moral Nihilism, the belief that there is no right or wrong in any objective sense, and therefore the terms are basically meaningless. In spite of this, I'm not a serial killer, a pathological liar, a kleptomaniac, or anything else you might think would result in a lack of morality. When I choose not to do something, it is because the negative consequences outweigh the positive, not because I feel the divine watching me or because I've considered it unethical or immoral.

personally, i don't believe there's a single man on earth who genuinely doesn't believe in God. its impossible. they just embrace their sins a little too much and try to come up with excuses to justify their illegitimate denial of believing in Gods existence to make themselves feel less bad about sinning. they'll be trying until they're dead because its in our essence to know and feel bad for disobeying.

This is possibly one of the most arrogant claims I've read anywhere. Because you can't fathom yourself without your faith, doesn't mean anybody else feels the same way. It is in fact quite possible. Not only possible, but for those who like logic and reason, quite easy actually. Your labeling of anyone who claims not to share in your beliefs being a sinner 'embracing sins' is quite frankly, pathetic. You wanna talk excuses, how about the excuses the religious come up with to cling to their beliefs when logic, reason, and science blast it full of holes? Something like...

Yea, argue about the bible and fight over what the bible translates into or that it contradicts itself all you want because its not entirely about the bible. Argue about religion this or that all you want because its not about religion. Sound very smart and well thought out if u can, but u cant argue what God wrote Himself in our essence.

For the record, I don't feel bad in the slightest about 'sinning' as your religion defines it. In fact, in most cases, I find it quite enjoyable. If I didn't gain something from it, I wouldn't bother. I also don't believe in any kind of essence, let alone your biased, unproven definition of it. There's another fancy theory a very smart man put forth referred to as existentialism, the theory that there is no essential nature to man, and that man's only 'essence' is defined by his own existence, not before it.

So for the ones who act like they don't know... Y'all know! For every argument we can come up with, point you prove, or religion you dont support or understand... We dont need any of that.. Gods word is in us already, and He wants us to apply it.

You throw the word 'know' around pretty flippantly, I'm beginning to wonder if you actually understand what it means. Knowledge is generally defined as having three three parts.

1: A belief about something in reality.
2: A reason for that belief.
3: The truth of that belief.

Thus far, you've got 1/3. The easy one unfortunately. In fact, in the statement above, you openly reject the second, and arguably most important part of knowledge. And then you conclude with some circular reasoning. Circular reasoning and strong belief, no matter how good they make you feel, can NEVER take the place of knowledge.

By all means you're entitled to your beliefs, and I apologize if I've offended you with any of this, but to those seeking knowledge and truth, it takes a lot more than what you've offered here to satisfy them.

I trust my car will be where I parked it because I have locked it, and that gives me reason to believe that someone cannot break into it. You cannot apply faith to this logic because faith (in its very definition) is a belief based on nothing. If you have a reason, you can have trust. If you have no reason, then you have faith.

I know you and I have argued on this one before, and I don't wanna spend too much time here, but I think I've finally figured out the best way to explain my view on this to you. Logic in it's purest form is absolute certainty established by airtight deduction, without the slightest degree of inaccuracy in the evidence, its analysis or interpretation. We don't see much of this in reality, as we established in our arguments in VMs a while back. We also don't mean this when we use the word logic, we're referring to the mixture of logic and faith which is dominated mostly by the logic, because that is the piece we prefer to use, even when we can't make our ideas purely out of logic.

Faith in it's purest form is exactly as you suggest, belief without any knowledge whatsoever of the subject. We also never see this in reality, even the most ludicrous views are based on something, no matter how irrational, there is some semblance of knowledge contained in the belief. Even when the logic is faulty or incomplete, there is some logic mixed in. For example, the argument from design, no matter how many holes we can poke in the logic, there was still an attempt at using logic to establish the conclusion from what a person knew. To have pure faith, one would have to have literally no knowledge, no experience, no reason. Anybody with any of the five senses functioning and memories is therefore incapable of basing something purely on faith (other than the fundamental beliefs we discussed in our previous arguments that have to come even before the senses). So as with logic, when we say faith, we don't really mean pure faith, just a the mixture of logic and faith which we believe to be lacking in sufficient logic for the mixture to serve its purpose of reaching a reasonable conclusion.

Trust, probably the best word for it, so I'll use your word here, is any mixture of faith and logic. Here's where you and I differ, you see trust as some homogeneous mixture of faith and logic, perhaps even a compound that no longer has the same traits of either of its parts, I see it as a system of the two functioning together to accomplish the common goal of reaching a conclusion, but still as separate pieces. Trust is not pure faith, but faith is inseparable from it. You can not have trust without having faith to mix with your knowledge, experience, and logic. Faith in this sense, is nothing more or less than what we use to bridge the gap of uncertainty left in our logical explanations for things. Back to the car example, you don't KNOW your car is there, you can't make the claim based solely on logic unless you have absolute certainty (which we know we don't), but you have sufficient faith to account for the uncertainty, and jump to the conclusion. Some beliefs require more faith than others to account for uncertainty, but all beliefs do. Religion acknowledges this faith in the same way that a good scientist acknowledges the possibility that he is wrong.

[RamesesII]

You do realize many of those "sins" were laws in other countries far before Christianity right? Christianity did not introduce the thought that murder and theft was wrong, that has been around much longer. They have not always been sins but they most definitely have been looked down upon for much longer than Christianity.
.

Similar to what I was going to say, people knew these things were wrong before the were so called written on the tablets from the mountain.
Lest go back when homo sapiens first and only need was to survive, our one true thing that governed humans was instinct and still is in our genetic make up, may hap early man would have fought and killed each other if the need to survive was dire but as we started to evolve we learnt that we didn't have to cause destruction to survive as much so therefore we realised that killing someone was wrong and was unnecessary.

Deep down every person has the capability of killing another human but only in the most dire of situations when all that is left is instinct and the willingness to survive, some people just have it closer to the surface than others. But I am going off track and rambling as usual.

What I was trying to say is that there were many religions well before Christianity and even before these populations of people resorted to their gods, they knew right from wrong. There may have even been a populace that worship pregnant women, I mean why not a woman bringing new life into the world and back then miracle is an understatement so they were treated as deities. Maybe people believed in mother earth herself who isn't to say there was a Giaism. I know the indigenous people of Australia believed in the earth and the water and the sky, yeah the may have given these vital bringers of life metaphorical figures but that's why they called it the dreamtime.

Buddhism is older than any christian religion (by about 1500) and makes more sense.

As is Taoism and even Sun religions such as the Egyptians ( I should know I am one ), Incas, Mayans and Aztecs why not the thing that gives light, grows plants essentially brings water, once again it's just the sun now we know today but what was it to them, the most powerful thing they could see that's what it was.

Religion is a blind faith, no matter how you put it. I actually don't believe that there's a force or energy called "fate" or "luck", as if the results of them were premeditated. If I'd believed as so, then God probably would appeal to my beliefs as well.

Fate is merely coincidence, same with luck I guess.

Fate is "that which is inevitably predetermined" I dare say we should all believe in Fate, after all it is all our fate to die at some point in time. Even I the great Ramses the second will at some stage come to an end.

This reminds me of a quote by Charles Darwin I think I can't remember correct me if I am wrong,
how does it go "The only two certainties in life are death and taxes."

EDIT- on further inspection it was Mark Twain who supposedly said this.

[nix]

Yeah but atleast the sun grants life and light on the earth and possibly elsewhere, we may have discovered other life in the universe if we didnt get hung up on religion, thats 2 amazing things more than the phantom god that does nothing at all but hamper the lives of humanity.

[Sasquatch]

All this topic has devolved to is whiny crybabies insulting religious people for having faith different than their own. It is sheer and utter ignorance to think that any of us are completely without faith, and complete arrogance to think that people with faith different from our own are foolish, stupid, or "retarded". Hatred of religion in general and those who follow it is no different from the extremists in each religion and their hatred of those who don't agree with them.

I dont believe in a 'general faith' that means nothing to do with god or religion. The reason for this is because Faith in my opinion is defined as a blind belief, nothing more.

Then your opinion is wrong. Faith is a belief not based on proven truth -- not evidence, not support, not reason, but proven truth.

The opposite to this would be a belief that is backed up by some form of reason, I call this Trust.

Call it what you want, it's still faith. Faith is a belief not based on truth -- unless you know, for a fact, that your car is in the parking lot, you only have faith that it is. You have faith that it's not been stolen, you have faith that it's not been blown up, you have faith that it's not been replaced with a car of the same year/make/model, you have faith that it isn't a Decepticon. Sure, most faith is easy to have, but that doesn't make it not faith.

I also think that its wrong to believe that your god would only help those who worshipped him, he sounds selfish.

Who said that God only helps those who worship Him?

I think its wrong to believe that you claim to KNOW this without having any evidence. That you would blindly promote faith to others, which is the same as promoting ignorance IMO.

Just like you promote your faith in the nonexistence of a god? Since the existence of a higher power cannot be proven either way, any belief either way would be based on faith.

Buddhism is older than any christian religion (by about 1500) and makes more sense.

There is only one Christian religion, so I don't know which of "any christian religion [sic]" you're referring to. If you're referring to Abrahamic monotheistic religions, however, Christianity is simply an extension of Judaism, which has been around for about 3,000 years ... Buddha lived about 2500 years ago. And while Christianity came around about 2000 years ago (seriously, it's 2012 AD, how do think we number our years? How did you get that Christianity is 2500 years old?), if you are claiming Buddhism as older than Christianity specifically and now Judaism, it would be by about 500 years, not 1500 years.

Christianity is about 2500 years old and the earth is millions of years old, so in your eyes god was sitting around for millions of years and then 2012 years ago decided to create his religion?

First, according to Christianity (and some supporting science -- but this isn't the place), the earth isn't millions of years old. Second, as I said, Christianity is an extension of Judaism. That's why most of the Torah (Jewish holy book) is part of the Old Testament, included in the Bible (Christian holy book). Christianity basically took the tenents of Judaism and added forgiveness without sacrifice.

Anybody who believes in an all powerful being living up in the sky always watching us and doing nothing to help is a retard.

Nice. Displaying your intellect and maturity yet again, I see.

If it was God's way and the natural way of things, that person wouldn't be alive.

Claiming to know God's will and hinting that God has absolutely nothing to do with guiding science and medicine? No, that's not pompous at all.

Religion is a blind faith, no matter how you put it.

Just because you don't see the same thing as somebody else doesn't mean that they (or you) have any sort of blind faith. Faith in religion is just as "blind" as faith against religion.

How many young men were rushing to join the military to kill enemies for the sake of their country? Some men, depending on the circumstances will kill with a smile on their face and without a second thought.

You really aren't so ignorant to think that all killing is murder, are you?

Yeah but atleast the sun grants life and light on the earth and possibly elsewhere, we may have discovered other life in the universe if we didnt get hung up on religion, thats 2 amazing things more than the phantom god that does nothing at all but hamper the lives of humanity.

You must be forgetting how much science, exploration, and medicine have been pursued in the name of religion.

[Heartless Angel]

You really aren't so ignorant to think that all killing is murder, are you?

Last I checked, th commandment was "Thou shallt not kill", not "Thou shallt not commit homicide as defined by your local law making body.", so my original staement that not all people give a rat's ass about the commandments still stands.

[nix]

Sasquatch, you missed my whole point, it doesnt matter what religion came first, its ALL BULLSHIT.

And the earth is millions of years old, dont tell me you're one of them fundamental christians? as they are the lowest form of scum when it comes to any religion imo

Christianity is an extension of judaism?? What?? That very fact should have your beliefs collapsing. How does a religion change? Was it just the name that changed?

Its like humans constantly changing the bible, giving different versions, how does that even come to pass? Its so diluted and blatantly a creation of man, not god..

WHAT WE THINK GOD MEANT TO SAY WAS....

I've never had so much faith

Which exact religion and bible do you follow Sas? All religions nowadays come with an asterix.

[Imposter]

Heartless if I may try to shed some light on the defining of words here. In the Septuigant the greek translation of the old testament and what was used to translate many bibles into other langauges (Even some if not most of the english literal translations as there is a difference between a literal translation and what is a thought for thought translation.) the word kill in the greek of that commandment is φονεύω (phoneuō) which actually means to be a murderer or murder/slay this word stems from φονεύς (phoneus) which means to intentionally murder someone. It is stuff like this that makes the english translations of the Bible suck hard...because we lose the real meaning of words from what was in the original languages.

So nix, Christianity is more like a deviation from Judaism because judaism holds to many of the same beliefs as do Christians except that they don't believe the Messiah has come yet while Christians believe the Messiah was Jesus Christ(The second person of the trinity come in the flesh). So that is the biggest difference because a Christians whole belief system really stems from the fact that the Messiah was the propipiation/atonement for sin and set us right with God, saying Jesus was the Messiah and has already come while those that hold to Judaism are still waiting. That being said I think Judaism has changed some itself since and is mostly a works based religion. (You do enough good and you'll outweigh your bad.)

So the whole translation thing started simply as putting the bible in a different language however that spread into people trying to give different meanings to words and what not. That is why most conservative Christians hold to a plenary inspired word. That only the original langauges are what God has perserved over time as his actual word. Hence why people still translate from them today.

This all being said might not actually mean much cause I'm just a retard X)

[Rowan]

Who said that God only helps those who worship Him?

Saiyan said that If he had been a non believer in god, that he would have died that night. It was directed toward his statement. Although in the bible it states that if you reject jesus as your lord and savior you will not go to heaven.

Also, I had a look at link you sent and it said nothing about "PROVEN truth", just 'truth' and what is truth to someone is obviously subjective to what is fact. You seem to think this is all semantics, its not. I will now quote from the very link that you sent to me right here
Faithstrong or unshakeable belief in something, esp without proof or evidence
FaithA conviction of the truth of certain doctrines of religion, esp when this is not based on reason
Faithbelief in anything, as a code of ethics

Believing in something without question, for doing so would break the christian code of ethics.

[OnOneRyder]

All this topic has devolved to is whiny crybabies insulting religious people for having faith different than their own.

Not everyone here possesses faith when it comes to the existence of a deity. I don't claim to know either way, my beliefs are free from those chains.

Just because you don't see the same thing as somebody else doesn't mean that they (or you) have any sort of blind faith. Faith in religion is just as "blind" as faith against religion.

Faith in the existence of an unknowable deity is about as blind as one could get, whilst rejection of that same proposed deity is simply a conclusion you reach after using sound logic to scrutinize what your senses have allowed you to experience. I agree that as soon as an individual claims to know either way they've both adopted faith, but the rejection of the proposition of a deity is in no way claiming knowledge which is why it is not based in faith.

Will you actually argue that you know there to be a god?

[sayian]

How do you know god wrote out the 10 commandments?

Buddhism is older than any christian religion (by about 1500) and makes more sense.
Christianity is about 2500 years old and the earth is millions of years old, so in your eyes god was sitting around for millions of years and then 2012 years ago decided to create his religion?

Anybody who believes in an all powerful being living up in the sky always watching us and doing nothing to help is a retard. Its complete nonsense, as the years go by, more and more people are realising this and it will eventually fade out. Just like people who believed the earth was flat.

We are the first conscious beings with wonderous imaginations, god didnt create the commandments, or religion. We did! People who think otherwise cant and have not been able to prove the existence of a god without trying to refer to the bible or whatever. They pawn off their beliefs as fact which is just the height of ignorance and selfishness.

Christianity traveled like a plague across europe, heck America didnt have any idea of this religion until Columbus started feeding them the shit. So really, you're educated about this religion by a man, not by a god or supreme being, i honestly cannot believe people still buy into this crap considering all that we have discovered ourselves..

Have faith? no faith but what we make!

Humanity, please cop on and think for yourself and start LIVING, you're hampering your life with this crap.

wow.. really? i think you are a being on earth with wondrous imaginations.

you dont make any sense.. how was Christianity founded before CHRIST??
give me something please..
Started at around 30 AD, Christianity is based on the teachings and life of Jesus Christ. Christianity was founded in the first century in Palestine by the disciples of Jesus.<-- now i am by no means a spokesperson for Christians or that religion, but bs was founded and corrected..

thou shalt not put any gods before Me

we all know thats one of and perhaps the most important one.

you tell me who that "ME" is.

[nix]

Dont take my approximations as exact info, i dont care for religion as its clearly made up nonsense.

Jesus done well for himself back then as people were alot more gullible and stupid, same as today. New religions gaining alot of followers, just look at Scientology for example.

My point being, there are so many religions all based on belief of some random yahoo in time talking complete horse shit and NOT ONE RELIGION can provide any proof of an existence of their alleged god.

Thats my point, you cant prove anything and science has proven alot, take the story of adam and eve for example, the first humans placed on earth by god, Which is countered by science with the evolution of man evolving from other animals.

So that story of the bible is obviously fiction which leads me to believe, the rest of it is, but yet you take it as absolute truth?

CMON!!!

[sayian]

Dont take my approximations as exact info, i dont care for religion as its clearly made up nonsense.

Jesus done well for himself back then as people were alot more gullible and stupid, same as today. New religions gaining alot of followers, just look at Scientology for example.

My point being, there are so many religions all based on belief of some random yahoo in time talking complete horse shit and NOT ONE RELIGION can provide any proof of an existence of their alleged god.

Thats my point, you cant prove anything and science has proven alot, take the story of adam and eve for example, the first humans placed on earth by god, Which is countered by science with the evolution of man evolving from other animals.

So that story of the bible is obviously fiction which leads me to believe, the rest of it is, but yet you take it as absolute truth?

CMON!!!

as for Heartless Angel, i cant figure out how to make multiple quotes like that. to reply and attempt to reason with u.. otherwise, id get in that ass! ..lol but id like to point out that i never mentioned my religion, or if i was religious for that matter, nor did i open a bible or use it as a source for my faith. speaking of sources, please dont ever come at anybody with "maury", "jerry springer", or any tv show, especially if u want to "sound very smart and well thought out". find out the difference between killing som1 and committing murder too. lol fun argument though!


eeh.. in that case(Nix), any argument is disputable unless u apply math. the truth or false conclusion is decided from within. given my experiences, feelings, blessing, and uncommon sense, my belief in God is.. i just thought id share my personal testimony with u guys..
thanx for the convos it actually made me think deeper than i ever have..

yaayy God!!

[Heartless Angel]

as for Heartless Angel, i cant figure out how to make multiple quotes like that. to reply and attempt to reason with u.. otherwise, id get in that ass!

Just use quote tags, if you click on quote, itll show you their text with a quote tage around it, you can just keep copying those tags around different pieces of text. to get it in quotes. You can leave the names out of the quote tags too if you don't the name of the poster to show up in each piece.

lol but id like to point out that i never mentioned my religion, or if i was religious for that matter

Referring to the supreme being as God with a capital G and refferring to the 10 commandments makes it fairly obvious what religion you're yalking about, and it's your statements I'm arguing with, whether your beliefs happen to match them is irrelevant.

nor did i open a bible or use it as a source for my faith. speaking of sources, please dont ever come at anybody with "maury", "jerry springer", or any tv show, especially if u want to "sound very smart and well thought out".

A wonderful rebuttal except for the part where I never mentioned you citing the bible OR cited those TV shows. Those were an example, not a source. Big difference. I also don't really give two shits whether people think I 'sound smart', because I have a reason to believe eveerything I believe (Or a reason not to believe everything I don't). And I mean actual reason, not blind faith. The "I think you'll find I can" bit was in response to your claim that I couldn't argue with your opinion, not that I couldn't sound smart, my apologies, the way I quoted that did make that a bit ambiguous.

find out the difference between killing som1 and committing murder too. lol fun argument though!

Murder is generally a legal term which has different requirements and exceptions in different systems. Yes, you used the word murder, and not killing, so I suppose my rebuttal wasn't actually a perfect response to your words, but once again, the commandment was "Thou shallt not kill", not "Thou shallt not commit homicide as defined by your country's laws.", And at best your rebuttal to that refutes the example of killing in times of war. Plenty of other true 'murders' that people don't feel bad about in the slightest. Nitpick all you like, my argument still stands in opposition to yours.

[GypsyElder]

I kinda decided-- that I wanted to reply to this because I haven't actually considered what I would be term wise.

I think I would fall between a agnostic theist and fideist. I believe in a a deity or god, but I would say that my beliefs are purely based upon faith; however, I can't prove anything based on faith alone. I do not believe it's necessary to follow a strict religion. In my mind, if there is a god, It is not necessary for me, a believer, to over exaggerate my faith through a religious praise and or practices. (Not that people who are religious or that follow one are doing so.)

To keep it as simplified as possible, I feel that it is important to have beliefs, but organized religious are partially unnecessary, far too diverse, and far too complex, to take the place of non existent evidence. The fact that religions are so diverse, in a way, shows how it cannot serve as a universal piece of evidence to prove gods existence.

[Unknown Entity]

Claiming to know God's will and hinting that God has absolutely nothing to do with guiding science and medicine? No, that's not pompous at all.

I didn't make a claim. I just don't think God plays a part in the advances we make. As humans, we long to find answers and to live long enough to see some. If God exists, he gave us a lifespan and many, many incurable aliments and diseases along with a lot of things that could kill us. What's to say he doesn't want the things he put into nature to take it's natural course?

Just because you don't see the same thing as somebody else doesn't mean that they (or you) have any sort of blind faith. Faith in religion is just as "blind" as faith against religion.

OnOneRyder pretty much summed up what I meant. You used what you know to be my beliefs in what I wrote against me.

Religion is a blind faith. You can't see it, grasp it or taste it. You just have to believe, and have faith in what you believe. That's it. Doesn't make me against religion at all.

[Rowan]

Religion is a blind faith. You can't see it, grasp it or taste it. You just have to believe, and have faith in what you believe.

Not to mention, but in many religions, you are not allowed to question it. I think its very valid point to make since all religions should be looked at as equally valid/invalid as each other.

I think its time we talked about why some religions are more popular than others. How has christianity forced its way into the netherlands, wiping out the beliefs of norse mythology. How has it began to dominate the entire world.

Christianity by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

My only thoughts toward this are in its organisation. It is obviously the most organised and talked about religion. We see it in movies, television and celebreate supposed christian holidays without even knowing it. I say supposed because the holidays were stolen (date and festivities) from traditions pre-dating the religion itself. I'll refer you to this image.

[Clint]

Hatred of religion in general and those who follow it is no different from the extremists in each religion and their hatred of those who don't agree with them.

Extremists occasionally murder people. Calling a group of people "stupid," or "foolish," is nowhere close to being extreme. Words are not extreme. Actions are.

Faith is a belief not based on proven truth

Yet truth is a mindset, especially when it involves religion. What's true to one person may not be true to another person, but it doesn't make either truths false. As for them being proven, that is one of the dumbest arguments in regards to belief. Proof is a moot point.

Who said that God only helps those who worship Him?

Various religious scriptures.

There is only one Christian religion,

Aw man, the Lutherans are gonna be pissed.

How did you get that Christianity is 2500 years old?

Technically, the basis for the beliefs of Christianity have been around for 4,000 years. Three fourths of the religion existed 2,000 years before the actual religion came into being.

Christianity is an extension of Judaism. That's why most of the Torah (Jewish holy book) is part of the Old Testament, included in the Bible (Christian holy book).

Well I'm glad to see you agree that Christianity existed 4,000 years ago. Though that does contradict your previous statement. You are quite bizarre.

Claiming to know God's will and hinting that God has absolutely nothing to do with guiding science and medicine? No, that's not pompous at all.

It's actually quite logical. God doesn't have a degree in science or medicine, and therefore knows very very little about the subjects. It's not exactly his field of study.

Faith in religion is just as "blind" as faith against religion.

Faith in a religion isn't necessarily blind. Having blind faith is believing in something that you don't truly understand. As long as somebody knows what they believe, and why they believe it, it isn't blind.

There is also no such thing as "faith against religion" if you know why you don't believe in a particular religion. Faith is a belief. People have ideas and mindsets, but people don't have beliefs in not believing in something. Atheism isn't a belief, it's a mindset, or an idea. Same as discrimination, or racism, or any sort of stereotype.

You really aren't so ignorant to think that all killing is murder, are you?

All killing may not be murder, but all killing of humans by another human is murder.

And the earth is millions of years old,

Billions, actually. Prokaryotes came into being about 3.5 billion years ago, and by that time, the earth had already been around for about 3 billion years. I guess so it's about 6.5 billion years old. I don't know. That's probably not right, but it's around the general area.

How does a religion change? Was it just the name that changed?

It was the scripture that changed. Things that happened in history in the name of Judaism, aka, the magical adventures of Jesus Christ, who became a rather impressive cult of personality, were written into the bible after his untimely death. Those who chose to continue following the classic religion remained Jews, and those who chose to follow the new religion became Christians.

Its so diluted and blatantly a creation of man, not god..

There's no trees in heaven, so God didn't have paper. He also failed to invent the printing press. I don't think he knew how.

i dont care for religion as its clearly made up nonsense.

This is a perfect example of what I explained earlier to that bumbling fool Sasquatch. This is blind faith against a religion. There is no reason other then it being "made up nonsense." If religion were nonsense, it would lack a coherent meaning, yet as anybody who has unblind faith in any religion, they all have meaning if you understand what you're believing in.

Jesus done well for himself back then as people were alot more gullible and stupid, same as today.

If people were a lot more gullible and stupid, same as today, then today they would be the exact amount of both gullible and stupid as they were back then.

NOT ONE RELIGION can provide any proof of an existence of their alleged god.

Various pagan religions believed that the sun was a god. They had a great big ball of fire in the sky to prove that their god existed. I'm sure you've seen it before.

take the story of adam and eve for example, the first humans placed on earth by god, Which is countered by science with the evolution of man evolving from other animals.

Well, eventually there had to have been a first human on earth. So from a technical evolutionary standpoint, the story of Adam and Eve is true. Besides, even though humans didn't poof into existence, bacteria did, and everything alive today evolved from that.

[the cat with one eye]

Good evening everyone , thank you for letting me join this forum .
I am a Christian and have personal experiences of miracles so I don't need to see God in person as proof he exists was when he let me see miracles .
I can't stay I am going out but just wanted to give my reason why I believe in God .
Bye for now

[OnOneRyder]

Please tell us about these miracles. You're making claims of that which has never actually been recorded or experienced en masse by a trustworthy group so you'll understand my scepticism.

[Sasquatch]

Keep in mind, this is a general post, and not in direct reply to any one person ...

We get it.

You don't believe in the same religion as somebody else might. We get it. That's your right. You believe whatever you want. Good for you.

But again -- just because you don't follow the same religious belief as somebody else does not mean that they are somehow stupid. So drop the arrogant attempt at a mental superiority complex, it's really annoying. (And slightly amusingly ironic, considering most of the ones trying to employ it.)

I'll try to make an example that's easy to understand and relate to.

My truck is in my garage. My garage is not empty, there is not somebody else's vehicle in my garage, it's my truck. I firmly believe that. My faith in that idea is very strong -- so much so, in fact, that I would be comfortable saying that I know that my truck is in my garage.

Now, do I actually know that for a fact? Well, since I'm not in my garage looking at my truck's VIN, of course I don't -- for all I know, somebody could have stolen my truck, or the garage might have burned down, or aliens might have warped my truck out to their planet and replaced it with a hologram. But I have faith that my truck is in my garage, and for good reasons.

Do you know where I live? Does anybody here know where I live? If you happened to drive past my place, you would see my home, my garage, and even my truck.

That makes sense, right? You'd see my truck. Just making sure you're still with me, here.

But would you know what it was? Would you know that it's my truck, in my garage? Of course not. You just don't have the reasons that I do to believe that.

And that's all it boils down to. You don't have the same reasons we do for believing -- whether it's a religion or whether it's whose truck is in whose garage. And that's it. We may see the same things, but we see them differently, and with different reasons behind them.

So get the **** over it. As much as Atheists bitch and moan about having religion "shoved down their throats", here they are, insulting the religions of others. Obviously, you won't believe the same things as I do, because you haven't seen the same things.

Now, you might claim that people who have seen the same things are not credible or trustworthy, but here's the thing ... This may surprise you, so make sure you're sitting down. Ready? Alright, here we go.

NOBODY GIVES A SHIT WHAT YOU THINK.

I'm not sure if that's something new to you, or if you're used to being extremely unimportant, but it should be the latter. Really, do you think that if one ignorant little child on the internet was enough to make people lose their religion, that you would be the first? People believe different things than you do. So get over it. You're not smarter or better than anybody because you believe differently -- on the contrary, pretending that you are better proves otherwise. I don't know where you think you learned about any specific religion, but for the one you're attacking, the entire idea of blind faith that we're not allowed to question is not just incorrect, it's stupid.

We have our beliefs that have been reinforced by what we've been exposed to. So do you.