Is Communism Really THAT Bad?

[nickness89]

I know with Capitalism, it gives people the opportunity to ''better themselves,'' but that wil ALWAYS leave a lot of people very poor, or on the verge of living paycheck-to-paycheck. Communism is obviously the idea that land, work, food and money is evenly distributed to EVERY person, and that there is no discrimination between people, that everyone is equal.

I personally think the benefits of Communism far outweigh the benefits of Capitalism, but I don't think I'? qualified enough to make that analysis, as everybody has different ideas on this subject. Obviously there will always be those that have the ego-factor, and want to have more than others, but I think a hell of a lot of people would agree to live in a commune of sorts, kind of like in Lost, where the survivors all live, work and eat on the Island (until the SHTF )

This thread is for us all to discuss the benefits and disadvantages of Communism as opposed to Capitalism, and I'? looking forward to people's views on this debate.

[Dodie16]

Communism sounds good on paper, maybe, but definitely fails horribly when put into practice. If everyone receives the same no matter what their station is in life, then why bother doing much at all? Being able to better oneself and earn a profit through your work is a greater driving force to a person than sharing everything.

Sure, there are those that end up working paycheck to paycheck in a capitalist society, but there's always at least the chance to do/have better. Within a communist society, you won't have that, unless you're among the ones in control of the wealth distribution, and if you are, then you have other things to worry about: Your own human nature for greed. When there's a concentration of power like that, it leads to corruption, and when a person starts thinking they deserve more and also have the power to give themselves just that, the system fails.

Those are my two cents, at any rate.

[Rowan]

The consequences of disobedience in a communist country are far more brutal. You must do what they say, otherwise you are basically screwed. You are either killed or jailed. You have no vote, no say in what goes on and are basically oppressed, more so than a democracy or republic.

[nickness89]

I agree that Communism could lead to people thinking that they shouldn't bother doing anything if they are going to get a fair share of everything regardless, but that's when laws should be brought in, for instance, that if you don't do your own share of work, then you don't get that fair share of everything. The Commune would have to have laws and regulations set out, by the entire population, through communication and compromise (rather than war), and those that start any trouble that would be in the best interests of themselves only, be prosecuted.

George Carlin on Capitalism:

"But there’s a reason. There’s a reason. There’s a reason for this, there’s a reason education SUCKS, and it’s the same reason it will never, ever, EVER be fixed. It’s never going to get any better, don’t look for it, be happy with what you’ve got. Because the owners, the owners of this country don't want that. I'm talking about the real owners now, the BIG owners! The Wealthy… the REAL owners! The big wealthy business interests that control things and make all the important decisions. Forget the politicians. They are irrelevant. The politicians are put there to give you the idea that you have freedom of choice. You don't. You have no choice! You have OWNERS! They OWN YOU. They own everything. They own all the important land. They own and control the corporations. They’ve long since bought, and paid for the Senate, the Congress, the state houses, the city halls, they got the judges in their back pockets and they own all the big media companies, so they control just about all of the news and information you get to hear. They got you by the balls.

They spend billions of dollars every year lobbying, lobbying, to get what they want. Well, we know what they want. They want more for themselves and less for everybody else, but I'll tell you what they don’t want: They don’t want a population of citizens capable of critical thinking. They don’t want well informed, well educated people capable of critical thinking. They’re not interested in that. That doesn’t help them. That's against their interests. That's right. They don’t want people who are smart enough to sit around a kitchen table and think about how badly they’re getting f***ed by a system that threw them overboard 30 f***ing years ago. They don’t want that!

You know what they want? They want obedient workers. Obedient workers, people who are just smart enough to run the machines and do the paperwork. And just dumb enough to passively accept all these increasingly s***ty jobs with the lower pay, the longer hours, the reduced benefits, the end of overtime and vanishing pension that disappears the minute you go to collect it, and now they’re coming for your Social Security money. They want your retirement money. They want it back so they can give it to their criminal friends on Wall Street, and you know something? They’ll get it. They’ll get it all from you sooner or later cause they own this f***ing place! Its a big club, and you ain’t in it! You, and I, are not in the big club.

By the way, its the same big club they use to beat you over the head with all day long when they tell you what to believe. All day long beating you over the head with their media telling you what to believe, what to think and what to buy. The table has tilted folks. The game is rigged and nobody seems to notice. Nobody seems to care! Good honest hard-working people; white collar, blue collar it doesn’t matter what color shirt you have on. Good honest hard-working people continue, these are people of modest means, continue to elect these rich **** suckers who don’t give a f*** about you… they don’t give a f*** about you… they don’t give a F*** about you. They don’t care about you at all… at all… AT ALL. And nobody seems to notice. Nobody seems to care. That's what the owners count on. The fact that Americans will probably remain willfully ignorant of the big red, white and blue **** that's being jammed up their assholes everyday, because the owners of this country know the truth. Its called the American Dream,because you have to be asleep to believe it."

I agree with this, I agree that you can't even have a shit nowadays without being monitored in some way. Look at the past couple of days, if you read the news websites, and you may have heard of these examples recently, of Capitalist Governments and police abusing their power, because they have the support of money. A boy was arrested, handcuffed and charged for BURPING in class ffs! I'd rather live in a commune, and do work where I get the same share as everybody else, and have laws preventing people from getting too lazy for their own good. you make a good point that people will strive to achieve better, but I think that's a minor sacrifice in favour of the greater good of humanity, rather than the suffering of a population.

P.S. I live on the breadline, as do most of my family and friends, and it doesn't give us a feeling of striving to achieve better, when we know that nowadays, the chances of becoming better are becoming more than slim (in the UK anyway, not sure about USA etc.).

Oh yeah I forgot to mention, China's economy is growing faster than most countries, they are expected to overtake the US within the next decade or two, and they're a communist society ... it looks like it does better in real life than it does on paper.

The consequences of disobedience in a communist country are far more brutal. You must do what they say, otherwise you are basically screwed. You are either killed or jailed. You have no vote, no say in what goes on and are basically oppressed, more so than a democracy or republic.

I think that, if somebody is disobedient when it comes to the greater good for humans as a whole, because they have some need that they wish to fulfill, or don't want to do something because they feel they shouldn't which would lead to bad things for people as a whole, then they deserve to be prosecuted, definitely not put to death, but punished by law.

[Sasquatch]

Is Communism really that bad? In a word: YES. Hell yes.

Since school is what most of the people on this forum know best, picture this: We're both in the same class. Well, let's say that Dodie16, Rowan, and myself are in the same class. (Hopefully neither of you mind my using you in this example.) Obviously, we are all different people, so we have different abilities. Dodie is very intelligent; not only that, she also works very hard. She wants to learn, wants to graduate as valedictorian, wants to get into a good college, and wants to make a good career to support her future family. Rowan and I are more interested in smoking, drinking, cutting class, and TP'ing the nerdy kids' houses. Every day in class, Dodie works her ass off, pays attention, and completes all of her classwork, while Rowan and I are in the back of the class making fart noises. Every day, Dodie goes home to do her homework and study, while Rowan and I play video games and throw rocks at stray animals. When it comes time to take a test, Rowan tries copying off of Dodie, while I simply resort to guessing through the answers because I don't know any of the material. And at the end of the semester, we all get D+'s. Not an A or B, but D+. Dodie definitely deserves an A+, and Rowan and I both deserve to fail. But we don't all get what we deserve -- we're all brought up to lower-than-average because our teacher runs a Communist class. Instead of giving all of us the scores we earn, she adds all of the scores together -- from each student according to their ability -- then divides them evenly among all students -- to each student according to their need. At this point, we ALL have bad grades, even though a small percentage of the class has more ability and more work ethic than the majority of the class.

Now imagine that in an economy. Instead of grades, people are working for money. Their government takes their money, decides how much of it that each citizen should get, and redistributes it.

Alright, continuing the story. Next semester. What do you think Dodie is going to do? Do you think that she's going to pay attention, work hard, and study? That would be one of her three options -- she could continue to pur forth more effort than anybody else, knowing that we will all receive the same grades. The second choice is simply transferring to a different school, one where she will be rewarded for her hard work with better grades. The third choice? Well, that one would be simple -- if she's not rewarded for working harder, she could just stop working harder. She could join Rowan and I in cutting class to smoke weed under the bleachers, since she knows that she'll make the same grades as we will anyway.

In a Communist country, once talented people realize that they will not be rewarded for their hard work or higher education, they either leave (referred to as "Brain Drain") or just stop working as hard, which means that the government must resort to forced labor to survive.

Either way, "work because your work supports you and your family" is much better than "work because you want to support those who don't, and if you don't, we'll hurt you".

[nickness89]

That's a bit extremist. I should have made myself clearer, I wasn't referring to PURE communism, I was referring to a more modern form of communism, where, yes, wealth is shared, but people's abilities and ability to perform are not criticised, but helped to be improved. Working for the betterment of everyone, and helping those who need help, rather than allowing them to bring everybody else down. Like I said, sacrificing an egotistical desperation to be recognised for your talents, seems rather small, if you're going to be selfless enough to give it up so that everybody lives the same.

Of course, for those who plain refuse to better themselves if they have a bad effect on the community, should be dealt with by law, and by the population as a whole. This is already in effect today, with people that have committed a crime being prosecuted, and jailed if need be. The only difference would be that in a communist society, the criminals would be people that are being totally non-beneficial to the needs of the society, and refuses to address their selfishness.

[Alpha]

I know this is in ID, but I have something very simple to say:

Capitalism: Freedom from responsibility (aside from your own)

Communism: No freedom; someone else is responsible.

Something else, that I adhere to: Freedom with responsibility.

I hope you appreciate just how arbitrary a distinction you have made between communism and capitalism, Nick, as if those are are only choices. Really, those aren't even real choices. True communism and pure capitalism have never existed, anywhere. No one has the freedom to do whatever they want all of the time. Assuming you're lawful, you can't smoke dope. You can't build a ten story building in a residential area.

Communism: individual freedom is completely curtailed.

Capitalism: individual freedom is paramount and absolute.

Something else: individual freedom is curtailed to some extent to allow for the rights of others.


And, I might add, there isn't a (Western, at least) country where that third option doesn't hold.

[Xatper]

I think that communism has a good moral idea, it just needs some minor improvements here and there. In a communist country the people there can't really glote and say that they are better than someone else. In that kind of rule everybody is equal. You work, you get your rations, you eat, you live another day. They just need to work on a few things and it will be better.

[nickness89]

Good point Alpha, I think that's why I wanted to discuss this, to see people's views on freedom. Like you said, Capitalism is freedom, Communism is somebody else taking responsibility for your freedom.

@Xatper - True. If the world was to be communist, then there would definitely need to be improvements. Alpha's third option, a mixture of communism and capitalism in some way, would probably be best, as we will have freedom to an extent, but the potentially troublesome people would be kept in check.

[OnOneRyder]

Oh yeah I forgot to mention, China's economy is growing faster than most countries, they are expected to overtake the US within the next decade or two, and they're a communist society ... it looks like it does better in real life than it does on paper.

China is ruled by a communist party, their economy however is not. China is one of the largest capitalist players on earth and an excellent market to exercise as close to real capitalism as possible where you are met with few responsibilities or obligations to get in the way of your profits, that's about as pure capitalist and as far from communism as one can get.

Communism, even on paper is a terrible idea IMO. The ability for an individual to better oneself through hard work is a concept I love, you're not bound by an moderating body which limits your ability to improve financially. The problem with capitalism is it's ability to infiltrate politics, the US is suffering hugely because of this right now.

Alpha hit the nail on the head by saying neither communism nor capitalism truly exist anywhere, merely ugly love-children of the two.

[Heartless Angel]

The idea of communism in its entirety disgusts me. Not simply because it's completely unfair to anybody with the ability or desire to make something of themselves, but because it removes any reason or room for self improvement.

First of all, there isn't enough of everything in the world for everybody to have it. This is why we have the rich and the poor. When something is so common that everybody who wants it has as much of it as they want, it has absolutely no value. Air is about the only example of this I can think of, because there really isn't enough of anything else in this world. There is one primary reason that there is no price tag on air. Because there's enough for everyone to take what they need. Because there is enough of it that nobody ever has to struggle to acquire it, and is never in any danger of not being able to obtain it (well, besides risk of drowning underwater and shit, but I'm referring to normal circumstances), nobody even thinks about it. Nobody hogs more air than they need, or tiries to show off how much air they have, because nobody else cares, they have as much of their own as they'll ever need. If there were enough of anything else in this world, it would be the same way.

you make a good point that people will strive to achieve better, but I think that's a minor sacrifice in favour of the greater good of humanity,

The greater good of humanity? What is the greater good of humanity?

I think that, if somebody is disobedient when it comes to the greater good for humans as a whole, because they have some need that they wish to fulfill, or don't want to do something because they feel they shouldn't which would lead to bad things for people as a whole, then they deserve to be prosecuted, definitely not put to death, but punished by law.

Do what we tell you and we allow you to exist, do anything else and you will be punished? I'm pretty damn sure it isn't that.

The only difference would be that in a communist society, the criminals would be people that are being totally non-beneficial to the needs of the society, and refuses to address their selfishness.

You will provide us with whatever we require, you will exist solely for our bennefit, or you will be punished? No, I'm thinking that's not it either.

You work, you get your rations, you eat, you live another day.

Also pretty sure this ain't it, though this is starting to sound like something I heard of once before...

You will do exactly as we command, your reward is the right to exist, you will be good at whatever we need you to be good at, or you are useless to us. You do everything we want, however we want, we'll throw you some scraps so you can survive to serve us again tomorrow. You exist solely for our bennefit... Wait a second, I think I remember now. They called this slavery.

Funny, this actually sounds alot like what George Carlin said about Capitalism. Though it took alot less distortion and exaggeration to identify this in communism.

You know the only example of 'pure' communism I can think of would be The Borg in Star Trek. No individuality, they exist only as a commune, there is no "I", only "we". An individual is worthless, insignificant, expendable, because it in itself is not of any real value to the whole. This is the beauiful, utopian society communists wish to create? We are Borg. You will be assimialted. You will service us. Resistance is futile.

These pathetic creatures do not live at all. They merely exist. They do not grow like human beings do. They spread, like a virus does. They destroy anything they come in contact with and replicate themselves, it is all they do, because they have no desire to strive for anything more than existing, and continuing thei existence of that commune by replacing insigificant pieces of it as needed.

Well hey, at least none of them are poor or homeless, or greedy or egocentric right? Care to join the Borg? Think I'll pass, but that's just me.

The greater good of humanity is for humanity as a whole to strive to better itself. Communism doesn't support this, it prevents it. It doesn't promote any kind of growth, it brings growth to a complete standstill so there's no chance of anyone unwilling or unable to grow being left behind. This communist world isn't some Utopia, this is Hell. I would sooner swallow one end of a length of barbed wire, hold on to the other, wait to shit out the end I swalled, grab it, and floss myself to death than live in that world where I am nothing more than an insignificant part of a machine that doesn't DO anything.

[nickness89]

@Heartless Angel - Ok, you're against communism obviously. When you say communism prevents any kind of growth, can you expand on what kind of growth you mean? You also said that there isn't enough of everything in the world for everyone, when it is plain that there is enough food on this earth to sustain every single human being, and clean water is just a case of distilling or filtering it to a healthy standard. That's all one really needs, is food and water. FYI, the greater good of humanity, is ensuring that EVERYBODY can eat and live a decent life, and giving up the egotistical need to be better than others by showcasing the talents you excel at, is a tiny sacrifice, but there will always be those that selfishly lust to achieve, when really, it is this trait that causes a separation in different classes.

[Heartless Angel]

When you say communism prevents any kind of growth, can you expand on what kind of growth you mean?

Certainly. It prevents anybody from bennefitting from being good at anything, from working any harder than is required, or trying anything new. These things are all difficult, if there is nothing to gain from them, nobody will do it. Never again will anybody go above and beyond the call of duty, because there is no reason to do it. Almost nobody will ever have any new original thoughts, because there is no reason to think. The few that do will not share them, because there is no reason to share them. The people in society who have new ideas, discover and invent new things, and push society into the future are the ones making big money. You take away their incetive to do any of these things, these things stop happening, time passes our species by and we cease to grow as a whole. Technological growth, intellectual growth, personal growth, all cease to happen in a world where everyone is equal. That which can not grow, can only fall into decay.

You also said that there isn't enough of everything in the world for everyone, when it is plain that there is enough food on this earth to sustain every single human being, and clean water is just a case of distilling or filtering it to a healthy standard. That's all one really needs, is food and water.

If of course somebody is willing to purify it, and prepare it. And ship it to where it is needed. There is NOT enough food and water laying around prepared and purified for everyone to take whatever they want, eat three big, delicious meals a day and be happy. World just does't work like that, sorry. What supporters of communism fail to realize, is exactly what the average IS. Everyone equa doens't mean everyone has Bill Gate's fortune. It doesn't mean everyone's in the 250k+ bracket. It doesn't mean everyone's in the upper middle class, or the lower middle class. It means every single person on this earth makes an ammount so pathetic that it is barely enough to survive. An ammount lower than the lowest classes in this country make. Nobody goes to their nice warm bed with a full stomach, everybody goes to bed hungry, but with just enough to ensure we'll wake up to be hungry tomorrow. This is not living, this is surviving.

FYI, the greater good of humanity, is ensuring that EVERYBODY can eat and live a decent life.

The greater good of humanity is not slowing to stop so all of us can drift from day to day, always surviving but never once living. Never growing, never bettering ourselves, never acomplishing anything more than what it takes to survive to do nothing tomorrow. This is how most insects live. Do you envy their style and quality of life? Can't say I do. This isn't a 'decent life', this isn't even a decent existence. It's sad, and pathetic. No person should ever strive fr mediocrity.

and giving up the egotistical need to be better than others by showcasing the talents you excel at, is a tiny sacrifice, but there will always be those that selfishly lust to achieve, when really, it is this trait that causes a separation in different classes.

People by their very nature are selfish creatures. We strive to satisfy only our own desires and needs. Take a look Maslow's heirarchy of need's some time. I promise you, you won't see anything about the commune or society as a whole on it, because people by their nature have no inherent interest in the whole.

You call that a TINY sacrifice? You ask us to sacrifice everything we are for NOTHING. And I mean absolutely nothing. You act like striving to better ones self, and make use of one's gifts is some terrible crime. It isn't, it's one of the very things that makes us human. Seriously though, Maslow's hierarcy of Needs.



This is human desire in a nutshell. Our first most fundamental needs are food and water, but this is NOT all we need to live. That's all we need to SURVIVE, but not even close to enough to live. THIS is what we truly need. At the bottom are the needs with priority. Once they are satisfied, we NEED what is on the next level. In a society that exists only to feed itself, nobody EVER feels content. They simply seek what is on the next level. The evil ego and desire to be good at life? Go figure, it's not a terrible crime, check the second level form the top, it's a basic psychological NEED. And check out the top there, those are the qualities of people who drive society. The people who have new ideas, do new things, and make humanity as a species grow. If you strip away people's ability and desire to satisfy their 'ego', their desire to be good at something and recognized for being good at it, you make it impossible for anybody to satisfy that ultimate human need to improve. THIS is what I mean when I say this world you're talking about stops growth.

[The furthest light]

communism is flawed, but it has good intentions of making everyone equal, but I suppose its as they say "the way to hell is paved with good intentions".

[Sasquatch]

Like I said, sacrificing an egotistical desperation to be recognised for your talents, seems rather small, if you're going to be selfless enough to give it up so that everybody lives the same.

I don't know where you're getting this idea that the only reason that people want to make more money is so that they can brag that they have more money than others. It's not an issue of ego, it's not an issue of gloating, it's an issue of "I don't want to be poor".

Of course, for those who plain refuse to better themselves if they have a bad effect on the community, should be dealt with by law, and by the population as a whole. This is already in effect today, with people that have committed a crime being prosecuted, and jailed if need be. The only difference would be that in a communist society, the criminals would be people that are being totally non-beneficial to the needs of the society, and refuses to address their selfishness.

"Totally non-beneficial to the needs of society", people that refuse to give up their posessions and talents and put them to use for "the good of society" ... no, nothing bad at all can, or ever has, come from that line of thought, has it? It's not like nearly every group of minorities has been abused because of this line of thought, is it?

Blacks in America throughout all to much of her history, Jews in 1930s Germany, Christians in USSR and Communist China, non-Muslims in most of the Middle East ... people of specific races, people with certain genetic differences, people of certain ethnicities, people of certain religious or political beliefs ... Who has the authority to decide who is useful to society and who isn't?

Why not just let people be responsible for their own good, so that whether they are financially successful or not, they have earned their own way? Do you really think anybody could make an entire society filled with nothing but people with everybody else's best interests in mind?

When you say communism prevents any kind of growth, can you expand on what kind of growth you mean?

The issue is, why should somebody really apply themselves if they won't be rewarded for it? Why should Dodie study and do her homework when she's going to make the same grades (or salary) as Rowan and I anyway?

It's every kind of growth. Technological, economic, even physical growth of infrastructure and construction itself. There's no reason for it. Everybody who can invent or build something will leave and go where their talents and abilities will be recognized -- and they often do, hence the "brain drain", and hence forced labor to keep them inside Communist countries. What's left is the "best" people in their fields being "average" on a larger scale.

You also said that there isn't enough of everything in the world for everyone, when it is plain that there is enough food on this earth to sustain every single human being, and clean water is just a case of distilling or filtering it to a healthy standard. That's all one really needs, is food and water.

So we're all equally poor, and we're all happy? Do you think you would be happy with having nothing, as long as everybody else has nothing, too?

[OnOneRyder]

You also said that there isn't enough of everything in the world for everyone, when it is plain that there is enough food on this earth to sustain every single human being, and clean water is just a case of distilling or filtering it to a healthy standard. .

Water for drinking yes, water and arable land for the purpose of growing food absolutely not. Nor is the infrastructure of knowledge available to everyone to make the best use of what is currently available. I should go to bed half fed so someone else is half fed as well?

I'm sorry, but I agree with Heartless and Sasquatch. I'd rather live and die than keep on surviving so we can all share a life of disparity. Maybe we should all take on additional jobs and send the money to someone less fortunate because they don't have a similar opportunity to work hmmm?

[nickness89]

Wow guys, I didn't say I agree with Communism, I said SOME ASPECTS of it are much more advantageous, in my opinion.

As for ''everybody would live in scarcity rather than having rich and poor'' ... since when does Communism mean everybody lives poor? If it was a well thought-out plan for society, where certain aspects of Communism were compromised on so that they would be beneficial rather than constricting, it could turn out that everybody could actually live a half decent life, you never know. It is pure speculation on all our parts, so let's not pretend to know exactly what would happen, it's totally guess-work, as it has never been done for the benefit of everybody rather than the benefit of a few.

[Sasquatch]

I'm sorry, but I agree with Heartless and Sasquatch.

Huh. That's kind of a rare occasion, isn't it?

As for ''everybody would live in scarcity rather than having rich and poor'' ... since when does Communism mean everybody lives poor?

Since the Soviet Union, and China, and East Europe, and the Congo, and North Korea, and Afghanistan, and Ethiopia, and Somalia, and Cambodia, and ... Well, since different countries started trying Communism out, and it always resulted in equality in poorness. Add in intentional famines designed to starve certain sections of the population, and nobody wins.

And because it results in equality in poorness (and because people don't want to be poor, even if their neighbor is poor too), Communist regimes must resort to forced labor and oppression to keep their economy and industry afloat. Which is where you get forced labor camps, executions, the slaughter of people deemed "unworthy" to benefit from society ... hell, where do you think Nazy Germany for the ideas -- and sometimes, the actual construction plans -- for their camps in the 1930s and 1940s? Communist Russia and USSR.

If it was a well thought-out plan for society, where certain aspects of Communism were compromised on so that they would be beneficial rather than constricting, it could turn out that everybody could actually live a half decent life, you never know.

There are no aspects of Communism that are "beneficial rather than constricting" -- every "benefit" of Communism comes from a constriction somewhere else. If a poor person receives ten dollars, not only was that ten dollars forcibly taken from somebody else, MORE was taken. You've got to add in the bureaucracy, any sort of transportation, and whoever in charge that decides they're tired of being as poor and everybody else and uses their authority to change that (as has happened rampantly in every Communist country, ever).

And then there's the idea of every capable Communist citizen: "Why should I work harder to make another ten dollars this week if I won't get it anyway? Why should I invent something new if it will just be taken from me? Why should I educate myself if it will only mean more work, with no better reward?"

It is pure speculation on all our parts, so let's not pretend to know exactly what would happen, it's totally guess-work, as it has never been done for the benefit of everybody rather than the benefit of a few.

That alone should tell you something. It's been tried many times before and has never worked -- so why sould somebody think, "well, it hasn't been REALLY tried"?

[SOLDIER #819]

Communism in theory is great, but it just won't work. That's not because the idea itself is flawed, but because as a system it lacks the necessary "components" (e.g. nature, attitudes) to bring it to fruition. Humanity as a collective force is just incompatible with it (and generally sucks).

Limited number of resources aside, we could prioritize providing the bare necessities for everyone, but we don't. This isn't on the level of each of us starving ourselves so that the world as a whole can eek out a meager living. This is just about us not wanting to lower our standard of living and stalling our own dreams.

We use buzz words like "opportunity" and the items at the top of pyramid pic Sasquatch posted to celebrate what capitalism is capable of giving, but we know with our limited number of resources that they can't apply to everyone. Someone by necessity has to draw the short straw when they're born or take the fall during their lifetime so that others can succeed. And so long as an emaciated child isn't standing right next to us begging for scraps so they won't starve to death, humanity as a whole is content with stepping over others to succeed and reap the rewards of their efforts (and keep it for their interests only).

As individuals, I think we're usually alright people. None of us would laugh at someone genuinely down on their luck. We WOULD share what we have if we knew for certain that the results of our efforts were being put to good use. But if's don't cut it, and in giving freely to some unknown party we assume we're opening ourselves up to exploitation. Our best bet is just to keep it for ourselves. It's just logical. Despite that, when we look at the big picture we look pretty ugly as a whole.

Communism, or systems that share many of its traits anyway, fail in practice because they aren't compatible with our society's values (or perhaps human nature?). It's not flawed or evil, humanity is just an unsympathetic ****.

Rant rant rant.

[The furthest light]

good point soldier, humanity in general can't grasp the equality of everyone, you only have to look through history to see that:countless empire's, Hitler, slavery etc.
humanity's strive for that little extra cancels out communism's effect, whilst humans are about there will be no equality. unless we pull our selves together.

[smurphy]

Communism as a principle alone isnt hugely flawed,it is a much better alternative to what capitalism manifests itself as now, but the problem is, more so than capitalism, is its political structure allows the scum among us to easily rise to the top, whereas diplomatic multi-party systems are able to filter out a lot of the scum in the system, but not all of it. So the conniving heartless b*stards are able to gain the incredible amounts of power afforded to politicians and officials in a communist system. Just look at any leader in a communist country and their respective politburos. Never mind the death count of citizens under the likes of Stalin and Mao.

Not that capitalism can be construed as good or fair. In its current incarnation, those with money wield the power as opposed to the masses wielding that power. And it it incredibly hard to find honest politicians who truly do look out for their electorate and have no ulterior motives. Unlike the communist system though, its not only politicians and officials which are the problem. Most of us are beholden to the whims of corporations and the markets, which is far from an ideal situation as this global recession is showing.

So with communism or capitalism, you are either made accountable to a few lunatics who hold all the power or the markets and corporations who hold most of it. Somewhere between the two would be a better alternative where the politicians, big businesses, markets and individuals would be held accountable.

*Maybe scum isnt the right word. Parasites maybe?

[Heartless Angel]

It has nothing to do with being unable to grasp the concept of equality, it has to do with not having the resources to make that equality GOOD. If equality meant everybody on earth got a trillion dollars a year for doing a job they loved, I'd be all over it, unfortunately that's not how it works. If everybody gets an equal share, that means everyone gets the average. Unfortunately, the average in this world is extremely low.

Capitalism is also wonderful in theory, the only issues are when corruption starts infiltrating the government, and when there just arent enough opportunities for everyone to make good use of the system and get ahead in life. If that didn't happen, a capitlist society would be awesome, unfortunately that's now how it works in reality. When people can take advantage of a syetm, they will. And the world just doesn't have enough for everyone to be happy.

Communism is the same way, IF there were enough resources to give everybody a high standard of living without taking away their ability or desire to grow, a communist society would be awesome. Unfortunately that's not how it works in reality. When people don't have a reason to grow, they won't. And the world just doesn't have enough for everyone to be happy.

Neither is ever going to be perfect or work as planned, because they are incompatible with human beings. And the reality of the world is, there just isn't enough of everything for 7 billion people to be happy. The only real options are somewhere in the middle, where invariably there are still going to be some people who thrive and do well, and some who do not. Unfortunately, in either system, the majority are going to be the latter, simply because there is just not enough in this world.

[OnOneRyder]

Communism is the same way, IF there were enough resources to give everybody a high standard of living without taking away their ability or desire to grow, a communist society would be awesome. Unfortunately that's not how it works in reality. When people don't have a reason to grow, they won't. And the world just doesn't have enough for everyone to be happy.

This.

Even if everyone on earth were given a middle-class western lifestyle with the infrastructure and resources to support it I would still not want to adopt such a system. A lot of what we hold dear and rely on has been made possible by individuals with the desire to succeed and profit the most from their efforts. Remove the reward, and you no longer have that type of innovation taking place. Spreading the wealth, no matter how peaceful it is will cause humanity to grind to a halt.

[SOLDIER #819]

A lot of what we hold dear and rely on has been made possible by individuals with the desire to succeed and profit the most from their efforts. Remove the reward, and you no longer have that type of innovation taking place. Spreading the wealth, no matter how peaceful it is will cause humanity to grind to a halt.

There is a huge difference between change driven by incentives and the "upward" progression of humanity.

What proves to be lucrative in a capitalistic society has little to do with progress. Even if something new is produced due to the want of profit, it doesn't have to (and more often than not will not) have any far-reaching implications. And it's just as possible that businesses will invest in actions that stifle progress to protect their own interests. Sure, there are those VERY select few with the foresight or daring to dream big while making it big, but the vast majority of people will take a less risky approach to ensure their success. So while some great things have come about due to incentive-driven motivations, that is not the primary goal of capitalistic ideologies and it could just as well hinder progress.

Moreover, there isn't anything saying that these discoveries would have not been made if not for capitalism. Chances are life for the average person wouldn't be as rich and colorful as it is now and we wouldn't be getting the nth iteration of Call of Duty or whatever... but then again, maybe we would. Who really knows. You can't measure or simulate things like that.

Not that communism (or anything leaning heavily to that end) would even work. With mindsets like ours, there's probably no chance in hell. :\

[Sinister]

*the following post was written under the influence of powerful, although insightful, agents of impairment*

Honestly, I don't see how, unless you have a completely Enterprising nation RUN by(and by run by, let me clarify, that I mean governed BY the private sector) the corporations, you can make a free enterprising nation work for any amount of time. Even then it is plagued.

Because, per example, corporations have their OWN interests at heart. They also have the money. "Money and rule go together." So unless they ARE directly pulling the strings, the government and it's driving force will, occasionally if at always, be at odds. And even if they were given stewardship over the navigating powers of a nation, I cannot see how this would be beneficial to the individual.

Conversely, a large nation equally distributing success and control counters all individual aspects of freedom and achievement.

The key to this Gordian knot is that no one entity has every entity's interest at heart. So the key would either be to roll everything in a giant ball(socialism/communism). Or to have two or more states constantly at civilized war with each other.

Personally, I value confusion in government. Because, so long as money is being made and it is never STAGNANT, then you have an ideal arrangement. The double-edge is that every system, no matter how chaotic, will eventually settle. Settling means that a minority has money and the majority does not.

To be perfectly honest, what I am saying is... Communism or Socialism will NEVER work because of the individual. But a Corporate Government might work for a little while longer, but will fail because of the individual.

Neither system, because they are composed of extremes, will work. It's the snow globe syndrome and it must be, from time to time, shaken.

-Sin

[nickness89]

Ok, so obviously neither ideologies work unless they are rid of corruption (which I doubt would happen, corrupt individuals will always be in a race for power). We can tell that communism plainly hasn't worked due to corrupt, power-hungry individuals (Mao, Stalin to name but two) and Capitalism hasn't worked due to corrupt, power-hungry individuals such as banking families and a very, very unconstitutional Government (just look at the 6 year old boy jailed for burping in class, two 12 year olds arrested and handcuffed for kissing, the little boy charged with sexual assault for playing doctors and nurses with a friend, clear infringements of the Constitution) not to mention the debt-based economy, where there is not enough physical paper money or coinage to pay even USA alone's debts.

Anyone have a theory on what could work, but which would also disallow corrupt individuals from manipulating the system?

[Diyala]

Is Communism really that bad? In a word: YES. Hell yes.

Since school is what most of the people on this forum know best, picture this: We're both in the same class. Well, let's say that Dodie16, Rowan, and myself are in the same class. (Hopefully neither of you mind my using you in this example.) Obviously, we are all different people, so we have different abilities. Dodie is very intelligent; not only that, she also works very hard. She wants to learn, wants to graduate as valedictorian, wants to get into a good college, and wants to make a good career to support her future family. Rowan and I are more interested in smoking, drinking, cutting class, and TP'ing the nerdy kids' houses. Every day in class, Dodie works her ass off, pays attention, and completes all of her classwork, while Rowan and I are in the back of the class making fart noises. Every day, Dodie goes home to do her homework and study, while Rowan and I play video games and throw rocks at stray animals. When it comes time to take a test, Rowan tries copying off of Dodie, while I simply resort to guessing through the answers because I don't know any of the material. And at the end of the semester, we all get D+'s. Not an A or B, but D+. Dodie definitely deserves an A+, and Rowan and I both deserve to fail. But we don't all get what we deserve -- we're all brought up to lower-than-average because our teacher runs a Communist class. Instead of giving all of us the scores we earn, she adds all of the scores together -- from each student according to their ability -- then divides them evenly among all students -- to each student according to their need. At this point, we ALL have bad grades, even though a small percentage of the class has more ability and more work ethic than the majority of the class.

.

Indeed , that was an admirable example and I totally agree with you

I agree that Communism could lead to people thinking that they shouldn't bother doing anything if they are going to get a fair share of everything regardless, but that's when laws should be brought in, for instance, that if you don't do your own share of work, then you don't get that fair share of everything. The Commune would have to have laws and regulations set out, by the entire population, through communication and compromise (rather than war), and those that start any trouble that would be in the best interests of themselves only, be prosecuted.

George Carlin on Capitalism:

"But there’s a reason. There’s a reason. There’s a reason for this, there’s a reason education SUCKS, and it’s the same reason it will never, ever, EVER be fixed. It’s never going to get any better, don’t look for it, be happy with what you’ve got. Because the owners, the owners of this country don't want that. I'm talking about the real owners now, the BIG owners! The Wealthy… the REAL owners! The big wealthy business interests that control things and make all the important decisions. Forget the politicians. They are irrelevant. The politicians are put there to give you the idea that you have freedom of choice. You don't. You have no choice! You have OWNERS! They OWN YOU. They own everything. They own all the important land. They own and control the corporations. They’ve long since bought, and paid for the Senate, the Congress, the state houses, the city halls, they got the judges in their back pockets and they own all the big media companies, so they control just about all of the news and information you get to hear. They got you by the balls.

.

This can only be described as the selfishness of capitalism!
It seems that you all talked as if there were only two economic systems in the world so it was like a dead end for the discussion

In today's world , there are three economic systems: capitalism , communism and the Islamic economic system.

As for the first two , they are opposites , capitalism's first priority is the individual while communism's first priority is the society as a whole or maybe it is just a cover up for the government's objectives under the calls of justice and equality, the third- on the contrary-that is being totally ignored among the discussion- tries to take into consideration both good sides of communism and capitalism and replace their disadvantages with more realistic system . We all have seen how the two systems failed to stand on their own and guarantee that they meet everyone's needs ; communism prevents the individual from his slightest right which is possession whereas capitalism is moving in a chaos freedom in which the rich -using whatever means- get richer and the poor get tragically poorer . No one can benefit from capitalism if it's pouring in one side's interest so the other side will surly use illegal ways to survive which is crime and that is the absolute consequence of the lack of justice !

We can see communism and capitalism through the Islamic economic system. The aspect that belongs to capitalism is included in one's right to have private property so that it could meet the possessive instincts of human beings and encourage their personal ambition to grow but not in the shape of extreme freedom where monopoly and usury are allowed

As for communism , the part of Islam that achieves all the good goals that communists call for is presented in a more progressive system of charity that is called Zaka (the third pillar of Islam that based on giving a specified percentage on certain properties to certain classes of needy people) and through which the great gap between the rich and the poor is prudently shut!
So we at least concluded that neither capitalism nor communism is capable of leading people –both the individual and society – to justice and satisfaction !

[Joxsjua]

France's new elected communist leader has promised to raise taxes 85% is what "World News Now" has reported. Why don't you go over there and check it out first hand.

[Order]

Nickness,
Your support for communism is doing what communism itself tends to do.
Dissolve.

Anyone remember what the US' plan to defeat the USSR in the cold war was?
Let it crumble.
And crumble it did.

That's what communism does. It slowly degenerates into something less communist, or it collapses in on itself.
China is becoming more and more capitalist. As workers gain better quality of life, they want higher pay and as they get higher pay, their prices rise to match that of other similarly skilled labor.
China wants to over take the united states by becomeing the financial center of the world. In order to do that, they will be forced to become capitalist.
And don't get me wrong,
China has plenty way to go before that happens. To compare the average yearly earnings of chinese people to the cost of living, they are still mostly in poverty. I believe I stated somewhere else around here that the poverty level of China is 10% and that line is drawn at the equivallent of an individual earning less than 87USD a year.

Just to make sure you read that right, that's *87* dollars.
Less than I spend on my cellphone for a month of service.
Less than a set of tires for my car.
Less than I spend on food for a week.

There is a massive void between the poor and the rich in China (read: no middle class), which is a symptom of a third world country. Not coincedentally, it is a symptom every communist country shares.

And just because I love to talk trash about the country so much, North Korea only exists because of it's work camps. Work camp being the militaristic, forced into, eat once a week kind, and not the shovel-ready-jobs kind.


So,
Does communism look good on paper?
As a philosophy? No.
As a way to promote "fairness"? No.
As a way for a country to be economically strong? Only as long as there are suckers who you don't pay enough to leave and who don't have the will to resist.

Communism looks good the way Socialism looks good.
If you think it's about being granted someone else's benefits from their hard work, you'll love it.

There is no free lunch. Somebody pays. Rack up enough debt and you'll pay somehow.

Edit:
Oh, I just saw the "Islamic Financial blah, blah, blah" up there.
You tax the people and use some of that tax to aid the needy?
I've never heard of something so noble!

The world view of Islam is summed up by Darfur.
I would have loved to go head to head with your Jahaweed-funding, genocide-promoting, village-burning, heilo-strafing lunatics.
True selfishness is claiming that skin color excludes people from your religion.

There are more than two types of government, you're right.
But there are more than three.

Obviously, because this forum is full of people from the US, there is going to be a discussion of communism vs. capitalism.
It doesn't mean that we are so ignorant as to not be aware that there are other philosophies in action.

I believe that anyone who assumes that other's are not aware of foriegn governments and beliefs is, themself, an ignorant ass.


To get back on topic,
Down with communism. McDonalds on every street corner!

[Diyala]

Ignorant ass ! is that how you used to intellectually discuss things? In fact, I noticed that whenever Islam is mentioned, people get angry out of nothing, and I only find rudeness and extreme prejudice! do you think this is the way the other should express himself and is it the freedom you always claim?
Indeed , despite all the crimes that have been committed by America against Arab Muslims –though we have the full right to hate every single American- I can never be that clumsy to generalize and I know personally some good , open minded and just Americans that are against their government's injustice

But look at yourself and how objective you are ! Your status of liberty will surely be proud of you !

Obviously, because this forum is full of people from the US, there is going to be a discussion of communism vs. capitalism.
It doesn't mean that we are so ignorant as to not be aware that there are other philosophies in action.

Did anyone say you are not aware , or called you ignorant ? unless you think so
As for the word ignorance I'm surprised that you ask me while English is your mother tongue, but if you check the word ignore in Oxford dictionary you will find it means " failed to consider something significant " and that's what I meant when I used the word which is something you also failed to get and mixed it with ignorant that is something totally different from ignore! So you called yourself ignorant not me .

Oh, I just saw the "Islamic Financial blah, blah, blah" up there.
You tax the people and use some of that tax to aid the needy?
I've never heard of something so noble!

Well , I prefer you do hear of that
Why don't we be more intellectual in discussing how you call for pure evenness , you want a system where you have wealth and privileges while there are some starving in the streets ! is that how you claim Zaka as being another form of taxes in your eyes!, I'm sorry but your point is so weak and doesn't make any sense and for your information , you must have checked the amount of money that is being yearly spent on Zkah before calling them taxes, besides there are charity fields that are optional not a must !
selfishness is thinking only of yourself !

The bla bla bla that you gently described was just needed as someone else's point of view that WASN'T previously mentioned ,and the topic is truly in need for new concepts as the two opposing systems have stopped the discussion to a dead end .

The world view of Islam is summed up by Darfur.
I would have loved to go head to head with your Jahaweed-funding, genocide-promoting, village-burning, heilo-strafing lunatics.
True selfishness is claiming that skin color excludes people from your religion.

Excuse me !
Who brought politics in here out of the blue ?
From what I have seen, you didn't discuss anything against which you're claiming and randomly jumbled things together not knowing what to choose to start with or how to start with, which resulted in groundless accusation I couldn't get .
You haven't talked about the Islamic economic system when the whole topic is aimed to have each one's point of view hoping we would solve or fill in the gaps of both communism and capitalism .

Darfur ! I wonder where did you get all this courage to mention these subjects , that is pretty much like what they say " he who lives in a glass house shouldn't throw stones "!

Do you want me to dig a bit into history to tell you how pleasantly your capitalism treated the Black and how many wars were started under the selfish needs and plans of capitalists ?
The Black that were driven to work like animals for your majesty, war in Vietnam , the European Colonization against the Arab/Islamic world ,the nuclear bombing in Hiroshima and Nagasaki ,war on Iraq and Afghanistan , and so forth.
Obviously very gloomy shameful historical background
In fact, it's you who must be ashamed of defending such a system that used to turn its leaders into blood and oil suckers on the expense of other systems specially when you know nothing of them ,falsely judge them and blindly overrate yours !

It's really disgusting when human's greedy nature overcome their humanity and morals because then I suppose there would be no difference between them and beasts!

We are not naive to not know that all the fuss that the world is making out of Darfur is for nothing but the extensive concern of OIL, tell me if your majesty would care about the third world if it weren't for the natural resources and oil you suck from them ? when did America get the leadership of the world to safety ha??that never was an aspect of their history as I know , only starting wars and provoking sectarianism combat between people is what they mastered.
Aside from that ,did your country manage to maintain safety and peace in its own land before moving out to think of Darfur ?
Perhaps lots of people know that Texas – the largest state in U.S after Alaska- is as big as the great district of Darfur but the thing that most people don't know is the rate of crime in that state during 2000- 2004 has approximately reached more than 600,000 cases according to the statistics of U.S department of justice !
So don't speak as if someone appointed you to guard the world when you couldn't guard your homeland !

I'm sorry if the idea you got about Islam is only pictured in what is happening in Darfur , that is too absurd I suppose , I advise you to read more about that

Obviously the false accusation of having genocide in Darfur by the government is found to be mere a lie just like all the other lies we used to hear in the world under which people can cover their dirty purposes ! the whole affair can be described as a tribal war that turned –with foreign support- to more political objectives.
And before being so merciful about your own Interests in Darfur ,can we be more rational in moving toward your bright background to discuss the most bloody and inhuman genocide that is committed against people during 2003 ? it was in Iraq at the first month of your soldiers' arrival in March .About 3977 of the civilian populations were killed within only one month under your lame lie "massive destruction weapon"!

Why don't you claim against such a murder if you have such high sense of justice? Do you think you have any right to accuse others of committing genocide while your country commits the cruelest ones on every land its soldiers step their feet on !