Dreams

[Zidane77]

Not really worthy of a thread but i couldn't see any discussion of this, what is your opinion of this theory?
Personally i think it's crap but i've heard that some people think this makes sense :/

Squall's Dead - a theory of what really happens in Final Fantasy VIII

[GypsyElder]

Interesting, there are more FF VIII theories

Actually I never heard of this one before, and I think it's actually really cool.

And thank you for those last screenshots, nightmares for me. You should probably also change the title name, there's already like three topics about "dreams" it's misleading, I almost ignored this thread completely.

[Che]

I'm a believer.

I read through it and he or she presents a great arguement. I agree that after the first disc, everything seems kind of surreal. I never really went back to re-explore this game after my first playthrough, but I might replay it now with this concept in mind.

I dunno how I'm going to be able to play through the faceless shots, though. Wow.

[Zidane77]

Doesn't make sense to me though :/

[Che]

Doesn't make sense to me though :/

Which part?

edit: ugh that site is a nightmare! The background looks like two freakish eyes staring into your soul. Don't make me go back there.

[Zidane77]

Which part?

edit: ugh that site is a nightmare! The background looks like two freakish eyes staring into your soul. Don't make me go back there.

That everything after disc 1 was a dream..

[Che]

That everything after disc 1 was a dream..

It makes perfect sense that it doesn't make sense. That's the part of the game where I was asking myself what was going on. Why are we in this prison with endless hallways. Things just started to get weird, like a dream. Our own dreams rarely make sense, as they are just are mind trying to deal with our thoughts as we are not conscious.

And what did happen to Squall, there? It makes the dialogue and inner-monologue of the story go from "uh, weird, okay dude" to "oooh, that's why you're such a weirdo, Squall. You're dead and dreaming".

The site explains it very well.

[Dodie16]

CAUTION!! May cause nightmares...or serious lols.:

^ Was that seriously a shot in the ending sequence of the game???? I guess the images flew by too fast that I wasn't paying much attention. Thank God too, because that is pretty disturbing to look at...

Interesting read in the link though. I like reading up on those crazy theories that the uberfans of the game come up with.

[Che]

Why, Dodie. Why must you post it?

[Andromeda]

Yes, surprisingly Squall's missing face is actually in the FMV, but it is only up for like ten frames or something. It is very easy to miss and I know I never saw it until I watched the videos of the FMV again on youtube.

Shadow and I were actually talking about this yesterday. As I told him, the site makes a strong argument for its case, but the biggest problem is that it all relies on Squaresoft having purposely told a ridiculously elaborate story with a huge plot twist that 99.9% of the viewing/playing population would never see on their own. It says that Squaresoft intention made one of the most subtle plot twists in their games ever. And anyone that's play any number of Squaresoft games knows they can tell a good start and usually will start of subtle, but once you get to the end of the game all of the important points to understanding the story/game/characters will all have been explained enough that their intention got across. If is something as important as changing the entire meaning of what you've just played and you want people to get that, then you make sure they understand that.

Also when you think of the implication of what they are saying it becomes even more difficult to accept. If it was all just a dream then the game and reality ends on disc one with Edea killing Squall. Right there the game ends you don't know what else happens. You can easily assume their failure and capture there means all of the SeeD are killed for assassination attempt. No one stops Edea and evil wins and good loses. I'm all for that, but name a RPG that has ever done that (Disgaea doesn't count). If Squaresoft actually wanted to make a game where good loses and evil wins they would not have been so subtle about it. They just would have done it out in the open.

It's a nice theory, but in the end I think it is just someone that personally believes the game is non-sensical and trying to apply sense to it so that they can feel like FFVIII is some amazingly conceive story of subtly when they don't want to accept that they actually think it is a really badly written game.

Do I think the game is bad, no, but I suspect they believe it is. However, it is FF so there must be a reason for it and it can't be bad. So they have to find a rational to make a good clever game in their eyes.

[Zidane77]

Yes, surprisingly Squall's missing face is actually in the FMV, but it is only up for like ten frames or something. It is very easy to miss and I know I never saw it until I watched the videos of the FMV again on youtube.

Shadow and I were actually talking about this yesterday. As I told him, the site makes a strong argument for its case, but the biggest problem is that it all relies on Squaresoft having purposely told a ridiculously elaborate story with a huge plot twist that 99.9% of the viewing/playing population would never see on their own. It says that Squaresoft intention made one of the most subtle plot twists in their games ever. And anyone that's play any number of Squaresoft games knows they can tell a good start and usually will start of subtle, but once you get to the end of the game all of the important points to understanding the story/game/characters will all have been explained enough that their intention got across. If is something as important as changing the entire meaning of what you've just played and you want people to get that, then you make sure they understand that.

Also when you think of the implication of what they are saying it becomes even more difficult to accept. If it was all just a dream then the game and reality ends on disc one with Edea killing Squall. Right there the game ends you don't know what else happens. You can easily assume their failure and capture there means all of the SeeD are killed for assassination attempt. No one stops Edea and evil wins and good loses. I'm all for that, but name a RPG that has ever done that (Disgaea doesn't count). If Squaresoft actually wanted to make a game where good loses and evil wins they would not have been so subtle about it. They just would have done it out in the open.

It's a nice theory, but in the end I think it is just someone that personally believes the game is non-sensical and trying to apply sense to it so that they can feel like FFVIII is some amazingly conceive story of subtly when they don't want to accept that they actually think it is a really badly written game.

Do I think the game is bad, no, but I suspect they believe it is. However, it is FF so there must be a reason for it and it can't be bad. So they have to find a rational to make a good clever game in their eyes.

I agree, you said all there is to say.

[ZantetsukeN]

Yes, surprisingly Squall's missing face is actually in the FMV, but it is only up for like ten frames or something. It is very easy to miss and I know I never saw it until I watched the videos of the FMV again on youtube.

Shadow and I were actually talking about this yesterday. As I told him, the site makes a strong argument for its case, but the biggest problem is that it all relies on Squaresoft having purposely told a ridiculously elaborate story with a huge plot twist that 99.9% of the viewing/playing population would never see on their own. It says that Squaresoft intention made one of the most subtle plot twists in their games ever. And anyone that's play any number of Squaresoft games knows they can tell a good start and usually will start of subtle, but once you get to the end of the game all of the important points to understanding the story/game/characters will all have been explained enough that their intention got across. If is something as important as changing the entire meaning of what you've just played and you want people to get that, then you make sure they understand that.

Also when you think of the implication of what they are saying it becomes even more difficult to accept. If it was all just a dream then the game and reality ends on disc one with Edea killing Squall. Right there the game ends you don't know what else happens. You can easily assume their failure and capture there means all of the SeeD are killed for assassination attempt. No one stops Edea and evil wins and good loses. I'm all for that, but name a RPG that has ever done that (Disgaea doesn't count). If Squaresoft actually wanted to make a game where good loses and evil wins they would not have been so subtle about it. They just would have done it out in the open.

It's a nice theory, but in the end I think it is just someone that personally believes the game is non-sensical and trying to apply sense to it so that they can feel like FFVIII is some amazingly conceive story of subtly when they don't want to accept that they actually think it is a really badly written game.

Do I think the game is bad, no, but I suspect they believe it is. However, it is FF so there must be a reason for it and it can't be bad. So they have to find a rational to make a good clever game in their eyes.

I agree with everything you've said also. The person must have really disliked the game, and had a SERIOUS amount of time on their hands. It all sounded too farfetched to me.

[fierytempest]

I read this the other day, and I don't really think the theory itself is that far-fetched.

However, I don't buy into it. Because it IS far-fetched. But in the sense, I don't think Square would let suck a big plot twist not be brought to the player's attention at some point in the game. It's a point that would have been seriously wasted.

Still, I think it's kind of an ingenious thought, and they certainly do provide a lot of evidence to support their theory.

[Che]

Yes, surprisingly Squall's missing face is actually in the FMV, but it is only up for like ten frames or something. It is very easy to miss and I know I never saw it until I watched the videos of the FMV again on youtube.

Shadow and I were actually talking about this yesterday. As I told him, the site makes a strong argument for its case, but the biggest problem is that it all relies on Squaresoft having purposely told a ridiculously elaborate story with a huge plot twist that 99.9% of the viewing/playing population would never see on their own. It says that Squaresoft intention made one of the most subtle plot twists in their games ever. And anyone that's play any number of Squaresoft games knows they can tell a good start and usually will start of subtle, but once you get to the end of the game all of the important points to understanding the story/game/characters will all have been explained enough that their intention got across. If is something as important as changing the entire meaning of what you've just played and you want people to get that, then you make sure they understand that.

Also when you think of the implication of what they are saying it becomes even more difficult to accept. If it was all just a dream then the game and reality ends on disc one with Edea killing Squall. Right there the game ends you don't know what else happens. You can easily assume their failure and capture there means all of the SeeD are killed for assassination attempt. No one stops Edea and evil wins and good loses. I'm all for that, but name a RPG that has ever done that (Disgaea doesn't count). If Squaresoft actually wanted to make a game where good loses and evil wins they would not have been so subtle about it. They just would have done it out in the open.

It's a nice theory, but in the end I think it is just someone that personally believes the game is non-sensical and trying to apply sense to it so that they can feel like FFVIII is some amazingly conceive story of subtly when they don't want to accept that they actually think it is a really badly written game.

Do I think the game is bad, no, but I suspect they believe it is. However, it is FF so there must be a reason for it and it can't be bad. So they have to find a rational to make a good clever game in their eyes.

Maybe the didn't really want to do it openly. Why would they have to do it out in the open like that? It's a Final Fantasy game, so we may very well want good to win. This is why they do it subtly. So you can play through the game thinking that that's what happens.

[Alpha]

Like Che, this theory makes a lot more sense than what I got out of it as a ten-year-old, and then again as a fourteen-year-old, and then a sixteen-year-old. If I had the time, I'd play this game again with this theory in mind.

I have but one question, however. When do they first mention the whole 'GFs erase your memory' idea? Is it in Disc 1/before Squall's death? If not, then my ideas of the last scenes of this game are out the window, and Squall really does die. I mean, it would make sense for Squall to fabricate this issue to mask the fact that he is no longer in reality. It would also make sense, if the developers were hell-bent on disguising this plot interpretation.

Also:



This is the best screenshot I have ever seen. What a creepy image! No spoiler tags for this shiz.

[Dodie16]

Posted by Alpha
When do they first mention the whole 'GFs erase your memory' idea?

Pretty sure it was on the first disk, either during one of the tutorials or when you access the computerized Control Panel in Squall's desk in the classroom.

from a Final Fantasy VIII Tutorial
"A GF is an independent energy force. By combining it with para-magic, it is possible to control tremendous energy. Memory loss is a possible side effect, but this has not been proven as of yet."

Then when you go to Trabia Garden and the group has thier flashback, that's when proof of using a GF's power does cause the person to lose thier memories.

[Zargabaath]

I think Cid also mentions how the other schools don't use GFs because they don't like the practice.


While this theory is quite interesting I don't think there is much to it. I'm mostly in agreement with Andromeda - to not reveal the big secret at the end or close to it is quite odd and would leave a lot of questions. Though since it [Disc 2 onward being a dream] was brought up there wouldn't have been questions needing to be answered in the game.

The ice shard does pierce Squall on the right side of his body and it may have missed anything vital. Still there is magic and he could have been cured for a reason unexplained - though since he was interrogated one could assume that was why. Even though Squall does not have much knowledge, someone in that universe thought otherwise.

I think there is more evidence, though not a lot still, of the Rinoa is Ultimecia theory. Though I don't believe the Dream Theory or the Rinoa/Ultimecia theory they are interesting.

Edit: I have never seen the Black Hole Squall face before, but that is one freaky thing. Damn.

[Che]

If this theory is indeed true, the next time someone asks why they call it "Final Fantasy", I will refer to Squall's death and dream.

[Rocky]

An interesting theory, it seems legit enough to be credible. It reminds me of the theory of Ash Ketchum in the pokemon series too.

[Alice]

Ah, the Ash Ketchum theory...I completely forgot about that one until you mentioned it, Rocky. It does seem similar to this one.

Personally, I find it to be a pretty interesting theory, but not one that I actually believe. It just feels way too looked into. But a fascinating theory nonetheless, I found it a good read.

[SquallMLeonhart]

An interesting theory, it seems legit enough to be credible. It reminds me of the theory of Ash Ketchum in the pokemon series too.

Ash's last name is Ketchum? Boy is that lame.

[Tallulah]

I've been thinking about this for a while now, whilst bored at work. They got me cleaning the back room for a couple hours on Saturday, as I was spare staff, so I had a lot of time to think about this point.

Personally, bizarre as the storyline was, I don't think Squall did die in the story. Supernatural things happened before Squall's accident at the end of Disc 1, such as the sudden appearanve of the Sorceress, and the way she walks out through a closed door, starts addressing the crowd the way we later find out (or I assume) to be in the style of Ultimecia, thus making the 'possession' explaination cohesive. So, as strange and 'dream-like' it may be, I think it is the story of a living character, or a bunch of living characters (albeit a sketchy story full of plot holes) rather than the final dream of a dying one.

However, the beauty of this fact is that the player can make up their own minds. The plot holes which have not been resolved, or theories which haven't been confirmed or denied by Square Enix, are always debated and discussed by fans (as they are now), and fanfictions attempt to bridge the gaps in the storyline.

[smurphy]

Although it is an interesting theory i dont think it has enough weight behind it to be true. But f*cking hell, that image is now permanently burned onto my retinas. Never saw that before.

Speaking of which in regards to the thread title i actually had a dream( actually a nightmare) where there were people exactly like that image. I had that particular one 13 years ago and that image brought it all back. Thanks.

[Heartless Angel]

As much as i loved playing 8, it never really made sense to me until the first time I heard this theory. An really, it's not all that farfetched. Major plot events in dreams is not anything out of the ordinary for Square. Nor is a dead protagonist. And the whole images fading out as you die thing.

in 7, Cloud's final battle with Seph was in his mind. And much like this thoery suggests, in his mind, things went his way (wow, lookey here, I suddenly learned Omnislash even though I've never even BEEN to the Golden Saucer outside of story requirements! And better yet, random full limit guage! Must be my lucky day!)

In Crisis core, as Zack's life flashes through his eyes, he begins to forget faces. And Aeris's blurs away at the very end. Sound familiar?

in 10, Not only was the main character a dream, but we also had a recurring theme of continuing after death with all the unsent.

This argument is one of the reasons I loved 8 so much. They were intentionally very vague with just about everything, leaving it entirely up to the player to decide what the story meant to them. Another thing that only reinforces my belief in this theory. Griever. A lion of Squall's imagination just happens to be the Ultimate GF nobody's ever heard of? Some just look at this is an unimportant coincidence, but really, if they DIDN'T want you to pay special attention to this, why would they give you option to name it yourself, rather than just moving on as if it was an unimportant detail?

Another reason I believe this, you actually have to TRY to answer questions to fill in plotholes if you don't believe this. Like the injury. You actually have to sit there and try to rationalize the abscence of an injury. What could possibly allow him to have not a scratch on him after that? Well, you can try and come up with reasons why he was healed, or, you can take this theory, which completely explains that, along with 90% of the other plot twists that never seemed to make sense without coming up with one ridiculous theory after the other. Sqaure are not amateurs with storyline construction. One or two minor plot holes is understandable. But to have an entire story just LOADED with unrelated plotholes, no way. Not from Square. However when you consider this theory, there aren't many plotholes left. Something I'd expect from Square.