Who is the strongest FF main villain!!

[Angel of Iniquity]

Whoah, I eat all but 2 FF main series, so I wouldn't comment so recklessly Rydia lover.

Theory, in what I mean, is facts with no written proof. I didn't give ultimecia a weakness, so I will, but there are still reasons why she would be more than an abnormally powerful mage...

If she never had time junction Ellone, she wouldn't be able to send her consciousness back. If she hadn't had that, she would not have had any time kompression and powers from past sorceresses. But she also still had the magical ability to even achieve time kompression and keep her sanity. I have even noted that I know more about ultimecia than sephiroth, being I never beat it so I'm intrigued about Sephy.

Lets take away everybodies advantages...

Garland- A normal soldier if he had never made a deal with CHaos... A weak antagonist in theory. Again, when I say Theory, I mean in thought, nothing to argue against it but no solid proof.

Palemecia- If he would not have achieved heavan and hell dominance... He would still be strong, having the ability to summon powerful twisters to destroy cities with ease. He even let himself die in order to take over hell, so in design, he is a very powerful mage

Cloud of Darkness- Can't really weaken her any more. She really... Idk, somebody help me with this, haven't played FF3 since 2004-5 I think.

Zemus- Hmm, I can't really say again being I havn't played it since 1999, but from what I remember, he is a strong mage comparable to that old guy, so I guess he is powerful by default.

Ex-death- Take away the void and he STILL is a very powerful warlock. I believe he is made from the ehh, something from the powerful monsters of the void. He does use powerful magic on your first encounter so I guess he is powerful by design, tho he wouldn't exist if the void didn't

Kefka- He would be comparable to Celes if he hadn't cheated into being a god. Being a magicite soldier. He would be powerful, but no where compared to people like Zemus or Palemecia

Sephiroth- Take away the lifestream and he still would be powerful. He has swordsmen mastery and great knowledge. From what I think, he would still need Materia but again, all of his stats are high, being level 35 or w/e when that long ass memory cutscene crap.
I meant his Jenova ties, but ya know lol

Ultimecia- *cries* Already said it... *twitches*

Kuja- Again, it talks about most of his abilities and powers in disc four so I can't really say, I need help with this one

Sin- What can I really take away? Yu Yevon? Well if I did that, Sin would just be a Hyper strong random whale bird with amazing gravity powers, being the most powerful, I mean one of the most powerful, none enhanced villians, persay. But then he would be more of a giant threat than a villian

Vayne- Well, take away the magicite and the Venat part and he is, probably a little higher than other judges, but take into effect that the hardest boss of the game is the 5 lv 100 judges...>.>

Orphan- I don't have to take anything away, he sucks and just wants to die, poor guy, must of had a bad bad life.

[Heartless Angel]

Eh, I'd imagine any of the other sorceresses would be able to survive in that spell too if they were already spreading their conciousness through time. I mean you'd have to fail pretty hard to not survive your own power. She's still be strogner than most, but nothing outrageously dangerous.

Zeromus is actually naturally very powerful. Golbez and old dude double meteored him and didn't even phase him. His disadvantage was the crystal, so taking away elements actually makes him MORE powerful, since he only lost in a PDS.

Don't think you really can take Exdeath's pwoer away without removing Exdeath all together, so he really isn't at a disadvantage in any scenario.

Kekfa was also naturally very powerful (post magicite anyways, but he wouldn't even be the villain if not for that) Probably on par with Ulti without time kompression.

Materia's just a standard weapon in VII, so no ned to remove that. Taking away Jenova and the lifestream, he's still outragously powerful. Probably on par with Kefka and Ulti. Just because he was versed in magic as well as unrivaled melee skill.

Kuja, now there's really ntohing you can take away here. Trance was his own power. Only thing you can really take away is necron, who failed anyways. Kuja I'd say is probbly on par with Zemus (without being weakened by light crystal)

Sin is already at his disadvantage with his lakc of will to destroy, so I'd say he's somewhere between Seph/Kefka/Ulti and Kuja/Zeromus

Vayne, meh.

Orphan, meh.

In natural state only, I'd probably say Kuja is the strongest, since he didn't need an external ower source to do what he did.

[Xanatos]

@o0Odin0o - I'm not sure how you tend to prove who's stronger, but one thing I'm sure of, you really don't know much about villains, do you? No offense, but if you're going to debate, at least learn a thing or two before posting complete nonsense. As far as my concern, you lost my credibility as soon as you underestimated Vayne.


@Heartless Angel - I'm curious, how strong Sephiroth really is. You know great deal about Sephiroth, probably more than I do, one thing bugs me though, and maybe you can help. On various sites, forums, even during debates, I keep hearing how strong Sephiroth is, things is, no one knows his exact potential. Thus some claim he's capable of performing an attack such as Super Nova, some go far as comparing him to Vegeta from DBZ (those who check Dorkly know what I mean), and from what I read in this thread even you claim that he could have destroyed the planet if he wanted to. If he's indeed capable of something like that, don't you think he could damage the planet on his own, without the aid of meteor. It certainly would save him a lot of time and pain in the ass. And that's what really bugs me, why summon a meteor, why lose...unless he didn't have such power, didn't have control over it, or just didn't give a damn, which raises another question, why he even tried? Your input will be much appreciated.

[Angel of Iniquity]

@o0Odin0o - I'm not sure how you tend to prove who's stronger, but one thing I'm sure of, you really don't know much about villains, do you? No offense, but if you're going to debate, at least learn a thing or two before posting complete nonsense. As far as my concern, you lost my credibility as soon as you underestimated Vayne.

First of, don't act like a little impertinent howl you slime.

Villains go by Intellect, then power. I know more about video games in general than you may ever know, Don't reply to this, and another thing, if I upset you, screw you.

Show me why Vayne is so powerful? I never said best, I said powerful.
Vayne shows little power comparative to others. Was he a planetary threat? Hardly, was he a existence threat, not at all. Vayne can not even compare to the intellect several other villains so he isn't in the top, at all, so you fail and I would appreciate if you would NOT act aggressively.

Anyways...

I do not mean to be rude or ignorant in any posts, I just reply to what I see.
What's an Ifs anyways lol

[Xanatos]

First of, don't act like a little impertinent howl you slime.

Villains go by Intellect, then power. I know more about video games in general than you may ever know, Don't reply to this, and another thing, if I upset you, screw you.

Show me why Vayne is so powerful? I never said best, I said powerful.
Vayne shows little power comparative to others. Was he a planetary threat? Hardly, was he a existence threat, not at all. Vayne can not even compare to the intellect several other villains so he isn't in the top, at all, so you fail and I would appreciate if you would NOT act aggressively.

Anyways...

I do not mean to be rude or ignorant in any posts, I just reply to what I see.
What's an Ifs anyways lol

I'm sure you do...

Now, it seems to me that you don't know diference betwen strenght and power, you don't have to be strong to be powerfull. Power comes in many forms, Vayne was head of Arcadian empire, he had an entire army under his command, on his comand many countries have fallen, now that's what I call power.

True, Vayne was far from strong, did that prevent him from achiving his goals, I don't think so. As for his intelect, do not forget that he managed to trick the immortal Ocurians, nation of Ivalice as well, he may be defeated, but unlike many villains he reached his goal. Other villains may had strenght, some had intelect, some both, though acording to you Vayne had none, and yet he succeeded despite those disadvantages, so much for not being in same leauge as other villains.

[Angel of Iniquity]

I'm sure you do...

Now, it seems to me that you don't know diference betwen strenght and power, you don't have to be strong to be powerfull. Power comes in many forms, Vayne was head of Arcadian empire, he had an entire army under his command, on his comand many countries have fallen, now that's what I call power.

True, Vayne was far from strong, did that prevent him from achiving his goals, I don't think so. As for his intelect, do not forget that he managed to trick the immortal Ocurians, nation of Ivalice as well, he may be defeated, but unlike many villains he reached his goal. Other villains may had strenght, some had intelect, some both, though acording to you Vayne had none, and yet he succeeded despite those disadvantages, so much for not being in same leauge as other villains.

I just posted he was smart, and I was looking for a discussion on the most POWERFUL villain, meaning powwweeeeerrrr. By your analysis, Kefka is in the same tier by ruling the world, and had a vast amount of power comparative to Vayne. What I meant is if they were to meet, who would come out as the decisive ruler.
I know it is impossible to choose a clear winner which is why I just stated the top 5 powerful, which could be stated as the existence busting threats, ones who had the ability to end or remove all existence. ANd, his goal wasn't as high as somebody like Sephy or Ulti, I mean really, Sephy wanted something like transferring the life-stream or so(sorry if I'm wrong) and ultimecia wanted to end existence to become a goddess. I'm pretty sure, ulti, for her goal, came closest to achieving a goal that high, and in reality, she did achieve it. It's PIS squall killed her.

Top 5.

Ulti
Ex
Kuja
Sephy- Sorry heartless lol
and can't say the last, maybe Kefka

Oh and, Vayne, place him against sin and Sins force alone would tear him to shreds.

[Xanatos]

I just posted he was smart, and I was looking for a discussion on the most POWERFUL villain, meaning powwweeeeerrrr. By your analysis, Kefka is in the same tier by ruling the world, and had a vast amount of power comparative to Vayne. What I meant is if they were to meet, who would come out as the decisive ruler.
I know it is impossible to choose a clear winner which is why I just stated the top 5 powerful, which could be stated as the existence busting threats, ones who had the ability to end or remove all existence. ANd, his goal wasn't as high as somebody like Sephy or Ulti, I mean really, Sephy wanted something like transferring the life-stream or so(sorry if I'm wrong) and ultimecia wanted to end existence to become a goddess. I'm pretty sure, ulti, for her goal, came closest to achieving a goal that high, and in reality, she did achieve it. It's PIS squall killed her.

Oh and, Vayne, place him against sin and Sins force alone would tear him to shreds.

You still don't know difference between power and strength, how cute. Still, no harm in reminding you again, I have time on my hands. Power doesn't equal strength, to demonstrate I'll use an example. A general doesn't have to be strong, but if he commands a powerful army he can do quite a damage, do you see where I'm going with this...

As for Vayne's goal, you're right, his goal was nothing like Ultis, he had a noble goal, though it may not seem that way at first. Those who played the game know that Vayne tended to free nation of Ivalice from clutches of immortal Ocurians, for nation of Ivalice to finally decide their own fate, his methods may be cruel, but necessary it seems. So you see, their goals can't be compared, Ultis victory lasted til her defeat, which wasn't the case with Vayne.

Sin is far from intelligent creature, he attacks randomly, and he proved to be vulnerable to Al Bhed technology, what do you think Vayne's fleet would do to him, Bahamut, Leviathan and such...

[Heartless Angel]

Political power's another thing entirely. In that area, I'd have to say Seymour was the most powerful, followed closely by Vayne, Kuja, and Kefka. Though one could reason The Emporer had alot because he was, well... the Emporer... nobody really liked him. People actually wanted to follow Symour and Vayne, and were unaware that Kefka and Kuja were manipulating things

Ultimecia techniclaly did not succeed. She got close, but she failed to create a world in which only she existed, which was her ultimate goal, and in the end, she didn't exist at all. So she got close, but then dove straight into fail. Sephiroth however, DID suceed. Not exactly in the way he'd planned, but he DID become one with the lifestream, and was the only one who never 'lost' in the end. One also must take into consideration what obstacles they had to overcome to reach their goals. Ultimecia had to use a machine to mind**** people while she sat safely in her own time. Not much of a challenge. Least it doesn't sound like one. Sephiroth was actively hunted down by Shinra, the most powerful company in the world, and your party of unbeatable hero archetypes. Holy, and the Planet itself fought against him. And in spite of all of of this, he still ended up merging with the lifestream and becoming immortal. Other villains had it much easier, and still were ultimately beaten. Not Seph.

Kuja was extremely succesful. He had several different plans through the game. Control Brahne, succeeded. Mass produce and sell Black Mages as weapons, suceeded. Kill Gardland and get out from under his rule, succeeded. Destroy planet that pissed him off, suceeded. Destroy crystal to doom humanity, suceeded. The only one who failed there was Necron. And in the end, he came to understand the meaning of life, and wanted to do something menaingful with it, suceeded. He saved Zidane. Not once did Kuja fail. And once again, he met with FAR more opposition than Ultimecia, and perservered anyways.

In terms of success, Ultimecia doesn't sit at the top by any means.

[Heartless Angel]

@o0Odin0o - I'm not sure how you tend to prove who's stronger, but one thing I'm sure of, you really don't know much about villains, do you? No offense, but if you're going to debate, at least learn a thing or two before posting complete nonsense. As far as my concern, you lost my credibility as soon as you underestimated Vayne.


@Heartless Angel - I'm curious, how strong Sephiroth really is. You know great deal about Sephiroth, probably more than I do, one thing bugs me though, and maybe you can help. On various sites, forums, even during debates, I keep hearing how strong Sephiroth is, things is, no one knows his exact potential. Thus some claim he's capable of performing an attack such as Super Nova, some go far as comparing him to Vegeta from DBZ (those who check Dorkly know what I mean), and from what I read in this thread even you claim that he could have destroyed the planet if he wanted to. If he's indeed capable of something like that, don't you think he could damage the planet on his own, without the aid of meteor. It certainly would save him a lot of time and pain in the ass. And that's what really bugs me, why summon a meteor, why lose...unless he didn't have such power, didn't have control over it, or just didn't give a damn, which raises another question, why he even tried? Your input will be much appreciated.

Unfortnately his potential is pretty much unknown. Though it seems very obvious it's more than what he showed in the last battles, because we know he never showed his max potential, we have no idea what exactly it is. I wouln't say he's on par with Vegeta, considering his father, weaker than Freiza could obliterate three planets with a wave of his hand... and since then Vegata's power level has increased by around 9 trillion.

Meteor was his means to destroying the planet, much as Ultima was Kuja's. Magic just has to come from an outside source in world of VII, but you've still got to have the power to use it. Ultima materia won't do you much good if you only have 20 MP, know what I mean? And it's damage is based on the user's magic ability. Sephiroth could have destroyed the Planet with Meteor, but that would've been coutner productive to his plans, so obviously he wouldn't put everything he had into the spell. Unlike Kuja, he didn't have the convieniently placed neighbor planet to go to after blowing up his lol. He should've won, with ease. Before he even transformed, in the northern crater, he had te entire party suspended in the air, talking about how they felt like they were being torn apart. Even if he couldn't tear them apart with that spell, he could've just made with the stabby stabby while they were imobilized. He also had a weapon/meatshield that apparenty never died. That or it was still usable after death... not sure actually. Either way, he never needed to put his real body in danger to acomplish anything. So, it was either bad planning, underestimating opposition (from the planet moreso than the party), or Square not having a better excuse to make him lose lol. But then, at times it really did seem like he just didn't give a shit. For example, not killing Cloud and Tifa and everyone else at the mako reactor in nibelheim. The guy wiped out 10000 wutai solders alone. One shinra infanty and a 14 year old girl with basic martial arts training wouldn't have lasted 3 seconds if he wanted them dead. Only thing I can see as a reason why that may have been (other than Seph not caring) would be that he was weakened from his fight with Zack. And when he killed Aerith. At that point in the game, Cloud and co. wouldn't have even given him a struggle, but instead of just wiping them all out, he left Jenova, who was beaten with little effort. But then it's also possible that he just didn't consider them a threat, he had a major superiority complex, which could've interfered with his ability to plan out everything. So I certainly can't prove it wasn't just bad planning that lead to his defeat, but as a 1st class Soldier, one can reasonably assume he was a decent tactician. So either his discovery blew his ego so out of proportion that he was blinded by it, or he just didn't give a damn. After VII, it definitely seems like he didn't give a damn. But at that point, he really had no reason to, his will was intact in the neverending lifestream, so he had absolutely nothing to lose there. There's plenty that even I don't know about him, but I suppose that's part of why I like him.

[T.G. Oskar]

Unfortnately his potential is pretty much unknown. Though it seems very obvious it's more than what he showed in the last battles, because we know he never showed his max potential, we have no idea what exactly it is.

That's the big question. Sephiroth's power potential (in terms of sheer destroying potential, not careful destructive potential) is a big ???, since it's stated that he's the most powerful thing in the Planet's existence, but his true power is usually never shown. I find that bugging me, mostly because it seems just adding to a character whom was apparently (and tell me if you agree with this or not) was meant to be placed differently. I'll explain with another excerpt from your post:

Either way, he never needed to put his real body in danger to acomplish anything. So, it was either bad planning, underestimating opposition (from the planet moreso than the party), or Square not having a better excuse to make him lose lol. But then, at times it really did seem like he just didn't give a shit. For example, not killing Cloud and Tifa and everyone else at the mako reactor in nibelheim. The guy wiped out 10000 wutai solders alone. One shinra infanty and a 14 year old girl with basic martial arts training wouldn't have lasted 3 seconds if he wanted them dead. Only thing I can see as a reason why that may have been (other than Seph not caring) would be that he was weakened from his fight with Zack. And when he killed Aerith. At that point in the game, Cloud and co. wouldn't have even given him a struggle, but instead of just wiping them all out, he left Jenova, who was beaten with little effort. But then it's also possible that he just didn't consider them a threat, he had a major superiority complex, which could've interfered with his ability to plan out everything. So I certainly can't prove it wasn't just bad planning that lead to his defeat, but as a 1st class Soldier, one can reasonably assume he was a decent tactician. So either his discovery blew his ego so out of proportion that he was blinded by it, or he just didn't give a damn. After VII, it definitely seems like he didn't give a damn. But at that point, he really had no reason to, his will was intact in the neverending lifestream, so he had absolutely nothing to lose there. There's plenty that even I don't know about him, but I suppose that's part of why I like him.

If I recall correctly (clear me if I'm wrong), Sephiroth was the tactician and leader of the offensive against Wutai, probably his last great battle while under Shin-Ra's orders. And he himself obliterated a lot of soldiers, quite probably some of the best out there (though not much can be said of a world whom, by the time FFVII appears, seems to have no armed forces, unlike FFVIII whom had defined armies on a war environment). So he seems to play both "ultra-powerful soldier" and "keen tactician", but his plans seem to incline towards "keen tactician"; his plan of becoming more powerful by fully integrating with the Lifestream couldn't be done by someone with average intellect (or lack of megalomania). Just using the idea of being a keen tactician, you could have had a superb villain. He reminds me a bit of Makoto Shishio rather than Vegeta: one of the greatest warriors in Japan (on Rurouni Kenshin's reality), whom could have won and effectively conquered Japan, but his own ego just crushed him. And both he and the greatest swordsman of Japan, Himura Kenshin, were fighting at their limit. However, Shishio had something that makes him interesting: he knew his limits, and he didn't underestimate Kenshin, up until the final battle in which his ego simply went out of control (like the flames he manipulated), and had he taken control of his emotions he could have ended Kenshin's life in a simple stroke. Heck, IIRC, Shishio never revealed his ougi, and Kenshin's ougi was revealed thanks to Soujiro.

On Sephiroth's case, though, it's the fact that he could do enough with skill, finesse and tactics, but he just has to be physically and magically strong. I personally have the thing that Sephy falls too close to Canon Sue territory, if only because he seems to have no weakness, and in terms of tropes that's a card that must be played very, very carefully (or else, had he a specific weakness that could be exploited, perhaps not everyone would be so polarized). Shishio had a weakness, but you knew he had the upper hand; it was almost a miracle that his ego went out of control, because you knew that Kenshin was, for a lack of a better word, fried. And he was well aware of his weakness, so he could have simply ended that as quick as possible. His hubris, and the fact of how that event shaped pretty much everyone's lives, was something that made him a superb villain. But the thing lies in that he didn't revive; once he was finished (by his own hubris), the story didn't end there.

In Sephy's case, the fact that his story simply refused to end left a bad mouth on the detractors (to which I include myself) because it seemed like coming out of nowhere, instead of a defined part of the story. It's closer to what happened with Palpatine (Episode 6 killed the darn Emperor, but Expanded Universe just couldn't leave him alone, even though Admiral Thrawn was a superb villain) instead of what happened with Sauron (whose end and eventual return was essentially the bind of the story). What left an even worse flavor on the mouth was that his chance at redemption was essentially botched; I saw Advent Children, pretty much on its entirety, including Sephy's battle, and he seemed more like a cameo than a real menace (and made me feel sorry for poor Kadaj, whose IMO got his antagonism taken away, but you may argue that the true villain was Sephy all along and as usual Kadaj was a tool and there would be a foundation for that line of thought in any case).

--

Having said that: has the thread devolved into a "best FF villain" or does "strength" really depend on more factors other than pure destructive power (or the potential to do so?). I think the term has some connotations that need to be measured: how exactly "strong" are we speaking about? Personal, innate power? Maximum power potential? Other sources of power? Utilization of said power (as in, how the individual used that power, whether it was a smart move or just flexing its "muscles")? Being the "strongest" doesn't necessarily mean being the favorite or the best (hence, why I mentioned Ultimecia as the "strongest" if only because she acquired great power and had a glimpse of knowing the means to use it), so please cut some slack and let the river return to its course, lest the thread gets closed because of potential flaming. That goes with you, Odin; both Xanatos and Heartless are posters with carefully developed ideas, with their faves (Kuja and Sephy, respectively) and a strong desire to support them, and very different ways of observing villains, so while they might seem smartalecks, they have their reasons.

[Heartless Angel]

Still not entirely sure what you mean by placed differently there. Could just be that I'm tired, I'll have to have you clarify before I can answer that lol.

He was the leader of his group of Soldiers, who did all of the heavy combat with the large numbers of Wutai forces. I'm not certain whether he was the leader due to tatcical knowledge, or just because he was the ranking officer (and the one that could wipe them out singlehandedly). But he does have the mind of a tactician, and generally seems to be in control of his emotions. Particularly pre-evil, not once did you ever see him lose his cool. Afterwards it's a bit harder to tell if it's his emotions getting the better of him, or just cold logic based on bad information (that Jenova was an ancient and his biological mother). Main reason I don't think it was ego, is just the fact that he never seems to lose his cool. If it was somebody like Kefka or Kuja who made it perfectly obvious when they were pissed off and freaking out, it'd be easier to tell if he lost to his own ego. But it always appears that he's in complete control. Really is difficult to tell with him.

Also, thanks alot, now I want to go watch Kenshin again lol.

They did get him far to close to Canon Sue, which is my one complaint with the story. They created the perfect villain, but failed to implement him in a way where he could still be beaten in a way that made sense. I would rather he had some small weakness that the party managed to exploit rather than just managing to beat the unbeatable for the sake of a cliche happy ending. AC disappointed me, as yet again Seph was beaten when he was clearly in control until Cloud pulled the Deus Ex Machina Omnislash out of his ass, once agan to achieve a happy ending. My complaint with him isn't that he's too perfect, but that he's too perfect to lose in the end anyways. There's got to be a reason for him losing, but it's not one that's easily noticed like it is with any other villain in the series. In this case, the hero winning in the end almost seems like a plot hole in itself, it just doesn't make sense given what we know. It makes my brain itch.
--

I actually tried to answer in terms of the multiple ways 'strongest' could be taken, not sure where, but that train of though must've derailed somewhere, since here I am preaching the faith of the Church of the One Winged Angel of Latter Day Summons again. Oh well...

[T.G. Oskar]

Still not entirely sure what you mean by placed differently there. Could just be that I'm tired, I'll have to have you clarify before I can answer that lol.

The best way I can explain it would be: instead of having Palpatine or Apocalypse or even Sauron (three individuals whom are both immensely powerful and impossibly smart), they showed him like, say, David Xanatos (not the most powerful individual in terms of physical power but both impossibly smart and immensely rich) or Adrian Veldt/Ozymandias (someone who wasn't the most powerful, given that the story shows Dr. Manhattan is far more powerful, but that toyed with the really powerful ones due to his impressive intellect). The type of villain that was presented was not someone who was originally powerful, but the type of villain who doesn't need immense power after all, and whose mind is far deadlier a weapon than any nuclear bomb in existence.

[Angel of Iniquity]

. That goes with you, Odin; both Xanatos and Heartless are posters with carefully developed ideas, with their faves (Kuja and Sephy, respectively) and a strong desire to support them, and very different ways of observing villains, so while they might seem smartalecks, they have their reasons.

I respect them because they know what they are talking about, and being fans tends to create favoritism so I don't care about that.
Have I not posted reasons why I believe Ultimecia is the most powerful and intellectual? I have, and like the others do, I attempt to reduce or undermine others abilities to attempt to show more of Ultimecias power. While I can be "harsh,," I only react to how others react towards me...

Anyways...

Okay, fine, I don't care because I have already proved that Ultimecia is the strongest in design, it just takes an IQ of 126 to find them all *laughs cockily*
Jk

About the categories, what categories should we make then?
Most intellectually cunning? Magically powerful, Intellectually superb, Physically powerful, Leadership, Charisma? Who ever came closest to their goal in retrospect to their overall goal. What are their weaknesses(EVERYBODY HAS ONE!), Why did they fail(They all did in a sense other than really Vayne)?

Okay, I guess I'm just going to help Ultimecia as much as I can while showing "respects" to other villains cause I know I highly favor her >.>

[Heartless Angel]

Not really mate. You've showed why Ultimecia would beat restricted opponents, and dismissed all facts leading to her defeat as PIS. Ellone's powers were enough to let Squall and co. exist in Ultimecia's world, so her power was clearly not absolute, even against other sorceresses.

Again, no you haven't. All of your arguments thus far for the msot part can be condensed to, 'if she won she would've won' or 'if everyone else were worse than her she'd be the best'. Which, I suppose in a sense 'proves' your conclusion, because to accept your premises at all we've already agreed with it. Unfortunately, we don't all agree with it to begin with, so these arguments are insufficient. I have an IQ of 147, so if that was attempt to declare yourself smarter than those of us who disagree, or that all who are smart will agree, you've failed. Though there was a jk at the end, so I'll assume that was meant to be completely non serious. Just makin sure you know that as well lol.

As for categories perhaps...

Control (politcal power)
Cunning/Tactical ability
Mind**** skillz
Brute Strength (also including magic, not just for the warriors)
Natural power (meaning everybody before thy did something to gain power from an external source, as I think just about all of them did)
Max potential
Overall success

All I got so far.

[Leon]

Kuja, now there's really ntohing you can take away here. Trance was his own power. Only thing you can really take away is necron, who failed anyways. Kuja I'd say is probbly on par with Zemus (without being weakened by light crystal

As much as I'd hate to say something against my favorite villain....I replayed FFIX recently, and paid close attention to his plans. Trance wasn't really his own power, because he absorbed the souls of Terra from the Invincible, which also had drawn Brahne's soul after she died. He even admitted once that he couldn't match Garland's powers, which is why he came up with that master plan of his in the first place. It all hatched in the Gulug mountain, where he concluded he just needed a powerful soul even if it wasn't his own.

I also want to say that, although he destroyed Terra, he didn't blow the entire planet up. When you confront him in the Crystal World, he said that Terra's assimilation with Gaia had already begun. Now how can a planet assimilate anything if it's blown up?

With that said, he's still powerful without Trance as he took that blast from Bahamut with the only injury being a cut on his head. To compare this, Bahamut is the same creature who took down an entire Alexandrian fleet with with a few shots of Mega Flare. But if you take everything but his own powers away, Kuja's still a formidable foe, but is weaker than Garland (FFIX one).

[Rydia Lover]

Whoah, I eat all but 2 FF main series, so I wouldn't comment so recklessly Rydia lover.

Theory, in what I mean, is facts with no written proof. I didn't give ultimecia a weakness, so I will, but there are still reasons why she would be more than an abnormally powerful mage...

If she never had time junction Ellone, she wouldn't be able to send her consciousness back. If she hadn't had that, she would not have had any time kompression and powers from past sorceresses. But she also still had the magical ability to even achieve time kompression and keep her sanity. I have even noted that I know more about ultimecia than sephiroth, being I never beat it so I'm intrigued about Sephy.

Lets take away everybodies advantages...

Garland- A normal soldier if he had never made a deal with CHaos... A weak antagonist in theory. Again, when I say Theory, I mean in thought, nothing to argue against it but no solid proof.

and kefka isnt really stupid, hes arrogant. big difference

Palemecia- If he would not have achieved heavan and hell dominance... He would still be strong, having the ability to summon powerful twisters to destroy cities with ease. He even let himself die in order to take over hell, so in design, he is a very powerful mage

Cloud of Darkness- Can't really weaken her any more. She really... Idk, somebody help me with this, haven't played FF3 since 2004-5 I think.

Zemus- Hmm, I can't really say again being I havn't played it since 1999, but from what I remember, he is a strong mage comparable to that old guy, so I guess he is powerful by default.

Ex-death- Take away the void and he STILL is a very powerful warlock. I believe he is made from the ehh, something from the powerful monsters of the void. He does use powerful magic on your first encounter so I guess he is powerful by design, tho he wouldn't exist if the void didn't

Kefka- He would be comparable to Celes if he hadn't cheated into being a god. Being a magicite soldier. He would be powerful, but no where compared to people like Zemus or Palemecia

Sephiroth- Take away the lifestream and he still would be powerful. He has swordsmen mastery and great knowledge. From what I think, he would still need Materia but again, all of his stats are high, being level 35 or w/e when that long ass memory cutscene crap.
I meant his Jenova ties, but ya know lol

Ultimecia- *cries* Already said it... *twitches*

Kuja- Again, it talks about most of his abilities and powers in disc four so I can't really say, I need help with this one

Sin- What can I really take away? Yu Yevon? Well if I did that, Sin would just be a Hyper strong random whale bird with amazing gravity powers, being the most powerful, I mean one of the most powerful, none enhanced villians, persay. But then he would be more of a giant threat than a villian

Vayne- Well, take away the magicite and the Venat part and he is, probably a little higher than other judges, but take into effect that the hardest boss of the game is the 5 lv 100 judges...>.>

Orphan- I don't have to take anything away, he sucks and just wants to die, poor guy, must of had a bad bad life.

not to be be mean, or discerning. but there are way too many IFs in this post.

i think it would be a more fair comparison, to test these guys against eachother in their prime.