Suicide

[Myst]

I personally believe suicide is bad. Not because a god says so, but because I think its just the chickens way out of life. I say a person should try their best to live in the world and face it head on no matter how bad, their are many people suffering in the world, if they all gave up and killed themselves then we would have quite the small population. I do not really care how precious life may be to others, but life should be lived all the way through until its ends because of something (old age, desease, etc.)

Live a life of pain because their are thousands of others who do so as well. Of course being selfish is an alternative.

[Sasquatch]

So you're saying that people who are clinically depressed shouldn't seek help, but rather, blow their brains onto the wall... Huh... I don't really agree with your argument. It sounds a bit too... stupid to actually have been thought out.

Yes, that does sound stupid. It's a good thing I didn't say that.

What I did say -- or, rather, what you said the opposite of and I pointed out your ignorance on -- was that it's not easy to seek professional help for people who are clinically depressed. If you knew anything about clinical depression, you might understand this.

Where do they live, Antarctica? There's always somebody who cares. If there's no family, then there's always friends and associates.

According to you, yes. According to them, no. They know their own situation better than you do.

Every single behavioral and cognitive psychologist.

I'm sure you have reports from every single behavioral and cognitive psychologist that back up your asinine claim, right? No? Oh, well, I guess we'll have to judge based on the people who are actually in that situation.

You really know nothing about suicide. If you really believe that a suicide in the family does literally nothing, then by all means, blow your own brains out, come back as a ghost, and watch your family fall apart.

Try reading what I said. What I actually said was that regardless of how somebody dies, many family members lay blame. If you ever knew anybody who's had a family member commit suicide, or anybody who's had a family member with any sort of tragic death, you know -- or should know -- that fingers are pointed regardless of truth. Eventually, they most often realize that nothing could be done to avoid it, or at the very least, they weren't responsible. This is called acceptance. You might learn about it if you ever get past freshman-level psych courses.

Or you could take the less retarded route, and study psychology.

Or you could take the less retarded route, and realize that your piddly little psych classes don't trump firsthand knowledge of suicide and depression.

In my first post. It's not my fault that you don't quote the right material.

Alright kid, then point it out to me. Or quit making false claims.

Well that would be a good argument to use as to how I know more about the psychology of suicide than people who haven't studied any psychology.

More than people who have never studied any psychology and have absolutely no knowledge of suicide, theoretically. More than people who have firsthand experience with depression or suicide, of course not. More than people who have more than two psychology classes and have firsthand knowledge and experience with depression and suicide, definitely not.

I don't know niether of you well enough to say what you have been through, but you can never really understand suicide unless either you have been in the situation yourselves, or you have known someone who has commited suicide.

No, you're wrong! You can't understand suicide unless you've had an entry-level college course![/sarcasm]

So yeah, suicide is selfish, because it does put family and friends through so much pain. BUT it is not without reason to the person who feels it would be best for them and their family and friends.

That's been my point -- agreed wholeheartedly.

[Clint]

it's not easy to seek professional help for people who are clinically depressed.

Yes, it is easy to seek help for people with major depressive disorders. It's called intervention. Or the person suffering from depression will be aware that they're clinically depressed, and will seek professional help to deal with it. That usually doesn't happen though, but interventions do work.

According to you, yes. According to them, no. They know their own situation better than you do.

No they don't, because people who are clinically depressed aren't thinking clearly. What the hell don't you understand about this?

I'm sure you have reports from every single behavioral and cognitive psychologist that back up your asinine claim, right? No? Oh, well, I guess we'll have to judge based on the people who are actually in that situation.

I don't have reports, but I could always just ask a psychologist about the matter. A psychologist, just for the record, is a better source than somebody going through depression, because unlike the person going through depression, psychologists actually study it, and they're thinking clearly.

Eventually, they most often realize that nothing could be done to avoid it, or at the very least, they weren't responsible. This is called acceptance.

That's the exact opposite of the case with suicide, because the death was preventable, and the signs of depression are usually brought to attention only after the suicide has taken place, which, believe it or not, causes guilt in many different varieties throughout the family.

Or you could take the less retarded route, and realize that your piddly little psych classes don't trump firsthand knowledge of suicide and depression.

You're so trivial. Don't be angry at me because I have background knowledge on psychology and you don't. Firsthand knowledge, huh? I've been depressed before, but that doesn't give me firsthand knowledge behind the psychology of depression. I can't believe you're even trying to argue that.

Alright kid, then point it out to me. Or quit making false claims.

It's the main body of my original post.

Most people, especially women, will say that they are thinking about killing themselves, but saying something and doing something are two different things. They only tell people that they're going to kill themselves because they want to get attention. That's why you see so many people cutting their wrists. Usually, cutting of the wrists isn't enough to kill, but it's as if saying, "Hey, I'm threatening my own life, pay attention to me." I mean, if somebody really wanted to kill themself, they wouldn't talk about it, they would just do it. It's just like those so-called "bullies" back in the day at school who said that they were going to kick your ass, but never did. Actions back up words, not the other way around.

In other words, exactly what you said when you responded to it. Good job.

More than people who have never studied any psychology and have absolutely no knowledge of suicide, theoretically. More than people who have firsthand experience with depression or suicide, of course not. More than people who have more than two psychology classes and have firsthand knowledge and experience with depression and suicide, definitely not.

People who are suicidal do have more knowledge on the matter of suicide if they know the psychology behind it. Otherwise, they don't know jack shit, just like you.

No, you're wrong! You can't understand suicide unless you've had an entry-level college course![/sarcasm]

You're so trivial, but just for the record, abnormal psychology isn't entry level.

That's been my point -- agreed wholeheartedly.

And your point is wrong, no matter how you put it. You've never taken into account the social effects of suicide. Sure, the suicidal person feels that his or her family and friends are better off without them, but that's only because their cognitive thoughts are those of somebody who is clinically depressed. I don't know if you know anything about clinical depression, but people who suffer from it always feel that people don't care about them, even though it's not the least bit true.

So, on all accounts, you are wrong.

[Sasquatch]

Yes, it is easy to seek help for people with major depressive disorders. It's called intervention. Or the person suffering from depression will be aware that they're clinically depressed, and will seek professional help to deal with it. That usually doesn't happen though, but interventions do work.

Maybe I should reword that so you can understand it.

For people who are clinically depressed, seeking professional help is not easy.

If it was easy for depressed people to get help, there would be very few cases of serious depression.

And intervention is a great idea. If somebody has a problem, the people that care about them get them the help they need. Unless their problem is that they don't see anybody who cares about them. C'mon, even you should be able to see the issue with that.

No they don't, because people who are clinically depressed aren't thinking clearly. What the hell don't you understand about this?

So you know the situation of every depressed person better than they do? You're trying to tell me that there is never any case in which a person really doesn't have anybody that cares about them?

I don't have reports, but I could always just ask a psychologist about the matter.

Your claim included every behavioral and cognitive psychologist. Are you admitting that it was a stupid thing to claim?

Of course somebody seeking help will be told by a psychologist or psychiatrist that they're cared for and needed. That doesn't make it true. They're not going to tell somebody, "well hey, you bring up some good points, maybe the world would be a better place without you in it."

A psychologist, just for the record, is a better source than somebody going through depression, because unlike the person going through depression, psychologists actually study it, and they're thinking clearly.

All depressed people are crazy? Wow, that's a new one.

As has been said -- by myself and others -- one cannot truly understand depression and suicide unless they have been through it or been close to another who has.

You can study something all you want, but until you're confronted with it, you're still ignorant.

That's the exact opposite of the case with suicide, because the death was preventable, and the signs of depression are usually brought to attention only after the suicide has taken place, which, believe it or not, causes guilt in many different varieties throughout the family.

Some are preventable. Just like car accidents, murders, some diseases, and most of the rest of the ways people die. In all cases, guilt is a coping mechanism. Like I said, you'll learn about the stages of grief and coping mechanisms when you get into real psychology courses.

You're so trivial. Don't be angry at me because I have background knowledge on psychology and you don't.

Hahahahahah, good one, kid. Three bullshit claims in one short sentence -- not only am I "angry", but you have "background knowledge on psychology" (as if two classes meant a damn thing), and I supposedly don't. You're on a roll. First, I'm not angry, I'm amused. Second, you've learned enough about psychology to think you can win an argument on an internet message board, but not enough to actually do so. And third, don't make assumptions about your opponents -- you have no idea how much or how little training and experience I've had in the field of psychology.

Firsthand knowledge, huh? I've been depressed before, but that doesn't give me firsthand knowledge behind the psychology of depression.

There's a difference in being depressed and having depression. Any psychology student should be able to tell you this.

You get dumped by your girlfriend (or boyfriend, hey, I'm not judging), you get depressed. That's a mood, not a condition.

You get back from Iraq, get into a relationship where you're mistreated and used, have your significant other attempt suicide, realize that you're no good unless you're in combat, have no family to turn to, have no friends in the area, have nothing to do, do poorly in school and work because of traumatic brain injuries sustained in said combat, deal with your TBI, PCS, PTSD, ED(a) and ED(b) on a daily basis, and know that you'll never be as useful as you once were because of said TBI and PCS ... that's a condition. Not a mood.

I can't believe you're even trying to argue that.

You can't believe I'm even trying to argue that firsthand knowledge and experience with a subject is important?

It's the main body of my original post.

That people that talk about suicide only want attention. Not that they're looking for another option. I accept your apology, kid.

People who are suicidal do have more knowledge on the matter of suicide if they know the psychology behind it. Otherwise, they don't know jack shit, just like you.

The funniest issue here is that you think you know something about the subject -- not just relative knowledge, but more than those who've been through it -- because you've had a couple lectures on it.

You're so trivial, but just for the record, abnormal psychology isn't entry level.

It is in the schools I've been associated with. What kind of community college did you take it at?

And your point is wrong, no matter how you put it. You've never taken into account the social effects of suicide. Sure, the suicidal person feels that his or her family and friends are better off without them, but that's only because their cognitive thoughts are those of somebody who is clinically depressed.

And why are they clinically depressed? In most cases, the depression is a result of the feeling that one's family/friends are better off without them -- not the other way around.

I don't know if you know anything about clinical depression, but people who suffer from it always feel that people don't care about them, even though it's not the least bit true.

If you knew anything about clinical depression, you wouldn't have said that, since it isn't true. If depressed people always felt that nobody cared about them, there would be no need for suicide notes with apologies in them.

[Clint]

If it was easy for depressed people to get help, there would be very few cases of serious depression.

Wrong. It's easy to seek professional help, but if intervention isn't involved, the depressed person needs to make the first step, which many people don't do, because they feel it's better for them to be left alone, which is the exact opposite of what should be done. Hence why interventions work better.

Unless their problem is that they don't see anybody who cares about them.

An intervention is established so that the person suffering from depression can see that they're cared about.

You're trying to tell me that there is never any case in which a person really doesn't have anybody that cares about them?

Yes, that is what I'm telling you. The majority of the time, there are plenty of people who care. Although, it's not impossible to say that there are times where nobody actually cares, but those cases are very rare, mostly seen in desolate parts of the world.

Your claim included every behavioral and cognitive psychologist. Are you admitting that it was a stupid thing to claim?

No, not at all. If you don't think that behavioral and cognitive psychologists don't study depression and other mood disorders, then be my guest and continue believing that.

Of course somebody seeking help will be told by a psychologist or psychiatrist that they're cared for and needed. That doesn't make it true.

Actually, it does, because it is true. A depressed person thinks negatively. If you're thinking negatively, it's pretty damn likely that you think nobody cares about you. I've been telling you this for the last three posts, and for some reason, you fail to realize that I'm right.

You can study something all you want, but until you're confronted with it, you're still ignorant.

You can be depressed or suicidal, but that doesn't mean that you understand what's going on inside of your mind. The only true way to understand it is to study it. And making such a false claim as "if you're confronted with it, you'll understand it more than somebody who has devoted time to actually learn about it," is both misinformed and idiotic.

Some are preventable.

All cases of suicide are preventable, as long as it's not an accidental suicide.

Like I said, you'll learn about the stages of grief and coping mechanisms when you get into real psychology courses.

One, you never said that, and two, I already know the stages of grief, as well as various coping mechanisms that go along with it.

you have no idea how much or how little training and experience I've had in the field of psychology.

I can tell by your false claims that you have no training.

There's a difference in being depressed and having depression. Any psychology student should be able to tell you this.

In order to have depression, you need to be depressed.

You get dumped by your girlfriend (or boyfriend, hey, I'm not judging), you get depressed. That's a mood, not a condition.

Yes, you're right, but if it lasts long enough, it'll become a condition.

You can't believe I'm even trying to argue that firsthand knowledge and experience with a subject is important?

It is important, yes, but the fact remains that people who are clinically depressed aren't thinking clearly. Just because somebody has a depressive disorder doesn't make them an expert on the matter. What makes somebody an expert on something is if they learn about it.

That people that talk about suicide only want attention. Not that they're looking for another option. I accept your apology, kid.

They want attention so that they can get another option. I accept your apology, heartthrob.

The funniest issue here is that you think you know something about the subject -- not just relative knowledge, but more than those who've been through it -- because you've had a couple lectures on it.

Well, if the people who have been through it took some classes on the subject, then you would be right. Unfortunately, experiencing something firsthand doesn't give background knowledge on a matter. For example, being shot doesn't give somebody background knowledge on bullets.

It is in the schools I've been associated with. What kind of community college did you take it at?

I'm not sure what kind of schools you've been associated with, but general psychology is the obvious choice for entry level. I'm also currently taking a clinical psychology class, which, along with abnormal psychology isn't entry level.

And why are they clinically depressed? In most cases, the depression is a result of the feeling that one's family/friends are better off without them -- not the other way around.

How can you possibly be more wrong in just one post? The reasons behind why somebody is clinically depressed varies. You're merely associating clinical depression with social factors, whereas, there are also biological and psychological factors that also play a role. And the social factors aren't caused by feeling that one's family is better off without them, because that is a cause of something more. For example, social isolation at a young age would cause feelings of worthlessness as an adult. The depression doesn't come from the feelings of worthlessness, it comes from the true problem, the memory of isolation.

If depressed people always felt that nobody cared about them, there would be no need for suicide notes with apologies in them.

They kill themselves because they think that nobody cares. The suicide notes are written with apologies because they want somebody to know what they were going through, no matter how selfish the act in itself is.

You, my friend, are a ridiculously petty double-talker with no knowledge on the subject that you're antagonizing about.

[Chez Daja]

Not everybody kills themsleves because they feel nobody cares. Has nobody else read Let Me Finish by Udo Grashoff? A lot of the suicide notes it contained were apologising, but there were a fair few stating housing bills that they couldn't deal with, suffering with manic depression and not being able to seek proper help, etc. I suggest the read.

Advertising my personal life here would be uber gay, so I'm not going to go into any problems or ordeals I may or may not have encountered, but depression runs down both sides of my family -- I'm talking about problems that are easily dealt with via counselling or medicine, and problems that included institutionalisation that weren't as easily dealt with.

You can't measure "how depressed" or "how suicidal" somebody is, so trying is futile -- it isn't physically possible. I believe that everybody can be helped, but also that some people just continue to relapse again and again due to the severity of their particular illness. I also believe that some people are dead set on killing themselves at some point in their lives and will at some point achieve that. There are also people who have a spur of the moment impulse to end it and that can go either way.

Whether I think suicide is selfish or not isn't really the issue, but I believe it is a persons' own choice to take their life. I may later change my mind, but for now, that's how I feel. I don't believe it to be particularly cowardly, either -- but explaining why I feel like that would take a while and I really don't have time to go into that specifically.

I agree with a lot that has been said on all fronts, but I would have to agree with Sasquatch on one thing in particular: until you feel what real depression is like, and until you try suicide, you really don't have any idea what it's really like. It may be possible to study, to observe mentally unwell people and grasp an understanding, but the true feeling is beyond what many of us have experienced.

What I will also say is that its not always possible for people to seek help. Some people lack the time, money and/or support to get help and stability. It's very difficult to seek help when you face the prospect of perhaps being outcasted or disowned by family for wanting to get help. Some people are not informed enough about depression, and therefore don't believe it to be a problem that warrants proper, solid help -- that's why a lot of people stay in the dark. Some people can't face the judgement or humiliation from their families to go out there and get help.

Anyway, there are a lot of valid points here, and maybe I'll come back to highlight them. For now, though, continue.

[Sasquatch]

Wrong. It's easy to seek professional help, but if intervention isn't involved, the depressed person needs to make the first step, which many people don't do, because they feel it's better for them to be left alone, which is the exact opposite of what should be done. Hence why interventions work better.

It's not easy for people who are clinically depressed to seek professional help. This is why many people with depression don't seek professional help, and why intervention is even an issue -- if it was easy, as you claim (ignorantly, having never been in the situtaion), there would be no need for others to seek help for them.

An intervention is established so that the person suffering from depression can see that they're cared about.

Unless everybody who gets help for depression gets it because of an intervention, your attempted point is moot. And the causes of depression -- the feelings of loneliness, the feelings that people don't care about them -- must have causes themselves, which make it much less likely that anybody with depression would have an intervention at all.

Yes, that is what I'm telling you. The majority of the time, there are plenty of people who care. Although, it's not impossible to say that there are times where nobody actually cares, but those cases are very rare, mostly seen in desolate parts of the world.

If you're using words like, "majority," "not impossible," "very rare," and, "mostly," you're not telling me that there is never such case. While you are simply unaware of such cases, you have admitted that they do exist.

No, not at all. If you don't think that behavioral and cognitive psychologists don't study depression and other mood disorders, then be my guest and continue believing that.

I doubt you even know what you're trying to argue against, here. The original point you keep batting around was that sometimes, yes, the world really is a better place without some people. Some people don't contribute a damn thing, only drain. On their family, on society, on taxpayers, you name it. And these people don't necessarily have to be clinically depressed to come to this realization -- often, it's this realization that leads to clinical depression.

Actually, it does, because it is true.

It does make it true, because it's true? Damn kid, you're quick. Any other stupendous arguments you want to whip out?

A depressed person thinks negatively. If you're thinking negatively, it's pretty damn likely that you think nobody cares about you.

You're still confusing cause and effect.

I've been telling you this for the last three posts, and for some reason, you fail to realize that I'm right.

Because you go against common knowledge of anybody who knows their ass from a hole in the ground. As you've seen ... correction. As you should see from the rest of the people in this thread that concede that firsthand knowledge and experience is worth much, much more than one or two little psych classes.

You can be depressed or suicidal, but that doesn't mean that you understand what's going on inside of your mind. The only true way to understand it is to study it.

First off, most people with mental conditions not only know they have the condition, they also study it themselves. Naturally, people want to know about what's wrong with them. So while the condition itself does not alone warrant knowledge of such condition (as nobody claimed it did), most who have the condition know quite a bit about it.

And making such a false claim as "if you're confronted with it, you'll understand it more than somebody who has devoted time to actually learn about it," is both misinformed and idiotic.

"Devoted time"? You think two semesters in lecture is "devoted time," kid? Damn, you're in for a hell of a ride when you get into real college classes.

All cases of suicide are preventable, as long as it's not an accidental suicide.

In that case, nearly all deaths are preventable.

One, you never said that, and two, I already know the stages of grief, as well as various coping mechanisms that go along with it.

One: "This is called acceptance. You might learn about it if you ever get past freshman-level psych courses." You fail.

Two: If you knew the stages of grief and coping mechanisms, you wouldn't be touting the bullshit claim that suicide always tears families apart.

I can tell by your false claims that you have no training.

Yet you have provided absolutely nothing, other than your own imbecilic opinions, that suggest my arguments are false. Seems to be a pattern with you, really -- you disagree with me, then claim your superiority without providing a scrap of anything resembling credible evidence.

In order to have depression, you need to be depressed.

Wrong again. People with depression are not always depressed.

Yes, you're right, but if it lasts long enough, it'll become a condition.

Moods don't become conditions, kid. If you're happy often, you don't become clinically happy. If you're mad often, you don't become clinically mad. Depression, the condition, and depression, the mood, are related in extremely subtle form.

I wouldn't have to explain that to you if you had passed even one entry-level psychology course ... wait ... now that I think on it, you never claimed that you passed. Now it makes sense.

It is important, yes, but the fact remains that people who are clinically depressed aren't thinking clearly. Just because somebody has a depressive disorder doesn't make them an expert on the matter. What makes somebody an expert on something is if they learn about it.

Of course not -- it just gives them a little more information than somebody who's never been in that situation. I never claimed that a bit of experience makes somebody an expert.

And while somebody who's been through depression or suicidal thoughts may not understand it as well as another with a degree in clinical or behavioral psychology, or psychiatry, they sure as hell understand it more than some kid on the internet that tries to claim his two undergrad psych classes as authority on the subject.

They want attention so that they can get another option. I accept your apology, heartthrob.

I really don't know why you keep calling me heartthrob, but hey, I guess that if you think I'm attractive, I can't argue with you on that. You're finally right about something.

But here in the real world, you didn't claim that they want attention so that they can get another option. You claimed that they want attention. It's alright, though, I understand that you've been caught in a lie and need to backtrack.

Well, if the people who have been through it took some classes on the subject, then you would be right.

The point was that you believe your few petty little classes to trump firsthand experience, which is simply preposterous.

Unfortunately, experiencing something firsthand doesn't give background knowledge on a matter. For example, being shot doesn't give somebody background knowledge on bullets.

It does give knowledge. You can study bullets all you want -- or take a couple simple courses on them and claim authority -- but you will never understand them the way a shooting victim does. On the same token, you can study alcohol as much as you want, but you will still never understand it the way a drunk does. Or the average college student. While they may not have more knowledge on the subject, they have a different kind of knowledge, and an understanding that far surpasses the most basic studies.

Come back when you've had a few more classes, or a degree, and you can try to use your "education" to argue from authority at that point.

I'm not sure what kind of schools you've been associated with, but general psychology is the obvious choice for entry level. I'm also currently taking a clinical psychology class, which, along with abnormal psychology isn't entry level.

Clinical psychology? Not bad for a nineteen-year-old. That's even a second-year course! Congrats.

How can you possibly be more wrong in just one post?

Well, I could copy and paste your posts.

They kill themselves because they think that nobody cares. The suicide notes are written with apologies because they want somebody to know what they were going through, no matter how selfish the act in itself is.

If they thought nobody cared, why would they think anybody cared about what they were going through? Why would they need to apologize if they thought nobody cared?

You, my friend, are a ridiculously petty double-talker with no knowledge on the subject that you're antagonizing about.

Oh, shucks. Some kid on the internet insulted me. I'm so sad now. This will become depression, because clinical depression is apparently the result of a bad mood. That will end in suicide. That will make my family and friends guilty, to the extent that they will all commit suicide as well. This will create a ripple effect, and soon everybody in the world will have committed suicide, all because some petty little child insulted me on the internet.

[Clint]

It's not easy for people who are clinically depressed to seek professional help. This is why many people with depression don't seek professional help, and why intervention is even an issue -- if it was easy, as you claim, there would be no need for others to seek help for them.

A lot of people with depression do seek professional help, which is why psychologists and psychiatrists still have jobs. Just because there are those who would rather commit suicide than deal with their depression, doesn't mean that literally nobody seeks help. And making such a false claim is, well, ricockulous.

And the causes of depression -- the feelings of loneliness, the feelings that people don't care about them -- must have causes themselves, which make it much less likely that anybody with depression would have an intervention at all.

It's really not up to the client if or if not his or her family and friends hold an intervention or not. The intervention is to attempt to get the client to seek professional help so that the underlying cause of the depression can be dealt with, because until that happens, the depression isn't going anywhere.

If you're using words like, "majority," "not impossible," "very rare," and, "mostly," you're not telling me that there is never such case. While you are simply unaware of such cases, you have admitted that they do exist.

I never told you in the first place that such cases didn't exist. There are two things that I don't like having put into my mouth, and one of them is words.

Some people don't contribute a damn thing, only drain. On their family, on society, on taxpayers, you name it. And these people don't necessarily have to be clinically depressed to come to this realization -- often, it's this realization that leads to clinical depression.

No, the underlying cause of which those thoughts extend from leads to clinical depression. The "realization" for worthlessness is a symptom of that underlying cause.

Because you go against common knowledge of anybody who knows their ass from a hole in the ground. As you've seen ... correction. As you should see from the rest of the people in this thread that concede that firsthand knowledge and experience is worth much, much more than one or two little psych classes.

I don't know if you know this, but common knowledge is wrong. 3,000 years ago, it was common knowledge that the earth was the center of the universe. 500 years ago, it was common knowledge that the earth was flat. 20 years ago, it was common knowledge that AIDS developed in Africa. Unless somebody with a depressive disorder learns about what's going on in their mind from a logical and clinical view point, they don't know jack shit.

most who have the condition know quite a bit about it.

That's a generalization, so I'll make one of my own. Most people who don't have the condition know quite a bit about it. Unless you show me reliable statistics to prove your point right, then it stays classified as an uneducated generalization.

"Devoted time"? You think two semesters in lecture is "devoted time," kid? Damn, you're in for a hell of a ride when you get into real college classes.

The classes I've taken are real college classes, hence why I took them at a college.

In that case, nearly all deaths are preventable.

So you're staying that nobody should be able to die. Okay, that makes a whole lot of sense. Suicide is preventable, because 90% of the time, it's a conscious decision.

If you knew the stages of grief and coping mechanisms, you wouldn't be touting the bullshit claim that suicide always tears families apart.

If you knew the social effects of suicide, you'd know that it tears families apart. I'll give you a coping mechanism. Displacement. It's seen all the time in families with a suicide.

Wrong again. People with depression are not always depressed.

... Yes they are, hence why it's a major depressive disorder.

Moods don't become conditions, kid.

If you knew anything about the psychology of depression, you'd know that it becomes a condition if symptoms are shown nearly every day for two consecutive weeks.

I wouldn't have to explain that to you if you had passed even one entry-level psychology course ... wait ... now that I think on it, you never claimed that you passed. Now it makes sense.

If you really care so much, 85% the first class, 91% the second class, and 92% the current class. That third grade is liable to change by the end of the semester, though.

I really don't know why you keep calling me heartthrob, but hey, I guess that if you think I'm attractive, I can't argue with you on that. You're finally right about something.

But here in the real world, you didn't claim that they want attention so that they can get another option. You claimed that they want attention. It's alright, though, I understand that you've been caught in a lie and need to backtrack.

Shouldn't it be a given that they're trying to find another option if they want attention?

The point was that you believe your few petty little classes to trump firsthand experience, which is simply preposterous.

My classes don't Donald Trump any firsthand experience. All I've been saying was that just because somebody suffers from a depressive disorder doesn't give they inside knowledge about what's happening inside of their head.

While they may not have more knowledge on the subject, they have a different kind of knowledge, and an understanding that far surpasses the most basic studies.

Thank you.

Come back when you've had a few more classes, or a degree, and you can try to use your "education" to argue from authority at that point.

I'm not going to college to major in psychology. I just took the classes because it's a subject that I'm interested in.

If they thought nobody cared, why would they think anybody cared about what they were going through? Why would they need to apologize if they thought nobody cared?

Because even though consciously they believe that nobody cares, unconsciously, they know that's not true. Or something along those lines. In all honesty, I really don't know. I'm just bullshitting this answer.

Oh, shucks. Some kid on the internet insulted me. I'm so sad now. This will become depression, because clinical depression is apparently the result of a bad mood. That will end in suicide. That will make my family and friends guilty, to the extent that they will all commit suicide as well. This will create a ripple effect, and soon everybody in the world will have committed suicide, all because some petty little child insulted me on the internet.

You have some serious issues, man. You may want to seek professional help.

Yet you have provided absolutely nothing, other than your own imbecilic opinions, that suggest my arguments are false. Seems to be a pattern with you, really -- you disagree with me, then claim your superiority without providing a scrap of anything resembling credible evidence.

I would show you something, but once again, you have failed to offer anything yourself about what you're argue over, so why should I even bother? I'll tell you what, you provide research backing your claim, and then I'll do the same for mine.

[Sasquatch]

A lot of people with depression do seek professional help, which is why psychologists and psychiatrists still have jobs.

Yet, it's not easy for them to do so. Which is what I've been saying.

Just because there are those who would rather commit suicide than deal with their depression, doesn't mean that literally nobody seeks help. And making such a false claim is, well, ricockulous.

It's a good thing I didn't make such claim, then. A sure sign of a desperate debater is the fabrication of opponents' claims.

It's really not up to the client if or if not his or her family and friends hold an intervention or not. The intervention is to attempt to get the client to seek professional help so that the underlying cause of the depression can be dealt with, because until that happens, the depression isn't going anywhere.

There are reasons people feel lonely and abandoned (which leads to depression), and one may be the abandonment of loved ones. In such case, there are no loved ones to hold an intervention.

And again. If it was easy for people with depression to seek professional help, there would be no need for an intervention.

You're trying to tell me that there is never any case in which a person really doesn't have anybody that cares about them?

Yes, that is what I'm telling you.

I never told you in the first place that such cases didn't exist. There are two things that I don't like having put into my mouth, and one of them is words.

[emphasis mine]

Whoops. You fail again.

No, the underlying cause of which those thoughts extend from leads to clinical depression. The "realization" for worthlessness is a symptom of that underlying cause.

You're trying to argue a lack of a cause for depression. That just doesn't work.

I don't know if you know this, but common knowledge is wrong. 3,000 years ago, it was common knowledge that the earth was the center of the universe. 500 years ago, it was common knowledge that the earth was flat. 20 years ago, it was common knowledge that AIDS developed in Africa.

Hahahahahahahahahah. Wow. You had an interesting concept there, for a while.

Unfortunately for you, AIDS did develop in Africa. It wasn't from the Polio vaccine, it wasn't from the Smallpox vaccine, and it wasn't created by the CIA to control the populations of blacks and homosexuals.

So anyway, thanks for helping me prove my point. It's common knowledge that AIDS developed in Africa. Just like it's common knowledge that firsthand experience gives a better understanding than limited education on a subject does.

Unless somebody with a depressive disorder learns about what's going on in their mind from a logical and clinical view point, they don't know jack shit.

Which is still more than you know, oddly enough. Still, they know what's going on in their own mind from a viewpoint that those who have never had any experience with it.

Not if an inexperienced person has an education, mind you. But definitely if the inexperienced person has one or two courses that they like to rest upon.

That's a generalization, so I'll make one of my own. Most people who don't have the condition know quite a bit about it. Unless you show me reliable statistics to prove your point right, then it stays classified as an uneducated generalization.

That's how you're playing it now, kid? Ignoring the burden of proof and falling back to your usual "no you first!" hiding?

Here's something. When somebody has a condition of any kind, if they get professional treatment for it, they learn about it. Whether it be mental or medical. Clinical psychologists and psychiatrists not only discuss the condition with patients, they also usually have pamphlets, booklets, and handouts for patients to take.

Common sense would dictate that those who have the condition and are treated for it know at least a small bit about it. Nothing would suggest that those who don't have it even have any desire to learn about it, or that they do at all.

But what's next -- common sense is wrong, too?

The classes I've taken are real college classes, hence why I took them at a college.

Get your money back.

So you're staying that nobody should be able to die.

Oh, no. We should all be "able" to die. Hell, in some cases, I'd encourage it.

Suicide is preventable, because 90% of the time, it's a conscious decision.

If depressed people are crazy and don't know what they're thinking, like you've argued, how is it a conscious decision?

If you knew the social effects of suicide, you'd know that it tears families apart. I'll give you a coping mechanism. Displacement. It's seen all the time in families with a suicide.

Sure -- as much as any other type of death.

... Yes they are, hence why it's a major depressive disorder.

Alright, this is interesting ... your claim is that anybody with clinical depression is always depressed.

FOR THOSE OF US WHO HAVE BEEN DIAGNOSED AS CLINICALLY DEPRESSED, HOW MANY OF US, AT THE TIME, WERE NEVER IN ANY MOOD BUT DEPRESSED?

This should be fun.

If you knew anything about the psychology of depression, you'd know that it becomes a condition if symptoms are shown nearly every day for two consecutive weeks.

Show me something on clinical happiness.

If you really care so much, 85% the first class, 91% the second class, and 92% the current class. That third grade is liable to change by the end of the semester, though.

You didn't make straight A's? Damn. I can understand trying to make it realistic and believeable, but if you're gonna bullshit, you might as well hype yourself up a bit.

Shouldn't it be a given that they're trying to find another option if they want attention?

... no. Especially since you never mentioned finding another option.

If I proudly wear a bright green shirt every day, am I trying to find other shirts?

My classes don't Donald Trump any firsthand experience. All I've been saying was that just because somebody suffers from a depressive disorder doesn't give they inside knowledge about what's happening inside of their head.

And I -- along with everybody else who has been through depression -- would disagree with you.

Thank you.

For disagreeing with you? No problem. It comes naturally.

I'm not going to college to major in psychology. I just took the classes because it's a subject that I'm interested in.

Then quit trying to use your few petty little classes as an argument from authority.

Because even though consciously they believe that nobody cares, unconsciously, they know that's not true.

Subconsciously, kid. Sobconsciously.

So their subconscious writes the suicide note?

Or, if you'd prefer, they write it while they're unconscious?

Or something along those lines. In all honesty, I really don't know. I'm just bullshitting this answer.

No shit.

You have some serious issues, man. You may want to seek professional help.

Just going off the crap you've been trying to tell me.

I would show you something, but once again, you have failed to offer anything yourself about what you're argue over, so why should I even bother? I'll tell you what, you provide research backing your claim, and then I'll do the same for mine.

Once you get into some more serious college courses, you'll have to do some research on something called burden of proof. When that happens, come back to me.

[TehRealDinnin]

Alright, this is interesting ... your claim is that anybody with clinical depression is always depressed.

FOR THOSE OF US WHO HAVE BEEN DIAGNOSED AS CLINICALLY DEPRESSED, HOW MANY OF US, AT THE TIME, WERE NEVER IN ANY MOOD BUT DEPRESSED?

This should be fun.

I was diagnosed with Depression. Manic Depressive is what they called it also another term for Bi-polar. That was the main medication they gave me
I have been happy and I have been sad but NEVER IN MY LIFE HAS I EVER BEEN JUST DEPRESSED! Moods can change very fast, depending on the situation's. I wake up days sad as hell, but within moments I could be happy or laughing or mad or anything. Hell I feel Jubilant right now! BUT It can go back to being depressed, but everyone has their ups and downs.

BTW I would like to note this.

Sasquatch Is ROCKING this guy.

Seriously man thank you, you rock. I've been reading this every day and wondering if I should ever comment but I see no need but to only support you cause your stomping this.

People who haven't ever gone through it from first hand and their point of view. Shouldn't talk about what they think they know, and if you do you should state that its your thought that "such and such" Now if you have gone through it you should state "this happened to me....... such and such" But keep in mind. Every Experience is different.

And to go back on another quote.

I never told you in the first place that such cases didn't exist. There are two things that I don't like having put into my mouth, and one of them is words.

There are cases that exist. I have a friend in england, his parents abuse him,
(Don't read the spolier unless you wanna know the very far degree of what they do)

Spoiler: Rape him

and hurt him and hate him basically I could go into more and I've tried talking him into getting help or getting the police or something, he just won't listen. But there are such cases. I know of at least 1, and that is enough to say that his claim of

You're trying to tell me that there is never any case in which a person really doesn't have anybody that cares about them?

Yes, that is what I'm telling you.

Is false. Cause there is 1 at the very least.

[Clint]

There are reasons people feel lonely and abandoned (which leads to depression), and one may be the abandonment of loved ones. In such case, there are no loved ones to hold an intervention.

There is no family, but loved ones is a term used to describe anybody who somebody loves, whom just so happens to love them back, which would also include friends. Just because somebody was abandoned by his or her family doesn't mean that that person doesn't have at least one friend.

And again. If it was easy for people with depression to seek professional help, there would be no need for an intervention.

An intervention makes it easy for people to seek help.

You're trying to argue a lack of a cause for depression. That just doesn't work.

It's not a lack of a cause. As I just said, the underlying problem is the cause for depression, not the feelings of worthlessness. When seeking help, you can't just seek a cure for the feelings of worthlessness, because if you do just that, the problem will only be cured temporarily. What needs to be issued is the underlying problem. Do you get where I'm going with this, big guy?

Unfortunately for you, AIDS did develop in Africa.

Only from the mouth of an American. Americans say that AIDS developed in Africa, as a result of ****ing monkeys. Africans, however, say that AIDS developed in America. Where it came from, exactly, is still a mystery. It's ridiculous to say that it developed in Africa, because as far as we know, it could have just as well developed in America.

It's common knowledge that AIDS developed in Africa. Just like it's common knowledge that firsthand experience gives a better understanding than limited education on a subject does.

Considering that your common knowledge about AIDS is wrong, I would also like to add that firsthand experience doesn't give immediate background information on the brain during the processes of depression.

Still, they know what's going on in their own mind from a viewpoint that those who have never had any experience with it.

Actually, no they don't. For example, most people go to some type of psychologist to find out what's going on inside of their mind when they realize that they have a major screw loose. If that psychologist has never been depressed, but has studied cognitive behavior and can pinpoint major depressive disorder as the leading cause of problems, then how the hell does he know that, I wonder. Hmm... That's a mystery.

That's how you're playing it now, kid? Ignoring the burden of proof and falling back to your usual "no you first!" hiding?

Just playing the game like you would, my good friend.

When somebody has a condition of any kind, if they get professional treatment for it, they learn about it.

Going by your own words, not many people with problems ever get professional help, so therefore, by saying such a thing, you're strengthening my argument. Thank you, good sir.

But what's next -- common sense is wrong, too?

Yes, common sense is wrong.

If depressed people are crazy and don't know what they're thinking, like you've argued, how is it a conscious decision?

I never said that they were crazy, Hal. I said that they think with negative cognitive patters, which changes perspectives on things. But even so, the logical and reasonable parts of the brain should still work, even if they are a bit distorted. So, it's a conscious decision because the person is aware of what he or she is doing.

Sure -- as much as any other type of death.

More so with families who experience a suicide.

Alright, this is interesting ... your claim is that anybody with clinical depression is always depressed.

Well, in order to be diagnosed with clinical depression, one has to be depressed nearly every day for two consecutive weeks, so to answer your question, yes, in order to be clinically depressed, the client always has to be depressed. Otherwise, it's not depression.

You didn't make straight A's? Damn. I can understand trying to make it realistic and believeable, but if you're gonna bullshit, you might as well hype yourself up a bit.

What's realistic is telling the truth. I didn't get straight A's. I had an 85% in the first class, a 91% in the second class, and currently a 92% in the third class. That's two B's and an A. I'd say that's pretty damn good.

... no. Especially since you never mentioned finding another option.

Well you did, so get over it, you big freakin' baby.

If I proudly wear a bright green shirt every day, am I trying to find other shirts?

No, you just like green.

Subconsciously, kid. Sobconsciously.

No, unconsciously. Exactly what I said. The unconscious mind has nothing to do with sleep. That would be more "non-conscious" than unconscious.

You obviously know nothing of psychology, because you just failed to acknowledge the teachings of Sigmund Freud.

Once you get into some more serious college courses, you'll have to do some research on something called burden of proof. When that happens, come back to me.

No, there's no research that needs to be done on burden of proof. However, in order to do a few of the research papers that I've done during my courses, I've had to utilize burden of proof. But I'm pretty sure that nobody researches the responsibility of finding credible proof. That would just be a horrible paper.

I have been happy and I have been sad but NEVER IN MY LIFE HAS I EVER BEEN JUST DEPRESSED! Moods can change very fast, depending on the situation's. I wake up days sad as hell, but within moments I could be happy or laughing or mad or anything. Hell I feel Jubilant right now! BUT It can go back to being depressed, but everyone has their ups and downs.

I always wanted to have a manic period. It sounds like fun, as long as there's no depressive period. Perhaps there's some way to biologically cause me to have a temporary unipolar manic disorder.

People who haven't ever gone through it from first hand and their point of view. Shouldn't talk about what they think they know, and if you do you should state that its your thought that "such and such"

I never said that I haven't gone through it, which, most people probably already assumed that I haven't. I could have, and then again, I might not have. Either way, it doesn't matter, because I'm just judging the disorder from a personal viewpoint.

Cause there is 1 at the very least.

Apparently not, because you just said that he's your friend. That's at least one person who cares about him. Thank you for proving my point.

[Unknown Entity]

Alright, this is interesting ... your claim is that anybody with clinical depression is always depressed.

FOR THOSE OF US WHO HAVE BEEN DIAGNOSED AS CLINICALLY DEPRESSED, HOW MANY OF US, AT THE TIME, WERE NEVER IN ANY MOOD BUT DEPRESSED?

This should be fun.

I've never been diagnosed with clinical depression. Too scared to ask anyone really, but I remember doing an online check list somewhere with a close friend (whom won't be metioned here), and the resluts told me that I very well could be, and that I should see someone about it. So, I might have been at the time in my life.

If it was clinical depression I had, then I know the feeling of waking up wishing I could just sleep forever - not in the tired way, the worthless, pathetic way. Of the thinking everything is pointless, including my life and nothing I did had that... passion that I'd normally put into everything I did.

I know it wasn't just a mood, because I felt it all the time, and my attitude didn't once change. I didn't feel as if anyone would understand what had happened to me, no matter how much we talked. My friends worried about me for weeks and weeks. The friend I mentioned above said something to me, and wacked me which snapped me out of the downer I'd gone down - I have a bruise on side of my head to prove it too lol. But what they said? It made me feel like they cared, and understood what was up with me. I can't tell you how much I love this person for saving me - depression is horrible. I'm still waking up to the... thoughts of worthlessness, but I know now I can get over it.

So, both of you above (S and Dr)? You are both right on everything you've said. But niether of you are taking the other side of the view. One understands the medic said more, and the other the actual depressed shite. Maybe you guys should open your minds more to this issue instead of cussing the crap out of eachother. As funny as this is to watch, I can see awlful looking VMs/PMs and possibly a few warnings breathing down your backs. :S

[Furore]

I was diagnosed with depression when I was little as I hung around with core friends and made bugger all effort to embrace the whole group. Then the genius doctors realised I had Aspergers Syndrome, but not before trying to get me on the ol' cure-all anti-depressents. Whoops. And I was perfectly happy hanging around with one or two friends at that young age, especially as my SNES and megadrive were only 2-player.

My point is, a lot of doctors and science-y people rely too much on whichever result has popped up the most when doing their diagnosis of a new patient and though that approach may nail the problem a good percentage of the time, they can really **** up. Psychology in general seems to me to be far from being very reliable, especially when I look at some of the forefathers of the field who were often the kinds to spit out a lot of crap with the supposed gems. Freud for example. I read some of his works and wondered what he was smoking. Then I did some research and found out he was a crackhead. Smart to pick cocaine as it doesn't effect the body in the long run nearly as badly as some of the alternatives (including tobacco), but either way he was a crackhead.

Now I'll end on this note I think. The scientific approach in general doesn't really thrill me at all as it merely seems to pick the most feasible result and roll with it until it's shown to be very wrong (happens way too much), but I do find it amusing that someone who has in the past argued against my arguments that firsthand experiences of something are valid is now using that same train of thought. But I definetely see it as a good thing.

And Unknown Entity, let the kids play, it's a fun game of give and take for some.
Since there's no way to easily fistfight someone else from the forums, this tends to be the next best thing.

[Govinda]

I'm not quite sure what you two, Egon and Sasquatch, are fighting about. I admit, I've skimmed. I've read some annoying things too. Egon, it was you who said that there is 'always a friend or associate', right? Go ahead and explain to me then how people can die or commit suicide and their bodies be left undiscovered until a neighbour notices the smell?
I don't know if you're ever planning to put your little psych classes (which I too have studied) to use one day, but you really need to get the hang of something called human empathy before thinking of doing so.

Suicide is a very selfish act, just as depression is a very selfish illness. Schizophrenia is also a very selfish illness. I admit, I've never spoken to anyone whom I believed to have true depression; but my uncle is a paranoid schizophrenic. He lived with us for a little while until my mother had him sectioned.

One day, one of my aunties, my uncle's sister, came to visit. Things were fine. I was about 13 at the time, and didn't really think anything was wrong with my uncle. I was sitting on the back of the couch, and overheard a conversation between my auntie and uncle about my uncle's daughter, Ruby, who was 5 at the time and living in Germany with her mother. The conversation seemed perfectly pedestrian until my uncle said, 'Well, y'know, if I do decide to do it then I'll just get Sabine to tell Ruby that the plane crashed. She'll never have to know, it'll be fine. It wouldn't affect you too badly, would it? But I'd never want to hurt her.'

Took a while to sink in but my uncle was, of course, talking about suicide. At the time he was in the depths of his own psychosis; it's crazy as ****, but he thought each of us were in on a conspiracy based entirely round him, run by the aliens who were running the government, and that he could talk candidly about anything to any of us because we could read his mind anyway. He thought that my 13 year old self, within easy earshot, and his younger sister, were alien agents so that made it okay to talk about his planned suicide in the living room in the middle of the afternoon.

Luckily, he was sectioned soon after that. When he's lucid he thanks my mother for the section order. When he's not, he threatens to turn my brother and I over to the 'authorities' too as revenge for her betraying him by handing him to the 'enemy'.

You can see from that story that his world was one based entirely upon him. I'd imagine clinical depressants wouldn't be that different; 'What's the point in my life?', 'Why do I even bother?' and so on.

So the condition and the act are inherently selfish ones. But the people acting it out cannot see that. It's not that they choose not to see that the people around them love them and aren't aliens, it's not that they choose to think that every friend they've ever had hates them and their family thinks they're worthless; the condition makes them think this. And they can't see past it.

I know there are people, suicidal people, who are out there and don't have anyone. But it is the responsibility of the sane population to keep and eye out for people approaching or sinking into insanity. Friend lost his job and his wife's taken the kids? ****'s sake, go round with a beer. Be a good friend.

Some do spot the warning signs themselves and seek help, and that's great; but you have to wonder if someone who has the capacity in them to wish to improve themselves like that would ever really kill themselves anyway. You have to think you're worth saving to seek help, and that's half the battle already won.

Personally, I've never really considered killing myself. I've never had any good reason to either. I count myself very lucky to have the life I do, and to have the capacity to enjoy it. Sure, I've been sad before, and had a psychiatric referral once, but I was in a sad place then; but they say that happens to everyone at least once or twice in their lifetime, and never once did I think about ending it. My regard for my brother and my parents is far too high for that.

[Cheesevixen]

[QUOTE]

Suicide is the most selfish act that anybody can ever do.

Suicide is derived from depression, and depression (clinically) is a chemical imbalance in the brain. Although, not all people who are depressed attempt suicide studies have shown that depression makes one more likely to commit thoughtless acts; such that someone with normal brain activity would not attempt.

If somebody loves themself over everybody else, then he or she will actually go through with suicide. If somebody loves their family over themself, then the thought of actually going through with any suicidal thoughts will be out of the question.

Most suicide attempts or completions are from those who sustained family violence in some way or another. I would assume that it is harder to rise above suicide if you loved a family that beat or sexually assaulted you. Family is a big factor in young suicide victims.

Most people, especially women, will say that they are thinking about killing themselves, but saying something and doing something are two different things. They only tell people that they're going to kill themselves because they want to get attention.

Woman do attempt suicide more, as we are more emotional, however, 73% of suicide victims are white males. Suicide is the 11th. highest cause for death in the U.S. to date. So I doubt suicide is deemed (FOR ATTENTION ONLY)

That's why you see so many people cutting their wrists. Usually, cutting of the wrists isn't enough to kill, but it's as if saying, "Hey, I'm threatening my own life, pay attention to me."

Not enough information has been found to prove this theory. Many scholars believe cutting can very well start as a suicide attempt, but lead to an addiction. Pain releases chemicals making one feel better or "relieved".....like alcohol or cigarettes. Although, cutting is in the category of suicide it is not stapled to that genre.

I mean, if somebody really wanted to kill them self, they wouldn't talk about it, they would just do it. It's just like those so-called "bullies" back in the day at school who said that they were going to kick your ass, but never did. Actions back up words, not the other way around.

Suicide is actually done by those whom we listen to even less. The elderly. Many times the subject will only show the signs of depression; which in some cases cannot be helped. Although, an outreach is sometimes made....they are rarely taken seriously. Especially, with people who write things like "They just want attention"...it often makes them feel as if they would not be taken seriously if they did try to reach out about how they felt....even ashamed for the way they felt...which could lead to a deeper sense of sadness.

If somebody is actually planing to kill his or her self, my suggestion to that person would be to grow the **** up and stop thinking only about yourself, because suicide doesn't hurt you, it just hurts everybody that you care about.

Most suicide victims are already "grown up". As the ailment goes along untreated....the amount of stress put on by aging often induces feeling of suicide until they are overwhelming. Which makes it especially important to seek help. True for every suicide victim there is (on average) six people hurt by it. People at that stage of depression are often not thinking clearly. It would be like telling someone completely wasted to walk a straight line. It is difficult, and someone would need to intervene to help.

And if you actually do kill yourself, then I really hope you rot in hell for all eternity merely for putting your loved ones through the misery.

Some feel the real hell is life itself. That is only incorrect to those who have properly functioning brains, or have received help. I find it even more disgusting to tell someone with mental problem that they deserve to burn in hell. We are all God's creatures, and we all have glitches on occasion.

SuicideStats

CollegeStudies

MedicalPaper

If you are seeking help

[Meigumi]

I was close to have a suicidal thought, kupo.

[Sasquatch]

There is no family, but loved ones is a term used to describe anybody who somebody loves, whom just so happens to love them back, which would also include friends. Just because somebody was abandoned by his or her family doesn't mean that that person doesn't have at least one friend.

Doesn't mean they do, either.

An intervention makes it easy for people to seek help.

The point you continually fail to grasp is not only that it is still difficult for people with depression to seek help, but that people with causes for depression are much less likely to have the people that care about them to hold said intervention.

You keep claiming that depressed people don't think clearly -- how will an intervention help, if that's the case?

It's not a lack of a cause. As I just said, the underlying problem is the cause for depression, not the feelings of worthlessness.

The underlying problem could be feelings of worthlessness. If it's not, it causes the feelings of worthlessness, which then lead to depression. You're still not understanding the difference between causes and effects.

Only from the mouth of an American. Americans say that AIDS developed in Africa, as a result of ****ing monkeys.

Nobody mentioned screwing monkeys, kid. Keep your fantasies to yourself.

Africans, however, say that AIDS developed in America.

Some African tribes also believe that dancing causes rain and good hunts, other tribes are subhuman and barely worthy to be slaves, and that the only cure for AIDS is sex with a virgin.

Where it came from, exactly, is still a mystery. It's ridiculous to say that it developed in Africa, because as far as we know, it could have just as well developed in America.

... no, not as far as we know. as far as the civilized, technologically and medically advanced world knows, HIV came from Africa. Period. End of discussion. But if you need some evidence ...

One. Two. Three. Four. Five. Six.

I'd imagine it's too much to ask for credible evidence to back up your asinine claims, ain't it?

Considering that your common knowledge about AIDS is wrong, I would also like to add that firsthand experience doesn't give immediate background information on the brain during the processes of depression.

Wrong twice. Not only does everybody with an IQ above room-temperature know that AIDS developed in Africa, but they also know that firsthand experience does give one a greater understanding than is had by those who have never had such experience.

I never said that having depression gives "immediate background information on the brain". Please, at least attempt to argue against the points I make, instead of making things up that you think you can argue against.

Actually, no they don't. For example, most people go to some type of psychologist to find out what's going on inside of their mind when they realize that they have a major screw loose.

To get help and learn more about it. If they didn't know a damn thing about it, they wouldn't know they "have a major screw loose".

If that psychologist has never been depressed, but has studied cognitive behavior and can pinpoint major depressive disorder as the leading cause of problems, then how the hell does he know that, I wonder. Hmm... That's a mystery.

Bcause the psychologist has had more than two entry-level college courses, that's how. Besides, many people enter a field because of personal reasons -- like, say, being close to somebody with a psychological condition, or having one themselves.

Just playing the game like you would, my good friend.

First, I'm not your friend, kid. Second, I'm not playing a game -- though I do find your back-peddling and contradicting amusing. And third, the burden of proof concerning your claims is on you. It's your job to back them up, not my job to show you how wrong you are.

Going by your own words, not many people with problems ever get professional help, so therefore, by saying such a thing, you're strengthening my argument. Thank you, good sir.

Read it again -- I said "if". If they get help, they learn more about it. I wouldn't strengthen your argument if you actually knew what I said. Try again.

Yes, common sense is wrong.

Coming from you ... that really doesn't surprise me.

I never said that they were crazy, Hal. I said that they think with negative cognitive patters, which changes perspectives on things. But even so, the logical and reasonable parts of the brain should still work, even if they are a bit distorted. So, it's a conscious decision because the person is aware of what he or she is doing.

They're just not thinking clearly, according to you. How can you claim that something is a conscious decision if they aren't thinking clearly? There are defenses for murders that consist of that very argument.

More so with families who experience a suicide.

Says you. Forgive me if, based on your past claims that have consisted of pure bullshit, we don't believe you.

Well, in order to be diagnosed with clinical depression, one has to be depressed nearly every day for two consecutive weeks, so to answer your question, yes, in order to be clinically depressed, the client always has to be depressed. Otherwise, it's not depression.

Let's see some evidence -- credible evidence, from somebody other than yourself -- that one has to be depressed all day, every day for fourteen days to be diagnosed with depression.

What's realistic is telling the truth.

What's realistic is a person who has been through even one or two college psychology courses to know what the hell they're talking about. You don't exactly project realism -- so hey, if you're going to make claims that you know more about psychology than others here because you've been through a few lectures, you might as well just keep piling it on and claim you passed them with flying colors.

Well you did, so get over it, you big freakin' baby.

... but you didn't. Which was your argument. Are you going to claim that you just missed it, or are you going to admit that you tried to bullshit your way out of it?

No, you just like green.

And according to that argument and your first or second post here, those who attempt suicide just like the attention.

No, unconsciously. Exactly what I said. The unconscious mind has nothing to do with sleep. That would be more "non-conscious" than unconscious.

You obviously know nothing of psychology, because you just failed to acknowledge the teachings of Sigmund Freud.

Freud was a nut. You can want to to bone your mother all you want, but that ain't for me.

By the way -- the concept of the unconscious mind wasn't developed by Freud, it was developed by Schelling, who was an incompetent schmuck who mostly wrote jumpy and illogical nonsense.

Thanks for proudly displaying your "knowledge" of psychology, kid. Great job.

No, there's no research that needs to be done on burden of proof.

There is by you -- well, nevermind, that's an assumption. I can only assume that you are truly ignorant of the burden of proof, instead of knowing about it and simply ignoring it. Then again, if I had such asinine claims as yours, I wouldn't be able to back them up, either.

I always wanted to have a manic period. It sounds like fun, as long as there's no depressive period. Perhaps there's some way to biologically cause me to have a temporary unipolar manic disorder.

It's not like you just get a lot of energy for a while, kid. I would tell you to learn a bit about psychological disorders before you make stupid comments, but it's way too late for that.

I never said that I haven't gone through it, which, most people probably already assumed that I haven't. I could have, and then again, I might not have.

And I never said that I haven't gone through half a dozen psych courses, but you make ignorant assumptions anyway. Besides, I'm sure we know whether or not you have any experience whatsoever with psychological disorders ... at least deperssion, anyway.

Either way, it doesn't matter, because I'm just judging the disorder from a personal viewpoint.

Judging the disorder from a personal viewpoint with no personal experience? Sounds like that's not a smart thing to do.

My point is, a lot of doctors and science-y people rely too much on whichever result has popped up the most when doing their diagnosis of a new patient and though that approach may nail the problem a good percentage of the time, they can really **** up. Psychology in general seems to me to be far from being very reliable, especially when I look at some of the forefathers of the field who were often the kinds to spit out a lot of crap with the supposed gems.

Exactly. On some occasions, anybody who said something that a lot of people disagreed with is now considered a "psychologist". But you're right on psychological problems being diagnosed too frequently, I believe. Especially in the cases of ADD/ADHD and such. Not saying they don't exist, but all too often it has become a parenting tool. Can't control your kids? Dope 'em up!

... I do find it amusing that someone who has in the past argued against my arguments that firsthand experiences of something are valid is now using that same train of thought. But I definetely see it as a good thing.

I usually argue against your use of anecdotal evidence, instead of personal experience. Still, if arguments based on your personal experience could be backed up by the majority of those who have shared the same experience, I'd be all for it.

[Clint]

Doesn't mean they do, either.
The point you continually fail to grasp is not only that it is still difficult for people with depression to seek help, but that people with causes for depression are much less likely to have the people that care about them to hold said intervention.

Perhaps, yes, but until you show me actual statistics that say otherwise, I'm sticking with my argument.

You keep claiming that depressed people don't think clearly -- how will an intervention help, if that's the case?

Because they're not psychotic. Although they don't think clearly, they still possess logic and reason, and sometimes it takes the words of loved ones for somebody to acknowledge that they have a serious problem and need help.

The underlying problem could be feelings of worthlessness. If it's not, it causes the feelings of worthlessness, which then lead to depression. You're still not understanding the difference between causes and effects.

No, the feeling of worthlessness is an overlying cause for some deeper underlying cause. This is so because feelings of worthlessness don't just pop up out of thin air. They develop over time. Through what purpose, however, is the difficult question to answer.

Nobody mentioned screwing monkeys, kid. Keep your fantasies to yourself.

It's reality for me.

... no, not as far as we know. as far as the civilized, technologically and medically advanced world knows, HIV came from Africa. Period. End of discussion. But if you need some evidence ...

No, as far as any uneducated sociologist knows, AIDS came from Africa. AIDS is an anomaly of a virus, which can't be pinpointed to any one cause. All people have are theories, and some of the theories just so happen to include being transmitted by monkeys.

I'd imagine it's too much to ask for credible evidence to back up your asinine claims, ain't it?

No, if you want it, then all you have to do is ask. However, right now, you're merely asking if it's too much to ask for evidence, so you've still failed to ask me to prove my point, and therefore, I won't just yet.

I never said that having depression gives "immediate background information on the brain".

Yes, you did. Or at least, your words brought me to the assumption that that's what you meant. If you want me to understand you more clearly, then go into greater detail about that of which you speak.

If they didn't know a damn thing about it, they wouldn't know they "have a major screw loose".

It's not that hard to figure out that you've been depressed on and off for quite some time.

Bcause the psychologist has had more than two entry-level college courses, that's how.

What a coincidence. So do I!

First, I'm not your friend, kid.

That's only because you're in denial. We are two peas in a pod, and deep down at the bottom of your black heart, you know it.

though I do find your back-peddling and contradicting amusing.

I can honestly say the same thing about you.

It's your job to back them up, not my job to show you how wrong you are.

Isn't the point of a debate to show your opponent how wrong they are?

Read it again -- I said "if". If they get help, they learn more about it. I wouldn't strengthen your argument if you actually knew what I said. Try again.

But, like you said, the population of people who do get help for their problems is very minimal, so there's actually not that many people with the disorder who knows a lot about it. I hope you realize that by arguing this point, you're contradicting what you previously stated.

Coming from you ... that really doesn't surprise me.

It doesn't surprise me that after those examples I gave, you still think that common sense is right. One hundred years ago it was common sense that man couldn't walk on the moon. 500 years ago it was common sense that man couldn't fly. Is common sense still right? Many things that supposedly hold water today, won't a hundred years from now.

They're just not thinking clearly, according to you. How can you claim that something is a conscious decision if they aren't thinking clearly? There are defenses for murders that consist of that very argument.

As I said before, they're not thinking clearly, but they're not psychotic.

we don't believe you.

You have a dual personality? Sweet!

that one has to be depressed all day, every day for fourteen days to be diagnosed with depression.

No, no, no, that's not what I said. I said they have to be depressed most days continuously for two weeks. If you don't believe me, then just go look it up in the DSM. That's literally where I got this diagnosis from.

you might as well just keep piling it on and claim you passed them with flying colors.

I got two B's and I was exempt from the final in abnormal. I'd call that passing with flying colors, considering that I was, both times, one full letter grade above the lowest passing letter grade.

... but you didn't. Which was your argument. Are you going to claim that you just missed it, or are you going to admit that you tried to bullshit your way out of it?

No, I think it means that since you said it, even though it was a given in my first post, that you're going to make a big deal about it until I admit (lie) that I was wrong. Unfortunately for you, my very good friend, I'm as stubborn as they come.

And according to that argument and your first or second post here, those who attempt suicide just like the attention.

No, they want attention, because they don't really want to kill themselves. They want somebody to listen to them.

By the way -- the concept of the unconscious mind wasn't developed by Freud, it was developed by Schelling, who was an incompetent schmuck who mostly wrote jumpy and illogical nonsense.

So now you claim that there is no unconscious mind. So tell me, why is it that you are the way you are today? Why do you walk the way you do? What about your mannerisms? Or about the way you think? It's all in the unconscious mind, as long as you haven't been evaluated by a psychiatrist.

There is by you -- well, nevermind, that's an assumption. I can only assume that you are truly ignorant of the burden of proof, instead of knowing about it and simply ignoring it.

Well, burden of proof isn't a topic. It's to provide proof for as a responsibility. It's not my fault that you suck at wording your sentences.

It's not like you just get a lot of energy for a while, kid.

I never said it was. All I said was that it would be fun to have Mania for a few days. I'd get a lot accomplished... Actually, no I wouldn't. I would get a lot started, but I would never be able to finish anything.

And I never said that I haven't gone through half a dozen psych courses, but you make ignorant assumptions anyway.

Well you make the assumption that I'm an idiot, so I guess that makes us even. I can tell, just for the record, that you haven't taken any psych courses.

I'm sure we know whether or not you have any experience whatsoever with psychological disorders ... at least deperssion, anyway.

I told you that I've been depressed before, but I never stated the severity. And if you care to know, I have quite a few anxiety disorders, including OCD and GAD, among others.

Judging the disorder from a personal viewpoint with no personal experience? Sounds like that's not a smart thing to do.

Did I ever say that I don't have personal experiences?

Can't control your kids? Dope 'em up!

The diagnosis for ADD and ADHD aren't exactly precise anymore. Kids have too much energy, more than kids used to have. I'm not sure why. Maybe it has something to do with inactivity, or perhaps too much sugar or soda. Or perhaps the parents themselves are just too damn lazy to look after their kids. Psychologists haven't been able to put a finger on the reasoning for the increasing numbers, but it is an interesting topic.

[Furore]

I usually argue against your use of anecdotal evidence, instead of personal experience. Still, if arguments based on your personal experience could be backed up by the majority of those who have shared the same experience, I'd be all for it.

And I wonder how the line between you feeling something is anecdotal evidence or personal experience works. I mean really, if something's happened to you, it's personal experience. It can also be construed by someone as 'anecdotal evidence' which does very little bar attempting to invalidate it in the eyes of those who are aware of what anecdotal evidence actually means. I assume in most cases you would be speaking of the first meaning of anecdotal evidence, ie that based around an anecdote or hearsay rather than that which is considered true and verifiable being used to deduce an invalid conclusion in a way not logical, as I don't tend to use the second for any reason other than humour (my Jerry Springer paragraph in another thread comes to mind) I believe you're referring to the first type. Unfortunately when calling my evidence 'anecdotal' in the first type I mentioned, you cannot be sure my evidence is anecdotal as you simply don't know me or my doings well enough, especially as I don't tend to speak of parts of my life or past often enough in general let alone online. I will allow that in some cases you could call some of my words anecdotal as they may involve hearsay in some cases as I do use a few examples every so often of friends I've made, but as I do label those particular cases as such by stating the source as a friend, family member or whoever else, it is valid secondary evidence. This isn't the court system rather thankfully.

And on topic, I wonder if depression isn't the only trigger for suicide. Some people get curious and a few of those curious people can't control their impulses. Like those people who have a need to open their car door when doing 100km/h on the freeway to see what would happen for example. An example... 'Hmmm, I wonder what would happen if I jump off that few hundred metre high cliff??!!!!' *SPLAT*

[Sasquatch]

Perhaps, yes, but until you show me actual statistics that say otherwise, I'm sticking with my argument.

You've stated in other threads that you will never change your views, no matter how many facts you're presented with. Therefore, the only reason for me to continue this debacle is to advance the understanding of the audience between you and me, not you personally. And you're the only one here that doesn't understand this point ... or any other in this subject.

Because they're not psychotic. Although they don't think clearly, they still possess logic and reason, and sometimes it takes the words of loved ones for somebody to acknowledge that they have a serious problem and need help.

Psychosis is defined as any severe form of a mental disorder -- therefore, a severely depressed person could indeed be psychotic. Still, your attempted argument is that they're not thinking clearly, but they're thinking clearly.

No, the feeling of worthlessness is an overlying cause for some deeper underlying cause. This is so because feelings of worthlessness don't just pop up out of thin air. They develop over time. Through what purpose, however, is the difficult question to answer.

And feelings of worthlessness can be present without clinical depression. Hence, the feelings are a cause, not a symptom. Thank you for proving my point.

No, as far as any uneducated sociologist knows, AIDS came from Africa.

Now are you claiming to be an educated sociologist, too? It's been proven to the greatest extent possible that AIDS came from Africa. Period. Hands down.

AIDS is an anomaly of a virus, which can't be pinpointed to any one cause.

Wrong again. Take a look at the six lniks I posted -- there's a reason I posted them, and that was so that you could educate yourself. Apparently, my effort has gone to waste.

"AIDS is the anomaly of a virus ..." -- Actually, it's the result of the HIV virus, which is the anomaly -- of SIV, Simian Immunodeficiency Virus.

"... which can't be pinpointed to any one cause." -- The type of SIV that spreads to humans has been pinpointed to the Pan troglodytes troglodytes sub-species, which only exists in the Central African rainforest.

Any other common knowledge you want to argue against? Let me guess, the moon landing was faked? Bush masterminded 9/11? Contrails are actually clouds of mind-control agents? O.J. really didn't do it?

Yes, you did. Or at least, your words brought me to the assumption that that's what you meant. If you want me to understand you more clearly, then go into greater detail about that of which you speak.

... No, I didn't. Please, if you can't debate what I actually say, just leave the conversation, instead of fabricating my views. If you don't understand what I post, don't make ignorant assumptions about it.

It's not that hard to figure out that you've been depressed on and off for quite some time.

On and off? You claimed that one has to be consistently depressed -- feel nothing but depression -- for two weeks to be clinically depressed.

What a coincidence. So do I!

You claim to be working on a third. Thus, even according to your claims, you have not completed more than two courses.

Isn't the point of a debate to show your opponent how wrong they are?

In a debate with a sensible opponent, somewhat, but not completely. Especially if the opponent has openly admitted that they will never change their views, despite what level of factual evidence they are presented.

No, the point of a debate is to show the audience how wrong your opponent's views are, and/or how correct your views are.

Regardless, the burden of proof concerning your claims lies on you.

But, like you said, the population of people who do get help for their problems is very minimal, so there's actually not that many people with the disorder who knows a lot about it.

When did I say that the percentage of people with the problem that get help for it is minimal?

It doesn't surprise me that after those examples I gave, you still think that common sense is right. One hundred years ago it was common sense that man couldn't walk on the moon. 500 years ago it was common sense that man couldn't fly.

One hundred years ago, man couldn't walk on the moon. Five hundred years ago, man couldn't fly.

Would you care to try again?

No, no, no, that's not what I said. I said they have to be depressed most days continuously for two weeks.

Well, in order to be diagnosed with clinical depression, one has to be depressed nearly every day for two consecutive weeks, so to answer your question, yes, in order to be clinically depressed, the client always has to be depressed.
[emphasis mine]

They always have to be depressed? That's what you said. Nice try, kid.

No, I think it means that since you said it, even though it was a given in my first post, that you're going to make a big deal about it until I admit (lie) that I was wrong. Unfortunately for you, my very good friend, I'm as stubborn as they come.

Ah. You're going to try to bullshit your way out of it. I have my answer.

No, they want attention, because they don't really want to kill themselves. They want somebody to listen to them.

It's too bad you didn't say that when you first claimed that they just want attention, or else you might be taken seriously.

So now you claim that there is no unconscious mind. So tell me, why is it that you are the way you are today? Why do you walk the way you do? What about your mannerisms? Or about the way you think?

Combination of conscious and subconscious mind.

It's all in the unconscious mind, as long as you haven't been evaluated by a psychiatrist.

And if I have?

Well, burden of proof isn't a topic. It's to provide proof for as a responsibility. It's not my fault that you suck at wording your sentences.

Burden of proof can be a topic, just like anything else. Regardless of what you consider it, you need to learn about it, so you can stop complaining that others haven't presented evidence against your asinine claims when it's your responsibility to back them up in the first place.

Well you make the assumption that I'm an idiot, so I guess that makes us even.

Call it an informed guess.

I can tell, just for the record, that you haven't taken any psych courses.

And you can tell wrong. But that hasn't stopped you before.

I told you that I've been depressed before, but I never stated the severity.

When?

And if you care to know, I have quite a few anxiety disorders, including OCD and GAD, among others.

Have they been diagnosed by professionals, or self-diagnosed?

The diagnosis for ADD and ADHD aren't exactly precise anymore. Kids have too much energy, more than kids used to have. I'm not sure why. Maybe it has something to do with inactivity, or perhaps too much sugar or soda. Or perhaps the parents themselves are just too damn lazy to look after their kids. Psychologists haven't been able to put a finger on the reasoning for the increasing numbers, but it is an interesting topic.

While sugar may be a decent argument, kids today don't really have more energy than they used to. They just have less discipline. More inactivity would lead to less energy (lower metabolism) and higher childhood obesity rates, which is exactly what we're seeing. That combines with the sugar issue, of course.

[Clint]

Psychosis is defined as any severe form of a mental disorder -- therefore, a severely depressed person could indeed be psychotic. Still, your attempted argument is that they're not thinking clearly, but they're thinking clearly.

The DSM states that there are nine psychotic disorders, which are schizophrenia, schizoaffective disorder, schizophreniform disorder, breif psychotic disorder, delusional disorder, shared psychotic disorder, substance-induced psychosis, psychosis due to a general medical condition, and the wastebasket category. Nowhere in that description does it include any depressive disorders.

And feelings of worthlessness can be present without clinical depression. Hence, the feelings are a cause, not a symptom. Thank you for proving my point.

If you feel worthless, then you're depressed. There's really no other way around it. Nobody who isn't depressed would say, "I am an idiot, my life sucks, there's no point for me to live," and actually mean it. If you say, or even think those kinds of things, and actually mean them, then you're depressed.

Now are you claiming to be an educated sociologist, too?

No, but I don't have to be an educated sociologist to speak to an educated sociologist.

"AIDS is the anomaly of a virus ..." -- Actually, it's the result of the HIV virus, which is the anomaly -- of SIV, Simian Immunodeficiency Virus.

Yes. Good job putting that together.

"... which can't be pinpointed to any one cause." -- The type of SIV that spreads to humans has been pinpointed to the Pan troglodytes troglodytes sub-species, which only exists in the Central African rainforest.

Let me give you a history lesson. In 1959, a man entered a hospital in Kinshasa, Central Africa. The sample of this mans blood was frozen, and when it was examined in the 1980s, it turns out that this man carried the HIV virus. The location of the virus back in the 50s means nothing, because it proves that the virus existed long before it was ever first diagnosed, meaning that it could have come from literally anywhere. If you want to assume something that has yet to be proven, then go ahead, but you're only making an ass out of yourself.

Let me guess, the moon landing was faked? Bush masterminded 9/11?

That's not common sense, is it? Unless if conspiracy theory now translates to common sense. Either way, conspiracy theory or common sense, it would be just about as reliable.

... No, I didn't. Please, if you can't debate what I actually say, just leave the conversation, instead of fabricating my views. If you don't understand what I post, don't make ignorant assumptions about it.

If you don't want me to make "ignorant assumptions," then write better.

On and off? You claimed that one has to be consistently depressed -- feel nothing but depression -- for two weeks to be clinically depressed.

No, I'm pretty sure that I just gave the DSM's diagnosis. Mostly depressed for two consecutive weeks. That doesn't mean "feeling nothing but depression." What, you don't have access to the DSM? I'm pretty sure that it's online.

You claim to be working on a third. Thus, even according to your claims, you have not completed more than two courses.

The semester is over in a month, and I'm guaranteed to pass.

Regardless, the burden of proof concerning your claims lies on you.

And the same goes for your claims. Now you've shown some (unreliable) proof concerning the AIDS debate, but this is about suicide, and not AIDS.

When did I say that the percentage of people with the problem that get help for it is minimal?

When you said that not many people get help.

One hundred years ago, man couldn't walk on the moon. Five hundred years ago, man couldn't fly.

Would you care to try again?

You are such an idiot. Man can walk on the moon, and man can fly. It's not rocket science. A retard would have been able to figure that one out.

They always have to be depressed? That's what you said. Nice try, kid.

Stop twisting both of our words, heartthrob. You said that in some cases of clinical depression, there wasn't any depression involved. My response was that there has to be depression involved for it to be diagnosed as clinical depression.

Ah. You're going to try to bullshit your way out of it. I have my answer.

You are the pettiest person I have ever had a discussion with. Tell me, are you this trivial in the real world?

It's too bad you didn't say that when you first claimed that they just want attention, or else you might be taken seriously.

Actually, I did. It's called subtext. Just because I don't come out and say it, doesn't mean it's not there. Try reading it again, big guy.

Combination of conscious and subconscious mind.

No, it comes from the unconscious. It's true that subconscious is a psychology term. Good job with that. Unfortunately for you, so is unconscious. I suggest you look up what the psychological definition of unconscious is before you start arguing about it again. I meant unconscious, not subconscious. I really don't like to be corrected when there isn't a reason to be corrected.

And if I have?

Then you know what's going on inside of your unconscious mind. You know, you're really good at piecing things together.

Regardless of what you consider it, you need to learn about it, so you can stop complaining that others haven't presented evidence against your asinine claims when it's your responsibility to back them up in the first place.

I need to learn about it? It's the responsibility to provide proof. What, you think it's a difficult concept to grasp? You provide credible proof for your opinion of suicide, whatever your opinion may be, and I'll provide credible material to back up my side of the argument.

Call it an informed guess.

An informed guess? So you have some sort of record on me? Some legal document, maybe, or perhaps an IQ test? If you don't have anything, then it can't possibly be an informed guess, now can it?

And you can tell wrong. But that hasn't stopped you before.

No, I can tell. You don't know the terminology, the basic teachings, but most importantly, you never even thought about looking in the DSM.

When?

In an earlier post. I said that I've been depressed before, but that fact alone doesn't give me any valuable information about the psychology of depression. Then you went on to say that being depressed and having depression are two entirely different things, and that most people diagnosed with clinical depression have literally never been depressed in their entire lives, or some bullshit of that nature.

Have they been diagnosed by professionals, or self-diagnosed?

Professional diagnosis.

While sugar may be a decent argument, kids today don't really have more energy than they used to. They just have less discipline. More inactivity would lead to less energy (lower metabolism) and higher childhood obesity rates, which is exactly what we're seeing. That combines with the sugar issue, of course.

Alright, that makes perfect sense. I could see ADD/ADHD developing due to lack of discipline.