Religion, but different

[Govinda]

I have some phrases, stolen from a book I have been reading.

'Without God, all is permitted.'

'If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him.'

I will give my own opinions in due course.

Discuss.

[Joe]

Reminds me of the work of Thomas Hobbes, the philosopher. Hobbes believed that without a central power; a god-like figure or strong central government that humans would eventually turn to a state of chaos, and civilization would break down, as there would be no way for people to hold together. This was how governments formed early on in history; they centered around religion, the common bonding factor. So yes, without god all things are possible, however, they won't do anyone any good at all, because there will be no real way to share it.

God and religion provide these "Leviathans" that keep people in line. They provide common morals in most cases, and also provide a reward for doing well, and not committing bad or wrong acts (re: heaven). They also provide a punishment in order to fear those not enticed by the reward (re: hell). Without religion to bond people together, civilization would, to some extent, fall.

Many people all need something to believe in, so that they can get by day-to-day. And even though people can take religion to the extremes, as in the case of the jihadists, or uber polygamist mormon sects, for the most part religion does good things in peoples lives, and makes many things possible.

Not everyone has the stomach to believe that us mere mortals are all that there is to life, therefore, even if there's nothing at all, humans would create a god figure to get the feeling that someone created us and that there's something other than us in the world.

Why yes, this was mildly ramblish but I'm not all here right now, but wanted to get a post in on this. (FTR, I don't know what I believe yet, as to the god/no god/several gods concepts)

[RamesesII]

[QUOTE]

Reminds me of the work of Thomas Hobbes, the philosopher. Hobbes believed that without a central power; a god-like figure or strong central government that humans would eventually turn to a state of chaos, and civilization would break down, as there would be no way for people to hold together. This was how governments formed early on in history; they centered around religion, the common bonding factor. So yes, without god all things are possible, however, they won't do anyone any good at all, because there will be no real way to share it.

In the modern world there is no central god no one god that the whole population of the world reveres although each community or different race all believe in there own 'god' but you also mention without a central government that humans would turn to a state of chaos yes this would be true,we are like a colony of ants we all answer to that one power and it has been like that all throughout history but not to one central god.
Let me explain the most earliest forms of civilizations worshiped multiple gods.
Egyptians,Greeks,Chinese,American Indians, African, Japanese, Aboriginals and the list goes on this is where the modern world has made a mistake in history civilized communities all worshiped multiple gods or spirits each with their own value or purpose and in those days wars were not fought over religion but power and land and to have the biggest armies or the biggest penis as some people would put it they didn't squabble over gods who's god was right and who's wasn't that is where Christianity and Muslims and the like all have it wrong it is when everyone was worshiping one central god and then started to believe that theirs was supreme over any other god which then broke out into bloodshed of an imaginary figure that we only chose to believe. See back in those days of multiple deities they all had their value so to say for example Greek god of war was Ares the Norse god of war was Mars my point being that despite each race had their different deities they were all based upon the same thing so therefore there gods were the same just imagined differently and given different names and it could even be said that Greek, Norse and other European deities were derivatives of the Egyptian gods.

So my argument being yes it is in human nature to invent higher beings to worship and yes it was done to unite the people to think and act the same but it as done by the original ruling human beings of these races so he had power over his subjects and in doing so had their loyalty to him/her and in most cases it was only believed to be like this because it was the ruling power who had direct contact with these deities so his community would see him as holy or all knowing so to speak.

God and religion provide these "Leviathans" that keep people in line. They provide common morals in most cases, and also provide a reward for doing well, and not committing bad or wrong acts (re: heaven). They also provide a punishment in order to fear those not enticed by the reward (re: hell). Without religion to bond people together, civilization would, to some extent, fall.

No not god and religion but the Ruler provided these "Leviathans" so he could keep them in his command and anyone who did not believe was punished or executed so the others would learn a lesson. Without religion to bond people civilization would fall but its with religion that we also have problems as well take peoples hate against Muslims and Islamic if we did not follow a religion would there be any hate between the Palestine and Iran or Christians and the non Christians.

[Joe]

[QUOTE=dragoon;1197457]

In the modern world there is no central god no one god that the whole population of the world reveres although each community or different race all believe in there own 'god' but you also mention without a central government that humans would turn to a state of chaos yes this would be true,we are like a colony of ants we all answer to that one power and it has been like that all throughout history but not to one central god.
Let me explain the most earliest forms of civilizations worshiped multiple gods.
Egyptians,Greeks,Chinese,American Indians, African, Japanese, Aboriginals and the list goes on this is where the modern world has made a mistake in history civilized communities all worshiped multiple gods or spirits each with their own value or purpose and in those days wars were not fought over religion but power and land and to have the biggest armies or the biggest penis as some people would put it they didn't squabble over gods who's god was right and who's wasn't that is where Christianity and Muslims and the like all have it wrong it is when everyone was worshiping one central god and then started to believe that theirs was supreme over any other god which then broke out into bloodshed of an imaginary figure that we only chose to believe. See back in those days of multiple deities they all had their value so to say for example Greek god of war was Ares the Norse god of war was Mars my point being that despite each race had their different deities they were all based upon the same thing so therefore there gods were the same just imagined differently and given different names and it could even be said that Greek, Norse and other European deities were derivatives of the Egyptian gods.

So my argument being yes it is in human nature to invent higher beings to worship and yes it was done to unite the people to think and act the same but it as done by the original ruling human beings of these races so he had power over his subjects and in doing so had their loyalty to him/her and in most cases it was only believed to be like this because it was the ruling power who had direct contact with these deities so his community would see him as holy or all knowing so to speak.

No not god and religion but the Ruler provided these "Leviathans" so he could keep them in his command and anyone who did not believe was punished or executed so the others would learn a lesson. Without religion to bond people civilization would fall but its with religion that we also have problems as well take peoples hate against Muslims and Islamic if we did not follow a religion would there be any hate between the Palestine and Iran or Christians and the non Christians.

I agree to an extent. Here is all a matter of perception. Even If said ruler created the leviathans for the sole purpose of maintaining power, the main idea is that the common people, like you, and me, believed that these figures Existed. Which is as good as giving it a solid form in many ways. It's all perception. You may believe that your god is real, but it could all just be a fabrication of the church, or someone higher up in that area. The point is that You think it's real, and therefore You follow his precepts, rules and laws.

Also, it seems that you're saying that since there are many different gods/deities/concepts that people worship that it might invalidate my point. Clarify if I'm wrong on that assumption please.

Even though people worship many different deities, these being still provide the central command in many peoples lives. And most of the time, the people live nice, peaceful lives, because they are doing good acts, and enjoying life. There are always the warmongers out there who will attack in the name or religion, but then again, there are deviants in any society, and you can't judge the many based on the acts of the few in a case like this.

As to the one central god concept, Muslims, Jews and Christians all worship the same god. Muslims don't think that Jesus was the final prophet, Christians believe jesus was the final prophet, so to speak, and the Jews are still waiting for their messiah. Same god, just differences in dogma and practices. If I remember correctly Buddhists and Taoists don't believe in any particular deity, and the hindus believe in many gods, but that still binds them together for one purpose.

[RamesesII]

I agree to an extent. Here is all a matter of perception. Even If said ruler created the leviathans for the sole purpose of maintaining power, the main idea is that the common people, like you, and me, believed that these figures Existed. Which is as good as giving it a solid form in many ways. It's all perception. You may believe that your god is real, but it could all just be a fabrication of the church, or someone higher up in that area. The point is that You think it's real, and therefore You follow his precepts, rules and laws.

That's true we chose to believe it and the laws and rules made from it so therefore it binds us together under the one 'code' which means we would live a more peaceful life, Whether it be fabrication by the ruling power or just a general belief by the people.

Also, it seems that you're saying that since there are many different gods/deities/concepts that people worship that it might invalidate my point. Clarify if I'm wrong on that assumption please.

I suppose my point was a bit obscure, Well at the moment yes the majority of religion is Christianity and then you have Muslims and Islamic and Buddhism but yet is there not still chaos and unrest around the world because of the different beliefs, although they are all the same thing a central deity but they have been attached to different rules so therefore each side believes their rules are the right ones which results in wars and fights etc, and even having central governing powers being religious or not we still have wavered alliances and no alliances at all so one country does not believe the other country should have any more power than the other. So it doesn't matter if there is a central government or religion there will still be that disagreement between countries.
I hope i explain myself properly there.

Even though people worship many different deities, these being still provide the central command in many peoples lives. And most of the time, the people live nice, peaceful lives, because they are doing good acts, and enjoying life. There are always the warmongers out there who will attack in the name or religion, but then again, there are deviants in any society, and you can't judge the many based on the acts of the few in a case like this.

Yes there will always be the warmongers and extremists for example Hitlers so called purge or purification. But it's those extremists that bring religion into the equation then things get ugly because they slander each others deity which offends the rest of the people resulting in civil war and unrest.

[SOLDIER #819]

Nice alternate topic.

Hmm... If I remember any of my world history correctly, some of the oldest known of civilizations didn't use deities to outright control people. Life depended on luck, more or less. A population could be thriving at any one time and famine or diseases could rear its ugly head not long after. They had no explanation for the reasons, and thus...

The deities of the earlier periods were particularly cruel, and probably "created" to give a civilization some sense of control. If you could appease a certain deity, a catastrophe could be avoided, or perhaps you would gain divine favor/good fortune in some aspect of life. Even if these offerings failed, they still had a reason for why such a tragedy took place. If I had to choose a reason for why religion "exists", it would be to give people a sense of control and to conquer fear of death (both through prevention and afterlife). It would only be when after religion became important in everyday life that someone could use it as a mechanism of control (naturally).

With advances in science we can easily explain and prevent many of the problems of yesterday. People live secure and happy in lives in comparison to the people of the past. We may have our problems, but we (the more prosperous countries) aren't dying of widespread food shortage and other terrible things. I think a movement toward a less spiritually-guided lifestyle comes with this as we don't have as much of a want/need for some of the guarantees a religion claimed to have afforded.

There are still two issues, however. The first is that we still can't escape death. It is very hard to accept the reality of it. So we look outside of ourselves for the answer to this "problem", toward religion. Or we may look inside ourselves and find other abstract concepts that also afford us some level of comfort. Concepts of souls and the like are fairly cemented into our culture, so it is very possible (and easy) to do that now. Not to mention that people are able to live well past the age of 35 nowadays, so we can put off this pressing issue until much later on.

The second issue is government and the security it provides. In wealthier countries it may have very well usurped the role of religion. Sure, it can't answer the "big" questions like, "Where do we go after we die," but it addresses immediate concerns that affect our everyday lives. You don't even need to like the "government," you just need to rely on its infrastructure. You go to school or work everyday at a company that operates within its bounds, when you're sick you visit a hospital that does likewise, and if there's an emergency you call the the proper authorities to assist. If the system satisfies the needs of the people to some extent, they will most likely adopt at least some of the practices of that system. We may disagree with what "it" does on certain issues, but we normally think in terms of how we can improve it and not how to strike out against it. That is, working within the system. We may even look the other way even if we disagree, thinking that overall it is for the so-called "greater good." Similar to religion in many ways, I'm sure.

Which isn't to say that a religion can't be real. If you, whoever you may be, believe in a God or Gods then a lot of what I'm saying may not really work. Which is fine too!

[Jdnixon26]

This is the *peyote thread

[Shadow Of Darkness]

In these time its hard to find a person who truly believes in God. I think there is more people who dont believe. They say it just all fake and that he doesnt exzisz. That force that embraces the whole universe. I myself are a believer although I dont believe in some of the stuff from the Bible. Its not logical at all. Oh yeah, I HATE those fanatics that take all this religion stuff too damn serious aka Spiritual warriors..retards.

[RamesesII]

Hmm... If I remember any of my world history correctly, some of the oldest known of civilizations didn't use deities to outright control people. Life depended on luck, more or less. A population could be thriving at any one time and famine or diseases could rear its ugly head not long after. They had no explanation for the reasons, and thus...

They didn't create them to control people but they believed in them to bring them good fortune or a healthy baby a successful battle or hunt etc
Of course it all depend on the luck of the draw their deities were never real unless of course if you believe in the placebo effect but its that bad luck and/or misfortune that kept them devote to their deities if a women prayed to the goddess or god of child birth or pregnancy (using modern terms) and they miscarried they would see that as a punishment from the goddess that they have not been devote or done something wrong therefore they prayed harder next time.

The deities of the earlier periods were particularly cruel, and probably "created" to give a civilization some sense of control. If you could appease a certain deity, a catastrophe could be avoided, or perhaps you would gain divine favor/good fortune in some aspect of life. Even if these offerings failed, they still had a reason for why such a tragedy took place. If I had to choose a reason for why religion "exists", it would be to give people a sense of control and to conquer fear of death (both through prevention and afterlife). It would only be when after religion became important in everyday life that someone could use it as a mechanism of control (naturally).

They weren't cruel but yes they believed that if they could appease a certain god they would be kept from harms way or safe.
I also think religion is created to escape that fear of death if we believe that there is life after death or heaven than we would not fear death unless of course you were Egyptian and you were not such a good person, the saying goes that Anubis would put your heart onto a set of scales and if you were just then you would be praised by Osiris and enter the after life but if you were not just the Amit would eat your heart and then you would be caught in a state of purgatory and not allowed into the afterlife.

Yes in some cultures it was used as a method of control but when a whole culture was devote and actually truly believed in these gods there was no need for control as long as they feared the wrath of the gods they would already be controlled.

With advances in science we can easily explain and prevent many of the problems of yesterday. People live secure and happy in lives in comparison to the people of the past. We may have our problems, but we (the more prosperous countries) aren't dying of widespread food shortage and other terrible things. I think a movement toward a less spiritually-guided lifestyle comes with this as we don't have as much of a want/need for some of the guarantees a religion claimed to have afforded.

Yes with advances in science we now know why we get bad weather or women miscarry babies so the faith was slowly diminished.