Organized Religion

[M16]

I'm starting this thread not to ask what your personal religion is, but rather to address your opinion on the topic of organized religion. Do you believe it to be a particularly useful institution? Or do you, like me, find it to be useful, but far from necessary? Or are you perhaps against the whole system all together?

For me, it is moderately a double-edged sword. On one hand, I do not appreciate the harm that comes from organized religion. Even completely ignoring the wars based on the dichotomy of worship of the same god(s), I still find that organized religion can lead to some pretty detrimental effects. For instance, the topic of marriage. It is only due to a large institutionalized religion that marriage has become a controversial topic. It is only because marriage is defined in the bible as the convening of a man and a woman. And I won't even get started on why that statement alone should be considered as irrelevant on the topic of marriage. To sum up the marriage point, it would not even be an issue were it not for the large influence of an organized religion.

Organized religion also seems to be the medium through which much of the internal racism in this country travels. If not the medium, then certainly the base. Racism is based off of a prejudice that stems from the difference between people. When you follow this back to its root, where else do differences lie besides the religion? Skin color and accent, I suppose, but that's hardly the gist of it. It's because we were taught that Jesus and all his followers and all the members of the bible were white. If not taught directly, then it's certainly supposed to be understood. Correct me if I'm wrong, but most followers of the bible get offended when you mention the impossibility of Jesus being white, no?

While I do find that organized religion has many pitfalls, I also can not overlook its usefulness. As much racism as it may spread, its ability to tie people together is uncanny. Religion is often sought as a last resort for many people who are down on their luck and don't have much else to turn to. Organized religion of course also offers many lessons on common morality and the golden rule. Many laws are also based off of the teachings of the bible.

Opinions?

[Fluffy]

I find that it has its usefulness, but I'm not certain it outweighs any negatives that may come with it. It can often bring people together for good like not many other things seem to manage to do. The unfortunate side-effect is that it also sometimes brings them together for bad.

For instance, the topic of marriage. It is only due to a large institutionalized religion that marriage has become a controversial topic. It is only because marriage is defined in the bible as the convening of a man and a woman.

I'm not so certain that this is true. It may be making things more difficult to overcome, but I would not say it's the cause. The cause comes before religion. Ask yourself, why would marriage even be considered to be between a man and a woman within a religion in the first place? In my opinion, the answer is quite simple; it's because the majority of people find the alternative gross and unnatural. But mostly gross.

Regarding religion and race, I believe that if there was no religion to channel any racism, racism would still spread. Whether you hate people because of religion or because of race, it doesn't really matter. You'll find a reason to hate them, because they're different. People hate groups of people because of the type of government or economy they have. Stupid reasons to hate a group of people, to be certain, but it's a reason nonetheless. People will attack anything that doesn't fit in with what they're used to.

Many laws are also based off of the teachings of the bible.

Here again, morality came before religion. Many teachings of the Bible are basically laws themselves. Laws are based on the concept of morality, which is one of the bases of religion. Our current laws and the laws of the Bible just happen to coincide because it is generally agreed that those are moral things to follow. Take out religion and I believe we'd still be following the same laws.

Overall I think that, although religion may facilitate certain bad things, people would find other ways to do it anyway. Just the same, maybe they'd find other ways to do good. Religion is just the vessel. Without it, we'd find another one, or make one if we have to.

[Govinda]

I can't really tell what you're getting at here. Racism does not come from religion at all. It is a product of slavery. Black people were all slaves, and they could not hide their skin colour and therefore could not hide their status; white people assumed superiority, and then became feaful of revenge when the blacks were freed. It sticks to this day, in slightly mutated forms.

It's like a football team, as I see it. People like to get together with others who share their opinions, as it reinforces their own personal worldview and makes them feel validated, strong, and right. You don't get many relgiions of one for that reason. And also for that reason, it will always be here, so I don't really have an opinion on it. It shapes the world constantly. I would rather the world be shaped by reason, but even that could go horribly wrong.

Good morning.

[Jin]

Didn't every one of us post in a thread exactly like this within the last few weeks? Weren't we already discussing organized religion in the previous thread about religion? I seem to remember doing so. This thread is a carbon copy.

Organized religion does no good. Organized religion does no bad. Organized religion simply does. Fluffy said it best, all it's contributions/problems come before religion.

Now can this be the last thread on this topic for at least 3 months?

[M16]

Sorry if it bothers you that this seems to be a tired topic, but it also seems to be the only topic that strikes up any interest in the ID forums. I've noticed that very few have an extensive knowledge of any scientific subject, and roughly the same amount seem to have any opinion on current events. So I thought the best way to strike up conversation would be to bring up a discussion based on religion.

Fluffy, I'd argue your points about morality and marriage coming before religion. Organized religion has been around far longer than any of the mainstream monotheistic religions of today, and from what we're taught in our schools, the problems still arose. Your argument on morality can't really be made, since all sets of laws dating even back to Hammurabi's code are based on the religion of the time. As for your gay marriage statement, it seems a bit off to just suggest that people are "grossed out" by it. Why do you think that is? It's scientifically found to NOT be unnatural, and yet people are still grossed out by it. People don't like it because they are taught that it just isn't OK according to the general population. Until you're taught what "gay" means, you have no way of differentiating between gay and straight. But this has gotten off the original topic of discussion.

[Furore]

I've probably said this before somewhere, but I think organised religion can be quite beneficial if it has good aims and ideals and people actually follow them. In reality, most don't seem to conform to the ideals of the religion's founder to the extent any texts or teachings provide for, and even if a majority did, there's still a good chance of some other ****up like a misinterpretation or a couple hundred.

Most major religions tend to follow some lines I agree with completely such as no unneccesary killing, stealing etc, and most involved in those religions tend to seem to uphold those core values to some extent. But then on the downside, many seem to get shitty with certain factions opposing their views or just living in a way they'd see as 'immoral' even if it isn't hurting anyone. And then you have a few bad, bad fanatics who somehow manage to interpret fairly harmless seeming passages of texts to mean they should go do something negative.

So I'd see most organised religion as good or at the least somewhat useful, yet sometimes being the motivator or trigger for some of humanity's darker acts.

[Zargabaath]

When you have people believing in stuff that is not based on objectivity and in the realm of blind faith and subjectivity, tis a scary thought that they may be in leadership positions.

[Kaiser Dragoon]

I can't really tell what you're getting at here. Racism does not come from religion at all. It is a product of slavery.

Er, I have to interject, because, obviously, you're either mentally retarded, or have not a damn clue what you're talking about.

Now, before we all get in a pissing contest (yes, women too can participate), lets see what I am saying. Racism, itself, derives from the thousands of conflicts of "my religion is better than yours!" See: The Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, Etc.

Modern day philosophers insist that Racism only surfaced in the 1800's as a way to justify slavery (referring to them as "Sub-Human") but the "Aryan race" concept has been around for quite a long time(which reared it's ugly head during WWII with Hitler claiming that Blonde haired blue eye Germans were the "Aryan race").

If you were talking about >modern< racism, yeah, it stems from slavery, it's a habit picked up by the world at large though (I can't count how many times I've heard "stupid American"). Your point contradicts what M16 was talking about, thusly, your point isn't valid.

~Kaiser Dragoon

[Sasquatch]

Er, I have to interject, because, obviously, you're either mentally retarded, or have not a damn clue what you're talking about.

Watch it, kid. I'd bet quite the sum of money (as would Wechsler) that I'm smarter than you are -- that doesn't mean that everything you disagree with me on makes you "retarded".

Now, before we all get in a pissing contest (yes, women too can participate), lets see what I am saying. Racism, itself, derives from the thousands of conflicts of "my religion is better than yours!" See: The Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, Etc.

Racism comes from religion? No. Racism is completely independent of religion.

That's because racism is about -- get this -- race. Not about religion. Which is why you can be racist against somebody of the same religion.

You could refer to the Spanish Inquisition as having "religious prejudice", but not racial. You might have an argument for the Crusades, if not for the fact that they were about reclaiming land that was brutally invaded and ruled by people of another race and religion.

Modern day philosophers insist that Racism only surfaced in the 1800's as a way to justify slavery (referring to them as "Sub-Human")

First off, slavery -- in America -- existed before the 1800s. Second, slavery -- all over the world -- existed long, long before the 1800s. And third, there were slave owners and slaves of all races in America.

[Govinda]

Er, I have to interject, because, obviously, you're either mentally retarded, or have not a damn clue what you're talking about.

Now, before we all get in a pissing contest (yes, women too can participate), lets see what I am saying. Racism, itself, derives from the thousands of conflicts of "my religion is better than yours!" See: The Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, Etc.

Modern day philosophers insist that Racism only surfaced in the 1800's as a way to justify slavery (referring to them as "Sub-Human") but the "Aryan race" concept has been around for quite a long time(which reared it's ugly head during WWII with Hitler claiming that Blonde haired blue eye Germans were the "Aryan race").

If you were talking about >modern< racism, yeah, it stems from slavery, it's a habit picked up by the world at large though (I can't count how many times I've heard "stupid American"). Your point contradicts what M16 was talking about, thusly, your point isn't valid.

~Kaiser Dragoon

Yes, I obviously don't know what I'm talking about. It's not like I have qualifications in this shit and have studied it for years.

The Spanish Inquisition had precisely **** all to do with racism. Do you think they tortured only black people, or tortured black people because they were black? Hell no.

Similarly, the Crusades did not have anything to do with racism.

Racism was a product of slavery. It existed well before the 1800's. There were white slaves before there were black slaves - the difference was that black people couldn't blend into a crowd, and most if not all black people in the New World were slaves. They were different and could not hide it, and were of a lower class.

What in God's name do the Aryans and Hitler have to do with the creation of racism?

Modern racism? "Stupid American"? Oooh, right. You're talking about prejudice against people because of their ethnicity. That's a baby mistake. Go and take Social Science 101, and then return.

You caught me in a bad mood. My job does that to me increasingly.

[Clint]

Organized religion, although not necessarily beneficial to spirituality, has it's good points. Organized religions teach people what is acceptable as norms in society (they don't use the term "norms in society," but it's essentially the same thing.) Organized religion is also beneficial to drug addicts. Many times, drug addicts are weaned off of drugs through religion, and chronically going to church or temple, or wherever they go, helps them to maintain off of drugs. I'm for organized religion for those reasons, but I don't personally participate in any sort of organized religion, even though I'm part of one.

As for the racism topic, it sounds to me like M16 probably stated his words wrong. It's not so much racism which stems from religion, but rather, cultural bias. If you're in a religion, you're going to be labeled, and with labels comes stereotypes, and with stereotypes, comes discrimination. An example of this would be the stereotype that all Jews are cheap and end up going to law school.

[Pete]

I think that the only connection that slavery and religion have with each other, at least in America, is that religion was used as a means to keep the slaves from rebelling or from being lazy and therefore uneconomical.

Slavers would teach the slaves all about Jesus and Heaven, and would drill into them the idea that they need to be "good slaves" in order to get to Heaven. This means only working, working and more working. It would also be a means to deter running away, because clearly, "good slaves" don't run away.

That's the closest religion gets to slavery. The evidence of this is still present in Black Baptist churches in the South, where you can see how devout the members of the congregations are.

As for organized religion, I don't think it's good or bad; it's just a way of worshiping whatever God you see fit, if any. It's only when people begin to say that certain religions or gods are no good, then problems clearly arise.

And for the record, modern day philosophy is largely bullshit. Any current collegiate program offering philosophy is usually chock full of stoners. Racism did not start with Hitler. The idea of the Aryan race and the ideal as the blond with blue eyes, yes; not the whole racism deal though.

Racism is largely the fear of differences. The Native Americans were called savages by the European settlers. Is that not racist? There's solid evidence that Native Americans had governments and complex societies, but because they were red in color, and wore animal skins instead of woven clothes, they were considered savage. That's pretty racist.

And I can see why the stupid American comments would be directed towards you. Ignorance is often confused with stupidity. Perennial ignorance would be stupidity.

[Kaiser Dragoon]

The way I see it, if I am not mistaken, this is a conversation between the link of racism and the church. I was providing "ethnicity" (because, believe it or not, THAT is what determines race, I can be racist to an Asain as fast as a Black person). Then there is the whole "Jew" or "rag head" concept.. that isn't being racist at all you know, thinking your religion is better than theirs by making snide generalizations about their religions.

I was wrong on one point though. I thought you were referring to the American etc slave trade routes (and still partially do because you refer to "blacks" more than one time in BOTH posts). I apologize for that misconception (if it truly is one).

~Kaiser Dragoon

Because I don't feel like bumping this thread anymore, I will edit this one and be done with it.

"The way I see it, if I am not mistaken, this is a conversation between the link of racism and the church" I say again. Are you all implying there is no link between the two?

[Sasquatch]

Then there is the whole "Jew" or "rag head" concept.. that isn't being racist at all you know, thinking your religion is better than theirs by making snide generalizations about their religions.

"Jew" (usually) and "raghead" -- when used as insults -- aren't about religions. They're about ethnic Jews and Arabs. Which may be racist, but has nothing to do with religion.

I was wrong on one point though. I thought you were referring to the American etc slave trade routes (and still partially do because you refer to "blacks" more than one time in BOTH posts).

Were Americans the only people to trade black slaves?

Racism in America was enhanced by 19th Century slavery, and vice-versa. But both existed long before -- seperately, as well as together.

[RamesesII]

Ha religion don't make me laugh. The main causes of war Religion and Money/power both one in the same actually power can fall into the religion category as power as well.

Just touching on the slavery said earlier in the thread, slavery was well before the 1800's look at the egyptians one of the earliest form of religions before the birth of christ. The Egyptians use to use the sudanese or what was called Nubia and the nubians as their slaves it had nothing to do with racism just the pure fact that they were a weaker race just as the Persians were. The Egytians were a stuck up bloody race they had their typical pyrimidal heirachy Pharoah, Vizers, Preists and nobles, scribes, craftsman and then peasants and slaves. Put simply the egyptians used the weaker races or people as their slaves including the sudanese,persians and their own kind to do their bidding. The main reason sudanese were used as slaves is because the egyptians loved their gold and sudan was a big mine of it hence the name Nubia, Nub meaning gold in egyptian and they just to god dam lazy making slaves of the local people to mine it out for them. They were a selfish race and never dirtied their own hands from the preists upwards to the pharoah. Their slavery had nothing to do with racism it was purely there because someone had to do the dirty work. As far as their religion goes they were heavily religous to their gods yes more than one they had a god representing most things from the all mighty Ra the sun god the egyptians worshipped the sun they believed the sun was an all powerful entity, it was the main god i suppose you could say followed by the others Horus, Anubis,Sobek, etc in fact the story of Jesus christ is sort of another version of the story of horus. I could go on forever but the main point religion is all branched from the one thing all starting with the egyptians, beleive it or not Amun-ra who was worshipped as the creator lives on today many words come from his name including Amen at the end of prayer ammonia and all the chemicals similar and even parts of the brain are named after him the greeks saw Amun-Ra as another version of Zeus any way the story of jesus is similar to that of horus the ancient sun cult the Amun-ra cult lived on for many years as the free masons hence the little pyramid on the american bill although the freemasons believed in diverse religous backgrounds including Hinduism, Islam and christianty. What about the obelisk a strong egyptian symbol one of which is in washington egyptian religion is still around and always will be.

[iLinki]

I think religion is useful institution for controlling the masses. they say 'act bad and you'll burn for all eternity.' It is also useful for those who always need something to believe in, some form of hope to keep them moving.
Unfortunately within Christianity, the largest religion in the world, most believe you can do bad before you die and then at the last moment, repent, and have your soul saved. Since a lot of people believe this, they will just go off and do what they want until then.
Also religion is good since other people may feel they have something in common with you and you have lots of support.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but most followers of the bible get offended when you mention the impossibility of Jesus being white, no?

Most white people get offended when you claim Jesus is black, and SOME Black people get offended when others claim that Jesus was white. And yeah, that can spark tensions.
Most of the time, the captors claim that they have the right to enslave other peoples because their god/gods are superior, and therefore the other people are inferior and should be slaves to them.

[Furore]

Most white people get offended when you claim Jesus is black, and SOME Black people get offended when others claim that Jesus was white. And yeah, that can spark tensions.

I always figured he'd be of Middle Eastern appearance rather than black or white. Possibly albino I guess, but someone probably would have remarked on it if he was.

Most of the time, the captors claim that they have the right to enslave other peoples because their god/gods are superior, and therefore the other people are inferior and should be slaves to them.

I don't know that I'd word it quite like that, but I do agree in a way. Much of the negative effects stemming from religion are seen through adherants trying to impose their beliefs on others. It's not limited to religion neither though. 'Civilised' cultures for example have tried to tame 'savage' cultures, and have often really ****ed them over through superior weaponry and the like. Religion may have been a factor in some of those cases, yes, but it's certainly not limited to religion alone.