A lack of confrontation on TFF

[Meier Link]

Ok to start off I have decided to put this in ID because I really am tired of spam responses that I get from GC. Also it seems more fit for this section, please move it if you disagree. Also I want to throw in a disclaimer, this is not ment to be pointed directly at anyone at all. Just observations that I have noticed over the last few months.

I have been noticing a trend on TFF and that is that daily user activity is steadily dropping, older members are leaving and registrations are dropping also. I can see this being caused by a few different factors.

1: Post educate is mildly pore. (Another reason I decided to post this in ID, but a different matter at the same time.)

2: New releases to the FF universe are few and far between. I can see this problem resolving itself as XIII and all of its spin off drawing closer to its release date.

3: People bitching saying the “forum is dead” in multiple threads, this contributes to possible new members being turned away, and instills a thought into everyone’s head that it might be true. This forum is not dead by any means. Sure the post counts have dropped but this site is still active and has a good chance for full recovery and them some. Try visiting some of the other FF forums out there. I mod on 2 different ones and they have an average post count of 3-4 a month.

4: A severe lack of confrontation.

I will expand on number four seeing I think this could be one of the larger factors as to why activity has dropped.

Out side of a few members of this forum, there is very little controversy. People are more adamant to please then upset another member in fear that they might become “unliked” among the other users. They will quickly agree even if they don’t fully agree with what is being said instead of expanding on the differences in opinions.

Any other forms of confrontation are also shut down quickly and discarded making things very one sided. There have been multiple attempts to try and start some kinds of controversy and they all are dismissed in the blink of an eye.

To me this draws away from the fun that could be had at a forum and basically makes every one out to be clones. The responses I have seen lately in the forum are generic responses from fan boys that too are one sided and leave no room for discussion or debate.

Also I have noticed that when someone says something that is deemed “out of line” they are shot down and treated as an outcast by not only staff (at times) but also other forum members. I find this ridiculous. What is the point in having a discussion on a topic if a person can’t freely express their selves to the fullest degree???

With a tight rope there is little room for fun to be had, and isn’t that part of the reason that people come to this forum is to get away for a little while and have some fun? I know it is part of the reason that I come here myself, even though I find myself starting to lurk more often.

Now before this is taken the wrong way; I am not saying that people should be allowed to fight amongst the forum and if you have taken it that way you are incorrect. I am just saying that certain types of confrentation can be good, they can incite conversation, intrest, and all together raise daily posting of members.

It has been a while since I have seen a thread that actually sparked a heated debate amonst members, with the exception a very very limited few.
Most of what I have seen as of late are either lame spamming attempts, post whoring, or fan boyisims.

So I will stop my rant now because I want to see some of the others opinions before I carry on any further.

So please, discuss.

[Rocky]

Ok to start off I have decided to put this in ID because I really am tired of spam responses that I get from GC. Also it seems more fit for this section, please move it if you disagree. Also I want to throw in a disclaimer, this is not ment to be pointed directly at anyone at all. Just observations that I have noticed over the last few months.

I have been noticing a trend on TFF and that is that daily user activity is steadily dropping, older members are leaving and registrations are dropping also. I can see this being caused by a few different factors.

1: Post educate is mildly pore. (Another reason I decided to post this in ID, but a different matter at the same time.)

2: New releases to the FF universe are few and far between. I can see this problem resolving itself as XIII and all of its spin off drawing closer to its release date.

3: People bitching saying the “forum is dead” in multiple threads, this contributes to possible new members being turned away, and instills a thought into everyone’s head that it might be true. This forum is not dead by any means. Sure the post counts have dropped but this site is still active and has a good chance for full recovery and them some. Try visiting some of the other FF forums out there. I mod on 2 different ones and they have an average post count of 3-4 a month.

4: A severe lack of confrontation.

I will expand on number four seeing I think this could be one of the larger factors as to why activity has dropped.

Out side of a few members of this forum, there is very little controversy. People are more adamant to please then upset another member in fear that they might become “unliked” among the other users. They will quickly agree even if they don’t fully agree with what is being said instead of expanding on the differences in opinions.

Any other forms of confrontation are also shut down quickly and discarded making things very one sided. There have been multiple attempts to try and start some kinds of controversy and they all are dismissed in the blink of an eye.

To me this draws away from the fun that could be had at a forum and basically makes every one out to be clones. The responses I have seen lately in the forum are generic responses from fan boys that too are one sided and leave no room for discussion or debate.

Also I have noticed that when someone says something that is deemed “out of line” they are shot down and treated as an outcast by not only staff (at times) but also other forum members. I find this ridiculous. What is the point in having a discussion on a topic if a person can’t freely express their selves to the fullest degree???

With a tight rope there is little room for fun to be had, and isn’t that part of the reason that people come to this forum is to get away for a little while and have some fun? I know it is part of the reason that I come here myself, even though I find myself starting to lurk more often.

Now before this is taken the wrong way; I am not saying that people should be allowed to fight amongst the forum and if you have taken it that way you are incorrect. I am just saying that certain types of confrentation can be good, they can incite conversation, intrest, and all together raise daily posting of members.

It has been a while since I have seen a thread that actually sparked a heated debate amonst members, with the exception a very very limited few.
Most of what I have seen as of late are either lame spamming attempts, post whoring, or fan boyisims.

So I will stop my rant now because I want to see some of the others opinions before I carry on any further.

So please, discuss.

I think it would be better if this was placed in the Shinra forum so the nooblets wouldn't try to make a half-ass response, but that's just me.

In accordance to my response to your post, I must say Meier Link that I am sadly seeing the same things that you are. However in the same essence I feel that a forum lives in the same manner of it's inhabitants and since the people can literally come and go on the forums in the blink of an eye, things will even itself out eventually. All the same, I will give my opinions on your thoughts and how I feel about the situation.

1. It seems with the recent influx of new "dominant" members of TFF, many feel confused with the concept of a forum and a chatroom. Now, I for one don't place full blame on them, after all TFF was my first forum that I have ever joined. In the same token, I felt that I was a 'respectful' newb that gave credit where due, and that I did my fair share of lurking on how the forum worked before attempting to post in it. Also, I knew that in certain ways, a forum had some similarities with it and a semi-offical document, like a paper or an assignment of sorts. In order to be taken seriously, one had to follow the proper format and attempt to use structure where due. I feel that some people need to understand this better. Now, what to do about this? If we as a forum become strict about post quality, it will drive away prospects of TFF, as well as purging certain members of existence here in TFFland, and there will be a greater rift in 'elitism' between the newer members and the older. However, if nothing is done, then this will cause the older members to be less enthusiastic about coming back and posting, so in either sense people will be isolated. There will be blood. I guess I was just throwing some points there to think about both sides of the situation, anyways moving on..

2. Meier pretty much nailed this one on the forehead. Final Fantasy Dissidia, FF Versus XIII, and FFXIII, which are all highly anticipated games, will be releaed in a relatively short period of time, and with that, new information and content will be released into the land of TFF and more threads, topics, etc will be at hand.

3. I believe this is more of a mind-over-matter situation, that if one really believes that a forum is dead, then it is. If people wish to recuisitate the forum, then they need to be active. Seeing interesting topics and seeing people being active encourages activity, so others will become active and so on. And likewise vice versa. The whole "forum is dead" is just a bandwagon ploy of saying that one is not interested in the forum currently and that he/she is saying this out loud for a variety of reasons, ranging from a cry for attention to a hope of agreeance/acceptance from others. Don't hop on the bandwagon, follow your own path.

4. An interesting and complicated point, however I will have to break it down a bit since there is so much to cover.

Meier Link, I fully agree with you that there is little controversy going on at TFF at the moment. Now as for controversy, I find it to be a double-edged sword. On one hand, it gets people not only involved into something, but it gets them emotionally attached to the situation, which causes people to put in effort and truth to what they are saying. On the other end of the blade, people's feelings can get hurt, and people can end up quitting tff "FOR-EV-UR" as quoted straight from The Sandlot. Now in my opinion, I think there needs to be more confrontation and people need to be more at ease with expressing a difference in opinion. Also, I think that some people need to grow up on the forums, and I'm not just talking about members that are still considered minors, either. Get some thicker skin, because to put it blunt, in the real world shit happens. There are going to be people that you will not get along with or agree with in the slightest, and they could end up being your employer or client. Deal with it, don't make a scene (unless you're trying to promote TFF activity by calling people out, then by all means go for it lol), and move on. Now, as for people agreeing with others just because of forum status? There is truth to this, as I have witnessed firsthand. Go to the thread about chocobos in FFX if you need proof. I also think that mods go a little too far to stop confrontations before they even start. People need to chill the hell out and realize that this is the internet, which is as far from serious business as it gets. I understand that mods need to make sure that people can stay on topic and not have threads railroaded into obscurity, but in the same token I feel that throughout the years that I have been a member of TFF, they have been mostly conservative in their moderation role and have at times stopped topics where there may have been a side discussion that could lead to a new realization to the topic at hand. Also, I feel that it is not the mods' job to make everyone hold hands and sing kumbyah together, which is what I have been seeing as of late. I think with everything that I have mentioned above in combination has left the members constricted in a way to post because of the belief that they may post something that is seen as controversial and will be discontinued, and I think it is the members' job to explore the opportunities, and in a way "see how far the rabbit hole goes." After all, I think that it is up to the members to create growth, and the mods to maintain it.

I think a fifth reason should be in order as well.

5. The current time of the year.

Once summer hits, I have a feeling that there will be a greater quantity of members, both new and old, posting on the forums. It seems once that time occurs, the free time for many widens and people will be more inclined to be active.

[Furore]

Out side of a few members of this forum, there is very little controversy. People are more adamant to please then upset another member in fear that they might become “unliked” among the other users. They will quickly agree even if they don’t fully agree with what is being said instead of expanding on the differences in opinions.

See, that's where I don't personally give a shit and I feel on some level that bugs some other members to no end.

My miraculous secret? Other friends elsewhere and a few other forums I joined when there was some inactivity here. Oh I'll always be around, but it's getting to the point where fewer and fewer people seem to know all that much about me. Regular posters anyways.

I'm like a lingering fart and only a few members seem to love the fragrance. But damn do I love those people.

[Taco-Calamitous]

Y'know, I think that there is a little controversy around the forums. I think there are at least a small handful of members who make some just by posting, sometimes. These are the members that "don't give a shit;" the members who are "real." The problem is that, aside from a few exceptions, these people all seem to be friends, and very few other members are willing to confront these people with their own "controversy," because most people are too "nice," or unwilling to say something that might offend.

I personally am moving further away from the "let's be real!" camp, and more towards the "I'm going to watch what I say, and make sure that what I say isn't unnecessarily offensive." Sure, there are certain situations that call for saying something offensive to get your point across, but I find that the "let's be real!" camp almost seem to think that the time for it is all the time. At least certain members of that group. What I'm saying is, some people don't seem to understand the difference between simply being honest, and stepping over that line and being a douche bag. And I think that honestly, that is part of TFF's problem, and it drives people away.

I think people need to learn a happy medium between "let's play nice," and "let's be real!" Because in real life, you aren't going to be "real!" all the time. If you are... I can't see that you have very many real life friends. Really, this brings to light an issue that the Crao Porr Cock8 members have brought up to one another: being yourself on the forums. Don't say things you wouldn't say to other people in real life. Don't "act tough" to impress people. If you are tough... whoah, good for you! I suppose there's no way for me to tell whether you're a "real!" tough guy or an internet tough guy.

I agree for the most part with the other things that have been said in this thread, but that was something I felt needs to be brought up. Particularly the "being real and being a douche bag" part. Anyhoo...

Wuv, Yer Mom

[Lunasa]

Without a doubt, I have to agree with you on some point, Meier.

Post etiquette isn't a large problem, though, because, half the drama that goes on around here springs from personal relationships outside of the forums or in private messages... The real problem is the location of where the issues are dragged, which they needlessly are being done to the forums. If you don't have anything nice to say on the boards, don't say it. If you have problem with what someone else says- bring it to them in private if it's that large of a matter. If you have a personal grudge against someone, be man enough to ignore them while you post on the boards. Boards are a public place. We don't need to witness personal squabbles.

And speaking of which, I want to bring up a huge matter: the introduction boards. They're ABUSED. I mean, if you're actually leaving for a good cause or need time off or whatever, it's fine. Though, for whatever reason, people post so much about they're leaving because they hate so and so or how they're misused or abused or some random drama. I look at the comments sometimes and I'm like: "Well, damn. If it was a forum matter to begin with, I saw nothing about it on the boards. Why bring it up now?" Personally, if this all started on MSN, please leave it there. if you don't like the people you were talking to on there, use the ignore button. Boom- They're gone. The same concept works on the boards. If you honestly hate someone so much to leave a board(especially since boards consist of hundreds of people, not one), use the ignore button. You won't see a soul.

As for the releases in Final Fantasies, hopefully another is released soon. It's a damn shame that XII didn't have more popularity. Though, I joined a similar forum that enacted a "Square-Enix" forum to placate the huge gap between X and XII(since XI wasn't that popular on that board). It helped with discussing other square releases. I know we have a Kingdom Hearts board, but there are other worthwhile releases in the Square Enix department that could definitely warrant it own MAIN forum, rather than a measly sub-forum. Not to mention, they are scarcely overlooked sometimes in the jumble of threads in General Gaming.

And it's true. You can't expect a forum to stay alive if you keep calling it "dead" especially when there are at least 10 active members in the period of an hour.

As for confrontation, I'm a little seedy with you on that.The reason why there is such little conflict to begin with is because a lot of the drama here begins outside of the boards. Not to mention, confrontation is NOT meant to happen on a public board. If there is an issue with something, sure it's okay to bring it up- that's why the feedback forum exists. However, member to member issues are supposed to be a mediated by staff so that it doesn't become a huge problem, not played out until it does.

Another board I visited had a conflict mediation sort of board as well. Members would bring up issues they have with other members and staff members would be like a sort of third party to help resolve issues. I think since the forum is rather drama-less compared to a lot of other boards I've been on, so it would be beneficial. However, these were the rules, which, granted, are pretty strict, but on that type of forum you can't expect to take any shit whatsoever.

Welcome to the Peer/Staff Conflict Mediation boards!

Board Rules and Regulations:

1. All regular forum rules are applied in this forum. This means no flaming, spamming, baiting, etc. Granted, two opposing parties will be mad at each other, but the first step to solving any issue is to address each other with civil tones. If there is a failure to do this, guilty parties will be punished with warnings.

2. This board hosts forum related incidents only. If you have an issue with another member in general, please discuss it off the boards. Furthermore, this does not encourage you to make it a forum issue, either. Any threads(in any forum) deliberately saying something along the lines "So and So is a d*uche" will result in an instant week-long ban and immediate closure of thread. If offenses continue to stack, expect the punishments to do so as well.

3. Constructive criticism only. No flames. No spam. No taking sides. If you don't have an unbiased opinion, don't post at all. If you are a staff member and have some sort of involvement in the issue, step down and let another staff member take charge. Failure to adhere to this rule will result in a verbal warning to leave that issue thread. Like in rule two, offenses and punishments stack, including, but not limited to, a warning.

4. Creation Template. Include the two opposing parties and the issue in the title. For example: John and Jane; Flaming Issue. If there are several similar issues with the same parties, feel free to number them, date them, or something of the sort. Or perhaps be a bit more specific. Open up the thread with your issue in appropriate language and consideration.

5. Upon resolving the issue, the thread is closed. If either party wants it reopened for discussion, contact the mod or mods primarily involved with helping you solve it in the first place.

If there are any questions, feel free to contact a Staff Member.

As for time period, I agree. The summer will more than likely bring this place back to life. A lot of midwestern, southwestern, and south eastern schools have finals soon anyways. College students alike.

[Govinda]

I think people need to learn a happy medium between "let's play nice," and "let's be real!" Because in real life, you aren't going to be "real!" all the time. If you are... I can't see that you have very many real life friends. Really, this brings to light an issue that the Crao Porr Cock8 members have brought up to one another: being yourself on the forums. Don't say things you wouldn't say to other people in real life. Don't "act tough" to impress people. If you are tough... whoah, good for you! I suppose there's no way for me to tell whether you're a "real!" tough guy or an internet tough guy.

I agree for the most part with the other things that have been said in this thread, but that was something I felt needs to be brought up. Particularly the "being real and being a douche bag" part. Anyhoo...

Wuv, Yer Mom

See, there's a problem here. People (read: me) can't be a total arse in reality because if I/we did, we wouldn't have any friends. On Facebook I am a nice person. On TFF I am a bit of a ****. To me, it doesn't matter.

I like a good fight, a good bit of drama. It gives me a reason to log on and read some stuff. I agree with Meier in that there is not enough confrontation.

I mean, the last time I had a proper go at disagreeing with someone was with Egon Spengler in a thread about suicide. He left me a nasty rep, but didn't respond to my post. He responded to others, but not mine. I apparently offended him to the point where he wouldn't give my post the credence that he gave others, even though I thought my points were valid in relation to the discussion at hand.

And then there was the whole thing with Phantom. I disagreed, and he told me I was the reason that people dislike gays. I objected to that, and he left.

People give up far too easily. I'm not saying that TFF should be DRAMACENTRAL OMG; it's just that people responding, bouncing backwards and forwards and maybe learning something, is what keeps a forum going.

The new members may have a dodgy grasp of English, but they're largely okay, and I think they're good for the forums. One of them, Fate, made a post about smoking that I disagreed with. He didn't leave it; he responded and we had a little bit of discussion. He didn't call me a **** at any point, which I liked. A polite young man. But he was the only one to respond. Not to blow my own trumpet, but my post count is big enough and I've been here for a while. He wasn't scared to disagree.

However, I think TFF's problem reaches beyond a lack of confrontation. This place suffers, and I mean really suffers, from a lack of HUMOUR. Remember Strong Bad? He was a funny guy, he could be light-hearted, he could take a glib statement and not cry about it. He could make fun threads about fun things. I'm sure there were others like him, and as I am led to believe, the forums were a lot more active a few years ago when he and his ilk were the most active posters.

Yes, there is a difference between a forum and a chatroom. I post a lot of one-liners, and I'm pretty sure I only get away with it because the mods have known me for a while.

My message to the staff would be to lighten up a bit. I'm not saying that posting 'wel idk bt i tink suicides bad' is ok in ID or that 'i lyk cars most' in GC is neat either. But let a little light in, let a little humour in. I have no clue as to how you should go about this. It would also have a lot to do with the general population of this place (a few excepted, of course) lightening up of their own accord, which probably really isn't going to happen. So, all in all, this part of this post has been pointless.

I have heard a lot of people say that TFF has something different to other places, and I would agree. Myself and others have no clue why we return, and yet we do. It can't be blamed on mere habit; there must be another reason, one that we can't seem to define. But I won't lie, that reason is fading. I barely post these days. There's just not a lot left to say, and not a lot of ways in which to object which wouldn't either involve an essay or a warning.

Maybe we should give people something to cling to. Nationalism is always the resort of failing governments; why shouldn't TFF try something similar? Give the newbies something to cling to and come back to, something to say they're a part of. Then when the Oldies insult it they'll defend it, and we'll have the kind of discussion that TFF doesn't have at the moment. And we could even let a few jokes in! A campaign! A side to stick to, an internet-based cause to champion.

TFF 09: NO WE CAN'T!

Okay, so I'm on the Blue Team. Who wants to go Red Team? Or should we be Power Rangers?

Seriously, if there's a cornerstone in the Troubled Government/Forum Manual, it's 'Chapter One: Nationalism and Pointless Wars Against Barely Defined Enemies'. Helps the home economy too. Should we? Or maybe just some kind of event to energise the base?

[Taco-Calamitous]

For me, it's hard to tell when someone is trying to be funny, and when they're just being plain arrogant and ass holishy on the internet. Maybe I should know better with some people, but I know that I have gotten pissed off or offended by things in the recent past that I probably should not have let bother me. Then again, I find that if I pretend something didn't bother me when it actually did, and I don't say anything about it, the bitter feelings stay in the back of my mind and build up with each time I get pissed off about something that same person says, until I've blown up on them (and it doesn't even have to have been directed at me; could've been at someone I liked, or a general statement that I took offense to, for whatever reason) That's not really healthy, so I've taken to sniping back every once in a while when I feel like I've been sniped at.

I agree that people probably should learn to lighten up a little, including myself. That comes with understanding where the other person is coming from, though. Myself, I am still trying to find the happy medium between giving a damn and not giving a damn, because I don't think I can completely not give a damn; it's pretty much impossible for me. I will get behind your "TFF: NO WE CAN'T!" campaign slogan, however. That's pretty awesome. Anyhoo...

Wuv, Yer Mom

[Marceil]

-edit- I want you to realize that just because I'm not quoting and just because I happen to be posting after you 'Hellfire' that I'm not directing any of the following statements at you alone.
I don't know you .. or any of you because I left here about 4 years ago. -fin-

I keep coming back hoping for change... I would like to see the community Joking around perhaps?
Making newbies feel like they're welcome -- encourage them to stay?

But no ... sadly I see everyone is still addicted to the quote button and has to slice and dissect every syllable in every line.
With a mod around the corner to attack anything that resembles the elusive "spam monster"

and Yes all of you badly need humor in your lives!

What is it that makes all of you so incredibly old? I mean that in a mental sense of course.
Obviously none of you are technically old.
This place reminds me of a bunch of grumpy old men and women snapping at each other like vipers in a bingo ball cage.

It's sad a depressing and makes everyone want to run -- far far away.

I would be interested in coming back more often .. .if only it felt like I belonged somewhere.
It doesn't feel homey at all here ... it's more like a jail

[Govinda]

For me, it's hard to tell when someone is trying to be funny, and when they're just being plain arrogant and ass holishy on the internet. Maybe I should know better with some people, but I know that I have gotten pissed off or offended by things in the recent past that I probably should not have let bother me. Then again, I find that if I pretend something didn't bother me when it actually did, and I don't say anything about it, the bitter feelings stay in the back of my mind and build up with each time I get pissed off about something that same person says, until I've blown up on them (and it doesn't even have to have been directed at me; could've been at someone I liked, or a general statement that I took offense to, for whatever reason) That's not really healthy, so I've taken to sniping back every once in a while when I feel like I've been sniped at.

I agree that people probably should learn to lighten up a little, including myself. That comes with understanding where the other person is coming from, though. Myself, I am still trying to find the happy medium between giving a damn and not giving a damn, because I don't think I can completely not give a damn; it's pretty much impossible for me. I will get behind your "TFF: NO WE CAN'T!" campaign slogan, however. That's pretty awesome. Anyhoo...

Wuv, Yer Mom

Believe it or not, that post was me trying to be Genuinely Constructive. I'll admit that I don't rule at it, but I was trying not to be an asshole. It's hard sometimes.

[OceanEyes28]

When all else fails, blame the mods, yes? Though I do agree we are lacking in humor. But WAIT ONE SECOND, ****ERS! There's nothing humorous to respond to, how 'bout THAT? I blame the members. Boring. And when you guys break the rules to try and be funny, IT STINKS and it makes me laugh more to close and delete your shit.

You're right, this is so much better.

[Marceil]

ah well .. I didn't say it should be ruleless.

I just don't think everywhere should be so strict.
Isn't there somewhere in here that the spammers can go and vent?
A special part of the forum made just for them -- and then anyone who enters there should just assume that all is satire.

[Victoria]

Well see, we used to have that, but not anymore. It got way out of hand and it's way way too difficult to moderate. That's why we don't tolerate spam threads anymore.

[Marceil]

Really O.o they couldn't even handle a thread?

I don't know what to tell you then. It's hard to imagine... not having a spam spot.
I'm a mod of another forum where we purposely have a whole sub-forum dedicated to spam and nonsense.

It's part of what I oversee ... I rarely leave that section -- so it's hard for me to imagine a place without it completely.

In fact I spend 80% of my time in a section of FanClubs dedicated to our own members.
It's like visiting people around a village only in virtual internet mode, and ends up looking like a chat box only it's not live -- it's a message board the same as this one.

[Victoria]

Dude, you're underestimating our old spam threads. It was like a chatbox it went so fast. There were like over 1000 posts a day.

You think it's easy to moderate? Hell no.

But anyway, enough of detracting the topic at hand. This topic isn't about the spam threads. It's about the lack of activity and confrontation in the forum.

I personally do see the uptightness of the staff when it comes to confrontations. Every slight argument is nipped in the bud because the staff doesn't want anyone's feelings hurt. Which is a good reason to do it.

But at the same time, Lunasa and Rocky pretty much said everything I wanted to say.

[Meier Link]

Actually Marciel your argument is kind of null and void, there is a section of this forum that is dedicated to crap posts and spamish responces which I choose to dwell in often. It is called word games and humor, been here for ages and will probably stay that way for a while. There are alot of members new and old that spend alot of time in that area.

As for the mods being up tight around here I would have to disagree, they are actually pretty lax but then again, how would you really know seeing that you "left here about 4 years ago."

As for people being uptight there are members like that any and every forum, and don't try to lie to yourself and say that there is not. It happens.

As for humor I could agree that there could be more comical moments around here but then again reiterating what I said in my OP, people are afraid to step on toes around here.

Ally, I must say that your post is halarious, then again that is my morbid sence of humor coming out and getting the best of me, a very good use of the main topic at hand. And a mighty fine example to aid in proving the point of this thread, even if it was unintended.

[Fluffy]

My opinion is that the forum in general was far more active before this.

This was also an even bigger problem with the spam thread. Some people come on here and post there anywhere from (random figures, but might be accurate) 80-100% of the time, depending on the person. In my opinion that's a waste in terms of forum activity. The forum is active. Most of the activity is going in there.

At the same time, I don't agree with letting people get away with spam and stuff in other sections. I'm very "all or nothing" about a lot of things. Spam is one of them. If you let one person get away with it, you should let everyone get away with it. Of course, I wouldn't want to come to a forum where spam is all over the place. So I say zero tolerance.

The same goes for all of the other rules. There's nothing I hate more than to see one person get away with something while another can't get away with the same thing.

Also, I think the only reason why people say that the forum is dead is because they don't care enough to resuscitate it. They come here, see that it's dead, and move on. They have better things to do, most likely.

I know for a fact the main section here I care to check for is dead, or at least gasping for air.

P.S. This place is dead.

[Marceil]

I believe I've found examples of what I'm trying to explain.
You know the messages that any user can leave in peoples profiles? That is the kind of conversation or short (spam) messages that I'm used to seeing in fanclub type threads.

These other threads must have been something different -- and the result sounds horrifying.
1000 posts in a day?!? I wouldn't wish that sort of responsibility on anyone.

My absence is not really because of the lack of activity here or and grievance ...
I've become busy with life outside of the internet.
I do notice more technical glitches with this forum than with others.
What happened last night? All of a sudden the page was blank around 9 pm and was still missing at 3 am?

Well anyway, I'm not really arguing a point - only offering suggestions as to how to build a more friendly community.
It only works if the members what it of course.
It's not possible to persuade people into acting civil all the time.
That's something the individual has to decide for themselves

[Pete]

There are several problems with this board, and if I don't get hungry and grab some food, I'll address them all.

1. The Britain Effect.
2. Word Games
3. Everyone's Hissy Fits
4. Lack of Thought
5. Lack of Self

1. The Britain Effect.

People on this site are so afraid of offending anyone with their opinions anymore. Nobody just says what's on their mind and everyone is too afraid to be the person to call it as it is. This is bullshit. It's the internet, who gives a shit if someone's feelings are hurt by a posting on a message board? It's one thing to flame and to go after another person, because just digging into someone else isn't cool, but if someone sets themselves up to look like an ass, then by all means you take the shot.

But no, we can't go and offend so and so, because they're sensitive about this or that and if we do that then they'll leave. The trick to anything, ANYTHING in dealing with people, is not to give anyone a reason to dig at you and to never expose any weaknesses. You can't hit what you can't see. But that's neither here nor there, I suppose. The main issue is that people need to toughen up just a little bit. In life you're not gonna always deal with happy go lucky people who always have a kind word and a smile. Some people are mean and some people will just say it like it is, without sugar coating it. It's up to the individual member to be able to deal with that. That being said, it also lies in the moderator's hands to make sure a little ribbing doesn't turn into a full blown flaming fest. Yet, the member has the responsibility of defending themselves and also letting the mods know whats up.

Also, whatever happens outside of TFF is off limits. Period, end of story. The mods are only responsible for that happens on the boards. If people take something outside of the boards, then they have no control over it. Sorry, but that's a fact. If I were a police officer for NY State, I would not have any jurisdiction in New Jersey or Pennsylvania, even though crimes may be committed there. If something happens on TFF, a mod can intervene; on AIM or MSN, no such luck.

2. Word Games

This is the dumbest forum ever. All it does is breed spam and spammers. I'm not saying that everyone who posts there is a spammer, but there are clearly some members who make it a point not to spend time anywhere else on the boards. It also takes away from Gen Chat, since most of the bullshit topics are put into there. The entire purpose of Gen Chat was for the random bullshit that wouldn't go anywhere else, but Word Games ruined it by taking away from Gen Chat. This also leads to some form of disparity and a rift in the members. A lot of the older members feel that Word Games is bullshit and a thinly veiled spam forum. We also happen to come from the school of thought that spam is just crap messages, with no purpose.

However, somewhere down the line in the long history of TFF, we got all retarded and had to define exactly what spam was. Long story short, spam is a nonsense message that contributes absolutely nothing. It's not a one liner, because one liners can indeed contribute to a conversation.

3. Hissy Fits

Leave, don't leave. Come back, don't come back. Half the people who pull this shit are people nobody really knows and therefore it shouldn't matter what you're doing. There's also no need to air out dirty laundry when leaving; chances are most people won't care and you won't really be missed all that much. And when I say most people or nobody, I really mean me. Just leave the drama for the actors.

4. The Lack of Thought

Is it just me, or is it getting harder and harder to converse intelligently with people on this site? I don't even mean in ID, where an IQ test should be required, but even in the FF boards and Gen Chat. I know some people don't think before they speak, but this is just a little different. There's an almost infinite time limit to come up with an intelligent response, or at least a witty one. So, I urge everyone to use that to formulate some thoughts before just typing.

5. Lack of Self

This bothers me most of all. It seems that a lot of people here can't just be themselves. Things either come off as super ridiculous sounding or straight out of the mouth of a fanboy/girl. Now I do understand that this is a videogame forum, but still. I don't know why is seems difficult to just be yourself and to simply just be honest with everyone. It's cool to be a fan of whatever character you like, but to defend them to death is beyond extreme; it's "go seek professional help" extreme. Now, if you legit think that you are Cloud, then God bless ya, but please, get that prescription filled.




I also have to agree with everything Meier and Rocky said. They are some smart fellas.

[Victoria]

You know the messages that any user can leave in peoples profiles? That is the kind of conversation or short (spam) messages that I'm used to seeing in fanclub type threads.

These other threads must have been something different -- and the result sounds horrifying.
1000 posts in a day?!? I wouldn't wish that sort of responsibility on anyone.

Well, I may have exaggerated a little bit. Maybe a few hundred posts per day?
And the spam thread existed BEFORE visitor messages. So...wrap that around your head a little.

Also, I agree with Pete. But wait, I'm one of those few who call things as they are, and I get in trouble for it. =\

It's not like I'm breaking the rules, I'm just... not being very considerate. ^^;

Either way. This place needs a huge makeover.

[Secret Weapon]

I would like to input on this too because even with you making a post/comment about this Meier, I've seen this kind of stuff take effect on here.

The main reason I joined TFF was because of the debates/quarrels/perspectives of other members knowledge of FF. I've played more then a healthy amount of the series (I,II,III,IV,VII,VIII,IX,X,XII, and Tactics DS ) & I would have to say that FF is the reason why I stick only to the RPG platform because it has more of a twist to it then the others.

In future reference to my post, I don't blame the MOD's (seriously I don't want to be RUB-ed ) but the main reason why TFF is losing post counts & having older members stray from the site NUMEROUS times is because we don't really have the flexibility to voice our knowledge & opinions nor the effort to put up some decent posts that have debate behind it. I STILL put up & make posts that stirr up SOMETHING & I try to talk between my TFF family here when they do log in.

I kinda go with Oceaneyes28 on this one, most members here just make accounts to support FF & feel apart of something. WHICH is good but to me, that's not what TFF is all comprised of. I'm a member on here simply because FF has helped me in personal affairs & I want to share & hasten those morales to those who have yet to see them. Not so much as attempting to make them as committed to it/this as I am but to give that encouragement.

Committment is what I feel is needed out of the new members. I've been here for about 2 and half years so yeah, SOMETHING has to be done because to a certain sense where someone comes on here & makes an account (for whatever reason) & their satisfaction is turned off in effect whatever they did want to join & "participate" doesn't come back or deletes their account kinda pisses me off. I think this should be handled by a group discussion of ideas/suggestions. This can't be rode out... only makeovered.

[Unknown Entity]

Most older members leave because something has happened in the real world, or on here. Remember that time when one member said something rude to another, and the VM boxes turned into a war zone? Then there were about 4 or 5 leaving threads in a matter of days because of it? Kind of funny when you think of it, but lots of people endded up hurt.

1: Post educate is mildly pore. (Another reason I decided to post this in ID, but a different matter at the same time.)

2: New releases to the FF universe are few and far between. I can see this problem resolving itself as XIII and all of its spin off drawing closer to its release date.

3: People bitching saying the “forum is dead” in multiple threads, this contributes to possible new members being turned away, and instills a thought into everyone’s head that it might be true. This forum is not dead by any means. Sure the post counts have dropped but this site is still active and has a good chance for full recovery and them some. Try visiting some of the other FF forums out there. I mod on 2 different ones and they have an average post count of 3-4 a month.

4: A severe lack of confrontation.

I completely agree with Meier on this one. Well, not just the above - ALL the points he did make in his post.

Unfortunatly, you can't turn around to a total noob and/or txt speak whore, and tell them that you would appreciate their posts more if they typed in normal english, or put in more length to their posts. They'll turn around and say: "Bt dey iz bullying moi! Warn dem, peaz!", and before you know it you've got a whole bunch of the nooish people spamming your VM and PM, telling you what a grumpy ****er you are. I've seen it happen, and I've been involved (on both the "grumpy ****er" and noob side).

Final Fantasy, forgive me if I'm wrong hasn't been all the big of late, and even I've been sick to death of replying all the old stuff. Excpet FFVII, which I'll never tire of, but that strays far from the point. And I hate to say it, but one day Final Fantasy will have to develop it's final game. Either because this day and ages dies out, or the people behind FF move onto bigger and better things, or demand isn't high enough for more games, or... anything can happen, and yes it is sad. It will pick up again though, I'm sure. This time last year when I joined, there were many a member online at any given time, and it was rare I stared at an empty forum.

People who bitch about this forum being dead clearly haven't seen the state off all the other Final Fantasy forums I've been on. Some of these places are in such a state... it's almost like walking around Dalston nearby where I live, where just the kids (or noobs) rule the place. No sence of authority what-so-ever, and hardly anyone is on those anymore. A few dead-end joiners, but thats all it is. This site is ****ing fantastic for the moment on the activity side, compared with all the others.

Lack of confrontation... hate to budge, but I avoid it where needs be. I do sometimes have something to say about someone, but it's rare I do. My life was pretty quiet until I confronted some person who told me I have issues, and then I got a warning. Yeah, he got one too, and I'm not complaining, but you can't confront someone or be confronted without the fear of getting a warning for anything you say, which is pretty sucky. Also, if I had taken it to MSN, even though it started here, TFF once again avoids the confrontation bonus.

When all else fails, blame the mods, yes? Though I do agree we are lacking in humor. But WAIT ONE SECOND, ****ERS! There's nothing humorous to respond to, how 'bout THAT? I blame the members. Boring. And when you guys break the rules to try and be funny, IT STINKS and it makes me laugh more to close and delete your shit.

I blame the members too. Even myself. I'm losing lack of sleep because I feel everyone including me is a boring member, and tis site might... die. It's terrible. XD

But seriously, the mods aren't to be blamed. You guys are here to do a job, and it's a job that most of you do very well when you aren't rolling around in the joys of being able to bitch at people or warn people for the tiniest reasons. It's also true what you say about members breaking rules to be funny - it's not funny. Team Moron*cough-sorry-cough*Awesome who are actually members of the forum making multi-accounts to pick on and bully people who they don't like, I don't find all that funny. People starting up stupid threads (unless you are Govinda, because her ones ARE funny) about stupid issues which get stupid responses aren't funny either.

My opinion is that the forum in general was far more active before this.

This was also an even bigger problem with the spam thread. Some people come on here and post there anywhere from (random figures, but might be accurate) 80-100% of the time, depending on the person. In my opinion that's a waste in terms of forum activity. The forum is active. Most of the activity is going in there.

I've not been around as long as you have, but I'm going to be bold and I don't think thats entirely true. Yes, that place has been more active than everywhere else, but it is where people go when nothing else is going on in the forum. And thats the thing - NOTHING is going on anywhere anymore. If a new post springs up in the Fantasy threads, no one notices it because they are caught up in the games, and the few that do are newbies who spam it to death before the mugs in the games have a chance to think about what to type.

The games have to remain - it's a good place for newer members to make friends, and for older members to learn to appreciate the newer members (and make friends). But maybe it should be made clearer somehow to the point that the Fantasy threads are there, and new threads/topics/posts have been made in them.

My absence is not really because of the lack of activity here or and grievance ...
I've become busy with life outside of the internet.
I do notice more technical glitches with this forum than with others.
What happened last night? All of a sudden the page was blank around 9 pm and was still missing at 3 am?

100% completely understandable - we all have a life outside the internet relams. But... glitches? I know there are problems, but that has never happened to me before. I'm on here more than anyone when I get the time. :S

People on this site are so afraid of offending anyone with their opinions anymore. Nobody just says what's on their mind and everyone is too afraid to be the person to call it as it is. This is bullshit. It's the internet, who gives a shit if someone's feelings are hurt by a posting on a message board? It's one thing to flame and to go after another person, because just digging into someone else isn't cool, but if someone sets themselves up to look like an ass, then by all means you take the shot.

REP/Thanks

I agree. Even I have tip-toed around people before, and not saying what I really mean, but that has stated to change. Although the temptation to keep bitching at someone, even though you know/think you'll "win" in the end is quite strong, and people do spam-bitch eachother quite often. Whats worse is that they think it is cool. >.<

Also, I agree with Pete. But wait, I'm one of those few who call things as they are, and I get in trouble for it. =\

Thats because, as you so rightly pointed out to me (I think that was you anyway), not everyone gets your humor. You have that... sarci, bitchy, sometimes sexy way of pissing people off when you don't mean to. Some people take it, and some don't. Thats life.

All in all, some good points have been made here, and even though I've not jumped on all of them, they were good.

EDIT: Bob damn it, took me a darn hour to read, and then write that!

[Taco-Calamitous]

I agree with Pete... to an extent. But I think that you need to look at this (and this isn't just directed at Pete): just because the world does something, doesn't mean you should do it, too. Just because there are people in the world that are assholes, does not give you the excuse to act like an asshole. While I need to ask myself the question, "am I being too uptight?" I think some people also need to ask the question, "am I taking this too far?" It goes both ways. There have been times where someone has gotten "ribbed" by several different people, their first visit to General Chat, and from the outside looking in, it looked more like a case of "let's pick on the newcomer until he/she leaves!" than it did a simple ribbing. And at the same time: "Who the hell are you? ...well, good luck with that." Turned into something like that. (Yay, I started it...) Anyhoo...

Wuv, Yer Mom

[Furore]

I agree with Pete... to an extent. But I think that you need to look at this (and this isn't just directed at Pete): just because the world does something, doesn't mean you should do it, too. Just because there are people in the world that are assholes, does not give you the excuse to act like an asshole. While I need to ask myself the question, "am I being too uptight?" I think some people also need to ask the question, "am I taking this too far?" It goes both ways. There have been times where someone has gotten "ribbed" by several different people, their first visit to General Chat, and from the outside looking in, it looked more like a case of "let's pick on the newcomer until he/she leaves!" than it did a simple ribbing. And at the same time: "Who the hell are you? ...well, good luck with that." Turned into something like that. (Yay, I started it...) Anyhoo...

Wuv, Yer Mom

I agree. I've personally bitched about the picking on the newcomer thing on past MSN convos a few times and after a while I didn't find myself in too many convos.

Not that I really give a damn. That said, there have been convos of late again and they seem pretty cool still. Like the old ones before a few people started acting kind of elitest. I think what we need are more cool members like Meier to balance out any who might think too damn highly of themselves a banner which even includes myself to an extent.

Oh and if I've pissed anyone off, it's unintentional. I got a dozen bottles of premium wines this morning and I'm sortta going through my third or fourth or fifth I think. Bearing in mind I got them around 8am and it's now 11am (my time) I'm pretty ****ed in the head and not thinking 100% clearly. Cheers for understanding peoples.

[Walter Sobchak]

The problem has nothing to do with the moderators, as they have done what they have always been doing. The problem is that there are only six good members. You can't have too much of a discussion with that.

You are going to find it difficult to keep a forum active when the reason for the forum's existence loses its appeal. I don't have a terrible amount of time, and what time I do have goes to so many other things other than role playing games. Now that I am in my twenties, I cannot really relate to people that are fourteen or fifteen years old. That is not their fault, it is just the way it is.

So what happens? You cultivate a few friendships that you talk with in other ways, whether it is instant messaging or even further than that, and you drift away.

In a forum full of younger people, they are not going to cause a lot of controversy. For one, they want to be well liked, and they also have nothing to cause controversy about. After all, where is the controversy in eating Cheerios, listening to rap music, and going to middle school? We used to have a much more active Intellectual Discussion, with fragdemon and many others, but that is gone. All smart members lean the same way politically, so you are not going to get much there.

And that is just one deterioration. We used to have a lot of pretty members, so the Post Your Picture Thread used to be great, but we all know what has happened with that. Clubs were much more exciting before Merlin severely chopped it up and certain people were installed to lead it. Hell, I used to enjoy reading people's journals, but even those are updated few and far between and anyone I like enough here I talk to on MSN, AIM, or other areas.

We should not ask what happened, but instead reminisce as the place crumbles. There is not much else to do.

[Victoria]

AClubs were much more exciting before Merlin severely chopped it up and certain people were installed to lead it.

We should not ask what happened, but instead reminisce as the place crumbles. There is not much else to do.

I disagree with the first statement, because it is moot as of this point. It may have been chopped up before, but Andro and I saw the amount of damage it caused to the activity, so we pretty much said "screw that" and went back to how it used to be run.

The only difference now, is that there can't be anymore factions. (and by factions, I mean clubs made to soley RPB against other clubs.)

But alas, even though we put it back the way it was, it never recovered. People just don't really care about clubs anymore.

I somewhat agree with the second statement. There really isn't much to do anymore.

I mean, don't get me wrong. We can try and resuscitate it as much as we can, and give it a makeover, and other things, but that's only a temporary relief.

Even if the main topic of the forum/site changes to general squeenix instead of FF, (or even general RPG at this point), it won't change the fact that a lot of topics have been talked about and have been spent.

There's not much gaming to talk about anymore except for new games coming out, and anyone who replays/plays the classics for the first time.

[Bleachfangirl]

Something to say: I actually think the moderators are kind of funny when they shut down things that need to be shut down, like petty arguments. If it's an actual discussion, where people aren't just calling each other out to bitch, it's left alone. The Moderators here know what they're doing, and I have no problem against them. And this isn't just me being one of those *****-footed members that don't want to hurt your feelings.

Now for more ranting crap after spending forever reading the most text heavy posts I've ever seen in my life.

Posting etiquette/education isn't something a new member would have unless they're familiar with forums. I was an annoying turd when I first joined, but the preferred type of post is something you figure out with time...and a visit to the rules (Yeah, the rules REALLY help). Just being patient is sometimes the best, because scaring or angering them away isn't the best move. Then, if they still "tyep lyk dis", shove the rules at them in a friendly manner, or let them know, nicely.

The game thing can't be helped.

Bitching is fun, but yeah, it doesn't help any.

The other thing with forums that aren't that active are that they aren't that fun unless there are people you know you can talk to, and newer members don't get that opportunity anymore. People are leaving, but they're busy, or have some issues that are more important to themselves than TFF. There's nothing you can do about that. If they don't want to be here, they don't want to be here.

Now, let's bring that thing about confrontations in here. I don't know whether I agree with this, or not, because sometimes in this confrontation-less forum, there are fits of horrible confrontation that hurt lots of people's feelings. There are three kinds of people that I notice on here, with little sub-categories in them too:

1- The kind that says whatever he or she things because it's the truth. These people are honest, and sometimes seem either mean or intimidating because of it, but they don't mean harm, and aren't offensive with the way they talk. They just want to be real about what they think, because sometimes, people need to know when and when not to take something too seriously. It's a discussion, so accept the other person's opinions without having a hissy-fit. The ones in this group know how to not be bothered by naggers.
1a-The kind that are honest without a care to other people's feelings.
1b-The kind that like to nit-pick and dissect someone's post out of their butt
headed nature. It's okay depending on the post being dissected, but most of the time, it's a little harsh.
1c-The ones that like to post what they think, but have a hissyfit when someone posts something that isn't on the same page as them.

2-The kind that poster that posts carefully because they don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. These guys are nice, but sometimes they become afraid to post because they don't want to get into any drama that's going on sometimes.
2a-The ones that lurk, then make funny little posts that are fun to read, but not offensive to anyone because they're just that random.

3-Members that are gone or don't post at all because they're tired of it.

All the people in these groups obviously don't agree all the time, so of course there'll be some discrepancies in the peace, and we've all seen how even little things can be blown up before. The problem is, all the old stuff is making people too tired to post things now. No one wants anymore arguments or issues to have to deal with, so it feels like they've just lowered their activity to lower the chances of anything happening. I have no idea how to deal with this, but that's just what I think.

Arg, took me forever to type this, because of course no feelings should be hurt.

[Meier Link]

I find it kind of funny that some people take confrentation in a bad way. Yes there are bad forms of confrentation which do not need to happen here and can drive members away but some forms are completely nessicary to help drive topics on.

Like for instance this thread, I put it out there that this place lacked something and it has become one of the most active topics on TFF in the last few weeks, if not months.

Simply disagreeing with someone is a good source of confrentation as long as flaming and bad forms of baiting are not used. Tends to spice things up and keep conversations from becoming very one sided.

Bleachie I would like to make comment on your comments on eticute but then I would be spoiling something else that is in the works at the moment. So I will stay mute on this subject.

I know personally I have made the comment to some that I (quoting myself) "find myself becoming more bored with TFF on a daily basis" and I am sure the same holds true for the most of you. Then inspiration hits and the forums become for a length of time. But really the fear to oppose is on the obsurd side, don't read to much into that by the way. It really seems like everyone is out to please, which as some of you have said doesn't happen all the time in real life, this is a great point.

Hell free speech is a universal right for the most part on the net and yet people are still to intimidated to say what they really want to say in fear of upsetting someone they will probably truely never meet.

Sorry I am cutting this rant short time to head to bed, I will add more later.

[loaf]

I know this board is mainly a Final Fantasy forum. But I think opening more Forums Sections dedicated to certain subjects likes specific games and what not. When I was an SMod back at Square-Ultima, the days were numbering down to it's death. We never got any new members, post count was about 2 a day if not 0. The only people who ever visited the site were pretty much mods and old Vets. Maybe by adding a little more content to talk about would help out. I mean you can only talk about Final Fantasy for so long. But I know it can get pretty messy with a lot of other sections dedicated to just one subject.

[Govinda]

Perhaps (and I truly never thought I would say this) Richard Nixon has it right.

Have you noticed who's been posting in this thread? It's not the fresh blood, because they're still chatting about Final Fantasy and being hilarious in Word Games, like we all used to. Man, those were the days. I was scared of causing offence too when I was 14.

And there are new subjects, fresh things, that young people are more interested in these days than FF - Christ knows why, but it all seems to be Twilight and anime, things that are still current and that internet peeps love. The older people are more interested in news and their own lives.

Maybe TFF itself hasn't changed that much. Maybe it's just us. It is nice to see that people are contributing to this thread though.

[Marceil]

I think I was 22 when I picked up my first controller. Went online at the age of 30.
Started with anime in the 80's, switched to games in the 90's and back to anime again for brief stint until around 2006.
Now I'm almost exclusively into asian music.
Just like the young ones everything was new to me at the time and exciting to talk about.

One of the pets peeves about learning internet etiquette were the annoying locked threads everywhere.
It's different if it was locked because it had reached a post limit.
However, if it was locked and left because it was in violation of something -- the increasing number of these became on eyesore.

On my home forum we began to delete instead of educate. The mods were no longer required to say why they were closing something publicly.
It was simply deleted.
The hate thread responses slowly became a thing of the past.

Posting style problems? I have no easy answer for it.
All I know is that it seems to be unique to the TFF forum, for people to pick apart bit by bit and analyze a users post.
Text talking ... well if other people can read it? (which obviously most can) I don't see what the problem is.
This is a gaming forum and I text often when I'm online with my PSP.
These long winded convos would be a nightmare on the PSP =_=;

I think there's already plenty of variety for content on TFF.
I've found it to be comparable to every other forum I've been to.

So when will the plans for an overhall begin?
Should there be a list of practical changes posted up as a poll so the whole forum can participate?