Foca

[Govinda]

Otherwise known as the Freedom of Choice Act, guaranteeing abortion rights for women in the USA.

I can't believe it's taken so long. It's good news for women's rights.

For some reason, America as far as I can see has been going mental over it. I've been invited to about ten Facebook groups asking me to pray that it isn't passed.

Here's the deal: snopes.com: Freedom of Choice Act

Which also gets rid of the rumour that religious churches will be required to perform abortion.

Thoughts?

[Meier Link]

I will probably be critisized for this, but as a prochoice activist, I think this great.

Now don't take that the wrong way, I beleive all woman should have a choice in what is going on with their bodies. I am not for abortion, nor am I against it. See my post in the ID section about abortion for more information on my veiws.

There are multiple veiws on prochoice, not all are stong abortion supporters.

But like I said I am glad that women have this choice, I will be disappointed if it is abused though, which will more then likely happen to a certain extent. It is a good idea and hopefully we will see some good out of it.

[Taco-Calamitous]

I think that an abortion is a terrible thing, indeed. I don't know that the young women of today are educated enough on what it actually is, and what their other options are. I think certain groups like to shut up anyone who tells them what it actually is, and their other options are for fear that it will cause a slippery slope and ban abortion entirely. I don't think it is a question of religion, either; a partial birth abortion is essentially the woman giving birth halfway, and before the baby's head is out, they cut the back of it open with scissors and suck out the brains, so that the child isn't technically born yet.

You can say whatever you want about this. I will never be in the position to choose, but if I ever have a daughter, I will strongly discourage her from having one, point her towards her other options... and still love her regardless of her decision, even if she makes what I feel to be a terrible one in the end. Anyhoo...

Wuv, Yer Mom

[Pete]

I think it's a cop out. It'll piss me off even more if healthcare gets socialized in this country *shudder*. My tax dollars will not go to remedies for stupidity.

Oh, I was too impatient to make my boyfriend wear a rubber. Oh, I didn't know that I could get pregnant during my first time. Oh, but my boyfriend complains that condoms make sex less sensitive.

Stupid, stupid, very true but still stupid.

The only times I see abortions as ok are in cases of rape, incest and when the mother's life is in jeopardy. Other than that, I don't give a rat's ass.

On the other hand, I'm not a fan of welfare leeches either...

[lottiepop]

I'm really glad it's been passed, although here in the UK it's been fine for a while. It is in my opinion a women's choice as to whether or not they have an abortion.

Yes I'm very much prochoice, being an atheist I have no real religious morals to contend with and I'm quite happy that women can now choose.

It should be perfectly legal to have an abortion because I mean what if you're 17 or 18 and it's all unplanned, you still have your whole life ahead of you. And you can't really force the victim of a rapist to have their baby, that is just wrong.

I do however think the decision should not be taken lightly, careful consideration and doctor's opinions and what not should be thought about first.

[Clint]

People take abortion far too seriously. The matter for legalized abortion up to three months into a pregnancy was already decided during Roe v. Wade in the 1970s.

I saw that part about Bishops wanting to close down all Catholic hospitals because they will be required to perform abortions upon request. So essentially, they're closing down the hospitals because they think that by doing so, they are saving a life, whereas the reality is, if they don't perform the abortion, there are plenty of other hospitals that will. In reality, by closing down the hospitals, they will be taking lives, by taking away 30% of the hospitals in the United States. They're willing to sacrifice people in need of emergency medical attention for unborn babies that are going to be aborted no matter what they do. Yep, that sounds like the Catholics to me.

[Walter Sobchak]

It really is incredible what can be accomplished when an adult enters the White House. Forty years of incompetence can shake a foundation.

I could spend time being mad that my money is going to perform abortions, but when I understand that my country is fighting wars which cost much more and should never have been waged, I can't complain.

[Rikkuffx]

Abortion is murder. I stand by my belief. You're killing a living thing and do not tell me that a fetus is not living yet because its not born. I'm all for women's rights but not when its murder. Thats why we have adoption,so your not a baby killer. It has been proved that a fetus can feel the burning sensation when the drugs are being adminstered. I'm also not too fond of funding abortions through my tax dollars when I dont believe in abortion. I understand if you were raped or the baby will have a mental illness and you do not want that child but theres adoption.Oh and I do not care if you all hate me now cause of this i'm standing by my thoughts.

[Meier Link]

Why would anyone "hate" you for standing up for your beleif? Is that not a good thing?

But I will quote you on this one, just because I want your opinion on it.

the baby will have a mental illness and you do not want that child but theres adoption

I am curious, if the baby is born technicly brain dead but still alive, would that honestly be the best thing for the baby? Keep in mind the baby is only being kept alive by the use of machines, exiled to adooption. Who would want to take that child in?

Keep in mind it is just a question out of intrest.

[Furore]

You're killing a living thing and do not tell me that a fetus is not living yet because its not born.

We're all likely killing a shiteload of microscopic organisms every second just by living and doing the things living entails. We're likely also harming and/or killing several plants and bugs as we walk along natural floor such as various grasses. When we sleep I hear we also swallow a number insects and spiders on average. That doesn't help them.

Like wearing leather? That usually comes from the hide (and quite possibly rump ) of an animal such as a cow or crocodile. Some might die naturally, but I'm guessing a lot would be harvested at a certain time 'manually'. And by 'manually' I mean with a knife, gun or some other killing object. Sure, it might be done when they harvest meat for our meals, but either way, it's definetely killing a living thing for us all. And many things can be synthesised in part from a part of whichever animal.

I just figured, I'd mention it, as even if you choose to be a vegan or one of those often badly malnourished people who only eats dropped fruit, your life will STILL come at the expense of much life.

Fetuses may be living things, but that rarely stops us humans...

Anyways, I'm also pro-choice. While I'd hate for my own child to be aborted at any point, I believe the choice should be available, especially if there are possible health risks a carrier of the fetus might be at risk of. I hear death can be one of these 'health risks' in rarer circumstances. Some people really don't seem to handle death all that well...

And there are cases where a child might be born into an unloving world and might become a negative character. I know a few, I've worked construction with some and some would rather not have been born. Yes, some will make it and live a good life, but not every woman would abort their baby either, would they?

Also, I think they should do an international campaign on the awesomeness of condoms and other methods of contraception. Then there'd likely be a good deal fewer abortions wanted. Kids not like condoms as they 'lose sensation'? Just get the lass a pill. Or do one of several other alternatives, which likely carry bad side effects in some cases but then you rarely get something for nothing, AMIRITE?

[Taco-Calamitous]

The difference between a fetus and other living things is that a it is a human being. You might disagree, but that is the major issue here: an abortion ends a human life, no matter how new or small. You might also question how a human life is more important than that of another living thing. At this point, I guess that it depends on differences in morals and beliefs, and I don't think that anything I could say would convince you to believe otherwise.

I don't buy the idea that many people are dissatisfied with their lives is a good reason for abortion, however. Any person has the potential to live any life they choose-good or bad-if they are given the chance.

As for the "there's a war going on, and that's more important" idea: that is a completely different matter to discuss altogether. One does not have to support the war and be against abortion, however. Anyhoo...

Wuv, Yer Mom

[Furore]

The difference between a fetus and other living things is that a it is a human being. You might disagree, but that is the major issue here: an abortion ends a human life, no matter how new or small. You might also question how a human life is more important than that of another living thing. At this point, I guess that it depends on differences in morals and beliefs, and I don't think that anything I could say would convince you to believe otherwise.

Don't get me started on masturbation. =)
All that poor undeveloped human matter going to waste...
THE HUMANITY!!!

It is my view that human life starts before conception. Unless those which combine to create an individual aren't alive...
In which case we could...
ALL BE UNDEAD ZOMBIE THINGS!

I truly hope that isn't the case. And love that for the moment at least this is general chat and not Intellectual Discussion. Actually, I'd probably get away with this there too, I've seen people get away with worse.

[Walter Sobchak]

As for the "there's a war going on, and that's more important" idea: that is a completely different matter to discuss altogether. One does not have to support the war and be against abortion, however. Anyhoo...

Wuv, Yer Mom

No. There is only one thing to discuss. Abortion is here and is never going to go away. Abortion rights will continue to increase as times go on. Partial-birth is the only real arguable issue, and that is a minor debate because. The war, on the other hand, is a debatable issue, with different schools of thought on withdrawal and tactics.

Arguing about when life begins and all that hoopla is about as meaningless as arguing with a young-Earth creationist. While arguing on an Internet forum is meaningless and changes nothing, the issue has already been solved, whether or not the right wants to accept it.

[Sasquatch]

We're all likely killing a shiteload of microscopic organisms every second just by living and doing the things living entails. We're likely also harming and/or killing several plants and bugs as we walk along natural floor such as various grasses. When we sleep I hear we also swallow a number insects and spiders on average. That doesn't help them.

Like wearing leather? That usually comes from the hide (and quite possibly rump ) of an animal such as a cow or crocodile. Some might die naturally, but I'm guessing a lot would be harvested at a certain time 'manually'. And by 'manually' I mean with a knife, gun or some other killing object. Sure, it might be done when they harvest meat for our meals, but either way, it's definetely killing a living thing for us all. And many things can be synthesised in part from a part of whichever animal.

I just figured, I'd mention it, as even if you choose to be a vegan or one of those often badly malnourished people who only eats dropped fruit, your life will STILL come at the expense of much life.

Fetuses may be living things, but that rarely stops us humans...

The difference -- as has been pointed out -- is that children are humans. Not cows, not insects, and not simple "microscopic organisms". Humans. And while some people consider all life to be equal and an unborn child to be nothing more than a parasite, I would gladly kill a hundred cute little kittens if it meant saving one person's life.

Arguing about when life begins and all that hoopla is about as meaningless as arguing with a young-Earth creationist.

You mean you can't argue pseudoscience against science and religion in this case, either?

While arguing on an Internet forum is meaningless and changes nothing, the issue has already been solved, whether or not the right wants to accept it.

The issue's been solved ... I guess that's why we have the Big Bang Law and Law of Evolution. And by the way, just because somebody doesn't agree with you on completely non-political issues doesn't mean they're on a different side of the political spectrum.

[Furore]

The difference -- as has been pointed out -- is that children are humans. Not cows, not insects, and not simple "microscopic organisms". Humans. And while some people consider all life to be equal and an unborn child to be nothing more than a parasite, I would gladly kill a hundred cute little kittens if it meant saving one person's life.

Not really my point. My point was that someone said that little bit I quoted about killing things being wrong when I could very easily point out we're killing things all the time. It's all life after all. Well, mostly. There are some who would say a good deal of microbes aren't life as they do not meet all the criteria to be considered alive or some jazz.

And why shouldn't abortions be legal? All it does is give people a choice, and if they feel like they wouldn't want to abort a child, they won't. Easy shit. I wouldn't allow a child of mine to be aborted if I could help it as I'd do everything in my power to give the kid a good chance. Not everyone thinks as I do though, and in some situations, an abortion could be beneficial, especially if the unborn human material puts the very real mother in a risky situation. Or some other uncommon situation that still isn't exactly rare as far as unusal medical happenings go.

All this talk of fetuses and life makes me wonder if any cannibals eat fetuses...
And has there ever been some kind of fetus burger? Perhaps with cheese, lettuce, beetroot and one or two other things?
If McDonalds opened in some country where cannibalism was rampant they could create such a burger. It could be the BigMan!

[Taco-Calamitous]

Before I leave this topic, I just have one thing to say...

No.

Don't tell me no. Don't tell me what I should think is more important. To me, this is still a very real issue. I didn't come into this thread thinking I would change anyone's minds on the issue; I simply came into it to express my opinion, so that no one would think that that opinion is gone from the world. Furthermore, don't talk about arguing with a "young creationist," either. You aren't exactly up there in the years, yourself. You don't have all the answers yet. Your way of thinking isn't the ultimate way. Maybe you don't believe that it is, but I just have to make sure that you know, because it doesn't always seem that way with you.

I am done. Carry on! Anyhoo...

Wuv, Yer Mom

[Walter Sobchak]

Don't tell me no. Don't tell me what I should think is more important. To me, this is still a very real issue. I didn't come into this thread thinking I would change anyone's minds on the issue; I simply came into it to express my opinion, so that no one would think that that opinion is gone from the world. Furthermore, don't talk about arguing with a "young creationist," either. You aren't exactly up there in the years, yourself. You don't have all the answers yet. Your way of thinking isn't the ultimate way. Maybe you don't believe that it is, but I just have to make sure that you know, because it doesn't always seem that way with you.

Get off your high horse and read what I wrote.

Its "young-Earth creationist", not "young creationist". The line "you don't have all the answers yet" is ridiculous coming from someone who has espoused specific beliefs, and you know that. Years ago you used to be a really smart guy, and I know he is still there somewhere.

Unlike you, I have claimed knowledge of nothing. When I say that the debate of when life begins is irrelevant, I am not picking a time. Your decision to worship a very specific set of rules from a specific time period is more geared towards a perceived ownership of life's answers than mine. I accept the parameters of reality much more closely than someone who tries to reconcile facts with a religious work.

Your opinion had been voiced millions of times in millions of debates by millions of people, so don't pretend you are a crusader. You started this by quoting me and telling me I was wrong, so I have every right, and obligation, to reply with a terse "no."

My point still stands, and you haven't refuted it. Tax-funded abortions are never going to go away, even if the Republicans take back Congress and the White House. The war in Iraq is a much more tangible issue with debatable facets to discuss. You can rant about how it is murder just like I can rant that I am kept on hold too long when I call customer support, but the issue has already been decided. So why not move on to constructive thinking? Is it because it is easier to stick your head in the sand with an issue like abortion? The dumbest people on the planet have opinions about abortion because it is easy, but most people have no idea what is going on in Afghanistan or Iraq.

[Sinister]

If it's genetically unique, and it's alive...then it can be killed and arguably murdered... A choice is a choice... And I'll never have to make that one and I'll never have to worry about it's moral implications. I'm something of a libertarian, so choices/freedoms are fine. But I don't condone the act at all...and I never will. *shrugs*

-Sin

[winterborn86]

I never knew women weren't allowed to have abortions in the US.
I don't believe in abortions and have always been against it, but no one has the right to say that a woman can't get it done, it's their baby and their body and if having an abortion is what they want to do then they should be allowed to do it, but I know I would never approve of it, there are other alternatives if you don't a baby, as rikkufx pointed out there is adoption, there are loads of people out there who give everything they own to have a baby.
It is only fair that women can choose what they want to tho do.

[Walter Sobchak]

I never knew women weren't allowed to have abortions in the US.

They are. Roe vs. Wade made it legal for the entire country. The Freedom of Choice Act is simply affirming the procedure, as well as turning over state laws that were designed to find loopholes in the system to prevent someone from getting an abortion.