Christian fundamentalists try to block protection for gay kids at school

[Phantom]

Hello all, I read this article this morning, and out of all the articles I've read, this just isn't right by any standards. Christian Fundamentalists trying to block protection rights for gay children. Very sad, how this world is turning.

Christian fundamentalists try to block protection for gay kids at school - from Pink News - all the latest gay news from the gay community - Pink News


Christian evangelical groups have been accused of trying to undermine an effort by a teaching organisation to protect children from bullies.

The General Teaching Council is conducting a consultation on a proposed Code of Conduct and Practice.

The evangelicals have taken exception to one section of the Code which reads:

"Registered teachers should proactively challenge discrimination, stereotyping and bullying, no matter who is the victim or perpetrator; promote equality and value diversity in all their professional relationships and interactions."

The Christian Institute and other evangelical groups have interpreted this be "a tool for promoting secularism and gay rights" and have orchestrated a mass write-in by their members objecting to it.

In a mail-out to its supporters it listed some "examples" of supposed discriminations that Christians have suffered.

They include a nurse who was disciplined for offering to "pray" for patients and a registrar who tried to claim that she should be excused from some of her duties because of her religious prejudice against gay people.

The Institute claims that under the GTC guidelines Christian teachers will have to treat gay kids with respect regardless of their views on homosexuality.

Terry Sanderson, president of the National Secular Society, said:

"The Christian Institute is an unpleasant bunch at the best of times, but this really scrapes the bottom of the barrel.

"Who could possibly object to children being protected from the prejudices of bullies, bigots and zealots when they are captive in school?

"The objections to this Code of Practice are not only nasty, they are unconvincing and exaggerated."

The NSS has written to the GTC warning them that an orchestrated campaign is underway and urging them to leave the section of their Code unchanged.

Colin Hart, Director of The Christian Institute, said:

"Christians would support most of the code, but many are alarmed by the new diversity rules.

"Under the code, Christian teachers will be required to 'proactively combat discrimination' and 'value diversity' based on religious belief and sexual orientation.

"The code rightly requires that teachers should respect their colleagues and those they teach.

"But respect for people as people is not the same as respecting or valuing every religious belief or sexual lifestyle.

"Forcing this on Christian teachers is to force them to go against their conscience."
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Here is a link to the comments posted as well:

Pink News - Comments on Christian fundamentalists try to block protection for gay kids at school
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This is just wrong. Regardless of what religion you are or what you believe, kids should still be respected and treated fairly. This is another form of discrimination, to kids! I mean for gay adults its hard and horrible but for kids...its just sick and wrong to treat them like that.

Your throughts?

[Aara]

i think that is horriable, that kids are being hurt! i know that i'm bi & it hurts me to hear that children are being hurt.

[RamesesII]

Ha who the hell is going to protect the kids out of school hours, not to mention all the bullying and discrimination that isn't seen or reported what percentage of kids go and tell teachers or parents whats going on behind closed doors or in an alley way to and from school. Seriously! and those bloody Christians i've just about had enough of them (sorry for those of you who are christian in the forum) how the hell do the get away with all these priests etc sexually abusing children you see it in the newspaper all the time. I've got kids not yet of school age but jeez i know nothing will probably stop them from being bullied if they do get bullied or verbally abused or discriminated.
Its not the physical abuse you have to watch out for these days its turned into verbal abuse which leads to the even greater mental issues. All i can say is im teaching my kids how to kick some ones arse if the get physically bullied or abused although with the world going the way it is ill probably end up in jail and my children shipped out to some bloody home.Back in the days the kids would sort it out with a good fist fight and then after they would be best bloody mates that is how it worked in my days. The world has just gone stupid.

But that is another issue.

[Sasquatch]

Christian evangelical groups have been accused of trying to undermine an effort by a teaching organisation to protect children from bullies.

They've been accused. So much for "innocent until proven guilty" and "assumption of innocence" -- apparently, if you're Christian and accused of doing something bad, you're automatically guilty.

The Christian Institute and other evangelical groups have interpreted this be "a tool for promoting secularism and gay rights" and have orchestrated a mass write-in by their members objecting to it.

What "other evangelical groups"?

In a mail-out to its supporters it listed some "examples" of supposed discriminations that Christians have suffered.

They include a nurse who was disciplined for offering to "pray" for patients and a registrar who tried to claim that she should be excused from some of her duties because of her religious prejudice against gay people.

A nurse offered to pray for her patients and was disciplined for it -- that's not discrimination?

The other example mentions a registrar who probably recognized her own personal bias and asked to be replaced, to ensure that her bias wouldn't effect the clients.

The Institute claims that under the GTC guidelines Christian teachers will have to treat gay kids with respect regardless of their views on homosexuality.

I doubt that -- where did the Christian Institute claim that treating queer kids with respect is their only problem with the plan, or a problem at all?

Terry Sanderson, president of the National Secular Society, said ...

Because who's the best person to comment on what Christians think? The leader of an anti-Christian organization.

"The Christian Institute is an unpleasant bunch at the best of times, but this really scrapes the bottom of the barrel.

Because the opinions of a bunch of open anti-Christians are more important than any other opinions, right?

Colin Hart, Director of The Christian Institute, said:

"Christians would support most of the code, but many are alarmed by the new diversity rules.

"Under the code, Christian teachers will be required to 'proactively combat discrimination' and 'value diversity' based on religious belief and sexual orientation.

"Diversity" is nothing to be strived for. It's not bad, of course, but there is absolutely no reason that anything should be sacrificed for the sake of "diversity".

And when you get into "diversity based on religious belief and sexual orientation" ... what he's saying is that Christians have no reason to encourage others to not be Christian or not be straight just because it makes the group more "diverse".

"The code rightly requires that teachers should respect their colleagues and those they teach.

"But respect for people as people is not the same as respecting or valuing every religious belief or sexual lifestyle.

What's bad about this? He's saying that we should respect the people, but that's not the same as respecting their choices.

[Chez Daja]

Again, nothing against gay children, but shouldn't ALL sexuality be excused from school life?
You say 'kids', which suggests they're under the age of 18. I know sexuality in high schools DOES exist, but maybe it shouldn't. Just a thought.

People go to school to learn. It should stay that way.

[Rocky]

Again, nothing against gay children, but shouldn't ALL sexuality be excused from school life?
You say 'kids', which suggests they're under the age of 18. I know sexuality in high schools DOES exist, but maybe it shouldn't. Just a thought.

People go to school to learn. It should stay that way.

Haha, very good point Chez. It is very distracting for myself as a high school student back in the day when I was trying to gain more Calculus knowledge when the cheerleading captain kept whispering raunchy things in my ear. Do you know how hard it is to integrate in calculus, let alone when I could cut the sexual tension in the air with a knife?! Next thing I know, I'm sitting at the lunch table, just trying to get through the struggle of daily life (because high school is soooo tough and stressful and all), and these two girls kept telling me to meet them behind the flagpole and they'll "show me theirs if I show them mine." I'm just trying to go to school to learn mang, that's all. If these fundamentalists wanna run things like a boss, I think any kind of flirting or any hints at sexuality should be permabanned from school. Because that is all school is, boys getting the girls in the back. [/Gwen Stefani]

The Institute claims that under the GTC guidelines Christian teachers will have to treat gay kids with respect regardless of their views on homosexuality.

Gee, I didn't see that one coming. Who would of thunk it? To be respectful, to everyone? I'm glad they wrote this one down in the guidelines, because I'm sure as hell that people will leave this up to interpretation and now all kinds of Supreme Court rulings will come from it.

Terry Sanderson, president of the National Secular Society, said:

"The Christian Institute is an unpleasant bunch at the best of times, but this really scrapes the bottom of the barrel.

Those crazy Christians. They are just an unpleasant bunch of people. From going down to help with Hurricane Katrina relief, to flying over to Belize to run a summer camp, to helping poverty-stricken people in Jamaica building houses for their families (these are just experiences of me in the presence of them firsthand). Nevermind them helping millions and millions of people worldwide (I hear they serve more people than McDonalds, but that's just a rumor), they are a force to be dealt with, and we must eliminate all of them and their silly organizations at all costs!

...Or just not take them seriously. Like I did, with this thread. lolgg

[Unknown Entity]

Again, nothing against gay children, but shouldn't ALL sexuality be excused from school life?
You say 'kids', which suggests they're under the age of 18. I know sexuality in high schools DOES exist, but maybe it shouldn't. Just a thought.

People go to school to learn. It should stay that way.

A very good point. Unfortunatly, lots of kids feel the urge to express themselves before they have got know themsleves. The kids who develop feelings for someone of the same sex see it as a big deal, and that it is something to gloat about to other people. Yeah, a big deal to them as an individual, but to the bullies, it's just another reason to pick on someone. I feel too, that maybe sexuality is something people should keep quiet about until they are sure whether they are straight, gay or bisexual. It's only when you hit college or uni, that people are more grown up about things like this - at Haggerston, pretty much everyone in my year save a few were homophobes. At college, to some people it's still a tad of a joke, but it's so much more grown up.

Either way, teachers, or whatever... They should be open minded about who they teach. Period. I've been bullied by a teacher at Primary school, and I tell ya, it ain't nice. For what? Being a bit of a tom-boy. If I was like everyone else in the class, ie, the slag who is on her second child now, I wouldn't have had to endure that. I mean, when you become a teacher, you should know the kinds of people you are going to be teaching. If you don't like it, then find another job. Work at "Gay H8ters R Us" or anyother brand you can think of regarding someones personality and/or looks.

Ribbing and a little bullying toughen a person up and teach them valuable skills for later on in life. Maybe other ways work too, but I never seen it in action.

Not all kids. I have confidence problems, and loads of pent up anger problems from way back when I was at Primary school. I guess I was one of the weaker ones eh?

Those crazy Christians. They are just an unpleasant bunch of people. From going down to help with Hurricane Katrina relief, to flying over to Belize to run a summer camp, to helping poverty-stricken people in Jamaica building houses for their families (these are just experiences of me in the presence of them firsthand). Nevermind them helping millions and millions of people worldwide (I hear they serve more people than McDonalds, but that's just a rumor), they are a force to be dealt with, and we must eliminate all of them and their silly organizations at all costs!

ZOMG, you did a dis on yerself!

Kidding. You also have a very good point. The only thing that Christians can't get the grasp of is liking the gay guy. Haha, though apparently, if its two gay girls at it, it's ok... Anyway... Christians are brilliant at helping people in need, I'll give you that. But... you know the poverty-stricken families in Jamaca? What if one or two of the families had a gay member of the family? Would Christians help them then?

Damn, that went off a tad, but there was a point.

[Rocky]

But... you know the poverty-stricken families in Jamaca? What if one or two of the families had a gay member of the family? Would Christians help them then?

Damn, that went off a tad, but there was a point.

Well, although as far as I know, we didn't work with any Jamaican homosexuals, but there were several guys that were smoking some marijuana in plain view. Considering that marijuana is illegal in Jamaica (despite what people may believe, so don't buy the good stuff down there unless you want to spend time in a Jamaican jail cell and I wouldn't recommend that to anyone), I'm sure we can let our predispositions towards others slide and work with them.

Besides, as a missionary, my job is to help people in need, first and foremost. If helping a person out leads them closer to God, then awesome. If not, then there is a probability that my action towards a person may be a small "cog" in the chain, and later down the road that person may become a Christian.

I really miss the good ole days when it was ok to make fun of everyone. Now everyone is all politically correct and some of the best comedy is just thrown out the window.

I agree with you 100%. I think the whole world should take the time out of their day and watch the movie "Gran Torino," and then people will realize the stupid bickering needs to come to a stop.

[Phantom]

Well, although as far as I know, we didn't work with any Jamaican homosexuals, but there were several guys that were smoking some marijuana in plain view. Considering that marijuana is illegal in Jamaica (despite what people may believe, so don't buy the good stuff down there unless you want to spend time in a Jamaican jail cell and I wouldn't recommend that to anyone), I'm sure we can let our predispositions towards others slide and work with them.

Besides, as a missionary, my job is to help people in need, first and foremost. If helping a person out leads them closer to God, then awesome. If not, then there is a probability that my action towards a person may be a small "cog" in the chain, and later down the road that person may become a Christian.



I agree with you 100%. I think the whole world should take the time out of their day and watch the movie "Gran Torino," and then people will realize the stupid bickering needs to come to a stop.

If helping a person out leads them closer to God, then awesome. If not, then there is a probability that my action towards a person may be a small "cog" in the chain, and later down the road that person may become a Christian.


So, is your missionary work a chance to convert people? What if that person you save believes in another religion? This reminds me of those times whenever I went shopping on a Sunday and had to wait in the subway tunnel for the trolley, a man (probarly a missionary or just a very hype priest comes into the crowded terminal and starts preaching the "Good word", and wanting to save our souls, and if you convert to so and so religion you'll truely be saved. Then the guy would walk around the terminal giving people little books about converting to Christianity. Needless to say when he got to me I gave him the evil eye and he left me alone, but this is exactly my point, and another reason why I dislike and distrust religion.



I think its nice that Chrisitan missionaries are going out to countries helping little kids and homeless folks on the streets, what I don't like about missionaries is the fact that they wander around looking to help people but then shove these little Chrisitanity booklets in the faces of the people they help. My great Grandfather was a missionary back in the old days when he was young, and he did the same thing: Helped the helpless, talk to them about having faith in God blah blah blah, then say become a Chrisitan and you'll be see what wonderful things Jesus has in store for you. Sounded shady to me, like some underground cult.


Anyway back on topic.

@ Chessevixen:

As far as the sex thing. It's a distraction in school...work...everywhere. Either way people will be angry or ignore it. I know tons of couples that met in the work place...high school sweethearts...it happens. Just a part of our primal make up.

I totally agree with this post, it is a distraction, and school should be a safe haven for kids to learn. What you do after school is up to you, but while in school it is a teacher/principal's responsibility to ensure the safety of each child in their care regardless of what their beliefs are, or what they believe in. They have a job to do, even if they dont like it, their students are still their responsilbity while they are in school, after school their parents are there responsibility.

[Pete]

I really miss the good ole days when it was ok to make fun of everyone. Now everyone is all politically correct and some of the best comedy is just thrown out the window. If I learned anything from grade school it was that a bully could be the biggest motivation out there, and that karma is a bitch.

Now, I agree that teachers should put a stop to bullying and violence and all of that, but they shouldn't really have to force everyone to accept each other and to try and assimilate everything. When you do stuff like that, you start to lose sight of your own self. It's one thing to have like an international day at a school, where the kids bring in an ethnic dish or perform a dance, but it's another thing to force them to completely tolerate it. I had a teacher who made us try one thing from every nation, because she felt that we shouldn't discriminate. Guess what happened, I got food poisoning because I didn't want to try sushi that was left unrefrigerated for a few hours. I told my teacher that I didn't want to try it, and she told me that I had to because the Japanese kid's mom would get offended if I didn't.

What I'm trying to get at is that why should kids be forced to like other people, so as not to offend them?


I also feel that, like Rocky and Chez said, why should sexuality have any place in school? Straight or gay, you're there to learn, not champion for rights. Even in college. You're there to learn, don't disrupt it for the other kids, just because you have an agenda. If that's what you want to do with your school tax/ tuition, then so be it, but just remember that other people are paying the same thing to get an education.

[nix]

America the land of freedom.. I really think you guys should revise that, as your people are anything but free

Freedom of speech? What ? your suing me for slander?

Freedom to Marry who you want ? Oh no, please dont beat me with your cross shaped baton !

And rocky wtf, dodging highschool *****? Whats wrong with you? best ***** you will ever get ! Taking school abit too serious mate.

[Sasquatch]

I really miss the good ole days when it was ok to make fun of everyone. Now everyone is all politically correct and some of the best comedy is just thrown out the window.

Amen, brother. Amen.

Now, I agree that teachers should put a stop to bullying and violence and all of that, but they shouldn't really have to force everyone to accept each other and to try and assimilate everything.

Indeed. That's the parents' job.

America the land of freedom.. I really think you guys should revise that, as your people are anything but free

How so?

Freedom of speech? What ? your suing me for slander?

What? You mean I'm not allowed to dishonor your name and lie about you, causing personal harm to your life, career, reputation, or livelihood? I'M NOT FREE!

Freedom to Marry who you want ? Oh no, please dont beat me with your cross shaped baton !

I hope you're being stupid on purpose, here. You mean I'm not allowed to redifine marriage as it's been defined for thousands of years so I can have taxpayers support my personal sexual abnormalities? I'M NOT FREE!

And rocky wtf, dodging highschool *****? Whats wrong with you? best ***** you will ever get ! Taking school abit too serious mate.

If high school tang is the best you've ever gotten, you've never gotten anything but. Anybody who's gotten more than high school sex will back me up on that, I'm sure.

As far as a Christian group denying the kids a chance at a better experience and the chance to be who they want, **** off mates. People need some damn empathy.

That's not what's happening. Nobody is "denying" anything -- they're simply saying that nobody should be forced to accept another's lifestyle.

It's only when you hit college or uni, that people are more grown up about things like this - at Haggerston, pretty much everyone in my year save a few were homophobes. At college, to some people it's still a tad of a joke, but it's so much more grown up.

Let me just ask ... does making a "gay joke" make somebody a "homophobe"?

If you don't like it, then find another job. Work at "Gay H8ters R Us" or anyother brand you can think of regarding someones personality and/or looks.

Just because somebody doesn't agree with a particular dysfunction doesn't mean they "hate" people who have it.

The only thing that Christians can't get the grasp of is liking the gay guy.

It's too bad the Bible doesn't say anything like, "love the sinner" ... OH WAIT.

Haha, though apparently, if its two gay girls at it, it's ok...

What Christian groups have protested homosexuality in males, but not in females?

Please. I want to see this. People who realize that homosexuality is abnormal (often labeled "homophobes") very rarely say anything about how queer guys are bad, but lesbians are good. I want to see something from any sort of Christian group that says that.

Anyway... Christians are brilliant at helping people in need, I'll give you that. But... you know the poverty-stricken families in Jamaca? What if one or two of the families had a gay member of the family? Would Christians help them then?

Are you trying to make a point, or are you actually asking a question? If it's the latter, your answer is yes. No Biblical missionary group would say, "well, we would have given food to your starving family, but that little one looks a little limp-wristed, so you're gonna have to keep fending for yourselves. That'll learn ya."

DI can't kick someone out of my store because they are black, or call them a homo while ringing them up..life doesn't work that way.

Actually, if you work at a private business that doesn't receive federal funding, you can hang up a "whites only" sign by the door if you want. You'll lose a lot of customers, but hey, that's your choice. As far as insulting people goes, you might get into "they hurt my feelings!" lawsuits, but as for refusing service, that's the right of the private business.

So, is your missionary work a chance to convert people? What if that person you save believes in another religion?

Why does that make a difference? If you want somebody to accept your beliefs, whether they're religious, political, social, sexual, or otherwise, what they currently believe makes no difference, unless it's also what you believe, in which case, there's no need to try to convince them of something they already believe.

If you think apples are the best fruit in the world, and you meet two people, one of whom thinks apples are the best fruit in the world and the other of whom thinks oranges are the best fruit in the world, which one would you talk to if you wanted to convince everybody that apples were the best fruit in the world?

This reminds me of those times whenever I went shopping on a Sunday and had to wait in the subway tunnel for the trolley, a man (probarly a missionary or just a very hype priest comes into the crowded terminal and starts preaching the "Good word", and wanting to save our souls, and if you convert to so and so religion you'll truely be saved. Then the guy would walk around the terminal giving people little books about converting to Christianity. Needless to say when he got to me I gave him the evil eye and he left me alone, but this is exactly my point, and another reason why I dislike and distrust religion.

How DARE they talk to me and hand me a pamphlet! I hate them!

I think its nice that Chrisitan missionaries are going out to countries helping little kids and homeless folks on the streets, what I don't like about missionaries is the fact that they wander around looking to help people but then shove these little Chrisitanity booklets in the faces of the people they help. My great Grandfather was a missionary back in the old days when he was young, and he did the same thing: Helped the helpless, talk to them about having faith in God blah blah blah, then say become a Chrisitan and you'll be see what wonderful things Jesus has in store for you. Sounded shady to me, like some underground cult.

What an evil man, for believing that his religion helps people and wanting others to get that help! Why, he must have been pure evil!

He might have even been *gasp* a conservative!

He probarly was, anyway.

What you do after school is up to you, but while in school it is a teacher/principal's responsibility to ensure the safety of each child in their care regardless of what their beliefs are, or what they believe in.

There's a difference in ensuring safety and forcing everybody to accept their viewpoint. You still must not understand the difference between tolerance and encouragement.

[Furore]

That's not what's happening. Nobody is "denying" anything -- they're simply saying that nobody should be forced to accept another's lifestyle.

And why not? All that would be forced upon people is some tolerance of how another chooses to live their life. I guess I'm just not one of those enlightened enough to realise that because I'm definetely correct I shouldn't have to allow others to live as they choose even though it wouldn't really effect me. Too bad that.

Just because somebody doesn't agree with a particular dysfunction doesn't mean they "hate" people who have it.

Tell that to employers including so called 'equal opportunity employers' who hear you have a disability and then refuse to hire you or find a way to be rid of you even if it doesn't affect your work capacity in any way. And believe me, it happens. Even if it's not hatred, they do seem to now see you on a lower level and that in itself is pretty ****ing uncalled for.

And that's just one example, people in general often do act poorly towards those they don't understand or agree with. My least favourite people? Those crazy minority Christians who believe artificially created humans have no soul. Like little ol' IVF fertilised me. But thanks to the wonderful law system here I can just stick my finger up at them and make retarded moaning/groaning noises.

It's too bad the Bible doesn't say anything like, "love the sinner" ... OH WAIT.

It's too bad many Christians don't seem to always live by that message. I mean targetting homosexuals isn't loving them. Not agreeing with lustful acts that may drive a Christian away from his God is perfectly fine, but not when you're targetting the sinner, right? I personally feel God is the only being with the right to judge and man takes it upon himself to act with God's authority way too damn much...

[Sasquatch]

And why not? All that would be forced upon people is some tolerance of how another chooses to live their life.

Tolerance -- not acceptance. There's a difference between, "Timmy's different, but we can't treat him mean for it," and, "Timmy's not different."

I guess I'm just not one of those enlightened enough to realise that because I'm definetely correct I shouldn't have to allow others to live as they choose even though it wouldn't really effect me. Too bad that.

I'm not saying they shouldn't be allowed to live like they want to. I'm saying they shouldn't expect others to go out of their way to pretend that them living the way they want to is normal.

Tell that to employers including so called 'equal opportunity employers' who hear you have a disability and then refuse to hire you or find a way to be rid of you even if it doesn't affect your work capacity in any way. And believe me, it happens. Even if it's not hatred, they do seem to now see you on a lower level and that in itself is pretty ****ing uncalled for.

You're talking about a disability, not something like homosexuality. And while it's uncalled for and illegal, there's nearly always some logic to it. Hell, I've had a potential employer refuse to hire me because I'm in the Army, which means I'd be unavailable for a few days a month and a couple weeks a year, with the possibility of being deployed for more than a year. Stupid? Yes. Illegal? Yes. Illogical? Not really.

Hell, the same thing could be said for women. If you throw legality out the window, who would you rather have working for you -- a man, or a woman? Both could do the job equally well, but with a man, you wouldn't be forced to give more days off for her to take care of her children (as mothers are usually the ones that do that, as opposed to fathers), and you wouldn't be forced to waste time and money training somebody that might be out for months at a time if she gets pregnant.

Now, because I wasn't hired, or because an employer might rather hire a man, does that mean they hate the Army, or hate women?

And that's just one example, people in general often do act poorly towards those they don't understand or agree with.

And they can do just that, if they want to. Just like you can act poorly towards those you disagree with.

It's too bad many Christians don't seem to always live by that message. I mean targetting homosexuals isn't loving them.

"Targetting"? For what?

I personally feel God is the only being with the right to judge and man takes it upon himself to act with God's authority way too damn much...

"God is the only being with the right to judge" ... You know, it's too bad God didn't pass down His Word to man, so that we may also know what's right and wrong. That would have made things so much easier, wouldn't it?

*sighs* No. It wasn't jokey at secondary school - you were bullied if there was even the smallest of chances you were gay or bisexual.

Or short, or tall, or skinny, or fat, or freckled, or ugly, or wore glasses, or had big feet, or had hairy legs, or had bad cothes, or ...

Everyone but the teachers were against you.

You mean *gasp* kids get teased? Oh, the humanity!

You know, it's a good thing our parents didn't have to get teased when they were in school, think of how they would have turned out!

Since when was being gay or bisexual a dysfunction. Maybe in the Bible, it's a dysfunction, but that was written well over a few undred years ago. Get with the time buddy.

I'm not talking about it being a moral dysfunction, I'm talking about it being a natural dysfunction. Check out a biology class, maybe you'll figure it out.

Oh, and back to the Bible... I agree with Silver. God didn't write the Bible, hell, didn't even have a say in what went in the bloody thing.

Says who?

He is the one who supposedly created Earth, and everything on it, so don't you think He should be getting more credit than the Bible?

What Christian worships the Bible, but not God?

Oh, and if Christians can't even follow the "messages" in the Bible, what do you think they are going to make of God when he makes an appearence? Kiss his ass and forget the Bible, or will it be the Bible they still worship more?

... what the hell are you getting at, here?

I know CATHLIC guys that look at porno. Nuff said.

First of all, I said Christian. Second, anecdotal evidence is worth nothing. And third, you still didn't answer my question.

I sure hope that was a sarci comment.

Yes. Nix made a comment about how we're not "free" because we can't slander.

[Furore]

Tolerance -- not acceptance. There's a difference between, "Timmy's different, but we can't treat him mean for it," and, "Timmy's not different."

Well whatever makes a person feel better for discriminating against others. If something like that helps you sleep at night, good for you. Though I do recall a lot of the New Testament preaching love for Sinners rather than the big T, in fact I don't think the actual word was used much if at all. But my point is, if a person is discriminating against someone and that leads to them feeling victimised, there ain't no love there.

Did Jesus go around discriminating against homosexuals in the bible? NO! In fact he hung out with sinners and people deemed scummy by the rest of the populous. Did he do what they did himself? No. But he didn't provoke or hassle them neither. He was chill, they were chill and perhaps his way of communicating amicably and staying chill had the biggest impact of all. God shows himself through benevolent acts after all.

I'm not saying they shouldn't be allowed to live like they want to. I'm saying they shouldn't expect others to go out of their way to pretend that them living the way they want to is normal.

Fair enough. But wouldn't the better solution be to ignore or accept it rather than making them feel like shit about it to the point where parts of society see homosexuality as an excuse to target a person?

And does an individual Christian gain any virtue from acts against homosexuals or any other sinner? Last I checked it was virtuous to do things involving faith, hope, charity and agape love. Agape love is the truer kind one may feel for his family and other men as opposed to that which leads to sinful lust. Christ sacrificing himself for us was a stunning example of agape love. Love your neighbour and all, y'know?

You're talking about a disability, not something like homosexuality. And while it's uncalled for and illegal, there's nearly always some logic to it. Hell, I've had a potential employer refuse to hire me because I'm in the Army, which means I'd be unavailable for a few days a month and a couple weeks a year, with the possibility of being deployed for more than a year. Stupid? Yes. Illegal? Yes. Illogical? Not really.

So? In the context I used it, it's a valid example. You can have a person disabled in a way that wouldn't affect his choice of work and a healthy 'normal' person will be picked ahead of him most of the time, even if less qualified. You can help being in the army. A person with a disability cannot help that they have one and a person may not be able to help their sexual preference neither. Even if sexuality is changable as some science might suggest, look at the reality. How many people want their sexuality changed due to what other people might want and is that not a violation of freedom if it were in place?

Hell, the same thing could be said for women. If you throw legality out the window, who would you rather have working for you -- a man, or a woman? Both could do the job equally well, but with a man, you wouldn't be forced to give more days off for her to take care of her children (as mothers are usually the ones that do that, as opposed to fathers), and you wouldn't be forced to waste time and money training somebody that might be out for months at a time if she gets pregnant.

Depends on the job and the individual honestly. Individual? Well I'd prefer the 7' ogre woman over the 4' stammering midgit man for a construction job any day. Is that discriminatory? Damn right it is. But with an occupation, there's a clear end result and you want the best one. With matters of sexuality and such the thing at stake is a person's quality of life, their dignity and their right to live as they see fit just like anyone else. Though I feel a bit of ribbing in schools is good for kids as it conditions them for the workplace which is much the same a good deal of the time, I think kids should be able to be who they want to be and tolerance AND acceptance should be taught to all. It can only be a good thing looking at what has happened to many victims over things like race, sexuality and any other superficial things.

Now, because I wasn't hired, or because an employer might rather hire a man, does that mean they hate the Army, or hate women?

Nope, just discrimination that can be justified for an organisation's desired goal. Oh it sucks, but life can be full of shit, some which could possibly be lessened or even possibly removed if people stop being douchebags on a mass scale.

And they can do just that, if they want to. Just like you can act poorly towards those you disagree with.

Damn straight. But I shouldn't and I recognise this. I'm a sinner who just does what he feels is best, and in the end I feel God will recognise that. But I see many of my sins as justifiable even if wrong in the grand scheme of things and that in itself is a comfort. And I give of myself quite often, so hopefully that'll weigh in my favour. But whatever. C'est la vie and all y'know?

"Targetting"? For what?

For them being homosexual. Or is it just a coincidence homosexuals are in the firing line and it's really that all of them have a similar birth mark or something else that categorises them?

"God is the only being with the right to judge" ... You know, it's too bad God didn't pass down His Word to man, so that we may also know what's right and wrong. That would have made things so much easier, wouldn't it?

It's too bad the word he did pass down is so open to interpretation. But that's also the beauty of it. There's often so many layers that more wisdom can be gained from later reading. Possibly as humans likely lack the ability to comprehend God directly due to our limitations. That's merely speculation however... But using you as an example, do you yourself act towards others as Jesus did? I'm aware I can be quite morally ambiguous at times, but at least I see some things fairly clearly.

Or short, or tall, or skinny, or fat, or freckled, or ugly, or wore glasses, or had big feet, or had hairy legs, or had bad cothes, or ...

To a different extent most of the time. Gay as a word with negative connotations has been used very commonly these days. eg 'He's gay', 'That's gay', 'How gay' etc. Hell, even homosexual is sometimes. 'Don't be a ****ing homo' is one I've heard a few times, often used to describe someone too scared to do something.

You mean *gasp* kids get teased? Oh, the humanity!

And kids being as impressionable as they are will take it upon themselves to be discriminatory if taught it's ok. Probably the reason (or a good deal of it)
racial and sexual discriminations have lasted as long as they have.

You know, it's a good thing our parents didn't have to get teased when they were in school, think of how they would have turned out!

Very true. Older people who lived in less tolerant times are often more likely to be discriminatory old geezers. Not always however as some were open enough to realise that we're not that different and we should just get along nicely.

I'm not talking about it being a moral dysfunction, I'm talking about it being a natural dysfunction. Check out a biology class, maybe you'll figure it out.

So, erectile dysfunction? I googled natural dysfunction and that's what came up pretty much the most. I only googled it as I don't recall learning that sexuality in humans is a natural dysfunction. I do recall hearing it was a problem when it stopped a species of animal from reproducing, but also recall that the tools a creature uses are part of it's defining characteristics and that humans have invented such tools as artifical insemination and the like which would allow homosexuals to produce geneticly related offspring. Or a homosexual could just adopt which is an amazing act of agape love which would give a needy child a home.

Says who?

Says God not literally picking up a pen and writing a book. No, we know the bible comes from God through select humans. Much the same as a holy vision is communication between God and some human designated as holy messenger boy/girl. Or were Matthew, Mark, Luke and John God's pen names?

First of all, I said Christian. Second, anecdotal evidence is worth nothing. And third, you still didn't answer my question.

Catholicism is a form of Christianity. Second, to some people real world evidence beats speculation. And third, BWWWWUURRRRRRR. No but really, what question do you want answered? I might be able to help you, but couldn't be effed finding the one in question. And give it to me as a straight up single bodied question to avoid ambiguity. It'll likely make my answer more clear.

Yes. Nix made a comment about how we're not "free" because we can't slander.

Nix is not equal to God therefore acknowledging his teachings is a form of false Idolatry and Christians see that as bad. Humans are fallible, God is not.

I think that bullying is a right of passage in school. Everyone gets bullied over something in school. It's up to you to figure out how to make it stop. Once you do, the bully leaves you alone and you win. It's been that way for generations and generations. Yes it is a problem, but these problems usually have a way of working themselves out. Usually the bully gets left behind a grade and is no longer your problem or winds up in jail. It's all about karma.

Damn straight, and what I believe myself more or less. It's a conditioning tool and without it you can really **** yourself over for later in life.

What Christian group or organization states as their policy or collective opinion that homosexuality is more acceptable in females than it is in males?

How many more males than females who were homosexual have been seriously victimised at the hands of some considering themselves Christian? And I'm talking more than just verbally. A conservative guess is fine.

Just because a Christian group or organisation puts rules or policies forwards does not mean the individuals need to take notice of them and that's quite clearly visible.

[Pete]

hahaha nix, rocky was joking.

and for the record any ***** is great *****... except if its old and/or hairy. though i'm a fan of college ***** myself. still fresh and a little more experienced.

[Furore]

Do teachers and the like ever do shit anyways?

I mean I think it's great there'll be a guideline for encouraging tolerance and all, but how many kids ever did follow the rules that much? I mean BESIDES the overly smart people who get all the good jobs and are generally better people than all of us. You know, the smart boring ones who have no fun?

Ribbing and a little bullying toughen a person up and teach them valuable skills for later on in life. Maybe other ways work too, but I never seen it in action.

As far as a Christian group denying the kids a chance at a better experience and the chance to be who they want, **** off mates. People need some damn empathy.

As far as sexuality goes, there's gonna be some into that shit even from really young ages as some kids start earlier than others. Sometimes it ****s people up in the long run, but it happened before, it's happening now and I'll be damn surprised if it stops any good deal any time soon.

[Cheesevixen]

Don't really know what to think about the subject. Everyone made really good points. In my mind school is like work. In order to create a good work environment you have to have some kind of tolerance level toward people different from you. The ones that cross the boundaries more than likely are the first to go, and these "bullies" will learn that then if not now.

True you can't stop bullying in schools, but it is always a good idea to have some moral backing that children can look to for guidance. I had a lot of problems with teachers taking the bullying children s side...so to me having a rule that limits what a teacher can an cannot push on a young mind is great.

Tolerance needs to be explained to children somehow, and not many parents will accurately do that. Honestly, you don't know how a rule like that will effect children. For some it will help direct them, and for others it will be a joke. It's no different than real life. I can't kick someone out of my store because they are black, or call them a homo while ringing them up..life doesn't work that way.After work it is my choice whether to do those things. Its the same with these children and teachers. If in "real" life they want to be dicks than so be it, but school is not the place, and school should be a small safe haven where they come to learn.

As far as the sex thing. It's a distraction in school...work...everywhere. Either way people will be angry or ignore it. I know tons of couples that met in the work place...high school sweethearts...it happens. Just a part of our primal make up.

[Unknown Entity]

Let me just ask ... does making a "gay joke" make somebody a "homophobe"?

*sighs* No. It wasn't jokey at secondary school - you were bullied if there was even the smallest of chances you were gay or bisexual. Everyone but the teachers were against you. At college, its more of a jokey/teasy atmoshere, but you aren't being forced away from everyone. Do you really think I'd be hanging out with a bunch of homophobes, or people that made me feel uncomfortable about my sexuality? No, I wouldn't think so.

Just because somebody doesn't agree with a particular dysfunction doesn't mean they "hate" people who have it.

Since when was being gay or bisexual a dysfunction. Maybe in the Bible, it's a dysfunction, but that was written well over a few undred years ago. Get with the time buddy.

It's too bad the Bible doesn't say anything like, "love the sinner" ... OH WAIT.

Oh, and back to the Bible... I agree with Silver. God didn't write the Bible, hell, didn't even have a say in what went in the bloody thing. He is the one who supposedly created Earth, and everything on it, so don't you think He should be getting more credit than the Bible? Oh, and if Christians can't even follow the "messages" in the Bible, what do you think they are going to make of God when he makes an appearence? Kiss his ass and forget the Bible, or will it be the Bible they still worship more?

What Christian groups have protested homosexuality in males, but not in females?

Please. I want to see this. People who realize that homosexuality is abnormal (often labeled "homophobes") very rarely say anything about how queer guys are bad, but lesbians are good. I want to see something from any sort of Christian group that says that.

I know CATHLIC guys that look at porno. Nuff said.

Are you trying to make a point, or are you actually asking a question? If it's the latter, your answer is yes. No Biblical missionary group would say, "well, we would have given food to your starving family, but that little one looks a little limp-wristed, so you're gonna have to keep fending for yourselves. That'll learn ya."

It was acually a point, so you wasted your time with that statement. I also wasn't saying that a Christain would not feed a family if they thought one was gay - would they help the starving gay guy and show him the same respect as everyone else.

What? You mean I'm not allowed to dishonor your name and lie about you, causing personal harm to your life, career, reputation, or livelihood? I'M NOT FREE!

I sure hope that was a sarci comment.

And that's just one example, people in general often do act poorly towards those they don't understand or agree with. My least favourite people? Those crazy minority Christians who believe artificially created humans have no soul. Like little ol' IVF fertilised me. But thanks to the wonderful law system here I can just stick my finger up at them and make retarded moaning/groaning noises.

Yarp, I agree. I guess some (notice I said some, and put it in bold) Christians wouldn't no a good thing if it came up behind them and bit them on the arse.

[RamesesII]

Like chez daja said seriously school is for learning not all this crap. What happened to the good old days where school taught children manners and discipline when you would get a whip for being naughty or bullying etc

[Unknown Entity]

Like chez daja said seriously school is for learning not all this crap. What happened to the good old days where school taught children manners and discipline when you would get a whip for being naughty or bullying etc

I'd bring back the whip too. Give teachers more power over lug-head bullies!

[Cheesevixen]

I'm not like a "peace and love" type of person, but I find this thread getting more religious by the second. It's not "who" disagreed with the schools ruling. Whether they be Christians or Atheists. Neither is a discussion about "if's, and's, or but's". The only thing that matters here is whether or not schools should be allowed to tell a child whether it is appropriate or not to make fun of another student because they are different from them. We teach our children everyday what they can and cannot do in order for them to grow up and have some type of moral standing. I don't think it's wrong for the schools to want to get involved with that. If the Christians think so than fine. The answer will be found in the results not the opinions of religious beliefs. I don't see the harm in telling a child not to call someone a dyke, or to open there eye's a little and look deeper into a persons personality not their sexual preference. I do see a problem with the issue never being discussed by the adults that children are supposed to look to for guidance out of fear that it may condemn your child to hell. At the very least I see a problem with telling a child they can't bring a same sex date to the dances.

And FYI Sassy, I love you however....I would totally be fired on the spot for hanging a sign like that up. Kinda makes me want to though..hate my job lol

[Unknown Entity]

Or short, or tall, or skinny, or fat, or freckled, or ugly, or wore glasses, or had big feet, or had hairy legs, or had bad cothes, or ...

Maybe yes, but being gay in a single sex school makes it worse.

You mean *gasp* kids get teased? Oh, the humanity!

You know, it's a good thing our parents didn't have to get teased when they were in school, think of how they would have turned out!

Maybe if there were a few less people like you around, the bullying would stop. :/

Oh, and I am well aware that my generation wasn't the first generation to be bullied over sexuality. My mother and father probably did get bullied, but have you seen anyone step forward with solution yet?

I'm not talking about it being a moral dysfunction, I'm talking about it being a natural dysfunction. Check out a biology class, maybe you'll figure it out.

Kinda tough doing a programming course. Unless you want me start disecting frogs in an IT room, I'm pretty sure we can leave it at that.

Says who?

So says the f**king hamster in my head! Who is to say God DID in fact have a say of what went in the Bible?

What Christian worships the Bible, but not God?

Tsk, I said He should get more credit. Not that Christians worship the Bible. :/

... what the hell are you getting at, here?

Should be obvious. Some Christians aren't as Saintly as your average atheist. Christians follow the Bible, but just aren't very good at it. When God comes, what do you think he is going to say when he sees the state the world is in?

First of all, I said Christian. Second, anecdotal evidence is worth nothing. And third, you still didn't answer my question.

I know you did! I just thought I'd give you a reason to dig at my post again. You know, its kinda nice, this little row. Don't you think? :/

From my own personal experience, I have come to the conclusion that Catholics are more strict than Christians. But of course, you'll have something to say about that won't you? Only, this thread wasn't supposed to be about religion. :/

And your question? Fair enough, one point to you. Males in general - not just Christian males - have a tendancy to like lesbians. Two. On the same bed. Perfectly normal, but if it is a Christian against gay people, then do you see the fault?

Yes. Nix made a comment about how we're not "free" because we can't slander.

Oh good.

I'm not like a "peace and love" type of person, but I find this thread getting more religious by the second.

I think you are right. I don't know who started off the religious theme in here, but I sure as hell hope it wasn't me.

At the very least I see a problem with telling a child they can't bring a same sex date to the dances.

I agree. However, some people have different parents, who hold different opinions on this, and thats how kids get bullied about stuff like this. I think it is sad.

[Sasquatch]

Maybe yes, but being gay in a single sex school makes it worse.

So does being poor in a richer area, or being from another state, or looking different than everybody else, or talking different than everybody else. It's called "being different". Most of us have had to deal with it.

You were picked on because of your sexuality. I was picked on because I was a scrawny, shy kid with a lisp, divorced parents, old cheap clothes, and a yankee accent in a Southern state. Boo-friggin'-hoo.

Maybe if there were a few less people like you around, the bullying would stop. :/

Maybe you need to stop making ignorant assumptions.

Oh, and I am well aware that my generation wasn't the first generation to be bullied over sexuality.

... or anything (i.e. everything) else.

My mother and father probably did get bullied, but have you seen anyone step forward with solution yet?

Well there are some things that work, but for the most part, when you're discussing children, immaturity is at the forefront. You can't force people who are immature in every way to be mature about specific things. Until the Age of Consent, drinking age, driving age, voting age, and more are lowered to about 12, 12-year-olds to act like 12-year-olds.

Kinda tough doing a programming course. Unless you want me start disecting frogs in an IT room, I'm pretty sure we can leave it at that.

That's why the rest of us went through high school.

So says the f**king hamster in my head! Who is to say God DID in fact have a say of what went in the Bible?

Umm ... God says.

Unless you don't believe the Bible at all, in which case, it doesn't really matter, does it?

Tsk, I said He should get more credit. Not that Christians worship the Bible. :/

Sorry, the "or will it be the Bible they still worship more?" kind of threw me off. Nobody "worships" the Bible -- they respect it as His word.

Should be obvious. Some Christians aren't as Saintly as your average atheist. Christians follow the Bible, but just aren't very good at it.

Some Christians aren't very good at it. Most, granted. I guess it's a good thing we don't have to be perfect.

When God comes, what do you think he is going to say when he sees the state the world is in?

Well, I would think that He already knows what's going on in the world ... but that's just a hunch.

I know you did! I just thought I'd give you a reason to dig at my post again. You know, its kinda nice, this little row. Don't you think? :/

Don't worry about it, I just have problems with Catholicism.

From my own personal experience, I have come to the conclusion that Catholics are more strict than Christians.

To what? The Bible, or the Church?

And your question? Fair enough, one point to you. Males in general - not just Christian males - have a tendancy to like lesbians. Two. On the same bed. Perfectly normal, but if it is a Christian against gay people, then do you see the fault?

I didn't realize that "males in general" is a Christian group.

So I'll ask again. Maybe it'll be easier to understand if I put it in the form of a question.

What Christian group or organization states as their policy or collective opinion that homosexuality is more acceptable in females than it is in males?

[Pete]

I think that bullying is a right of passage in school. Everyone gets bullied over something in school. It's up to you to figure out how to make it stop. Once you do, the bully leaves you alone and you win. It's been that way for generations and generations. Yes it is a problem, but these problems usually have a way of working themselves out. Usually the bully gets left behind a grade and is no longer your problem or winds up in jail. It's all about karma.

[Unknown Entity]

So, erectile dysfunction? I googled natural dysfunction and that's what came up pretty much the most. I only googled it as I don't recall learning that sexuality in humans is a natural dysfunction. I do recall hearing it was a problem when it stopped a species of animal from reproducing, but also recall that the tools a creature uses are part of it's defining characteristics and that humans have invented such tools as artifical insemination and the like which would allow homosexuals to produce geneticly related offspring. Or a homosexual could just adopt which is an amazing act of agape love which would give a needy child a home.

Thank you! You explained that one so much better than I did - or I would have if I had picked biology at high school. I prefered Chemistry - you know, whorking with dangerous chemicals and making exploding cheese.

I think that bullying is a right of passage in school. Everyone gets bullied over something in school. It's up to you to figure out how to make it stop. Once you do, the bully leaves you alone and you win. It's been that way for generations and generations. Yes it is a problem, but these problems usually have a way of working themselves out. Usually the bully gets left behind a grade and is no longer your problem or winds up in jail. It's all about karma.

Bullying happens at school and in the work place, but it doesn't give anyone the right to bully others. Yes, Sasquatch, I understand everyone is differrent. You could be bullied for being beautiful, all but a mole on your arm for all I care. From what I have seen, most bullys get bored after a week or a month or two of the same "joke" that someone may be taller, shorter or whatever than them. However, when someone comes out of the closet, no one wants to know you, because they are conviced you want to make out with them.

When I hit year 10, I started hanging around with another girl in my year, who was rummored to be a lesbian. I'm not one for listening to rummors, so I ignored it. After a week, I heard a new rummor that me and this girl were partners. I knew we wasn't, so I ignored it, and it did die down after a month. Eventually, no one could even remember it because the next big thing came out - whatever that was. But, it didn't change anyones opinions of this girl.

I hope I explained that one enough using my experience on how being gay or bisexual can be different from having a mole on your arm. The mole bullying - it will die down. Being gay - people hold on to that for a very long time, until they are old enough to understand it all themselves.

Maybe you need to stop making ignorant assumptions.

I apologise, really I do. I know I shouldn't have typed that, I just... did. Ermm... finger slipped? No?

... ok.

[Zargabaath]

I find it funny that me being an athiest, once Catholic, knows christian doctrine better than most christians. God loves everyone, everyone. He does not hate gays/lesbians, he is disappointed in them for straying but he will always forgive them if they mean it, if they ask. God does not want gays to go to hell, he wants them to see the error (in his view) and be in heaven with him. Jesus said love everybody not just christians, yet they forget that it is how sad that so few christians actually practice their doctrine correctly.

[Furore]

I find it funny that me being an athiest, once Catholic, knows christian doctrine better than most christians. God loves everyone, everyone. He does not hate gays/lesbians, he is disappointed in them for straying but he will always forgive them if they mean it, if they ask. God does not want gays to go to hell, he wants them to see the error (in his view) and be in heaven with him. Jesus said love everybody not just christians, yet they forget that it is how sad that so few christians actually practice their doctrine correctly.

Hear, hear. It's one of those things that's completely ****ing hilarious just in a really sad way. But I don't think some of these things are completely about religion. Upbringing and the norms of the society a person lives in will also be big factors. Religion and culture are often that closely interwoven these days that aspects of one are mistaken for another...

[Rydia Lover]

I think this is completely unfair. Discriminating against students is just wrong.
And its really sad to hear this being a Homexual myself, especially when i was discriminated in highschool, when i was refused a prom ticket because my date was a girl.
if human were really intended only to be straight and nothing else, we wouldnt have free will.