The Australian Plebiscite for Marriage Equality

[Rowan]

So we are having a postal vote in Australia to see the majoritys opinion on same sex marriage and its costing the taxpayer 122 million. Anyway, I've done a little more digging because there was something I could not reconcile (and something Alpha had said to me that I didn't understand until yesterday), that marriage is actually separate from religion and has nothing to do with the church. I literally thought if you were not married in a church, a couple had a civil union. I'm not sure why I had thought this all these years, but its clarified a lot of things to me. Now I know that state recognized marriage is also 'marriage' , the church does not have a legal requirement to marry couples if they choose to refuse, why the hell are we denying couples the rights and liberties of heterosexual married couples? I agreed with heartless in the sense that the government is to blame and that church and state shouldn't have been 'muddled' like this, but gay couples should have the same rights as married couples legally. Knowing now that marriage is literally a state recognized law with nothing to do with religion WHATSOEVER, why the hell are we not doing it?


Okay here's my pathetic problem. I am a stubborn piece of shit. Even though I've always believed in equality and the liberty for all, I do however hate the leftist libtards who take things too far with their outrageous and pathetic protests. Its because of their hippy ideals I'm tempted to vote no, just to spite them. However, I then remember that I have a couple of friends who are gay and my vote, if anything, should be being used for them. Secondly, I'm super stubborn and hate admitting that I was wrong to even contemplate not voting yes, even though I did not have all the information.

I'm also now incredibly intrigued to hear an argument against this now. Literally why not?

Here is the worst anti-gay marriage ad we have in Australia at the moment. Even when I was contemplating a no vote, I still could not understand the argument being put fourth in the advertisement. Could someone kindly explain this to me also, please?

[Pete]

I couldn't understand the ad either. Damn kangaroo accents.

I kid.

I think the easiest way to look at gay marriage is very simple. Look yourself in the mirror and ask if it truly affects you. If you're straight, it doesn't; and who cares, let the gays marry. If you're gay, it affects you and you should have the right to marry. Boom. Gay marriage solved.

It's up to the churches if they're willing to perform the ceremony, but that doesn't really matter either. The government is the one truly providing the benefits with a marriage, or civil union, if you feel like marriage is strictly a religious term. People are really only looking for equality, and that's not too hard to accomplish.

I don't understand the ad, and it's slippery slope ideas. It has nothing to do with gay marriage, and the examples provided are vague. It's never stated that any kids were forced to dress up against their will, or that they were forced into assuming same sex relationship roles. It just sounds like schools were being maybe a little too progressive, and touching on subjects that parents weren't comfortable with having their kids learn.

If that's the case, maybe the schools shouldn't be trying to teach lessons about this stuff. Maybe that's the parents decision as to if and when their kids should be informed about different lifestyles. The one message that should be taught from both sides is one of tolerance and acceptance. Pretty sure Jesus wanted everyone to treat each other with love and kindness. Even if you don't agree someones choices or lifestyle, if it doesn't affect you, who cares? But maybe keep bedroom stuff out of the classroom, other than basic sex ed.

It's just as dumb as the "If we let the gays marry, why can't we marry dogs or trees" argument, though. If your kid turns out to be gay, whatever. It wasn't a choice, it wasn't a taught or learned behavior, it's just what it is.

Except for retards with multiple genders and identities. Those people are attention whores and I'm convinced they do more harm than good. You're not an apache helicopter, shut up.

[Master Garland]

Pete what do you mean by people with multiple genders? The people that say they are neither male nor female or non binary, genderfluid etc. What does this statement of yours encompass? I'm a transgender mtf just saying. You have every right to think I'm an attention whore and that my identity is invalid. While I'd also assume the right to think your an attention whore for trying to attract attention from a possible transperson reading your immature comment.

[Pete]

I'm referring to this and the people who believe this is real.



As for your transitioning, you do you. It doesn't affect me, so do your thing.

[Rowan]

Facts don't care about your feelings and the fact is, if you were born with a penis you are a male, and if you are born with a vagina you are a female. You can choose to identify as whatever you want, but dont expect me or anybody else to conform to your definitions of what you want to be.

Its so stupid. I dont walk into centerlink and demand welfare because I identify as an 80 year old retired war vet.

You have psychological issues that need addressing. Normalizing this shit is whats wrong with the world right now.

[Master Garland]

Facts don't care about your feelings and the fact is, if you were born with a penis you are a male, and if you are born with a vagina you are a female. You can choose to identify as whatever you want, but dont expect me or anybody else to conform to your definitions of what you want to be.

Its so stupid. I dont walk into centerlink and demand welfare because I identify as an 80 year old retired war vet.

You have psychological issues that need addressing. Normalizing this shit is whats wrong with the world right now.

Yeah that's you choice to feel that way. Gay people don't have a choice on being attracted to the same sex just like transpeople don't have a choice feeling they were born in the wrong body. You also have the right to identify as a non stupid person while us transpeople identify you as an idiot like you indeed are because your mental idiocy(which is a fact) does not care about your feelings. Good luck calling passable transpeople the wrong pronouns though because sadly for you you can't see our dna... can you lol! I'm sure you have seen plenty of us and never knew it. That's why I indeed get a good laugh at you people when you say that edgy stuff online.

Good job trying to trigger me man.. sadly it didn't work though, you failure.

By the way my issues are being addressed with hrt and srs in the future which is shown to clinically be more effective in treating dysphoria than any other treatment method.

[Rowan]

You suffer from Gender dysphoria. Its classified as a mental disorder. Ill take the word of the APA before I take yours.
Homosexuality isnt a pathology as where gender dysphoria is.

Saying the two are related because 'you dont have a choice' is like saying gay people are the same as the people in the fish in chip shop who wanted to pay $3.50 instead of $5 for their fries; they didn't have a choice.

[Master Garland]

Apparently you have not idea that there is a physiological reason that gender dyshoria exists. Depression is caused by seretonin imbalances or other physically measurable 'chemical' imbalances. Same can be said for other mental conditions or any other number of conditions within the body. Gender dysphoria is caused by brain wiring that is out of sync with the body most likely caused and speculated to be caused by hormone imbalances while developing in the womb according to some experts.

By the way Gender Dyphoria has been removes as a 'mental disorder' quite some time ago it's not it's own separate classification according to the DSM.

[Rowan]

Apparently you have not idea that there is a physiological reason that gender dyshoria exists. Depression is caused by seretonin imbalances or other physically measurable 'chemical' imbalances. Same can be said for other mental conditions or any other number of conditions within the body. Gender dysphoria is caused by brain wiring that is out of sync with the body most likely caused and speculated to be caused by hormone imbalances while developing in the womb according to some experts.

By the way Gender Dyphoria has been removes as a 'mental disorder' quite some time ago it's not it's own separate classification according to the DSM.

Thanks to the PC whiners of our generation, people feel like they are constantly walking on eggshells when it comes to the 'controversial subjects'. Well I really don't give a shit what anyone might think of me because of my opinions; I'd rather be right than wrong. Gender dysphoria is a mental illness. It is something that is diagnosed, something that can be treated and statistics state that trans young people are also 10 times more likely to suffer from serious depression, suicide and anxiety. You can keep telling me I "have no idea" or that im "stupid" etc. but its all meaningless unless you backup your claims. I dont care that you are trans, it doesnt make you an authority on the subject.

Once again, I plead; Stop attempting to normalize mental disorders. Seek help.
Or failing to adhere to anything ive said, answer me this:

How can I go about identifying as a canine so I can justify licking my balls in public?

[Master Garland]

The real whiners are you people that merely whine because transpeople exist around you. Whinning about other peoples gender and identities is about a whiny as you can get. Aaaa whaaa whaa that person is trans and takes hormones how could they 'ruin' the world with their personal emotions and feeling of themselves :sob: and crying like a pathetic weakling about it. Depression and anxiety among trans youth is likely due to not having acceptance(from people like you) from family, loosing friends from it which happens a lot because people are jerks.

I'll provide my data later.

As for the cute little dog bit sadly(for you) you have no genes in your body that can express canine traits through your cells. I'd wish you could fulfill your transcanine identity though but you don't posses the genetic data to express it. Unlike us transgender people that posses the genetic traits of both our male and female parents that can be more strongly expressed by hormones alone. Hence the reason transpeople can look like the identified gender after years of hormones. I look a lot like my grandma did when she was younger because the genes of my female family members are actively expressed on estrogen. Sadly for you it may be 2100 before you can lick your butt hole and balls in public like you want to so badly.. you want the body of the dog to right?? You don't just want to lick your balls right. Being transcanine means you have to have a mind body dysphoria with you human form.

All jokes aside you made me laugh with your silly canine argument.

[Rowan]

My one and only point is that its a mental illness. I proved my point, you've done nothing but whine.

I'll provide my data later and instead wite about how sad you are

[Master Garland]

You did not prove anything with your little abc news link.. silly guy. You have a far more whinny tone than I do.. and you must be pretty much a natural asshole to try and dig up bad feeling in someone that you feel has a 'mental illness.' So you go to people with depression and anxiety and mock them for their fears and depression or try and dig up their weak points? Probably you seem like the kind of classless person that likes to hurt others and posses little to no capability for basic human empathy skills

Hows the life of a psychopath working for you?

[Pete]

I'm still confused about the word Plebiscite.
#'Merican

[Rowan]

You did not prove anything with your little abc news link.. silly guy. You have a far more whinny tone than I do.. and you must be pretty much a natural asshole to try and dig up bad feeling in someone that you feel has a 'mental illness.' So you go to people with depression and anxiety and mock them for their fears and depression or try and dig up their weak points? Probably you seem like the kind of classless person that likes to hurt others and posses little to no capability for basic human empathy skills

Hows the life of a psychopath working for you?

If I was a psychopath, I wouldn't pretend like its not a mental illness.

Keep calling me names, calling me silly, trying to talk down to me; it makes no difference. Empathy for what? I'm supposed to feel sorry for you? FYI, I have empathy. I empathize with the children who are brought up and indoctrinated into believing in a merciless god, I empathize with the poor, the homeless, the downtrodden. I empathize with our troops and their families, both foreign and domestic. I empathize with a lot of different things. One of them however doesn't include men who want to be called women and women who want to be called men.

Edit: Im not going to fucking apologize to YOU, I've said and done nothing wrong. You CHOOSE to take offense to the facts. you owe ME an apology. Firstly for the belittling way you are speaking to me, secondly for derailing my thread with your nonsense.

However I'm not gonna take offense from someone who doesn't even know what sex they are.

[Master Garland]

If I was a psychopath, I wouldn't pretend like its not a mental illness.

Keep calling me names, calling me silly, trying to talk down to me; it makes no difference. Empathy for what? I'm supposed to feel sorry for you? FYI, I have empathy. I empathize with the children who are brought up and indoctrinated into believing in a merciless god, I empathize with the poor, the homeless, the downtrodden. I empathize with our troops and their families, both foreign and domestic. I empathize with a lot of different things. One of them however doesn't include men who want to be called women and women who want to be called men.

Edit: Im not going to fucking apologize to YOU, I've said and done nothing wrong. You CHOOSE to take offense to the facts. you owe ME an apology. Firstly for the belittling way you are speaking to me, secondly for derailing my thread with your nonsense.

However I'm not gonna take offense from someone who doesn't even know what sex they are.

I'm proud of you for having some understanding of others situations.. who'd of thought with your hate for 'some' demographics of people.

The informal definition of a psychopath is one that expresses innate aggression and unstable behavior which you exhibit towards transpeople. I suppose your not ENTIRELY psychopathic just a 'little' hmm it happens I guess.

Did I ask you to apologize to me... that's the last thing I'd want from you and I'd not be inane enough to expect someone that loathes me to apologize anyway. Good job putting words in my mouth. People like you never cease to surprise me.. you assume you know me more than I do AND get this you at the same time put words in people mouths. I guess that makes you an unstable person WITH hallucinations.. and you say I need help; silly guy.

The fact is I had a physiological brain/body dysphoria that has been cured with hrt.. the clinically most successful form of treatment for said issue.

You need to face the facts that you hallucinate, have excess anger issues, and unstable behavior and get consoling or meds for it; unless your happy being a nutcase. By the way transcanine you see anyone for that yet? I addressed my gender identity over 2 years ago just wondering how your dog dysphoria is doing as of late j/k

[Rowan]

You need to face the facts that you hallucinate, have excess anger issues, and unstable behavior and get consoling or meds for it; unless your happy being a nutcase. By the way transcanine you see anyone for that yet? I addressed my gender identity over 2 years ago just wondering how your dog dysphoria is doing as of late j/k

You're right, I must be hallucinating. I'm talking to a man that thinks hes a woman, and that I am apparently a psychopath and nutcase for not acknowledging it.

The irony of you telling me I need medication.

wow.

[Master Garland]

You do though. Or perhaps you severely are lacking in reading comprehension which needs to be addressed in that case.

Hey transcanine you find any gene splicing therapy yet to be able to have your genes posses and express the canine traits you desire. What dog food do you like? What owner are you interested in having? You'll need to consider everything before transitioning to a dog.

Wow.

[Rowan]

Hey transcanine you find any gene splicing therapy yet to be able to have your genes posses and express the canine traits you desire. What dog food do you like? What owner are you interested in having? You'll need to consider everything before transitioning to a dog.

Unlike you, I'm not interested in trying to be something I'm not.
If you took my example as me being serious, then I think you're the one that needs to address their comprehension skills.

Ill leave this here;

[Pete]

I think my biggest concern actually is if my tax dollars are being spent on these treatments. Personally, I don't care who identifies as what. If you think you're a damn pineapple, that's what you think, and God bless. I just don't want to have my tax dollars going to any government programs or clinics that provide free treatments for such a thing. Personally, I consider gender reassignment to be an elective surgery, and thus I don't believe that it should be financed by dollars that I'm getting screwed out of.

I'd much rather see my tax dollars going to useful things like feeding and educating the poor and impoverished people in the Appalachians and fixing the damn roads.

[Master Garland]

I have no interest in Caitlyn Jenner she does not represent me. I like to make light of people like you who bring inane arguments like trans animal trans alien and trans machine in your sad pathetic attempts at humor. Especially considering we have no genes to express those traits within us. Now you set yourself up for me to never let that transcanine ever slip under the rug... your fault Rowan.. I'll have fun with it..... little dog.

Yeah Pete it must be annoying to pay for gender treatment with tax dollars. I hate taxes in general not many good things come about from them. For instance some things I don't want to pay for with tax dollars is abortions, politicians salary police force paychecks, development of weapons of war that I disagree with ugh too many garbage my tax dollars go to.

[Rowan]

Enlighten me, Master Garland. Why do you want to be a woman as opposed to a man? Also, why is it important for people to recognize you as such?

[OceanEyes28]

lmao @ "libtards." Come on, man, that insult is ridiculous.

Rowan, you mentioned the American Psychiatric Association as a trusted source. So, I'll link the full article here, and quote the part about treatment. The recommended treatment for gender dysphoria, according to the APA:

Treatment options for gender dysphoria include counseling, cross-sex hormones, puberty suppression and gender reassignment surgery. Some adults may have a strong desire to be of a different gender and to be treated as a different gender without seeking medical treatment or altering their body. They may only want support to feel comfortable in their gender identity. Others may want more extensive treatment including hormone treatment and gender reassignment surgery leading to a transition to the opposite sex. Some may choose hormone treatment or surgery alone.

Individual therapy can help a person understand and explore his/her/their feelings and cope with the distress and conflict. Couples therapy or family therapy may be helpful to improve understanding and to create a supportive environment. Parents of children with gender dysphoria may also benefit from counseling. Peer support groups for adolescents and adults and parent/family support groups can also be helpful.

A child’s treatment typically involves a multi-disciplinary team of health care professionals, which may include a pediatrician, a psychiatrist, other mental health professionals, a pediatric endocrinologist (specialists in hormone conditions in children) and an advocate. Treatment may focus primarily on affirming psychological support, understanding feelings and coping with distress, and giving children a safe space to articulate their feelings. For many children the feelings do not continue into adolescence and adulthood.

A person may also address social and legal transition to the desired gender.

So, while being a different gender than the one you were biologically assigned is classified as a disorder (because it can cause quite a bit of distress, which is one of the criteria for the disorder), the recommended treatment often involves counseling and figuring out ways to reconcile that difference - often through reassignment surgery so that the outside matches the inside.

What I'm seeing is a lack of compassion for people who are distressed and marginalized. I am not sure how this hatred serves you, but perhaps you can explain it to me.

And Pete, the only tax dollars going toward gender reassignment surgery that I am aware of would be for soldiers. We often foot medical bills for our soldiers. Gender reassignment surgery would cost an estimated $2.4 million to $8.4 million a year, which seems like a lot until you compare it to the estimated $84.24 million spent on erectile dysfunction pills (for example). Erectile dysfunction is worth helping our soldiers out with, but let's not act like it's crucial, life saving medical care. Our military budget is in the trillions. If tax dollars being spent on gender reassignment surgery bothers you but tax dollars being spent on Viagra doesn't, then it isn't really the tax dollars that are the problem. Or perhaps that bothers you, too, and we should all strive for a libertarian paradise, idk.


Oh. And.
I'd imagine she wants to present as a woman because she is one, just like you prefer presenting as a man because you are one. If you can let go of the idea that genitals = gender, it will make it easier. You remember that soldier who got his bottom half blown off? He's still a man because that's how he identifies. It's important to use the right pronouns because it's respectful. A big reason the suicide rate you're concerned about is so high in the trans community is because of a lack of respect and validation.
From the NIH website:

Results:
The suicide attempt rate among transgender persons ranges from 32% to 50% across the countries. Gender-based victimization, discrimination, bullying, violence, being rejected by the family, friends, and community; harassment by intimate partner, family members, police and public; discrimination and ill treatment at health-care system are the major risk factors that influence the suicidal behavior among transgender persons.

...

Suicide prevention – the recommendations

The interventions and programs to enhance protective factors and resiliency factors are as important as programs for risk reduction; these interventions should be delivered through cultural competence approach[25,27] and should be more LGBT inclusive[26] which help an agency, system, or a professional to work effectively in cross-cultural situations.

The suicide prevention interventions and programs for all youth can also be implemented for LGBT individuals mainly in three settings, schools (suicide awareness curricula), communities (gate-keeper training) and health-care system (screening) and crisis centres, hotlines, and risk reduction which can include restricted access to lethal means, media training, and youth life-skills training also can be part of it.[7,25] Community awareness campaigns, discrimination and hate crime legislations, culturally and age appropriate suicide prevention interventions[28] including peer-based outreach, counseling and referrals,[9] targeting the institutions such as schools, family, community, health-care system,[25] police and judiciary,[11] effective treatment for symptoms of hopelessness, depression, conduct disorder, family-based interventions to enhance the support and reduce the victimization,[21] effective intervention in addressing high rates of HIV infection, multiple and complex high-risk behavior and comorbid conditions,[27] addressing sociocultural factors such as LGBT assault hate crimes at the neighborhood[22] providing educational and resource materials on LGBT suicide to the LGBT organizations and encourage these organizations to consider suicide prevention at their organizations' mission and activities,[26] all these would help in achieving increased societal acceptance of the transgender community and decreased gender-based prejudice and also in the promotion of mental health and reduction of suicidal risk among transgender community.

No comment on the rest of the comments in this thread because woof.

[Rowan]

lmao @ "libtards." Come on, man, that insult is ridiculous.

Rowan, you mentioned the American Psychiatric Association as a trusted source. So, I'll link the full article here, and quote the part about treatment. The recommended treatment for gender dysphoria, according to the APA:

So, while being a different gender than the one you were biologically assigned is classified as a disorder (because it can cause quite a bit of distress, which is one of the criteria for the disorder), the recommended treatment often involves counseling and figuring out ways to reconcile that difference - often through reassignment surgery so that the outside matches the inside.

So what I'm still continuing to understand from this, is that it is a treatment. Treatments are given to disorders. This supports my point, although I'm not sure that was your intention when mentioning this.

What I'm seeing is a lack of compassion for people who are distressed and marginalized. I am not sure how this hatred serves you, but perhaps you can explain it to me.

The 'hatred' stems from various things. The main one is ignoring facts to placate someones feelings. Normalizing mental disorders because you don't want to hurt peoples feelings is backwards. Its just like the new law that's come in (at least in Australia) where doctors are no longer allowed to tell their patients they are obese when they are, as to not hurt their feelings. Its normalizing these disorders that creates ridiculous things such as not being able to tell someone they need to lose weight. Dont confuse this with lack of empathy. Its hard to empathise with people who demand I call them something they are biologically not (that includes being born a man and wanting to identify as a woman).

I'd imagine she wants to present as a woman because she is one, just like you prefer presenting as a man because you are one. If you can let go of the idea that genitals = gender, it will make it easier

I don't identify as a man, I am a man. As soon as you let go of the idea you can choose what to identify as, it will make it easier.
"but isn't gender a social construct?"
It is to the extent that boys play with cars and girls play with dolls. Gender nonconformity is not a mental illness, gender dysphoria is. I disagree with the approach to treatment. I think its a psychological illness that requires psychiatric therapy, not an attempt at sating their preference with transitional hormone therapy.

You remember that soldier who got his bottom half blown off? He's still a man because that's how he identifies. It's important to use the right pronouns because it's respectful.

Hes a man because he was born a biological male. You need to stop with this idea that you can change what you are by losing or gaining genitals. And I'm also a little confused why you would use this example since your focus is mainly towards gender as opposed to sex.

A big reason the suicide rate you're concerned about is so high in the trans community is because of a lack of respect and validation.
From the NIH website:

I wasn't considering responding until I read this. This is the main reason for my response.

This is utterly misleading. What you and this source are purporting is that the reason for the increased rate of suicide in trans people is "Gender-based victimization, discrimination, bullying, violence, being rejected by the family, friends, and community; harassment by intimate partner, family members, police and public; discrimination and ill treatment at health-care system are the major risk factors that influence the suicidal behavior among transgender persons."

All of these reasons can be applied to non-trans people, including gender based discrimination. So the study is false in the sense that it fails to explain why trans people are at a higher rate of suicide than those who are victims of each of those types of bullying. I can only conclude to my original statement that it is in fact a mental illness that causes instability that results in depression and high rate of suicide in comparison to non-trans victims of all of those types of bullying (upto 50% higher rates of suicide). Furthermore, there are support groups for trans people. Where are the support groups for the people with buck teeth, obesity, who are just plain ugly?


I really don't appreciate being labelled as a hate filled , non-empathetic vitreous person. I care a lot, maybe too much. However its easy to see that my care is sometimes not where most persons would usually reside. My whole life I just want to stop people from having to experience terrible things. I cant imagine what its like to feel like a woman trapped in a mans body, or vice versa. However, I wont concede to this as normal behavior so future generations are going to think that its okay to be this way, because its not. You might think to yourself "well if everyone thought it was okay, then there'd be no problem", It will never, ever be this way and you're naive to think so. Not only that, I believe the reason for depression and suicide is unrelated to bullying, as per my example. It might be a factor, but there no study that explains why trans have higher rates of suicide compared to non-trans bullied people.

[Master Garland]

Most trans related suicides are caused by loosing loved ones and friends and social circles because of merely transitioning to the gender one knows they should have been. I know transpeople that have lost jobs, spouses, friends and ever family for just transitioning to be happy yeah loosing all that makes anyone sad. Another big factor is most transpeople are 'late' transitioners so they end up not 'passing' very well or at all in rare cases leading to dysphoria being still present leading to suicide. Granted even non passing transpeople that actually have a strong support group and are lucky enough to not be discriminated against rarely end their lives in suicide. It's all about support and acceptance and not purposefully misgendering us and insulting us to be vindictive.

I know that I am personally happier now that I look female and now that my body runs on female hormones than I ever was as a masculine ,man. Estrogen itself seemed to makes my mind at ease after a while. This is a fact that transitioning has healed me mentally and physically and your outside non psychic opinion cannot change that Rowan. Sorry but I 'know' myself way better than you do as all us transpeople do and I don't need ant form of study to tell me otherwise.