Your thoughts on bullying

[Leon]

Though I'd give another crack at the ID forum.

Anyway, I've been thinking about this today. What are your thoughts on bullying? Have you ever been a victim of bullying? Have you ever bullied someone? And, since most of the bullying -- if not all of it -- takes place in school, do you think parents are to blame for letting it happen? Or maybe the teachers? Who's really at fault?

Too many questions, I know. Truth is, I got picked on a lot in school, since 4th grade. I was a weird kid, which is probably why I was a victim most of the time (now I just respond with a sarcastic remark). I was miserable in school, and I don't have many people I would actually call "friend".

Because of all that, I strongly oppose bullying. Doesn't matter who you are, if you pick on someone, you won't hear the end of it from me.

Now, when I look at all these news about teens killing themselves because of bullying, it makes me wonder who's at fault. The bullies themselves, especially if they are at the age they can tell right from wrong? The teachers, who only warn the bullies to stop with the verbal abuse? Or the parents, who don't raise their children right?

Sometimes I don't think it's the parents, since some kids can grow to be pretty rebellious. And teachers have never been much help to me. I recall a time in my senior year (even then I was bothered) when three students couldn't stop tormenting me during one of my classes. I remember crying that day when I was alone, and the teacher from a different class told me to go to a counselor. It took a counselor to have those guys stop (she mailed the teacher who had those guys in his class, the same class where they picked on me).

Sorry if I keep mentioning what happened to me, but I think it's best to describe my feelings from personal experience. So what do you think? What are your thoughts on bullying and any form of it, like verbal abuse and just plain violence?

[Furore]

I've always hated it, but it seems very deeply ingrained in a lot of societies these days (and for decades if not longer).

I hear your experiences though, when I was a kid I used to get picked on all the time. The trouble was I was a pacifist, had a name that when anglicized sounds like something else and a neurological condition that isn't plainly evident that a teacher just had to talk about in front of everyone. The trouble with me though, was there was only so many times I could get the crap kicked out of me til I snapped. When that happened I became a bit of a bully myself.

But here's the kicker. I only ever targeted the bullies.
And this, wasn't so good. The guy who said that violence begets violence was a chap who knew where it was at. People often want retribution and if bullying you won't work they might just target others. In the end I went for a pacifistic approach, though defend myself and my friends whenever needed. Seems to work more than anything else.

I applaud you for speaking up on bullying though, most won't. Don't let the authorities who overlook it or are manipulated by the bullies stop you and all the people that matter will think you a top bloke for doing it. That's the other problem though. Some people in power don't want to hear about it or are on good terms with the bullies (or their parents). They're just as big a part of the problem as the bullies themselves, especially when they resort to bullying to try and shut you up. It takes a big man to look out for others.

Who's to blame? In my opinion society. The better part of society allows bullying to run more or less unchecked, and many people from many walks of life either bully or are effected by it. Of the top of my head I've helped a student bullied by a teacher, students bullied by groups of students, people that found themselves in the wrong part of town, crims who were decent people bullied by dogs (bad cops), co-workers bullied by a few other workers and a few net people bullied online. A good part of the trouble is society in general also often accepts weak reasons from bullies. Things like hazing, it's only the Internet, how we were raised, but he's a dog, I wasn't being serious etc etc etc.

[Heartless Angel]

Bullying is another thing I've always been relatively apatetic towards. I was often a victim of bullies in my younger years. I usually didn't give them a second thought, and moved on with my life. If they got too serious, I just went and reported it. I also didn't try to blame everybody else for my problems. I was a wierd kid by choice, bullying was simply a consequence of the way I chose to be. Had I wanted it to stop, I could've just conformed to everybody else, but being myself was more valuable to me than being left alone.

Bullying is also another things that people continously look for somebody else to blame for. Bullying is the fault of bullies. You want to get mad at somebody, you get mad at the little asshat doing it, not everybody else for failing to protect you and watch over you 24 hours a day. Help comes to those who ask for it. If you don't tell anybody it's happening, it isn't their responsibility to know about it and fix it. Yeah, if a teacher is staring right at you when some kick pushes you on the ground and takes your lunch money, and doesn't do anything about it, then I'd go so far as to say they've done something wrong.

[Angel of Iniquity]

Bullying is another thing I've always been relatively apatetic towards. I was often a victim of bullies in my younger years. I usually didn't give them a second thought, and moved on with my life. If they got too serious, I just went and reported it. I also didn't try to blame everybody else for my problems. I was a wierd kid by choice, bullying was simply a consequence of the way I chose to be. Had I wanted it to stop, I could've just conformed to everybody else, but being myself was more valuable to me than being left alone.

Bullying is also another things that people continously look for somebody else to blame for. Bullying is the fault of bullies. You want to get mad at somebody, you get mad at the little asshat doing it, not everybody else for failing to protect you and watch over you 24 hours a day. Help comes to those who ask for it. If you don't tell anybody it's happening, it isn't their responsibility to know about it and fix it. Yeah, if a teacher is staring right at you when some kick pushes you on the ground and takes your lunch money, and doesn't do anything about it, then I'd go so far as to say they've done something wrong.

Well, Hmm...
Interesting.
I have been bullied from 6th grade, 7th grade and 8th grade.

And I have a different outlook on life, tho I can understand in a sense.
But, The bully bullies from bad parenting, which can be pointed to bad culturing, which can be pointed to the bad society then government, then on and on.
I personally became... "heartless" lol, towards other people. I can care less about others problems, and I personally laugh at insignificant death, some say I'm ridiculously rude or cold, but you can't argue that these events, especially if during the majors times of a child's growth, causes mental problems or personality disorders, which are out of their control, which alter their outlook.

Tell me, is it wrong that I have the heart to snap a babies neck, but cannot bring myself to kill a puppy? LOL makes no sense lol, but to me it does.
Humans have a choice in life.
However, even tho my incident has a large impact, I highly agree with you not reflecting back on it. I think I'll just kill them, no need for the rest of these impertinent creatures ^^

[The Dark Crystal]

I taught myself at a young age, that if you bullied someone you were trying to block out/cover up your own insecurities, problems, or bulling you had done to yourself at one time.

Though never being bullied at school myself, i was as a little child (4-6 yrs of age) by my uncle, who was not much older then me at the time. He was also bullied by his siblings as a child.

After bulling people myself, at a young age, I started to realize this and started taking up for those that were being bullied, and even got into quite a bit of scraps doing so.

[Shiro]

I was bullied relentlessly throughout school. It had positive and negative benefits:

The positive: when I was in 1st grade I had terrible seperation anxiety, and would cry hysterically if my mother was not on time to pick me up. I believed she'd forgotten me. My classmates laughed at me and called me a crybaby. To stop their taunts, I began to hold in my tears and wait patiently for my mom. Their teasing forced me to get over my anxiety.

The negative: Once I reached high school, I was ostracised for many things - I was brought up a Jehovah's Witness, and was kept seperate from the other children, which made socialising extremely difficult. I was an awkward child who battled to make friends and had acne. I was called ugly, a freak and told that I'd never get a boyfriend and no one would ever like me. A boy once said to me, "You're so ugly, I want to vomit when I see you." In a desperate attempt to prove I wasn't repulsive, I would hang on to every boy who ever took notice of me, and brag loudly about how I had a boyfriend, and even went as far as to lie to everyone that I'd lost my virginity, so that "proved" that someone could want me. Of course, I then changed from being the "ugly freak" to "the ugly slut". Once I realised that nothing I did would make those hollow souls accept me, I turned against them, and did everything I could to make them feel as horrible as they could about themselves. They called me names, I called them names. I got into fights and spread rumours about the girls. In essence, I had become "one of them".

Now that high school is a distant memory (I graduated 6 years ago) I sometimes find myself thinking just how big an effect bullying had on me. I lamented to a friend that I still found myself looking in the mirror and hearing their voices, telling me how disgusting I was. My friend said to me - which was hard to hear - "But the reason it affected you so much was because you LET it affect you". And it hit me like a brick: I HAD let it get to me. Six years after leaving school, I still let it get to me.

So my opinion of bullying is, you can only let it affect you as much as you allow it to. The physical and emotional wounds will only heal if you allow yourself to accept that we were all children, remorseless, selfish children who have not learnt to take other people's feelings into consideration yet. Obviously if the bullying becomes extreme or violent, steps must be taken, but bullying has been a part of society for many years and to me is an ingrained aspect of human nature. It doesn't end at your school graduation either, bullying continues into the working world, just in different forms. By then we are a lot more emotionally mature and are usually able to let it go by without it affecting us too much.

[Selcopa]

I'm for bullying, I know its not a popular position, but it's a reality of the world we live in and it does toughen a person up. But as Shiro said, its not like bullying suddenly stops at any point, better to start with Suzie Q saying i have cooties and building a tolerance, to when it actually gets more significant.

Bullying targets weakness, you can be the weird kid and not be bullied, I played chess with the nerds in the library, I banged a cheerleader, Played hockey, played world of warcraft, hung out with friends doing everything, did a bit of bullying myself actually. Its a matter of confidence, and not taking someones shit if someone challenges you. Being a pacifist doesnt mean you have to take someone's shit, it doesn't mean you have to throw down even, you can chose to be the 'weird kid' and not be bullied, I know I was that person.

I was actually homeschooled up until high school, even was a bit socially awkward at first, being good at hockey helped me out alot, but I did get bullied by one kid a little bit freshman year, granted I thought the kid had a slight case of down syndrome, or something just wasnt quite right.

As far as who to blame, hey if the kid kills themself due to bullying, I blame the kid, if you are so weak that you kill yourself due to bullying, you kind of fail at life, granted if you werent so weak the bullies wouldn't have spotted it and you probably wouldn't have been bullied so much, but grow a pair and defend yourself

FWIW from having a chick friend in high school I know that girls have to deal with alot more bullying and rumor spreading and such compared to guys, guys have alot more of that cold war mentality in bullying because of the ability to throw down if needed.

[Angel of Iniquity]

I'm for bullying, I know its not a popular position, but it's a reality of the world we live in and it does toughen a person up. But as Shiro said, its not like bullying suddenly stops at any point, better to start with Suzie Q saying i have cooties and building a tolerance, to when it actually gets more significant.

Bullying targets weakness, you can be the weird kid and not be bullied, I played chess with the nerds in the library, I banged a cheerleader, Played hockey, played world of warcraft, hung out with friends doing everything, did a bit of bullying myself actually. Its a matter of confidence, and not taking someones shit if someone challenges you. Being a pacifist doesnt mean you have to take someone's shit, it doesn't mean you have to throw down even, you can chose to be the 'weird kid' and not be bullied, I know I was that person.

I was actually homeschooled up until high school, even was a bit socially awkward at first, being good at hockey helped me out alot, but I did get bullied by one kid a little bit freshman year, granted I thought the kid had a slight case of down syndrome, or something just wasnt quite right.

As far as who to blame, hey if the kid kills themself due to bullying, I blame the kid, if you are so weak that you kill yourself due to bullying, you kind of fail at life, granted if you werent so weak the bullies wouldn't have spotted it and you probably wouldn't have been bullied so much, but grow a pair and defend yourself

FWIW from having a chick friend in high school I know that girls have to deal with alot more bullying and rumor spreading and such compared to guys, guys have alot more of that cold war mentality in bullying because of the ability to throw down if needed.

>.>
You do know that, the kids who get bullied aren't stronger when they get around it. I almost set into motion a plan that would have surely killed everybody in my classroom. Now I have little or no care for most humans, and can laugh if 90% die right now. I can laugh, but I wouldn't.

[Unknown Entity]

The whole conception that bullying is good for you because it targets weaknesses is completely misguided. You must be completely ignorant of how other people feel if that's what you think. Not everyone emotionally capable of pinpointing their weaknesses and getting over it. Not all bullying works that why either. I couldn't change how I looked at school, and could only change how I acted. I went from just being who I was, to a chav, to a wannabe rapper, gangster, class joker, etc... and no matter who I was, it was always about the shape of my head, my laugh, how skinny I was, how fat I was - just about everything that at that age was difficult to change.

As for being a bully yourself? That's disgusting. An ego boost over someone's misfortune or discrepancies is even more pathetic than the victim feeling like shit about themselves. That's one of the things I've always been disgusted about in humankind; personal gain and selfishness and nothing else. I don't understand how people can openly admit that they were once a bully and not be ashamed of it.

Reporting bullying in my case just made matters worse. All of my teachers knew about it and never acted, and one even joined in. I could never even pick up the courage enough to tell my mum because I knew I'd just get teased even more about it the next day at school.

I was bullied by my class for six/seven long years, and I found moving into secondary school really difficult because I thought it'd get worse at a school with three times as many students. I had really low self esteem by the time I got there, and found it hard talking to anyone out of fear of being judged, at being laughed at, or bullied again. I made friends, but I didn't make any real friends until I was in Year 10. I was fifteen years old when I finally found someone who genuinely laughed and fooled around with me. That's ****ing sad; I feel like I missed out on a huge chunk of my childhood because I lived in fear of being bullied. In the five years we've known each other, we've not argued once.

It wasn't just me either. It was my brother who got bullied too. When I left school, he lost that lifeline of having someone around to back him up when he was pushed into a corner. One of the bullies in his class brought a lighter in one day, and took it to my brother's arm. He came home with a huge stinging mark that day, and it was then mum went down to the school and mopped the floor with everyone, and found out how we'd both been treated for the last seven years.

[Selcopa]

Yet some of the biggest points of my post were not addressed, we all accept that bullying will/does occur at higher ages right? And that it certainly will be more significantly hurting compared to calling someone a doo doo head in the 1st grade, as such it will be more effective. Without the conditioning from the past, suddenly that grown up bullying is alot more damaging than it used to be.

We are talking in the realm where we accept that bullying has and will always exist? If we had a switch to turn off bullying id be fine with flipping it off, but in reality, its gonna exist, and we ask "do we want our kid to get bullied?" Sure I do.

@Odin if you have such little value for human life, certainly you would have been more prone to recklessly endanger your own by standing up to these bullies until they realized it suddenly wasnt worth it to bully you as much, although it does make me think of the South Park where kyle is at the bottom of the cute boys list and has to hang out with the other ugly kids.

@Unknown, why didnt your brother fight back? what was your brother afraid of? Getting burned? If its an unexpected attack, you retaliate in defense. If its being held down its another story and there are certain ways to handle it.

There is a significant difference between a kid who gets bullied because somebody enjoys exercising their physical dominance over somebody, and if you are unable repel them despite fighting back then that is the situation where it gets too far. There is a reason they say martial arts is a confidence builder,but if its something where despite inflicting damage back, the bully still continues, higher authority should come in.

However this is much different than the common case of bullying where you are being picked on for being weird, my example was to show that it isn't the fact that you are weird as the reason for being picked on(anyone from my past, or present, could tell you im pretty weird) but rather your confidence about being weird. You are right that many kids are unable to target this on themselves and solve the problem. This is where good parenting comes in to play. But to suggest all of this problem is on the bullies themselves is definitely missing part of the picture.

As far as me bullying, it definitely occured, I dont know if i could necessarily pick out a point where I was actually really bullied someone alot(I beat up a kid a little bit on my tennis team because he knocked my ball out of the fenced in area and refused to go get it, not entirely my fault though) and it was certainly less than how much some of you guys received, but I definitely would spot uncertainty and exploit it. And I dont really feel bad about that.

SPOILER!!:

My posts on this are certainly more exaggerated than how I really feel about the situation, however I felt it was useful to exaggerate and be the counter arguement to avoid this thread from being 20 replies of 'hurr durr bullying is bad'. I definitely don't hate bullying as much as most of you do, as i'm from a more aggressive background(hockey and all) and would expect people to actually stand up for themselves. But as it's more thought provoking to actually have to flesh out your opinions to go against a devil's advocate, id definitely stay this way

[Angel of Iniquity]

Yet some of the biggest points of my post were not addressed, we all accept that bullying will/does occur at higher ages right? And that it certainly will be more significantly hurting compared to calling someone a doo doo head in the 1st grade, as such it will be more effective. Without the conditioning from the past, suddenly that grown up bullying is alot more damaging than it used to be.

We are talking in the realm where we accept that bullying has and will always exist? If we had a switch to turn off bullying id be fine with flipping it off, but in reality, its gonna exist, and we ask "do we want our kid to get bullied?" Sure I do.

@Odin if you have such little value for human life, certainly you would have been more prone to recklessly endanger your own by standing up to these bullies until they realized it suddenly wasnt worth it to bully you as much, although it does make me think of the South Park where kyle is at the bottom of the cute boys list and has to hang out with the other ugly kids.

@Unknown, why didnt your brother fight back? what was your brother afraid of? Getting burned? If its an unexpected attack, you retaliate in defense. If its being held down its another story and there are certain ways to handle it.

There is a significant difference between a kid who gets bullied because somebody enjoys exercising their physical dominance over somebody, and if you are unable repel them despite fighting back then that is the situation where it gets too far. There is a reason they say martial arts is a confidence builder,but if its something where despite inflicting damage back, the bully still continues, higher authority should come in.

However this is much different than the common case of bullying where you are being picked on for being weird, my example was to show that it isn't the fact that you are weird as the reason for being picked on(anyone from my past, or present, could tell you im pretty weird) but rather your confidence about being weird. You are right that many kids are unable to target this on themselves and solve the problem. This is where good parenting comes in to play. But to suggest all of this problem is on the bullies themselves is definitely missing part of the picture.

As far as me bullying, it definitely occured, I dont know if i could necessarily pick out a point where I was actually really bullied someone alot(I beat up a kid a little bit on my tennis team because he knocked my ball out of the fenced in area and refused to go get it, not entirely my fault though) and it was certainly less than how much some of you guys received, but I definitely would spot uncertainty and exploit it. And I dont really feel bad about that.

SPOILER!!:

My posts on this are certainly more exaggerated than how I really feel about the situation, however I felt it was useful to exaggerate and be the counter arguement to avoid this thread from being 20 replies of 'hurr durr bullying is bad'. I definitely don't hate bullying as much as most of you do, as i'm from a more aggressive background(hockey and all) and would expect people to actually stand up for themselves. But as it's more thought provoking to actually have to flesh out your opinions to go against a devil's advocate, id definitely stay this way

Has it ever came to you that I have no discern over human life because of those events? Seriously guy, grow up.
Has it ever occurred to you that we weren't raised to fight back? As in raised properly? As I have stated, being picked on since 6th grade, twice in seventh grade, and in 8th grade doesn't do ANYBODY good for their mental state.
Because of them, I could slit a babies neck wide open and not really give 2 shits. Do I have the heart and will too? Yes, again, would I? No, no reason.
Seriously, I can't stand that, your whole outlook on bullying is sickening.

[Heartless Angel]

Has it ever came to you that I have no discern over human life because of those events? Seriously guy, grow up.

No, because there's more than just being bullied going on there. That's sociopathic, and sounds like you already had the mental state similar to that of your average serial killer. That is definitely not the norm, and is not applicapbe to attempting to refute arguments about the norm.

Has it ever occurred to you that we weren't raised to fight back? As in raised properly?

And just taking shit, never fighting back, and just letting shit happen is exactly why bullies continue to target certain individuals. When you beat the shit out of the kid trying to take your lunch money, it's a fair bet he's not going to try it a second time. When you throw your lunch money at him and beg for mercy, you're not exactly encouraging him to leave you alone, as you've shown him what he's doing works. Classical conditioning mate, pretty simple psychology there. Pacifism is all well and good, but sometimes out in the real world, it just doesn't work. World ain't always nice, sometimes you've gotta step up and be mean with it, or it's going to eat you alive.

As I have stated, being picked on since 6th grade, twice in seventh grade, and in 8th grade doesn't do ANYBODY good for their mental state.

You've stated it, yes, but your only supporting evidence is your own extordinarily abnormal mental state and a suggestion that it was caused by your own experiences with bullies. Unfortunately, causality usually isn't an easy thing to prove with psychology. By and large, that doesn't happen to kids who are bullied. I'm a fine example of the Sel's side of the argument. I learned from bullies at a young age, that people will be jackasses. There are jackasses everywhere. You go into life thinking everybody's going to be nice to you, you're just setting yourself up for dissappointment. Being bullied at a young age did wonders for my mental state. Nothing jumpstarts growing up like a little pain. That isn't to say we should all encourage our kids to go pummel the snot out of each other, but trying to protect them all from the world isn't doing them any favors, because some day, they're going to have to go out and live in that world without their mommies and daddies holding their hands. And going out there alone for the first time thinking everybody is your friend, and nothing bad is ever going to happen to you is a recipe for disaster.

Because of them, I could slit a babies neck wide open and not really give 2 shits. Do I have the heart and will too? Yes, again, would I? No, no reason.
Seriously, I can't stand that, your whole outlook on bullying is sickening.

Sounds like an act to me, but I can't say I now that, so I won't even attempt to argue it, but if you CAN honestly say that, you aren't in a position to call ANYBODY'S views on ANYTHING sickening. The strong wishing to dominate the weak is human nature. Disregard for human life is abnormal and generally a sign of underlying psychological conditions that go far deeper than any school bully's.

[Leon]

I think it's time for me to post again.

I agree with Heartless and Sel to a certain extent. I do believe in the whole "stand up for yourself" sort of thing, and being some sort of a wuss may not affect you much in, let's say, kindergarten. But once kids start growing they start picking on each other apparently with no reason at all, and they always start with the nerd or the weird kid.

But for those being bullied, they're usually people who are already thinking about the future. Getting caught in a lot of fights in school (depending on the amount of times they get picked on) probably wouldn't help them out if they wanted a career as a lawyer, right? Even if it was their choice, a lot don't act on it probably for that reason. I'm not saying it's THE reason why people don't fight back, but I'm certain that's the reason for some.

In my case, in my earlier years I would actually CHASE DOWN the people who picked on me. But since I could never catch them, the whole ordeal actually turned out more embarrassing that I thought, and they would poke fun of me for that. My mom even went down to the school one time, but as you can already guess it only made things worse.

I don't really want to get a lot of heat for this (but since it's the ID forum, I'm just asking for it), but I think a lot of people in the world are just weak. Inside, outside, or both. People do have the option of fighting back, but as you can tell from the amount of suicides it's either not working or they just don't want to fight back. Probably the latter, but in that case they don't want to risk suspension or they just don't want to be on the receiving end of a punch.

Sorry if this post seemed hurried, but I have somewhere to be atm. >.>

[Furore]

I think about those I've had to deal with and I think the problem is thus:
Most people are pussies.
This is bad in two ways:
1. Not many people will stick up for the bullied because they fear to or think some stronger person will so there's no need to.
2. Bullies are pussies and often hunt in groups which enhances their ability to cause both physical and psychological abuse.

It was said by someone earlier that he felt that if a kid killed himself due to bullying it was his fault. I would only agree to a limited degree. It WAS his fault for going through with it, BUT he only went through with it because of the bullying. If reading books concerning psychobabble has taught me anything it's that your average homo sapien feels a need for self preservation. Suicidal thoughts are an indication something unhealthy is going on.

If people stood together against bullying, those bullies, pussies as I mentioned earlier, would flee like any outnumbered animal. I've gotten results against several of them on my own. If other bystanders did the same and they were outnumbered I imagine the threat would be fully nullified.

Yeah, bullying may always be a problem, but it's because people can't consolidate against it much of the time. That shit only seems to happen in movies unfortunately.

[Unknown Entity]

@Unknown, why didnt your brother fight back? what was your brother afraid of? Getting burned? If its an unexpected attack, you retaliate in defense. If its being held down its another story and there are certain ways to handle it.

He couldn't fight back. The bully with the lighter had his friends with him, and they'd pinned my brother down, while my brother's friends ran off. If I was still at that school, they'd have come to find me reading a book in a corner somewhere, and I'd have gone and dealt with them. I don't know what the **** they did do, but as far as I know they didn't go for help. My brother had no way to defend himself.

I'm also sure he was terrified. Even now, I'll play with a lighter and melted candle wax without a second thought, and my brother remains weary of it.

However this is much different than the common case of bullying where you are being picked on for being weird, my example was to show that it isn't the fact that you are weird as the reason for being picked on (anyone from my past, or present, could tell you im pretty weird) but rather your confidence about being weird. You are right that many kids are unable to target this on themselves and solve the problem. This is where good parenting comes in to play. But to suggest all of this problem is on the bullies themselves is definitely missing part of the picture.

No. Bullies pick on people because they're different. You could be the confident weird person, but that's not going to stop some asshole acting any differently to you. Sure, maybe a more confident person would get a few less punches (physical or emotional - it doesn't really matter), but that doesn't stop a bully from tormenting them about it. Nor does it help someone with less confidence overcome the bullying.

Good parenting let a kid walk into school with a lighter with the intent to use it for something harmful. The hell does a ten year old need a lighter for?

So going by your logic, it was my fault I was bullied? I'm missing half the picture? Yeeeah. Okay buddy.

As far as me bullying, it definitely occured, I dont know if i could necessarily pick out a point where I was actually really bullied someone alot(I beat up a kid a little bit on my tennis team because he knocked my ball out of the fenced in area and refused to go get it, not entirely my fault though) and it was certainly less than how much some of you guys received, but I definitely would spot uncertainty and exploit it. And I dont really feel bad about that.

...You beat up a kid for something as pathetic as that? I don't know the full story, but still; going to arms over a ****ing ball? Please tell me you were only a ten year old who didn't know any better?

[Angel of Iniquity]

Oi hell.
Well, sticking up for yourself where I am from would have caused a jumping. Not something applicable to stand up for. The teachers already knew. And as I stated, I did not start having these feelings until the midst of my second 7th year or the 8th grade.
And of course, being picked on during class and my fuking retarted ass teacher does nothing increases my rage.
If I were to see any one of those kids today, I would honestly get "pulses" of rage through my body and I try to start trouble with them, they don't do anything.
I would love to hurt them, not beat their asses, hurt them.
Actually, because of all of that, I welcome pain and have an unruly attachment to death blahblahblah. Socio? Maybe, psych never said anything about it.

Oh and, as I said, you can't stand up for yourself when you will get jumped by a gang of 3-10 people. Oh how I wish to gaze apon their deadened gaze as I stand above their hindered soul, smiling, as tears of wrath and utter nihility run across my face, dripping unto their lifeless gait, and I know, that last vision they saw, was the vision of their death.
Oh it sounds so ****ING wonderful. ****ING would love to KILL them without thought!!!

[Dan558]

The whole conception that bullying is good for you because it targets weaknesses is completely misguided. You must be completely ignorant of how other people feel if that's what you think. Not everyone emotionally capable of pinpointing their weaknesses and getting over it. Not all bullying works that why either. I couldn't change how I looked at school, and could only change how I acted. I went from just being who I was, to a chav, to a wannabe rapper, gangster, class joker, etc... and no matter who I was, it was always about the shape of my head, my laugh, how skinny I was, how fat I was - just about everything that at that age was difficult to change.

As for being a bully yourself? That's disgusting. An ego boost over someone's misfortune or discrepancies is even more pathetic than the victim feeling like shit about themselves. That's one of the things I've always been disgusted about in humankind; personal gain and selfishness and nothing else. I don't understand how people can openly admit that they were once a bully and not be ashamed of it.

Reporting bullying in my case just made matters worse. All of my teachers knew about it and never acted, and one even joined in. I could never even pick up the courage enough to tell my mum because I knew I'd just get teased even more about it the next day at school.

I was bullied by my class for six/seven long years, and I found moving into secondary school really difficult because I thought it'd get worse at a school with three times as many students. I had really low self esteem by the time I got there, and found it hard talking to anyone out of fear of being judged, at being laughed at, or bullied again. I made friends, but I didn't make any real friends until I was in Year 10. I was fifteen years old when I finally found someone who genuinely laughed and fooled around with me. That's ****ing sad; I feel like I missed out on a huge chunk of my childhood because I lived in fear of being bullied. In the five years we've known each other, we've not argued once.

It wasn't just me either. It was my brother who got bullied too. When I left school, he lost that lifeline of having someone around to back him up when he was pushed into a corner. One of the bullies in his class brought a lighter in one day, and took it to my brother's arm. He came home with a huge stinging mark that day, and it was then mum went down to the school and mopped the floor with everyone, and found out how we'd both been treated for the last seven years.

This, all this. Bullying is disgusting, many times its actually more of the bully's weaknesses that makes them bully. They get beat at home or something so they have to take it out on anyone they can. Even still that's only for a few most are just terrible people.

I feel like I missed out on a huge chunk of my childhood because I lived in fear of being bullied. In the five years we've known each other, we've not argued once.

This part is especially true. There is no right for them to take people like me, Unknown Entity or anyone elses life away but they do. Then sometimes I just sit back and wonder why people insist on calling these "the best years of our lives", makes me not want to see the future.

I even sympathize with Ooodinoo, bullying has made me have a very bleak outlook on people in general. My default setting for when I meet people is hating them because of how disgusting bullying is. Even still, when I hate them I don't bully them. We are not animals, not everything should be dog eat dog. Think its alright to socially rape someone? Then it shouldn't be wrong for me to retaliate with severe physical violence. It will only make you stronger right?. Jeez (Edit: I only read his 2nd post at this time...)

Bullying is for the stupid. I won't ignorantly say because of jealousy but bullies are almost never intelligent, the only intellectually strong part they have is to know how to stoop so low and pick on a persons weak spots.

BTW I stopped taking Sel's posts seriously when he bragged about sleeping with a cheerleader. That just came off as a pathetic self-boost just waiting to pop up anywhere. Besides he says hes been picked on but didn't let it get to him yet (i think) says he was home schooled till high school so he missed out on 8-9 years of some of the harshest bullying when people are at their worst. In high school many people mellow out and bullying just basically turns more into exclusive clicks that would rather ignore you then waste time picking on you. It's not completely gone but by that time the worst is over and the places have been set, people have their attitudes and clicks set in their subconscious. New kids are actually generally accepted anywhere so clicks can swell their ranks regardless of what kind of person they are. The harshest bullies actually become the retarded kids that do heavy drugs, are in the remedial class and even drop out so there's some slight justice but it dosn't change the past.

As for the OP, It's basically a mix of everyone's fault. Societies because parents have little to no control over their kids. Parents fault for not teaching good morals to their kids and god forbid encouraging being a bully (which is probably what Sel will do). Kids fault for not realizing they are picking on human beings. Teachers fault for completely ignoring anything they see because they can't be bothered to pick up the parents moral shortcomings. Bullying happens most and is the most impressionable at young ages, just like learning is easier when your younger "learning your place" is also heavily set during that time.

[Angel of Iniquity]

Oh crap, I guess I should say I was a little hyper, but I still don't feel feelings as strong as other people. I think I felt evil, or just wanted to talk different. Felt cool but eh, didn't mean to sound so, ehh, whatever I sounded like.
Still. People who bully are B!tches.

[Dan558]

Heres a perfect example of how Societies general views on bulying is flawed.

Once my younger brother was playing pokemon cards with his friends. An idiot (Bully) older then him walked up stole his card, teased him, bent the card, then took it. My brother was upset, told a teacher, the teacher ignored him (because hobbies arn't important or something), so he came to me. He told me what happened and pointed the bully out (my age) so I walked/stomped up to him and say something like "Hey give back my brothers card, jerk!". Apparently I should of brought an army because all of a sudden 5 guys are on me holding me down while the asshole kicks me for awhile. I somehow break free, punch him (to what effect I'm not sure) and push him so he stumbles into a planter. This is when the teacher gets there and takes us to the principals office. I'm not sure exactly what he got but I got suspended for a day for "starting the fight". Whats wrong about that is that HE started the fight the moment he picked on and stole from my brother for no reason.

Now I hate the school system and I'm no better for it. Bullying dosn't make people stronger/better it's just destructive to everyone, even the people trying to do good.

[Heartless Angel]

The school system I will agree is retarded. Their solution to bullying is punishing the victim every bit as much as the bully when you actually stand up for yourself, which is beyond ****ing stupid. And they pull the stupid, "lul u dint hav 2 fite bak u can tell a techur". Right, next time I'll politely wait until he's done kicking my teeth in, then come tell you so you can slap him on the wrist and send him back outside to kick my remaining teeth in for telling on him. Thanks for all the help Teach. I had my fair share of ISS sentences in elementary for taking matters into my own hands, because that's what worked. You don't nescessarily have to be the biggest baddest kid in school to fight back. In 3rd grade, there were two bullies who hated me in particular, ianly made fun of me for my weight. One day after an exchange of words which I was winning, one threw a punch. It turned into a 2 on 1 fight. I of course lost, but I went down fighting. I sustained more damage than either of them, but it wasn't worth it to them to start shit with me again, because they knew at very least I was going to get a few good hits in. Granted, a fistfight isn't always an option, but a fistfight isn't always the only means of fighting back. Particularly in high school, you've got the nice lawuit option. I know a few kids who got their asses kicked, and ended up filing lawsuits against their attackers. You report these little shits often enough, eventually they get reassigned and you no longer have to deal with them. Involve your parents, involve their parents, whatever it takes. You think you look like a ***** for getting help? You look like alot more of a ***** for bending over and taking it. Good things come to those who help themselves.

Also, nobody is standing up for the bullies themselves, bullies are jackasses, nobody disputes this. Unfortunately, there are always going to be jackasses. They're everywhere. The sooner you learn to deal with the jackasses of the world, the happier you'll be.

[Selcopa]

Short post ive got class in 15 minutes, ill make a longer one later,

Odin your disregard for life is much more of a psychological disorder compared to being bullied, maybe being bullied enhanced it, but thats like saying video games caused someone to kill a person, no, they had huge problems, video games might have given them a method or direction, but they had problems. Regardless either you need professional therapy, or you are exaggerating, its quite a big difference to say you'd have problem killing, and actually doing it.

"We weren't taught to stick up for yourself?" please its simple fight or flight, and if flight wasnt being very successful, shoulda tried fighting imo.

You can infact fight back vs 3-5 guys or whatever, you'll get your ass kicked, but you can fight back.

[Angel of Iniquity]

Short post ive got class in 15 minutes, ill make a longer one later,

Odin your disregard for life is much more of a psychological disorder compared to being bullied, maybe being bullied enhanced it, but thats like saying video games caused someone to kill a person, no, they had huge problems, video games might have given them a method or direction, but they had problems. Regardless either you need professional therapy, or you are exaggerating, its quite a big difference to say you'd have problem killing, and actually doing it.

"We weren't taught to stick up for yourself?" please its simple fight or flight, and if flight wasnt being very successful, shoulda tried fighting imo.

You can infact fight back vs 3-5 guys or whatever, you'll get your ass kicked, but you can fight back.

No, I am schizotypal because of those events had a dramatic effect on my life. Think about it like this. For about 4-6 years, I didn't want to go to school because of them, I didn't do good at school because that would have gave me more problems from them, so the teachers got on my case, knowing they picked on me. They didn't care about me, so I in turn didn't care about anybody because I found little to no help. That is what my psych said, I don't really believe it but I'll go with it. And now apparently, I like power because I felt inferior in those days.
You are loosing massive credibility, as saying those events didn't cause my personality disorder.
Tried fighting? Are you serious guy? If you didn't know how to fight, and probably would have lost against one, would you fight against more than 3? No, that is fallacy seriously. What would have getting my ass whipped shown? That I can't fight... >.>
I did punch somebody in the mouth, but did more damage to my knuckle...>.>
Did it change anything? Nope. Not until my personality disorder got in full drive did drastic changes occur.

[Heartless Angel]

No, I am schizotypal because of those events had a dramatic effect on my life. Think about it like this. For about 4-6 years, I didn't want to go to school because of them, I didn't do good at school because that would have gave me more problems from them, so the teachers got on my case, knowing they picked on me. They didn't care about me, so I in turn didn't care about anybody because I found little to no help. That is what my psych said, I don't really believe it but I'll go with it. And now apparently, I like power because I felt inferior in those days.
You are loosing massive credibility, as saying those events didn't cause my personality disorder.
Tried fighting? Are you serious guy? If you didn't know how to fight, and probably would have lost against one, would you fight against more than 3? No, that is fallacy seriously. What would have getting my ass whipped shown? That I can't fight... >.>
I did punch somebody in the mouth, but did more damage to my knuckle...>.>
Did it change anything? Nope. Not until my personality disorder got in full drive did drastic changes occur.

For someone who claims to be a psychologist, you don't know much about abnormal psychology. No external source causes a personality disorder. That's like saying staring at flashing lights gave you epilepsy. That's not how it works. You already had epilepsy, the flashing lights just set it off. Being bullied does not cause your brain to mutate. You either have a psychological disorder or you don't. Some things can trigger them, but you always had them.

You didn't want to go to school because you let them bother you. That is your fault. people get bullied all the time, everywhere. It happens. You can either brush it off and deal with it, or take it to heart and let it damage you. You CHOSE to do badly in school for them, you CHOSE to let them win. That's why they kept at it.

I am a confirmed sociopath with psychological disorders of my own. I still didn't bend over and take their shit, nor did I let them get to me.

Fighting back again doesn't always have to mean throwing a punch. It means doing whatever it takes to deal with the problem rather than bending over and letting the bullies make you their bitch. The teacher doesn't help? You talk to the principal. School in general doesn't help? You involve your parents. You do whatever needs to be done.

[Angel of Iniquity]

God fuking damnit.
Guys, seriously, at least look up on what you are going to say before you say it.

Bullying causes stress. Okay?
Bullying and worrying= Stress.

Stress can cause a plethora of ailments.

psychological symptoms - panic attacks, reactive depression (which some people describe as Adjustment Disorder with depressed mood), thoughts of suicide, stress breakdown (this is a psychiatric injury, not a mental illness), forgetfulness, impoverished or intermittently functioning memory, poor concentration, flashbacks and replays, excessive guilt, disbelief and confusion and bewilderment ("why me?" - click here for the answer), an unusual degree of fear, sense of isolation, insecurity, desperation, etc; one experiences acute anxiety at the prospect of meeting the bully or visiting the location where the bullying took place, or at the thought of touching the paperwork associated with the case; one is unable to attend disciplinary meetings and may vomit before, during or after the meeting, sometimes at the thought of the meeting or on receiving a threatening letter insisting one attends (these are PTSD diagnostic criteria B4 and B5)

behavioural symptoms - tearfulness, irritability, angry outbursts, obsessiveness (the experience takes over your life), hypervigilance (feels like but is not paranoia), hypersensitivity (almost every remark or action is perceived as critical even when it is not), sullenness (a sign the inner psyche has been damaged), mood swings, withdrawal, indecision, loss of humour, hyperawareness (acute awareness of time, seasons, distance travelled), excessive biting, teeth grinding, picking, scratching or tics, increased reliance on drugs (tannin, caffeine, nicotine, alcohol, sleeping tablets, tranquillisers, antidepressants, other substances), comfort spending (and consequent financial problems), phobias (especially agoraphobia), etc

Got this from a psych site.

I put emphases on the Behavioral part...

Are yout elling me that the psychological disorder, Depression is not caused by anything? But is always there and only has a trigger?
Omfg, please don't say it is so, in that case, 1/3 of the world has a serious mental disorder. I do not have Depression, just a case point.

Now do you understand?

Again, it wasn't normal circumstances. Around 7th grade, Gangs where popularized. What would have happened if I have said anything? It would have gotten worst. How about my parents? It would have gotten worst.
I moved schools in 8th grade. It continued. I moved one last time in 8th grade, it continued.

So do you see now? It is not the kids fault. Especially if his or her parents didn't raise you to experience this type of stress.

The website is here. Effects of bullying and stress: symptoms, injury to physical health and mental health, anxiety, fatigue, IBS, trauma, psychiatric injury, breakdown, PTSD

Again, with theses ghetto thugs, me trying to stop anything would have amplified it.
But if I had what I knew today, they wouldn't exist, actually, allot of things here are due for a change...

[Valkyrie]

I have been in a situation before that you could call bullying, but I didn't succumb to the person doing the bullying. It was a group of us. The story isn't anything worth noting, but I do have some things I'd like to say.

You asked who would be at fault for bullying and here is my opinion-
Bullying starts in school at whatever age. The people around you are part of how things go. If someone is being a bully to someone who is accepting it while others ignore or overlook the situation, it should be obvious where the problem lies. The bullies are not the only people around.

It is the bullied person's problem, but they were chosen to be alone by the people around him/her. This is a continuing problem in our society. Not everyone is like this, but a lot of people do overlook things that should be dealt with. If you are ignoring bullying, you are just like the bully. The bullying is getting done.

When I was in highschool, it was great. I graduated last year. There was bullying, but as my grade came up, bullying was not something common. We looked down on bullying because we TOGETHER looked at it as wrong. We didn't ignore it, but we also weren't real serious-like people.

People, no matter the age, tend to get wrapped up in social views, causing situations like bullying and bias. I'd say the main fault with bullying is the lack of cooperation between people who are around eachother.

It's typical and repetitve now due to people who can make a change but don't realize it together.

[Angel of Iniquity]

I have been in a situation before that you could call bullying, but I didn't succumb to the person doing the bullying. It was a group of us. The story isn't anything worth noting, but I do have some things I'd like to say.

You asked who would be at fault for bullying and here is my opinion-
Bullying starts in school at whatever age. The people around you are part of how things go. If someone is being a bully to someone who is accepting it while others ignore or overlook the situation, it should be obvious where the problem lies. The bullies are not the only people around.

It is the bullied person's problem, but they were chosen to be alone by the people around him/her. This is a continuing problem in our society. Not everyone is like this, but a lot of people do overlook things that should be dealt with. If you are ignoring bullying, you are just like the bully. The bullying is getting done.

When I was in highschool, it was great. I graduated last year. There was bullying, but as my grade came up, bullying was not something common. We looked down on bullying because we TOGETHER looked at it as wrong. We didn't ignore it, but we also weren't real serious-like people.

People, no matter the age, tend to get wrapped up in social views, causing situations like bullying and bias. I'd say the main fault with bullying is the lack of cooperation between people who are around eachother.

It's typical and repetitve now due to people who can make a change but don't realize it together.

Come on, fukin people here.

Reporting abuse

Why don't targets of abuse report their abuse? There are many reasons:

abuse is a betrayal; the target trusted and depended on the integrity of another (eg child on adult, pupil on teacher, subordinate on manager) and that person betrayed them.
The target fears and anticipates, often with justification, that when they report the abuse, they will be betrayed again.
those in authority did nothing to prevent the abuse while it was happening, nor did they do anything subsequently. Very often it was the person in the position of authority who was the abuser. Trust in authority is low, with justification.
the target fears, with justification, that no-one will believe them
disbelief and denial are everywhere; people not trained in abuse and with no experience of dealing with abuse find it easier to disbelieve and deny the abuse
if the target reports the abuse, and initiates legal action, prospects for future employment may be impaired
abusers often operate in networks, sharing information, and even, in paedophilia, sharing victims; sometimes the networks are loose, sometimes they operate covertly within organisations, especially those of a secretive nature
the abuser relies on compulsive lying, Jekyll & Hyde nature, and charm (click here for details) and uses denial, counter-attack, projection and feigning victimhood to evade accountability (click here for details). Charm has a motive - deception.
the target felt fear at the time of abuse and continues to feel fear - fear of violence, fear of loss of job, fear of humiliation, fear of what others will think, etc
the target feels ashamed of what happened, having been encouraged by the abuser to believe that they were responsible rather than that the abuser was responsible
because abuse can be of an intimate nature (eg as in sexual abuse), the target feels embarrassed about what happened and continues to feel embarrassed talking about it now (embarrassment is a function of society's attitudes to sexual behaviour)
the target felt and continues to feel guilty about what happened, having been encouraged by their abuser to believe they were responsible
fear, shame, embarrassment and guilt are how all abusers control their victims; they are instruments of power
the target probably has unusually high levels of naivety which are heightened by the trauma and which the abuser has exploited and continues to exploit; the target may have been encouraged to withdraw from legal action by the abuser feigning victimhood and playing on their target's forgiving chord and other people's sympathies
the target feels bewildered and often still cannot believe that it happened; the target often feels responsible in some way, as evidenced by the nagging thought "Why did I let it happen to me?"
abuse causes trauma which prevents the target articulating what is happening to them.
trauma and fear also prevent the target from being able to find the right words to identify, unmask and call to account their tormentor
abuse causes Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) and any thought, memory or reminder of the abuse immediately results in the sufferer experiencing the following PTSD DSM-IV diagnostic criteria:
B4. intense psychological distress at exposure to internal or external cues that symbolise or resemble an aspect of the traumatic event
B5. physiological reactivity on exposure to internal or external cues that symbolise or resemble an aspect of the traumatic event

as well as

C1. efforts to avoid thoughts, feelings or conversations associated with the trauma
C2. efforts to avoid activities, places or people that arouse recollections of this trauma
C3. inability to recall an important aspect of the trauma
D3. difficulty concentrating

read it, learn from it, and don't post meaningless bull.

[Valkyrie]

I didn't suggest reporting abuse, although it is a nice option.

For the record, I didn't post meaningless "bull". It's very true. I'm not sure if you misunderstood what I posted or if you missed the point, but I didn't shoot anything you said down. You should be open to how other people view something and not so set on viewing something one way.

The last line of the last post I made is something you honestly couldn't detest.

[Angel of Iniquity]

I didn't suggest reporting abuse, although it is a nice option.

For the record, I didn't post meaningless "bull". It's very true. I'm not sure if you misunderstood what I posted or if you missed the point, but I didn't shoot anything you said down. You should be open to how other people view something and not so set on viewing something one way.

The last line of the last post I made is something you honestly couldn't detest.

You forgot a word in your post.
You said. "It is the bullied persons fault,"
But upon further investigation, the other half would not have made sense unless you meant it "isn't" the bullied persons fault, but the people around them.

Sorry for attacking you but, I only reply to what other people post.

Oh and the reporting abuse was the article headliner from the site I sited lol

[Heartless Angel]

God fuking damnit.
Guys, seriously, at least look up on what you are going to say before you say it.

Bullying causes stress. Okay?
Bullying and worrying= Stress.

Stress can cause a plethora of ailments.

That's not even close to your original statement. Your original statement was wrong, it's not everyone else's fault for not being aware of the next claim you were going to make. That's on you bro. Stress is not a personality disorder. Sress does not turn you into a homicidal maniac, you have to have an abnormal psyche to begin with before that happens.

psychological symptoms - panic attacks, reactive depression (which some people describe as Adjustment Disorder with depressed mood), thoughts of suicide, stress breakdown (this is a psychiatric injury, not a mental illness), forgetfulness, impoverished or intermittently functioning memory, poor concentration, flashbacks and replays, excessive guilt, disbelief and confusion and bewilderment ("why me?" - click here for the answer), an unusual degree of fear, sense of isolation, insecurity, desperation, etc; one experiences acute anxiety at the prospect of meeting the bully or visiting the location where the bullying took place, or at the thought of touching the paperwork associated with the case; one is unable to attend disciplinary meetings and may vomit before, during or after the meeting, sometimes at the thought of the meeting or on receiving a threatening letter insisting one attends (these are PTSD diagnostic criteria B4 and B5)

behavioural symptoms - tearfulness, irritability, angry outbursts, obsessiveness (the experience takes over your life), hypervigilance (feels like but is not paranoia), hypersensitivity (almost every remark or action is perceived as critical even when it is not), sullenness (a sign the inner psyche has been damaged), mood swings, withdrawal, indecision, loss of humour, hyperawareness (acute awareness of time, seasons, distance travelled), excessive biting, teeth grinding, picking, scratching or tics, increased reliance on drugs (tannin, caffeine, nicotine, alcohol, sleeping tablets, tranquillisers, antidepressants, other substances), comfort spending (and consequent financial problems), phobias (especially agoraphobia), etc

Got this from a psych site.

I put emphases on the Behavioral part...

Are yout elling me that the psychological disorder, Depression is not caused by anything? But is always there and only has a trigger?
Omfg, please don't say it is so, in that case, 1/3 of the world has a serious mental disorder. I do not have Depression, just a case point.

Those are not personality disorders. Depression has a phsyical cause which is present in some individuals and not others. Again, this is why not everybody who is exposed to the same stimuli has the same reactions. If you don't know that, you have absolutely no business calling yourself a psychologist.

Again, it wasn't normal circumstances. Around 7th grade, Gangs where popularized. What would have happened if I have said anything? It would have gotten worst. How about my parents? It would have gotten worst.
I moved schools in 8th grade. It continued. I moved one last time in 8th grade, it continued.

Gang violence and bullying are not the same thing. You cannot use one to discuss the other. If you're talking about gang violence, you don't argue about bullying, you argue about gang violence. If you're dealing with a gang, you go to the police.

So do you see now? It is not the kids fault. Especially if his or her parents didn't raise you to experience this type of stress.

Nobody 'raised me' to cope with stress. I determiend that the useless little shits doing this would never ammount to anything and weren't worth paying attention to. You really can learn some things all by yourself.

read it, learn from it, and don't post meaningless bull.

Reality. Observe it, learn from it, don't post nonsense you pulled out of psychology websites based on studies of only small groups of people. The things you're posting do not apply to all, and in fact generlaly apply to very few.

[Angel of Iniquity]

Really now. What is bullying?
Those people bullied me IN SCHOOl, but they were also in a gang, so me doing anything would have been pointless.

Did you check the site? Numerous sites have the exact or more or less the same details as that site.

It also states about psychological disorders and bullying. Check the site, there is allot on it.

While those aren't personality symptoms, wouldn't you say there are allot of symptoms of a personality disorder? I thought it would just click for everyone once they read it...>.>

Again, you reacted differently, probably because it wasn't as impacting on you or the extent of your bullying wasn't as prolonged or unexpected as those who has direct psychologic breakdowns, which is again explained in the site.