What do you do when people mock/criticize your religion?

[Shiro]

Religion is a very sensitive issue. We are advised when dealing with people to avoid sex, politics and religion. However sometimes you'll be either sitting in a conversation, or overhear one, where someone feels they need to vent their frustrations on "those two-faced Christians" or "terrorist Muslims" or "cheap Jews" to use a few expressions I've heard. I have then seen the different reactions of the people who belong to those faiths: some take it quietly but you can see them cringing. Others leap up and begin a full-blown religious debate that turns what could have been a pleasant social into an uncomfortable stalemate, as religion is an argument no one can win, IMO.

Then you get the people who, for just the slightest joke or secular opinion, will get riled up and begin challenging you about your beliefs and theirs. And some who, when they find out what you believe in, will proceed to bash it down to your face. How do you react?

I have had the experience where a girlfriend of a friend refused to come to my house because I play "Satanic music" and I'm a "devil-worshipping witch" (I'm pagan, and don't believe in Satan). I normally let that just go over my head. Another experience was when a person, once discovering I was pagan, began a heated lecture about how I need to find God, and stop rebelling against Him, and pray to Jesus for forgiveness - in my own house. I had no idea how to react. I began by trying to defend myself, but in the end I just asked him to leave.

Please note that I'm not generalising here but the majority of people I've had problems with regarding my beliefs are Christians, though I'm in no way implying that they're all like that as I have many Christian friends who know what I am and have no problem with it. We have mutual respect for each others' religions, which is a rare thing these days.

So, have you ever encountered a situation like the ones mentioned above, and what is your view on "minding your Ps and Qs" regarding religion in a social environment?

[Leon]

Well, I'm a religious guy, but to be honest I don't even go to Mass on Sundays, so you be the judge on how religious I really am. But only because the nearest church is far away, and I can't even drive a car yet.

But enough of that, as you can tell, I'm Catholic. We get a bunch of lunatics telling us we worship idols as well as doing other "unchristian" things. They don't really take the time to study our faith, they just spew a bunch of nonsense that sadly either comes from parents or Protestants in general. They don't even know the difference between worshiping and reverence.

I do have Christian friends, and they either keep it to themselves or they have no problem with Catholicism. But I do end up getting a debate when someone questions my faith, but in every case I come very prepared. It's hard to debate with a Catholic, especially one who DOESN'T follow their religion like a sheep and actually knows why he's affiliated with the Church in the first place.

Ignorance and intolerance are serious problems in the world. They do more harm than good.

[Meigumi]

I'm a Christian, and I used to attend church (before we moved, years before). I don't take the religion seriously or offend other people's religions. In fact, I don't even care about anyone's religion.

As far as I know, there hasn't been anyone who mocked or criticized my religion, so I don't really care if anyone would call me names or anything. Around here, at least from my view, we just chill out and such, as if religion never existed. Nothing serious.

If someone does insult me because of my religion, I'll always let them fly over my head. >w>

[Unknown Entity]

I'm not religious, so I don't really get it all that much. I do dish the dirt a little bit on religion, but I don't personally attack anyone - I'll just express my opinion as an atheist. If that insults anyone, I won't apologise because I'm allowed to have my own beliefs, and I thought that that was accepted in many beliefs. Free will and all that.

I don't think it's very nice when a believer tells me I will go to hell if I don't believe. The way I look at is how can you know that a God or greater being exists in the first place? You could say "Look around you at the world He built," but to me, it's just the world and there's no evidence to link Earth to a God. The Earth and the Universe contains evidence of millions of years of evolution, something which cannot exist by God's laws of building the perfect Earth in seven days. Also, if someone can believe in God, another can decide not to - there's no rules stating that you have to.

Religion is just as mockable as not having a religion. So when people do mock me, I tend to mock back.

[Pete]

I honestly don't really ever run into anyone mocking me because of my religion. If they did, I really wouldn't care too much, and I'd probably bust their balls based on whatever religion they decided to subscribe to. It's funny though because I've gone to Catholic school, we've been taught the aspects of several of the major religions, and so in the rare instance that I do have to throw a few verbal jabs, I can.

I don't really take religion seriously enough to care or to judge someone based on it... unless someone else decides to judge me based on mine.

But really, mocking someone based on their chosen religion is pretty lame... unless it's one of those psycho religions like militant Islam or those Fred Phelps people. They can all die in a big ole bus fire.

[HUNK]

I second that Pete. I don't really believe in "Power Based" religion. (Like militant Islam)

Anyway, I normally just take it in stride, I live in a county(Possilby even state) where not many different religions are found, so I can't be offended because people may not have herd of my religion and think it's strange. That is there own opinion and like a$$holes, everyone has them and they all stink. I don't talk about my own religion too much though, and when I do, the only problems I come across is people who think it's wired and think I'm wierd for practicing, but Y'know, that's their opinion.

[winterborn86]

I don't believe in any religion at all, but I don't bitch at other people for being religious or pick at what the religion is.
As said in other posts, religion is a sensitive/personal issue, and I don't think there is any need for people to mock anothers religion, we all believe in our own thing, and we should all respect each others decisions.
I choose not too believe in religion, and if people pick at that, I don't care, because it's my opinion.

[OnOneRyder]

I think criticism and skepticism is healthy, even in regards to religion as it is a very important subject. It is a personal choice yes, but when a large group shares the same religious faith they allow their beliefs on religious matters to make decisions on non-religious situations...like voting. I find it to be very unhealthy how many people vote purely on a candidates religious beliefs, it's almost sickening that someone will trust an individual with their country despite contradicting opinions on major topics solely because they share the same belief of who is looking down at them from the sky. Being a skeptic and encouraging those of faith to question their beliefs (not discourage their beliefs) so they really do truly agree with the whole picture I think is a good thing. Simply putting someone down because of a differing opinion however (mocking) has no place.

[Heartless Angel]

Technically speaking, I'm agnostic, though I strongly lean towards athiesm. As such, I don't really have a religion to mock, but having bible thumpers try to cram theirs down my throat is similar enough for me to make a point from.

Generally, partially because I'm a critical thinker and philosopher, and partially because I'm a huge ****, I imeddiately respond to anybody trying to force their religion on me simpyly by asking, "why?". Why should I believe what you tell me to? Then I kinda lead em around in circles via the socratic method for a while, ultimately resulting in them either subscribing to subjectivism, in which which case they've completely failed to prove, or even support that I should do anything other than what I already am, or I find some nice holes to pick in their arguments and end up converting them to my lack of religion through logic, though that occurs much less often.

Then of course there's the even more uncommon scenario in which case a Westboro jackass confronts me when I counterprotest whenever they show up anywhere near here. Them I usually don't watse the effort on, I just point, laugh, and move on with my counterprotesting. Some people just have their heads so far up their own asses, there's not really even a point in trying to reason with them. These people are what I like to refer to as "insane", and shouldn't be taken seriously anyways, hence the pointing and laughter as a response to them.

I must agree with OnOneRyder. Simple bashing is idiotic, but forcing people to question their faith is a good thing, as it brings people to develop better reasons to believe what they believe, or realize that what they have believed isn't worth putting faith into. As Socrates once said, the unexamined life is not worth living.

[Pipboy2000]

Well I'm actually atheist but I go to a christian school. So when ever any of my classmates try to use my atheism as an insult I just show them how illogical their religion is and tell them that is the opposite of what the bible tells them to do to "non believers".

[Judge Magistrate]

I am a devout Catholic, but I have a lot of friends that aren't. Some of them would be considered the "enemies" of the Catholics. I love my faith and I wouldn't leave it for the world. Having said this, I'm not going to force my beliefs on someone else. A Catholic that tries to do this is not a real Catholic, you welcome the people, but they don't have to join. God said in the Bible that he came for peace and he would not force people to follow Him, they had to choose.

If people try to mock me or my religion of course I'm going to defend it and myself. It is the job of a Catholic to defend their faith. Like I said though, I have plenty of non-Catholic friends, and I like it that way.

[nickness89]

I know this sounds like a weird thing to be writing in a religious based thread, but here goes...

It's not so much that people comment on my "religion" per se, but I am gay, and also believe that there is a Godly or higher being out there. Nearly everyone I know has the basic idea of my beliefs, yet still always challenge me, saying that being gay means that I can't believe in God. This is my experience of people mocking my "religion" even though it isn't a full-out religion, like worshipping and the like.

When people comment on it, they tend to think that I am a hypocrite for believeing in an entity, and being a sinful "gay." To be honest, I have no problem with people saying this, because at the end of the day, we all believe different things, and all have different ideas of "sinning." Thing is in my case, it always seems to be Christians that bash me as well. I have a few Jewish friends, who don't mind, I also have two Muslim friends who couldn't care less of my sexual orientation. Also, two of my family members are Pagan, as are lots of my close friends, and obviously that is more a case of loving and respecting every living thing, so they are very supportive. However, in my community I continuously get questioned by Christians of all sects. They actually have the audacity to say to me "you are filthy if you think you can have a belief in a god and still live your lifestyle." Bad news i'm afraid, but Christians are notorious for "purging" throughout history, the murder of millions of innocent people. I'm not Christian bashing, just merely showing that the statements made to me a totally hypocritical. As are most religions.

As for the main point of the thread: my reactions?

I just tell them that everyone has the right to their own beliefs, and that if they continue to harass me and bash others for their beliefs, then it is going against their own God's wishes, as he says to "Love thy neighbour." This usually makes them think twice before mocking or criticising other people's beliefs, no matter if they are religious or not.

[Judge Magistrate]

I can speak from my Catholic perspective and say that I don't care if your gay. I have some gay friends, I think as long as you love God you're okay.

[AshNStuff]

I'm an atheist, and I haven't come out to my family about it yet. My dad is a super-christian and the rest of my family idk. So obviously, I would never mock anybody else for what they believe in because I know how it feels to be an outcast. I think people need to get over it all, NOBODY really knows what will happen after we die. & I hate when people say they are CERTAIN that 'you're going to hell' or whatever. If you're a real Christian, then you know that only your God can be the judge of that.

[nickness89]

If you're a real Christian, then you know that only your God can be the judge of that.

Precisely :') And thank you for pointing that out btw.

Also, as you said, nobody knows what is going to happen when we die. Isn't that basically the fundamentals of a religion, basically how many Gods you have and what happens after you die? If I were religious, I would be worried about getting myself into Heaven, than being busy mocking people about their non-religious life. Unless it's a psychological case of "I'm going to Heaven and you're going to Hell" <-- aka bragging? This is not my opinion,I'm just wondering if anyone would agree with this ...

[AshNStuff]

Precisely :') And thank you for pointing that out btw.

Also, as you said, nobody knows what is going to happen when we die. Isn't that basically the fundamentals of a religion, basically how many Gods you have and what happens after you die? If I were religious, I would be worried about getting myself into Heaven, than being busy mocking people about their non-religious life. Unless it's a psychological case of "I'm going to Heaven and you're going to Hell" <-- aka bragging? This is not my opinion,I'm just wondering if anyone would agree with this ...

I completely agree, I guess it's the childish side of these people. Nana nana boo boo type of thing lol. It's ridiculous. I think that next time somebody tries to shove their religion down my throat, I'll point that out

[Judge Magistrate]

If people are mocking you for your religion than they are not doing a good job of reaching Heaven. As a Catholic I am to care about other people regarless of their religion. I think I do that, I'm not going to attack anyone for their religion, and anyone that does is not a very good person.

[AshNStuff]

If people are mocking you for your religion than they are not doing a good job of reaching Heaven. As a Catholic I am to care about other people regarless of their religion. I think I do that, I'm not going to attack anyone for their religion, and anyone that does is not a very good person.

Yeah, I know that. There are the respectable people out there who understand that some people are different, but unfortunately I can't speak for everyone when I say that.

[Judge Magistrate]

A pity, you must not know very many nice people. You seem like a nice person, and regarless of your religion people should try and get to know you better.

Thanks for the complement Nickness, it means a lot to hear that from someone.

[Firefly]

@ Nickness: I am a Christian,and to be honest with you..I really don't care if a person is gay or not,its THEIR choice and everyone should respect that. People then tell me," Oh if thats the way you feel,then your not a TRUE Christian." Who cares if I think men and women can make any choice they want on love,that doesn't mean I still don't believe in God and etc.

Anways,back to the topic.I live in a small town,and almost everyone is a Christian,but sometimes someone,who is not a Christian,will start bashing my religion in my face. I like to keep the peace,so I kindly ask them to stop because...I'm a Christian,and if they keep going..usually I will just walk away....

[nickness89]

If people are mocking you for your religion than they are not doing a good job of reaching Heaven. As a Catholic I am to care about other people regarless of their religion. I think I do that, I'm not going to attack anyone for their religion, and anyone that does is not a very good person.

Well, you have certainly been doing a very good job of being caring for your TFF friends That wasn't sarcastic by the way, you are genuinely very nice and helpful to everyone

I may change your Title on my TFF family from Bestest Friend to Good Samaritan

[Alpha]

Rowan, you don't seem to understand hiw anyone could possibly think differently to you. That's a sign of arrogance, in my opinion.

I accept anyone's beliefs, and I don't challenge them, unless they are hypocritical. If someone tells you they believe in the Judeo-Christian God "just because", then that reasoning is sufficient to me because I understand that it is somebody else's reasoning.

I think what HA is that, ultimately, we all believe something. Nobody's personal views/beliefs can be challenged, at a very fundamental level. So I tend to go with "live and let live". If you tell me you believe in mermaids and leprechauns, I nay find it silly, but I'll keep that to myself; your views aren't doing me any harm, and they're probably giving you some comfort. Personally, I think that's enough

If someone does challenge my beliefs/views, I'll hear them out. They nay be smarter than me. But if they aren't challenging them, but rather degrading them, I'll block them out on the basis that they're an arrogant ****. So Rowan, shh.

[Rowan]

Rowan, you don't seem to understand hiw anyone could possibly think differently to you. That's a sign of arrogance, in my opinion.

I accept anyone's beliefs, and I don't challenge them, unless they are hypocritical. If someone tells you they believe in the Judeo-Christian God "just because", then that reasoning is sufficient to me because I understand that it is somebody else's reasoning.

I think what HA is that, ultimately, we all believe something. Nobody's personal views/beliefs can be challenged, at a very fundamental level. So I tend to go with "live and let live". If you tell me you believe in mermaids and leprechauns, I nay find it silly, but I'll keep that to myself; your views aren't doing me any harm, and they're probably giving you some comfort. Personally, I think that's enough

If someone does challenge my beliefs/views, I'll hear them out. They nay be smarter than me. But if they aren't challenging them, but rather degrading them, I'll block them out on the basis that they're an arrogant ****. So Rowan, shh.

You're completly wrong. I know people can think differently to me, its just the idea of religion and god is comepletly absurd and everytime I ask for the evidence which is stated in the bible that every christian must provide, noone can give me anything worthy of an argument. You think its arrogant that someone challenge your beliefs with sound argument. You dont want to explain your beliefs even though the bible states you must, just makes you even more of a hypocrite than what you think.

Just because someone says "its just what I believe" is good enough for you, then going by your logic, then you are the arrogant one that cant understand why someone might not accept that answer.

[Alpha]

No one can give YOU an argument you accept. Therefore YOU Choose not to believe. Have you considered that the test of one's beliefs is not whether or not Rowan accepts them as permissible?

Would you go to an indigenous society, and tell them to abandon their cultural systems and metaphysical beliefs on the basis that THEIR OWN REASONS are not sufficient for YOU to accept the sane things?

Sorry for all the caps lock. I'm on my iPod, so it's easier than italics. This also explains the spelling.

[Rowan]

No one can give YOU an argument you accept. Therefore YOU Choose not to believe. Have you considered that the test of one's beliefs is not whether or not Rowan accepts them as permissible?

Would you go to an indigenous society, and tell them to abandon their cultural systems and metaphysical beliefs on the basis that THEIR OWN REASONS are not sufficient for YOU to accept the sane things?

Sorry for all the caps lock. I'm on my iPod, so it's easier than italics. This also explains the spelling.

I understand what you mean. But if you think "just because" is a logical reason to devote your life to beliving something without any evidence or proof, then good on you. In fact, if you think logical reasons arnt warranted to believe in something then you are a fool. We've established that you accept that and I dont. But what you're trying to say is that because I dont accept that, im at fault. Which is where YOUR arrogance bleeds through. I only ever asked questions (one question as a matter of fact) and apparantly she was very offended. And that was because she couldn't justify her beliefs. Dont make me quote the bible again.

[Alpha]

No, I thought I stated quite clearly that it is not logical. I agreed with HA in saying that everything, ultimately, is illogical.

Because I accept that, I allow beliefs about things that I can't prove or disprove to slide. I don't care, it doesn't harm me, and it benefits them. By leaving people to their devices, we all win. If they are themselves are motivated to investigate their beliefs good on them -- as I hope we all have at some stage

I just understand why people get so in your face about it. To ne, atheists are just as guilty of proselytisation as any Christian or Buddhist I've ever met.

Live and let live.

[Rowan]

No, I thought I stated quite clearly that it is not logical. I agreed with HA in saying that everything, ultimately, is illogical.

Because I accept that, I allow beliefs about things that I can't prove or disprove to slide. I don't care, it doesn't harm me, and it benefits them. By leaving people to their devices, we all win. If they are themselves are motivated to investigate their beliefs good on them -- as I hope we all have at some stage

I just understand why people get so in your face about it. To ne, atheists are just as guilty of proselytisation as any Christian or Buddhist I've ever met.

Live and let live.

Im okay with most of that.

to put it simply,

I cannot prove god doesnt exist, nor am I here to.
I believe that due to a lack of evidence, theres no reason to believe a god exists. I asked a question and wasnt provided with any evidence. Only with a 'just because' which I found to be a poor reason. It is a poor reason.

one thing ill never understand, is why you think everything is illogical. Philosophically, yeah I guess you can say that. But really, thats not practical at all and seems like a last resort at making an argument.

Its along the same lines as "well how do you know its REALLY air you're breathing?"

In which I would respond to "what we have classified as oxygen, allows us to sustain our brains and bodies and is recognized in mathematical terms and equations that are (i will reiterate once again) both practical and useful. Testability, repeatabiliy. Nothing else would allow us to live. We have proof of this.



Edit:

I think its worth mentioning that I dont deal in absoloute certaincies, I deal with proof and the LOGICAL option.

[Heartless Angel]

I cannot prove god doesnt exist, nor am I here to.
I believe that due to a lack of evidence, theres no reason to believe a god exists. I asked a question and wasnt provided with any evidence. Only with a 'just because' which I found to be a poor reason. It is a poor reason.

However, ultimately there is no real reason to believe anything at all. The only purpose it serves is give an individual a sense of understanding of the world and one's place in it. For some this is science, for others religion and spirituality. If you're into pragmatics, there's the ultimate reason for you. Without our beliefs, whatever they may be, none of us would be able to function.

one thing ill never understand, is why you think everything is illogical. Philosophically, yeah I guess you can say that. But really, thats not practical at all and seems like a last resort at making an argument.

Actually, it's among the most difficult of all arguments to make. You yourself take the first step into it, but you don't continue. Somebody poses an opinion to you you disagree with, your first question is, "why?". This is appropriate, and is the correct first step. However from there, you simply accept or reject the argument. To reach the conclusion that all is illogical, one must repeat the process and look at the premises for the argument given and ask, "Why?". Another argument will be presented for these premises, still can't pass judgement, we need to understand more about why we think what we think. You keep asking why long enough, and keep breaking down each and every belief, and figuring out what other beliefs they need to stand on, eventually you reach the fundamental levels of a person's beliefs. This is when we hit the particularly nasty questions such as, "Well then, what is existence?", "How did the universe begin?". No data from within the entity we know as the material universe can ever explain concepts that lie outside of it. We run out of empirical data to base these fundamental beliefs on, because all empirical data is contingent on their answers. Even if we found a logical conlusion for them, I can turn around and whip out the "Logically, what makes your understanding of logic correct?", which is literally logically unanswerable. There are things which we can't ever know, we can only believe, because without these beliefs al of our other beliefs and the things we accept as truth fall apart around us, and we become lost. To seek truth, and find that the only truth is, we can't grasp the truth, is among the most diffifult conclusions to accept as a critical thinker.

I think its worth mentioning that I dont deal in absoloute certaincies, I deal with proof and the LOGICAL option.

This is perfectly illogical. As the very definition of logical proof demands that premises make the conclusion nescessarily true. You only have proof if you can establish absolute certainty. If you can't establish proof through deduction, the other options is establishing evidence through induction. Induction can NOT prove a conclusion, it can suggest and support it, but never establish certainty. Without that certainty, to accept the conclusionas true (which is an absolute) anyways relies on faith. If you do not have absolute certainty, you must have faith, or you have nothing more than believing it because it suits you.

[Rowan]

However, ultimately there is no real reason to believe anything at all. The only purpose it serves is give an individual a sense of understanding of the world and one's place in it. For some this is science, for others religion and spirituality. If you're into pragmatics, there's the ultimate reason for you. Without our beliefs, whatever they may be, none of us would be able to function.



Actually, it's among the most difficult of all arguments to make. You yourself take the first step into it, but you don't continue. Somebody poses an opinion to you you disagree with, your first question is, "why?". This is appropriate, and is the correct first step. However from there, you simply accept or reject the argument. To reach the conclusion that all is illogical, one must repeat the process and look at the premises for the argument given and ask, "Why?". Another argument will be presented for these premises, still can't pass judgement, we need to understand more about why we think what we think. You keep asking why long enough, and keep breaking down each and every belief, and figuring out what other beliefs they need to stand on, eventually you reach the fundamental levels of a person's beliefs. This is when we hit the particularly nasty questions such as, "Well then, what is existence?", "How did the universe begin?". No data from within the entity we know as the material universe can ever explain concepts that lie outside of it. We run out of empirical data to base these fundamental beliefs on, because all empirical data is contingent on their answers. Even if we found a logical conlusion for them, I can turn around and whip out the "Logically, what makes your understanding of logic correct?", which is literally logically unanswerable. There are things which we can't ever know, we can only believe, because without these beliefs al of our other beliefs and the things we accept as truth fall apart around us, and we become lost. To seek truth, and find that the only truth is, we can't grasp the truth, is among the most diffifult conclusions to accept as a critical thinker.



This is perfectly illogical. As the very definition of logical proof demands that premises make the conclusion nescessarily true. You only have proof if you can establish absolute certainty. If you can't establish proof through deduction, the other options is establishing evidence through induction. Induction can NOT prove a conclusion, it can suggest and support it, but never establish certainty. Without that certainty, to accept the conclusionas true (which is an absolute) anyways relies on faith. If you do not have absolute certainty, you must have faith, or you have nothing more than believing it because it suits you.

You say theres no real reason to believe anything, thats asinine! why do you bother going to school? why do you bother learning at university? its all just lies and shit, quit now and devote your life to something that doesnt need proof!

since when did proof mean something was absolutly correct? if you insist, I shall add 'viable' to the word proof.

There is faith which is believing something without a good reason and VIABLE proof. an example would be the pluto statement. We have only known about it for 70 years but we know that it orbits the sun once every 200 years.

We dont have faith that it orbits every 200 years, what we have is scientific evidence. Just because its not 100 percent certain (although our equations tell us this, it could explode for some reason before then) we have evidence, the testability and repeatabality of our respective models.

that is not such a hard thing to understand

no reason=faith
testabality+repeatability=proof(viable)

i wont continue until this is acknowledged.

[Heartless Angel]

That's a simple question to answer. Because we choose to. We choose to look for a asense of order, and a place we belong in this world. It is that that gives us the illusion of purpose. In reality, we have none. We exist by mere coincidence, and the universe wouldn't care at all if we didn't. We have no purpose. There is no reason for anything we think or do. If everybody percieved everything in another way entirely, and everything we thought we knew was turned upside down, the truth would remain constant regardless, the universe doesn't care, we serve no purpose.

You seem to be misisng the point I attempted to make. You look only at the argument at hand. For your pluto example, you look nly at the numbers and data about pluto you have. Not even once do you question why you believe those calculations are correct, what time is, why math is correct, whether what you know about Pluto is actually true. Without those beliefs (which would generally be called facts), your calculations mean nothing. Those beliefs you don't question are also not independant, why do you beleive whatever you believe about them? Everything we believe stands on other beliefs. Without those beliefs, everything we know means nothing. If even one of those beliefs is wrong, every belief standing on top of it also falls apart. What I'm saying, is the very most fundamental belief, our very definition of reality is beyond proof. Nothing that stands on that assumption can be certain, because that assumption itself is uncertain. We can only "know" things in terms of other things we "know", but really we don't know them at all, we believe them. We trust our senses. We do this for no better reason than that it seems right to us.

Faith is simply bridging the gap between what you know, and what you accept. Proof is certainty. Evidence is support. That support can get you close to certainty, but between the limit of your evidence and the conclusion is a gap. Logically, you have no reason to cross that gap, because there is insuffiecient reason to jump to that conclusion. You bridge that gap and reach the conclusion with faith. Faith in your observations, your experiences, the sum of your knowledge. They have not been proven to be true, you only accept them as such based on correspondance of evidence, which requires faith to accept.

To accept with absolutely no reason at all is blind faith. Blind faith does us no good, but with no faith at all, we would know nothing.

It seems we will not be continuing this, as you demand that I accept a definiton of proof that is not correct before we do. The definition of proof is other truths that establish the certainty of a conclusion. That we see it the same way every time does not mean we see it correctly. It doesn't even suggest it. It means the experiment was consistent, but to accept the conclusons we can draw for it, we ultimately have to believe that our undamental perceptions of reality were correct. We have no reason to do this. You cannot test existence itself without relying on your own assumptions of it, by your own definition, your very most fundamental belief can not be proven, nor can any that rely on it.

You deal in the limits of human observation, I deal in truth. You can not observe God, so you do not believe God. I do not know the truth, I accept that I do not know the truth, and do not do something so arrogant as assuming I do. I believe nothing, the only conclusion a lack of evidence can ever support.