Aerith and Zack <3

[Heartless Angel]

I consider it less valid as it was created to just make money, the very existence of it wobbles the foundations of the FF7 world/story.

because the original game was made to tell a story that someone just wrote for no apparent reason. Right. Newsflash, the original game was produced and sold to make money too.

And Cloud defeats Seph multiple times and Jenova and the Turks and Shinra and the Weapons, **** me Zack aint got shit on Cloud

Cloud defeats Seph by himself once. Twice if you consider AC. Jenova and the Turks weren't even powerful. Zack also fought and beat the Turks though if that matters. Zack also mowed down waves of Shinra infantry throughout the game, particularly during the final battle. And Cloud never did any of that himself. He had the help of 7 friends. Zack fights alone. And if we're gonna bring up optional bosses, Zack beats Minerva. A literal GOD. In one on one combat.

Plus Zack died outside Midgar, nowhere near home =/

Zack lived in Midgar <.< He may have been born in Gongaga, but he was living in Midgar, that's where he was heading, and where Aerith was waiting for him.

Perhaps Cloud was having a bad mako trip and was coming down badly and Zack was still buzzing, having an imaginary battle against 1000 soldiers in the space of 3 seconds, heck as long as were assuming and making shit up lets go hog wild no?

Who's "we"? You're the only one making shit up here.

[SOLDIER #819]

Zack's end in FFVII and Crisis Core are different. Cloud was never behind a rock in FFVII, nor did Zack get blown away to the edge of a cliff while checking up on Cloud in Crisis Core.

This would be Zack's legendary two rounds with Sephiroth: Final Fantasy VII Playthrough Part 45 The Real Cloud - YouTube Most taxing 10 seconds of Sephiroth's life.

And I don't even know why I'm making this into CSI: Midgar. Crisis Core came out 10 years later, and it did a good job of filling in what people feel are now "gaps" in FFVII's story. But that doesn't mean Zack was conceived during FFVII's development as the epic character he is portrayed as in Crisis Core. It was something they came up with later for a new game. So in the same way I block out episodes I-III of Star Wars, I'm blocking out this. Not because it's bad, but because I'd have to also view Advent Children as canon, and a world where the Turks are comic relief and Cloud ends up with one of the shittiest 2-D personalities imaginable is something I just don't want to accept.

WHY DOES EVERYTHING NOMURA TOUCHES TURN TO SQUALL?

(Nothing against Squall)

[nix]

Zack's end in FFVII and Crisis Core are different. Cloud was never behind a rock in FFVII, nor did Zack get blown away to the edge of a cliff while checking up on Cloud in Crisis Core.

This would be Zack's legendary two rounds with Sephiroth: Final Fantasy VII Playthrough Part 45 The Real Cloud - YouTube Most taxing 10 seconds of Sephiroth's life.

And I don't even know why I'm making this into CSI: Midgar. Crisis Core came out 10 years later, and it did a good job of filling in what people feel are now "gaps" in FFVII's story. But that doesn't mean Zack was conceived during FFVII's development as the epic character he is portrayed as in Crisis Core. It was something they came up with later for a new game. So in the same way I block out episodes I-III of Star Wars, I'm blocking out this. Not because it's bad, but because I'd have to also view Advent Children as canon, and a world where the Turks are comic relief and Cloud ends up with one of the shittiest 2-D personalities imaginable is something I just don't want to accept.

WHY DOES EVERYTHING NOMURA TOUCHES TURN TO SQUALL?

(Nothing against Squall)

Couldn't have said it better myself, infact its exactly what ive been trying to say this whole time, damn my way with words, damnit all!

Also Cloud and Zack were injected with Jenova cells which would give them a mental connection to one another, he didnt exactly set out to steal his identity, it was an accident, hes not Don Draper

And the shit you were making up was Clouds mental awareness, you assumed he was blind or unconscious for the whole Zack end scene, which the flashback from HIS memory clearly shows he was conscious and saw what happened, he witnessed it, if he didnt he wouldnt have figured it all out and recovered, he just simply forgot.

And again Cloud didnt stab him from behind, he ran up behind him (not snuck) Seph turned and got a stabbing, prior to this Sephiroth didnt have a scratch on him, even after the few seconds double boss battle Zack fought prior to Cloud running in, Seph was showing signs of limping. So perfectly fine he was, prior to Cloud showing up even with Zacks "epic" battle, which would leave me to believe that Zacks battle shouldnt have been as epic as Crisis core made it out, as if Cloud had him limping after one hit, im assuming Zack may have got a punch or two in at most as Sephiroth looks perfectly fine in the scene below, not a scratch:


Also throughout FF7 they are constantly beefing up Sephiroth as a super soldier unmatched in battle, nobody even came close to this guys grace, until Cloud. But in Crisis Core Zack beats gods and can go toe to toe with Sephiroth? Surely there would have been some mention of this in FF7

In TV and movies they call it a continuity error, infact the more i delve into the CC story, the more glad i am i didnt get it, i found this and it just made me face palm, ill copy and paste as providing direct link may be a rule breach, and i think we all know i hate to get a warning,

Tseng Character Change from CC to FF7??

Ive looked around online and forums a LOT and have yet to find an answer thats satisfying. The explanation for Tseng's character change from CC to FF7.

In particular as to what his motives are in FF7 and why he bothers to slap Aeris on the plane just before the plater 7 is destroyed

Below are the answers ive found, but none of them seem to make sense

1. Tseng is only pretending to work for shinra. he slaps Aeris to keep his cover

The problem i have with that is WHY SLAP aeris when only cloud tifa and barett are watching..?
Also is this is true, what ARE his true motives in ff7?

2. Hes just following orders

But we see in crisis core he is very loyal to zack and aeris. at the END he even wants to find zack and cloud b4 shinra do to save his life. Yet in FF7 hes not bothered one bit. Also WHY doesnt he remember cloud? It was only 5 years apart? He saw him in Modeoheim. Zack even introduces them two. And remember cloud is using the BUSTER SWORD that Tseng saw Angeal and Zack use so many times!

3. The writers didnt bother. After all CC is made after ff7''

Thats probably the most likely but i have a problem with that. They DELIBERATELY made Tseng good in CC. at the end of CC we clearly see Tseng trying to save Zack's life while Shinra are trying to kill him. They deliberately added the scene at the end to leave no doubt that Tseng is not evil and is loyal to zack OVER shinra. Then in FF7 why is he an ass to Zack's Girlfriend, Aerith???

I guess the real reason is a combination of all three? Tseng was seen as the good guy in CC because its from a totally different perspective. but then like i said, at the end Tseng takes Zack's side over Shinra. In ff7 he slaps zack's GF? is that simply a bigtime continuity error from the writers?

If he is just following orders then why go against shinra orders and try and save zack in ff7?

Think i knocked a tooth out i face palmed so hard..

[Xanatos]

Also throughout FF7 they are constantly beefing up Sephiroth as a super soldier unmatched in battle, nobody even came close to this guys grace, until Cloud. But in Crisis Core Zack beats gods and can go toe to toe with Sephiroth? Surely there would have been some mention of this in FF7

According to Square and I shit you not (even several die hard VII fans here on TFF confirmed what I'm about to say), it's not that Cloud was on par with Sephiroth as much as Sephiroth didn't give a rats ass whether he'll win or lose, apparently Sephiroth underestimated his opponent three times in a row (talk about a shity villain, ey), so no, Cloud's not nearly as strong as Sephiroth, at least not according to Square and huge amount of fans.

[Rowan]

Okay guys, I was reading this topic on my phone before I realised that I would need to jump on the comp to have my say. The joys of interpretation, seriously. Love it. First off, I agree that the story would have been more epic had zack been the one who was taking the lead, but I also believe that because it wasn't, it paved the way for a more interesting story. Cloud had always been an enigma, from the very begining. His life was a lie, yes, but a lie that he didnt create for himself, but rather had pieced together through years of tortue/experimentation that lead to him actually believing what he understood to be as truth. You cant blame him for this. Zack was a hero, one of the greatest heroes of the genre, he accomplished so much and the only time he ever failed was to the shinra. Unfortunately, an undignified end considering the lengths of his power which lead him to destroy a so called "god" - Minerva. Cloud, as much as he can be perceived as an angsty little shit, is a victim of circumstance. He didnt get the best deal in life. Tifa's breasts are incredible. Cloud obviously doesnt remember that he could have had these breasts, they gotta be like 14F , right? love that tight strap, giving out the perkiness of those funbags, geeze, they are something special. blah blah blah

you're all forgetting that cloud was the only one to be able to defeat sephiroth, maybe he wasn't so useless afterall. @HA, he managed to defeat sephiroth on his own in AC. By the way, if zack is so wonderful, why do you think he chose cloud to carry on his legacy? He obviously saw something in cloud which is why he risked his life to protect him. People bashing cloud here are only bashing his personality and not actually acknowledging any of his achievements. The pain that cloud felt throughout the entirety of Advent Children was that of a person who believed that it was because of him that she died. Remember? He was still grieving her death, he blamed himself, this much is purely evident if you watch the film. Theres no mention of a love, nor is a love implied. Cloud couldn't let go of aeris because he blamed himself for her death. So may be excuse him if he appears angsty, but I think its kinda the point when you're carrying the weight of a dead comrade on your shoulders.

[nix]

According to Square and I shit you not (even several die hard VII fans here on TFF confirmed what I'm about to say), it's not that Cloud was on par with Sephiroth as much as Sephiroth didn't give a rats ass whether he'll win or lose, apparently Sephiroth underestimated his opponent three times in a row (talk about a shity villain, ey), so no, Cloud's not nearly as strong as Sephiroth, at least not according to Square and huge amount of fans.

There is no real way to determine that really, its also not what i meant if your getting it from the comment of mine you quoted..

[Xanatos]

There is no real way to determine that really, its also not what i meant if your getting it from the comment of mine you quoted..

My bad, I was referring to the first part of that quote, although yes, I got sidetracked...

[Heartless Angel]

Couldn't have said it better myself, infact its exactly what ive been trying to say this whole time, damn my way with words, damnit all!

Also Cloud and Zack were injected with Jenova cells which would give them a mental connection to one another, he didnt exactly set out to steal his identity, it was an accident, hes not Don Draper

Never said he intentionally, maliciously stole his identity. What I was getting at, is that he owes all that he is to Zack, not his own talents. Without Zack, he would've been just another one of the million Shinra infantry you mow down throughout the story.

And the shit you were making up was Clouds mental awareness, you assumed he was blind or unconscious for the whole Zack end scene, which the flashback from HIS memory clearly shows he was conscious and saw what happened, he witnessed it, if he didnt he wouldnt have figured it all out and recovered, he just simply forgot.

Actually, his memory only clearly shows only the end, of Zack being finished off by 3 men. So the fact that his memory didn't include the battle against an army seems to support my suggestion that Cloud wasn't entirely aware of his surroundings at the time. He wasn't even moving until just after that battle, which, again, suggests that he was just beginning to recover at that point. You see, the 'continuity errors' work themselves out when you stop working under the assumption that Cloud is perfect, and knew everything that ever happened in the history of his world.

And again Cloud didnt stab him from behind, he ran up behind him (not snuck) Seph turned and got a stabbing, prior to this Sephiroth didnt have a scratch on him, even after the few seconds double boss battle Zack fought prior to Cloud running in, Seph was showing signs of limping. So perfectly fine he was, prior to Cloud showing up even with Zacks "epic" battle, which would leave me to believe that Zacks battle shouldnt have been as epic as Crisis core made it out, as if Cloud had him limping after one hit, im assuming Zack may have got a punch or two in at most as Sephiroth looks perfectly fine in the scene below, not a scratch:

Again I must direct you to the video I posted. At about 5:10, Cloud charges, the glass in front of Sephiroth cracks, and the position his arm in, clearly shows that he is facing AWAY from Cloud, ergo, stabbed in the back. if, you know, seeing the sword stll stuck in his back a few seconds later doesn't tell you enough. Interesting, this 'continuity error' in the difference in the scenes of VII and CC also occurs in the memories of Cloud, who we know to have a perfect, photographic memory that never misses even the tinest detail. Except, you know, his entire past. So scenes stemming from his memories can hardly be considered Word of God absolute canonical truth.

Also throughout FF7 they are constantly beefing up Sephiroth as a super soldier unmatched in battle, nobody even came close to this guys grace, until Cloud. But in Crisis Core Zack beats gods and can go toe to toe with Sephiroth? Surely there would have been some mention of this in FF7

Zack's service record was falsified, he was labelled as KIA when Hojo got a hold of him. They covered up Zack's involvement with Sephiroth entirely, along with the entirety of the nibelheim incident, going so far as to rebuild the city and hire actors to pretend Nibelheim was just fine. The only eyewitness NOT among the liars, again, is our beloved protagonist with memory problems. So who would mention it exactly? Also, as you've already pointed out, Zack didn't exactly WIN that fight.

In TV and movies they call it a continuity error, infact the more i delve into the CC story, the more glad i am i didnt get it, i found this and it just made me face palm, ill copy and paste as providing direct link may be a rule breach, and i think we all know i hate to get a warning,

A continuity error occurs when we see two scenes from a narrative perspective that show two different things. This is not the case in Crisis core. Only Crisis core shows the narrative perspective of the events before VII. VII shows these events according to Cloud's memory. Cloud, whom we know to have amnesia, supressed traumatic memories, and was the victim of alien mind ****. As for the change in tseng, here's a nice dose of simplcity. She went from being the girlfriend of a high ranking Solider loyal to Shinra, and someone cooperating with Shinra, to joining Avalanche, an anti Shinra terrorist group, opposing them. She betrayed him, he owed her nothing.

you're all forgetting that cloud was the only one to be able to defeat sephiroth, maybe he wasn't so useless afterall.

After recieving enhancements from Hojo beyond what any normal Solider (like Zack) gets. He was the closest thing there was to another successful Jenova experimnt (which is what produced Sephiroth in the first place). Cloud was GIVEN the power to defeat Sephiroth. Zack was not.

@HA, he managed to defeat sephiroth on his own in AC. By the way, if zack is so wonderful, why do you think he chose cloud to carry on his legacy? He obviously saw something in cloud which is why he risked his life to protect him. People bashing cloud here are only bashing his personality and not actually acknowledging any of his achievements. The pain that cloud felt throughout the entirety of Advent Children was that of a person who believed that it was because of him that she died. Remember? He was still grieving her death, he blamed himself, this much is purely evident if you watch the film.

Well yeah, he could've picked from all the other friends he had nearby like... oh... nevermind. He took a page from Angeal's book, passing his sword, and what it symbolized to his friend, who shared a common goal of making it big in Solider. It seemed to me that Zack though of Cloud like a younger sibling or a mentee, in the same way he once was to Angeal, always trying to encourage him, give him advice, and ultimately choosing him as his successor, to get him to carry on the dreams and honor not only of himself, but Angeal as well. As Angeal's successor, Zack couldn't let his legacy die. As for why he chose to stand and fight to protect Cloud, that's just the kind of guy he was. Running from a fight was against everything he learned from and respected about his mentor. Running or abandoning his friend would have been dishonorable, and it would've dishonored Angeal's memory as well. Zack's dream was to be a hero, not to live happily ever after. Nobody dispute that Cloud was in pain, or whether he had a reason to be in pain. The guy's only human, that's where he differs from Zack. Cloud was just a man, Zack was a hero.

[Crescent]

Also Cloud and Zack were injected with Jenova cells which would give them a mental connection to one another, he didnt exactly set out to steal his identity, it was an accident, hes not Don Draper

And the shit you were making up was Clouds mental awareness, you assumed he was blind or unconscious for the whole Zack end scene, which the flashback from HIS memory clearly shows he was conscious and saw what happened, he witnessed it, if he didnt he wouldnt have figured it all out and recovered, he just simply forgot.

Also throughout FF7 they are constantly beefing up Sephiroth as a super soldier unmatched in battle, nobody even came close to this guys grace, until Cloud. But in Crisis Core Zack beats gods and can go toe to toe with Sephiroth? Surely there would have been some mention of this in FF7

In TV and movies they call it a continuity error, infact the more i delve into the CC story, the more glad i am i didnt get it, i found this and it just made me face palm, ill copy and paste as providing direct link may be a rule breach, and i think we all know i hate to get a warning,

Tseng Character Change from CC to FF7??

Ive looked around online and forums a LOT and have yet to find an answer thats satisfying. The explanation for Tseng's character change from CC to FF7.

In particular as to what his motives are in FF7 and why he bothers to slap Aeris on the plane just before the plater 7 is destroyed

Below are the answers ive found, but none of them seem to make sense

1. Tseng is only pretending to work for shinra. he slaps Aeris to keep his cover

The problem i have with that is WHY SLAP aeris when only cloud tifa and barett are watching..?
Also is this is true, what ARE his true motives in ff7?

2. Hes just following orders

But we see in crisis core he is very loyal to zack and aeris. at the END he even wants to find zack and cloud b4 shinra do to save his life. Yet in FF7 hes not bothered one bit. Also WHY doesnt he remember cloud? It was only 5 years apart? He saw him in Modeoheim. Zack even introduces them two. And remember cloud is using the BUSTER SWORD that Tseng saw Angeal and Zack use so many times!

3. The writers didnt bother. After all CC is made after ff7''

Thats probably the most likely but i have a problem with that. They DELIBERATELY made Tseng good in CC. at the end of CC we clearly see Tseng trying to save Zack's life while Shinra are trying to kill him. They deliberately added the scene at the end to leave no doubt that Tseng is not evil and is loyal to zack OVER shinra. Then in FF7 why is he an ass to Zack's Girlfriend, Aerith???

I guess the real reason is a combination of all three? Tseng was seen as the good guy in CC because its from a totally different perspective. but then like i said, at the end Tseng takes Zack's side over Shinra. In ff7 he slaps zack's GF? is that simply a bigtime continuity error from the writers?

If he is just following orders then why go against shinra orders and try and save zack in ff7?

Spot. On.

As much I like Crisis Core, Ive always kept to myself the EXACT same questions about Tseng esp the part where he backhanded that ANNOYING SKANK in FFVII but I laughed it off n put it to the side. Went into Crisis Core knowing full well there'd be discrepancies between that n the original, srsly Genesis is the most randomest character ever, but I appreciate their efforts in trying to weave it in with the original. With the exception of graphics (which arguably FFVII still wins because it's graphics were much more revolutionary and advanced at the time than Crisis Core's) the original Final Fantasy VII was/is better in EVERY SINGLE way. With that said, I do think Crisis Core is a damn good game and very worthy of FFVII, but I COMPLETELY understand those of you that don't If theres anything FFVII-related to debate about you should always go from the original I mean thats what this entire compilation stems from! But then I guess it becomes a question of whether some of us interpreted it correctly, unless the FFVII creators otherwise specified such as in the Ultimania booklets (includes interviews with FFVII team n MUCH, MUCH MORE) which are unfortunately (4some) published in japanese it'd set in stone some of your guys' statements (Ive read the books I'm not interested in enlightening some of u that are WAY off its quite amusing). I don't want to get into this Zack vs Cloud debate cause its trying to compare two kinds of AWESOME.. I love Cloud a lot more n it might be the same reason Aerith prefers him over Zack.

[Merlin]

If you have evidence that would shed light on the discussion, instead of flaunting it in people's faces and making fun of their opinions, you should provide it.

[Crescent]

If you have evidence that would shed light on the discussion, instead of flaunting it in people's faces and insulting their opinions, you should provide it.

..hmm no. I won't. @HA and @Nix are doing damn fine without my help and it could also be an underlying argument of preference.

[SOLDIER #819]

After recieving enhancements from Hojo beyond what any normal Solider (like Zack) gets. He was the closest thing there was to another successful Jenova experimnt (which is what produced Sephiroth in the first place). Cloud was GIVEN the power to defeat Sephiroth. Zack was not.

Was this another thing revealed exclusively in Crisis Core? All SOLDIERs were showered with mako and injected with Jenova cells, Zack included. What Cloud and Zack went through while being experimented on by Hojo was no different than the process that every legitimate SOLDIER member had already gone through. The thing that separated Zack from Cloud was that Zack, like any other SOLDIER (e.g. ex-SOLDIER NPC in Junon around the end of disc 1/beginning of disc 2), was resistant to Jenova's influence. Cloud, by his own admission, did not have the will to resist despite having the physical traits necessary to be in SOLDIER. He hadn't been given anything that Zack didn't already have.

Final Fantasy VII Playthrough Part 45 The Real Cloud - YouTube

[Heartless Angel]

Soldier are showered with mako, and Jenova cells, yes. Hojo's experiments in Nibelheim went beyond that. Cloud and Zack were exposed to Sephiroth's cells to make them better than normal Soldier. Sephiroth, Angeal, and Genesis were the only truly successful Jenova experiments. The legion of hooded black dudes were failed experiments reproducing a Soldier of Sephiroth's quality, which Hojo refers to Cloud as one of. Zack and Cloud were another attempt at recreating the success achieved with the creation of Sephiroth. What seperated Sephiroth from normal Soldiers, that's what Hojo's experiments in Nibelheim were trying to find and reproduce. Something about Sephiroth was different, different enough that the same procedue led to the test tube monsters found in the Nibelheim reactor, and black hooded wierdos when applied to other people.

[SOLDIER #819]

Not sure where you're getting that Hojo's Sephiroth clone experiments went beyond that of what SOLDIER members were put through. Explicitly stated or otherwise, if it's something out of Crisis Core I'm bound to not accept it, but it's good to be in the know either way.

That said, I think we're both aware that Cloud and Zack, unlike Sephiroth, were not surprise attacked by a syringe full of Jenova cells while they were still in their mother's womb. Perhaps Hojo at the time had exhausted his catalogue of expectant mothers and didn't feel like turning on the ol' charm to get a few more. But who is to question a mad scientist's methods?

What am I even talking about...?

[nix]

I taught i had already covered the Seph stabbing with proof, but it seems my dumbass posted the same video twice, ill go it again



Skip to 3:20 and 6:30

You can cleary see Seph turning around before the noise of the hit motion even takes place, again your posting vids to CC which of course would be correcting the continuity errors, but that just goes to show the flashbacks are different, they altered the story to support their bullshit zack story, TOO TAKE YOUR MONEY, alot of love went into the FF7 story, alot of planning went into CC. People were gonna buy it just because of the ff7 name. Highest grossing playstation one game to date excluding gran turismo. It would have sold regardless..

And continuity errors touch off more than just spot the difference in scenes, there are different kinds.

And did Zack help Cloud defeat Sephiroth? Looks like he done it all by himself from where im standing

I'm not denying Zack was an important mentor to Cloud, but thats just all it was, Cloud became so much more.. Cloud defeated more powerful foes and never died failing

If there was any logic to the Zack 1000 man battle i would accept it, if he even reappeard a couple of minutes later as opposed to seconds, or if even looking slightly tired. But no, you hear 2 sword slashes and then he runs back fine to pick cloud up an gets shot.

Again, if cloud wasnt conscious at the time he would never have figured out what happened, we wouldnt have seen what happened in FF7

And then there is the whole Tseng character change, and thats only the first thing that came up when searched.

If someone tells a story, and then someone else tells the same story but it is different in parts, someone is bullshitting


But hey, this kind of discussion is pointless, we could likely go on forever. I've no problem with people enjoying Crisis core, but lets treat it as it is in regards to FF7, a spin off to appease the large fan base, but thats all it was, they excecuted it poorly by taking away from the characters of FF7 and beefing up other characters, and changing the story so it woul make more sense to the story they wanted to make up.

It happens alot when other people start messing with other peoples work, take Terminator movies franchise for example. First 2 movies made by James Cameron, masterpieces in my opinion, made perfect sense to one another. Big shots decide they want to milk the franchise even though the story is complete. James Cameron refuses so they give it to someone else, and what did they do? Completely ruin it!

So to this day to me, there is only 2 Terminator movies, the rest is money making horse shit and it clearly shows.

I'm sorry but thats just how i feel and I'm not hallucinating

[Heartless Angel]

I taught i had already covered the Seph stabbing with proof, but it seems my dumbass posted the same video twice, ill go it again



Skip to 3:20 and 6:30

You can cleary see Seph turning around before the noise of the hit motion even takes place, again your posting vids to CC which of course would be correcting the continuity errors, but that just goes to show the flashbacks are different, they altered the story to support their bullshit zack story, TOO TAKE YOUR MONEY, alot of love went into the FF7 story, alot of planning went into CC. People were gonna buy it just because of the ff7 name. Highest grossing playstation one game to date excluding gran turismo. It would have sold regardless..

Again I point out the difference in perspective. the scenes in FFVII were from Clouds memories. Memories can be flawed, we know for a fact that Cloud has had his ****ed with. Crisis Core did not occur as a flashback or memories, we were witnessing events as they happened. We were there to SEE cloud stab Sephiroth in the back, not just listening to Cloud say he didn't five years later. You're comparing hearing someone's testimony about an event to being there yourself to witness it. The fact that you personally do not accept the extended canon is not an argument against it. It's there whether you like it or not, and makes perfect sense when you drop the assumption that Cloud's memories are flawless, which is a bad assumption in the first place when we know for a fact his memories are NOT flawless. Games are all produced to make money. That is not an argument against the validity of their canon when you don't like it.

And continuity errors touch off more than just spot the difference in scenes, there are different kinds.

Again, what was presented in FFVII was not the word of god, is was the memory of Cloud. We're not looking at two versions of an event. We're looking at one event, and one person's recollection of it. That the two are different is not a continuity error, it's evidence of faulty memory.

And did Zack help Cloud defeat Sephiroth? Looks like he done it all by himself from where im standing

You must have missed the 7 friends he had with him. You know, Barret, Tifa, Red XIII, Yuffie, Vincent, Cid, Cait Sith. You know, those guys. The only time he even fought him alone in FFVII was in his own mind, a symbolic battle of wills. Never did we witness Cloud beat Sephiroth in a one on one contest of strength and skill. Except in AC, but that was just made to make money, so it doesn't count, right?

I'm not denying Zack was an important mentor to Cloud, but thats just all it was, Cloud became so much more.. Cloud defeated more powerful foes and never died failing

If we ignore the half dozen times Zack saved his life, sure. Cloud was a man who let down his mentor, his girlfriend, his friends, his family, and everyone else he ever knew or loved. Cloud was a man manipulated into handing Sephiroth the means to destroy the world, while Aerith gave her life to try and save it. Cloud was a man who fought his battles 8 on 1 (or 3 on 1 if you only want to consider the 3 man parties the game mechanics allowed). Cloud was a man who continuously gave into despair until his friends dragged him out of it. The only important fight we've ever seen Cloud win on his own was in his own mind. Cloud never fought alone against a thousand men, and choppers firing rockets, to protect a friend after being weakened by experiments. Cloud by himself was nothing. All of Cloud accomplishments were earned by relying on the strength of others. His greatest accomplishment in reality was defeating a single super soldier with the help of 7 friends. Zack beat two of them by himself, one of them being his own mentor and best friend.

If there was any logic to the Zack 1000 man battle i would accept it, if he even reappeard a couple of minutes later as opposed to seconds, or if even looking slightly tired. But no, you hear 2 sword slashes and then he runs back fine to pick cloud up an gets shot.

Again, if cloud wasnt conscious at the time he would never have figured out what happened, we wouldnt have seen what happened in FF7

There is, you just choose to ignore it because it doesn't help your position that Cloud is awesome. Which seems to be the same reason you ignore the extended canon. But I'll go ahead and lay it down for you again. Cloud was recovering during that fight. Before it, he was still comatose. After, he was walking. So, during that fight he went from comatose, a state lacking in complete awareness, to having complete awareness. In between these two lies a state of partial awareness, allowing for him to have missed certain elements of the events that occurred This combined with having some of Zack's memories allowing him to remember bits and pieces of the time he wasn't completely aware, and his own faulty memories missing parts of the things he WAS aware of. The logic, again, is quite simple. FFVII shows us one man's memory. Crisis core shows us the actual events of that time. reject the extended canon all you like, it's still there.

And then there is the whole Tseng character change, and thats only the first thing that came up when searched.

Which I just offered a perfectly logical explanation for. But it seems you ignored that. I'm noticing a pattern here, you keep ignoring anything that doesn't support your position.

If someone tells a story, and then someone else tells the same story but it is different in parts, someone is bullshitting

And between the man with known memory defects recounting his memory, and the narrative perspective of CC witnessing the events, who do you think the one getting it right would be? I'm assuming you'd say Cloud, it would follow your current pattern of argument, but the logical answer is the narrative perspective of CC.

But hey, this kind of discussion is pointless, we could likely go on forever. I've no problem with people enjoying Crisis core, but lets treat it as it is in regards to FF7, a spin off to appease the large fan base, but thats all it was, they excecuted it poorly by taking away from the characters of FF7 and beefing up other characters, and changing the story so it woul make more sense to the story they wanted to make up.

Because the original story wasn't made up or anything, it was based on a true story. Both games were entirely made up. CC was made up within the confines of the original, it did not change anything that could not be explained. Note, there is a difference between "can not be explained", and "Nix does not like any of the possible explanations for it". That you don't like seeing an extended canon, which does NOT cause any actual continuity conflict when analyzed objectively is not an argument against it.

It happens alot when other people start messing with other peoples work, take Terminator movies franchise for example. First 2 movies made by James Cameron, masterpieces in my opinion, made perfect sense to one another. Big shots decide they want to milk the franchise even though the story is complete. James Cameron refuses so they give it to someone else, and what did they do? Completely ruin it!

So to this day to me, there is only 2 Terminator movies, the rest is money making horse shit and it clearly shows.

I'm sorry but thats just how i feel and I'm not hallucinating

Yes, we get it, you don't like it, so it doesn't count. If that's going to be the ultimate deciding factor of your position, there's no point in debating, you're going to go away believing whatever you want to believe anyways. Which is fine, by all means you're entitled to believe whatever you damned well please, but that does not constitute an argument.

[nix]

The Tseng cop out is weak at best, if anything he would have referred to her as a traitor if that was the case, surely there would have been some mention of it? But no, its as if Tseng had amnesia too right? And Aeris? Surely Reno at one point and his arrogance would have let somethin slip?

Also, FF7 is not from Clouds perspective, i dont know how you could think that. It's a story told from multiple peoples perspective, you can tell this by viewing many many scenes in which the story unfolds without Cloud even present, Everything was tied off in FF7 the game, the only uncertainty we were left with at the end of the game was, what happened after the ending.

Also check out the link, Final Fantasy VII: Hojo & the Jenova Reunion Theory quite a fetching read, guy gives a detailed breakdown, he even indicates evidence that Zack didnt even under go the same treatment as Cloud, or if he did, he was immune. Obviously as he shows no reaction to the mako and jenova cells, and why would hojo bother experimenting on Zack? clearly far inferior to Sephiroth, id pick the one that overpowered and killed Sephiroth to replace Sephiroth eh?

Cloud spends the whole game trying to reclaim his identity, when he breaks free from the life stream, he remembers EVERYTHING, hence his ability to block any further mind controlling, he knows for sure he is Cloud strife and not a mindless Clone

Also Cloud is thee only person to break the hold Jenova had, and then defeat both of them physically.. numerous times.. and Zack couldnt do it, once..

FF7 was the first game, obviously, for crisis core to make sense its events should be exactly leading into FF7, not altering it to make its story more palatable.

And i dont know about you, but i defeated all end game bosses with just Cloud (Emerald, Ruby, Sephiroth, Jenova) and thats with a battle system designed for a party of 3, crisis core was designed for a party of 1 and a more active battle system, so yeah..

Was gonna try completing the whole game itself with just Cloud back in the day, but at that point i had played the game to death and got everybody with all the best materia possible, even went so far as to max stats by morphing mobs on sunken plane and in gongaga. And have collected every possible item in game. So i really didnt feel like donating more crazy time time to that possible yet long winded feat. I might do it in the future if they release it on a handheld.

Anyway this is redundant, its pointless, as you said i refuse to accept Crisis core, simply as its telling an altered story. Much like i dont accept terminator 3 and 4 for a comparison.

And how are you considering one of the crisis core villans a god? they are just failed jenova clones right?

And lets try be more civil, myself included, were both clearly passionate about both stories and i have tremendous respect for you and don't wish to burn any bridges..

[Heartless Angel]

The Tseng cop out is weak at best, if anything he would have referred to her as a traitor if that was the case, surely there would have been some mention of it? But no, its as if Tseng had amnesia too right? And Aeris? Surely Reno at one point and his arrogance would have let somethin slip?

As you've pointed out numerous times, the original game wasn't written with CC in mind. That nobody ever explicitly stated it in the original does not mean it could never have happened. Tseng isn't a big talker anyways. And as a Turk, Reno wouldn't disobey an order from Tseng, like you know, blabbing about classified information about Zack if it existed. Tseng's loyalties lie with Shinra, not necessarily the president, but the organization as a whole. He wanted to save Zack, because Zack was also loyal to Shinra, a part of the organization, and he didn't agree with the orders to betray and kill him. That Zack was a friend who had saved his life before probably didn't hurt either. Again, it makes plenty of sense when you look at the big picture rather than trying to rigidly cling to what was explicitly stated in the original game.

Also, FF7 is not from Clouds perspective, i dont know how you could think that. It's a story told from multiple peoples perspective, you can tell this by viewing many many scenes in which the story unfolds without Cloud even present, Everything was tied off in FF7 the game, the only uncertainty we were left with at the end of the game was, what happened after the ending.

Alright, I'll be more specific this time. Tales of Cloud's past, told By Cloud, from memory, are form the perspective of Cloud's memories. Everything you're arguing from, was only shown as Cloud's memories, you have no supporting evidence from outside of his perspective. As for your last sentence here, again I am forced to point out the difference between reality and your opinion. There is plenty about the VII universe we didn't know after VII, just not anything you personally were interested in. There are many people who would disagree.

Also check out the link, Final Fantasy VII: Hojo & the Jenova Reunion Theory quite a fetching read, guy gives a detailed breakdown, he even indicates evidence that Zack didnt even under go the same treatment as Cloud, or if he did, he was immune. Obviously as he shows no reaction to the mako and jenova cells, and why would hojo bother experimenting on Zack? clearly far inferior to Sephiroth, id pick the one that overpowered and killed Sephiroth to replace Sephiroth eh?

There's a very obvious reason why cloud reacted and Zack did not. Zack had already been living with mako and Jenova cells in his body, since his body had already integrated them, he would have built the immunity to them up over time. A key difference between Soldier, and Hojo's experiments, is the level of mako exposure. Soldier are showered in mako. Hojo's experiments were completely submerged in it for extended periods, like say, 5 years. Remember the monsters in the reactor? They had been completely submerged in mako. Sephiroth was given mako and Jenova cells in a fetal stage, when a smaller dosage would've had a bigger impact. The commonality here is that their first exposure was a very large one. Zack's initial exposure was not. And the experiments DID in fact have an effect on Zack. The mako poisoning weakened him in the short term the same way it did Cloud. Not as MUCH as they did Cloud, again, because Zack had already been living with mako energy and Jenova cells in his body, giving him a resistance to them, also Zack was physically stronger already. He didn't experience any of the positive effects of the experiments, because his body was already 'complete' in terms of what Jenova cells and mako were going to do for it.

Also Cloud is thee only person to break the hold Jenova had, and then defeat both of them physically.. numerous times.. and Zack couldnt do it, once..

Zack never even fought Jenova. Or experienced any kind of Jenova mind ****. And Cloud never fought Sephiroth OR Jenova alone. Cloud didn't even breakf ree of Jenova by himself, he had Tifa helping him reassemble the mess his psyche had become. Your basis for comparison is invalid. You're comparing the achievements of a team, and people working together to the achievements of one man, carrying the weight of others.

FF7 was the first game, obviously, for crisis core to make sense its events should be exactly leading into FF7, not altering it to make its story more palatable.

Again, it DID lead into it. It did not alter anything that was beyond explanation. The extended canon fits in with the original game just fine. I've lost count of how many times I've had to say this, but I'll go ahead and say it again. Your refusal to accept and inability to understand something does not make it wrong.

And i dont know about you, but i defeated all end game bosses with just Cloud (Emerald, Ruby, Sephiroth, Jenova) and thats with a battle system designed for a party of 3, crisis core was designed for a party of 1 and a more active battle system, so yeah..

Was gonna try completing the whole game itself with just Cloud back in the day, but at that point i had played the game to death and got everybody with all the best materia possible, even went so far as to max stats by morphing mobs on sunken plane and in gongaga. And have collected every possible item in game. So i really didnt feel like donating more crazy time time to that possible yet long winded feat. I might do it in the future if they release it on a handheld.

And story wise, Cloud was never alone. Game mechanics and player choice do not constitute canonical truth. As far as the story went, Cloud fought alongside with friends. CC was designed for a party of 1 because the story set Zack up as a party of 1. In story terms, Zack always fought alone, and Cloud always fought in a group. Also, you can get VII on PSP through the PS store. I play it in college all the time XD

Anyway this is redundant, its pointless, as you said i refuse to accept Crisis core, simply as its telling an altered story. Much like i dont accept terminator 3 and 4 for a comparison.

You're entitled to your limited, viewpoint. That doesn't make it objective truth. Worship Cloud all you like, in the extended canon, he isn't that wonderful. You're entitled to pretend it never existed, but that doesn't change the reality of it.

And how are you considering one of the crisis core villans a god? they are just failed jenova clones right?

The God I referred to wasn't a Jenova experiment, it was Minerva, a literal God. An optional boss you can fight in the final optional mission. But just for the record, Genesis and Angeal weren't failed clones, they were Jenova experiments like Sephiroth by a scientist who competed with Hojo to create the perfect Soldier. His procedure was different, and gave Angeal and Genesis more of Jenova's actual abilities, but were unstable, and caused their bodies to degrade. They weren't as strong as Sephiroth, arguably the most successful Jenova experiment (I say arguably, because of the three, Sephiroth actually inherited the fewest of Jenova's traits, even though he did end up with greater physical strength), but they were far more than failed clones. Genesis only adapted to half of the ability the scientist was interested in, the ability to pass his genetic material into others, turning them into Genesis clones. Angeal on the other hand was considered to be a perfect implementation of this trait, not only able to spread his DNA into others, but able to receive the DNA of others himself, leading to his ability to absorb monsters and take on their traits as he did for his fight with Zack. They were both however considered incomplete, Genesis discovered that to become complete, and stop the degradation process, he'd need to absorb Sephiroth's DNA, taking from him the more complete compatibility with Jenova's DNA. He never achieved this, so neither Angeal nor Genesis were ever really complete.

And lets try be more civil, myself included, were both clearly passionate about both stories and i have tremendous respect for you and don't wish to burn any bridges..

No worries, I come off as a douche sometimes, but rarely is it my intention.

[nix]

I guess i should just shut the fuck up and play Crisis core, its too hard debating otherwise, ugh, promised myself id never do a FF7 spin off.. Your last post made it sound alot less stupid though, its only a short game too, shouldnt take me longer than an day or two

Wonder if its even in stores on my island..

And another thing i forgot to mention, always thought of it when going over it outside the house, whenever Cloud is unconscious/asleep, the screen goes to black, which would lead me to believe everything we saw at the zack death is everything that happened, i know it was done without CC in mind, but i feel they could have positioned them alot better or even had the big ass battle a bit before he lay Cloud down in front of midgar. Like have the tires of the truck they were in get shot out and have them spin off road and crash, Zack jumps out leaving cloud in the back of the truck and then goes beating the shit out of them, then have Zack go back to help him out and lay him down in front of midgar and then get cheap shotted. I know its only a minor change, but the devil is in the detail. And that would stop assholes like me picking it apart

Anyway, its been 10 years strong since ive played FF7, its all a bit hazey, perhaps ill dust off the old ps1 copy and play it on my ps3, although i kinda wanna hold off for the remake, i know its coming, just wish they would hurry up. Is the psn version on the psp a good conversion?

[Heartless Angel]

Yeah, it's exactly the same, same graphics same scenes and everything. You can play it on the PS3 as well, the store lets you put it on either system. You 'change discs" through a menu.

It's also canonically possible that the 1000 solider battle really just went that quickly. Or, fairly quickly anyways, just the time spent flashing back would probably take longer than that scene but we can assume that the flashbacks didn't happen in real time or something. That last fight goes on until the soliders can bring you down pretty much. Just for the lulz at one point I went into that battle and just started spamming drain jump, they couldn't kill me. I finally gave up and let them finish me after like an hour of annihilating soliders. But realistically, you'd think a thousand dudes laying machine gun fire on a guy weakened by mako poisoning while choppers blasted the shit out of him with rockets would bring him down fairly quickly, no matter how strong he was. Cloud or Sephiroth themselves wouldn't have lasted long in the same scenario. The main reason for the change to the battle was so that the guy who brought down two Jenova experiments losing to 3 normal infantry wouldn't leave such a bad taste in the player's mouth, but honestly it was unnecessary. Zack was weakened by mako poisoning, and had just finished fighting his final battle with Genesis not too long ago. Honestly, they might have intentionally had Zack go off screen at that time, leaving themselves some freedom to decide what happened there at a later date, with a possible prequel in mind.

[Unknown Entity]

I'm going to completely disregard every post I've ever made on this subject on this forum right now. You should disregard those posts of mine too.

First and foremost, Aeris is not a skank or slut or whatever. She doesn't lead Cloud on all and I think Cloud and Aeris is a terrible idea for a couple, just as I think Could and Tifa are. Cloud is confused and doesn't know what he wants, and he spends most of FFVII being in a world where he doesn't even know who he is. Whilst there's a relationship between Cloud and Aeris, I think many confuse that type of relationship with what they see up until Cloud finds himself. I certainly did.

In theory, Cloud is Zack because he believes he is what Zack was without really knowing about his multiple personality. Cloud was ****ed up when Zack broke them both out of those test tubes, and it is a long journey from the Shinra Mansion to Midgar... I believe it's implied that Cloud took on Zack's personality in that time through the stories Zack told him when he was a vegetable. The amount of trauma Cloud must have gone through up until then caused him to forget himself and become that person who'd told him all those stories. When Zack dies, Cloud forgets that too, and makes his way into Midgar like nothing happened.

With Cloud and Aeris, you see him chasing after someone who's showing an interest in him because he's just like her ex-boyfriend, Zack. When Cloud and Aeris sit on that slide and talk briefly, Cloud asks her about that person he reminds her off without realising it was that guy who just saved his ass, and of whom he's taken his own personality from. So you could say Aeris is speaking with "Zack" in that scene, only it's through Cloud. Also, Zack might've discussed Aeris with Cloud. Why wouldn't he? He was going back to Midgar, and must have known he'd run into her. I'd have spoken about that great gal I had at home. Hence her interest in him. Hence his interest in her.

As for Tifa and Cloud... that's a story on its own. I think Tifa knew there wasn't something quite right with Cloud when he returned to Midgar, and she was interested in finding out what happened to her childhood friend. I think she has romantic feelings towards him, but I think she's constantly held back from saying anything because of his interest in Aeris. Cloud is blind to that because he's not really "Cloud" until after Mideel gets wrecked. After that, things with Tifa come a little more apparent to him, but he's still caught up on Aeris' death. Question: what about that last night, under the airship which Cloud spends with Tifa? I'm sure that was as intimate as implied.

Cloud and Tifa may or may not have a relationship together later on in Advent Children as it's not really implied. Sure, there's a picture of them, they live together... but he's still out there looking for Aeris. And I think he was ultimately looking for forgiveness and to say he was sorry without realising that he already was forgiven and had even unintentionally threw in a kindness for Zack and Aeris. Tifa deserves better, but doesn't realise it. I think there needs to be a story that can clear up questions about their relationship, quite frankly. Another game or movie...?

Bottomline: Zack and Aeris. Cloud reunited them, and considering he believes it was his fault they both died, I think it can be viewed as a kindness. What if Cloud was only ever supposed to be a link that could reunite them both? Both Zack and Aeris seem to have connections with the world of the living in death, like when Aeris brings Cloud back from the Lifestream in Advent Children (that's how I interpreted it anyway).

Whilst FFVII wasn't made with Crisis Core in mind, I think Crisis Core was made to clear up questions the fanbase may of had about Aeris and Zack's relationship before FFVII events.