Xenogears: A study in awesomeness.

[FamousMortimer]

Besides Final Fantasy VI and 1000 Arms, Xenogears was always one of my favorite games and I dare say, one of the most complex games of all time. Character and story development were second to none! In my opinion, they did more in that single game to develop Fei Fong Wong than they have in god knows how many games and movies to devolop Cloud Stryfe. Equally complex characters, but Fei was beautifully written and explored in less episodes. It wasn't limited to Fei, for every character got their time under the microscope, even side characters like Hammer were revealed to be layered and believable human beings, with dreams, aspirations, and demons.
Alot of people hated the bitmap sprites on 3D backgrounds, but that was always one of the charming aspects of the game to me. In fact, the style of the entire game was, in my opinion, ground breaking. Not to mention the Anime style cutscenes were abundant and beautiful. All in all, Xenogears has always scored ten out of ten with me, but I would like to hear your opinion, even if it differs from mine. Sure, to me it's a masterpiece, but to another it might be a turd. No matter what your opinion is, please be specific as to why. Thank you, and I look forward to any responses this thread might recieve.

FM

[Musashiden]

You, my friend, are officially awesome. Xenogears is without a doubt my absolute favorite game of all time. At that point, even Final Fantasy hadn't dared to tread on that deep a story. If you've ready Perfect Works, you know just how deep and stunningly convoluted the story is (in this sense, convoluted is a great thing). Elements of the evils of religion, Freudian & Jungian psychology, reincarnation... still to this day you don't see many games that really require you to have a basic understanding of these things in order to fully grasp the story. This is definitely an intellectual's game.

Graphically, yeah, the sprites are a bit choppy, but I'll be damned if the animation isn't some of the smoothest and most detailed any PS1 game ever had. On the other hand, with the Gears, the animation was a little choppy, but those gears, and pretty much anything in the game rendered in 3D, looked goddamn amazing.

[loaf]

I used to play the 2 player stuff all day after school back in the day. Game got quite addicting.

[Meier Link]

As for me Gears was and still is one of the best games of all times. I found it to be an all around great package and could actually bypass the fact that it used 2-d sprites in a 3-d inviroment. I actually loved that aspect of it because it made it more unique in comparison to some of the other titles released around the same time.

I hated the fact this game was over shadowed by FFVII. And I also despize the fact that SE lost the rights to publish these titles; Xenosaga, while still being good, blew in comparison to Gears.

I loved the fighting system that was incorperated and it almost seems like SE is trying to revert to it in FFXIII. They are very simular in nature if you break it down to Gears simplistic concept and fighting system.

And what would this gmae of been with out the story, amazing. A game that actually made you think to fully grasp the over all concept. Who would of thunk it was a good idea?

[Andromeda]

Xenogears is one the few games that honestly deserves to be remade, I'm looking at the second disc. >.> I will agree that it was an amazing game in storytelling and the combat was definitely enjoyable. I actually played Xenosaga first because Xenogears was difficult to find at the time and as I've said to many I'm glad I played Xenosaga first. Because if I had played Xenogears first I would be so disappointed by Xenosaga. I was able to enjoy Xenosaga, but after Xenogears I could clearly see the difference between the two.

It is shame that the Perfect Works was never realized. I managed to read a translated copy on the internet a few years back and that is definitely something to read. It is such a complicated story that they were weaving. They really broke the mold after that game, all of Square's storytelling went into that game or something.

It is definitely one of the most mature games I've played as well. And I mean in that in a couple ways. The subject matter especially, but for a teen rated game they got away with quite a lot of things. You really felt like the characters were adults and not just some whiny teens you're always seeing in RPGs. I don't think there was a single character that didn't have a complicated history or connected somehow to someone else.

[FamousMortimer]

Musashi, you highlighted a great aspect of the game! As complex as the themes and situations on the forefront of the story were, it was the subtle references to each character's mental state and their relevence to modern psychology that were the most intriguing. It was almost as if each character was an individual study in certain psychological disorders or states of being. Reading between the lines is an imperitive skill when playing through a game like Xenogears.

Andromeda, it is probably very fortunate for you that you played Xenosaga first, because as you said, you would have been very disappointed with it had you began with Xenogears. It kind of makes sense, because Xenosaga is a VERY loose prequel to the events of Xenogears. The developers have said that it was meant as an unreleated story, taking place in the same Universe, and should not be veiwed as a prequel, but with the Anima Relics and the appearence of who I am pretty sure is Elly, it's hard to take their word at face value. I have only played the first installment, and did not even beat it before putting it down, but I could have swore that Elly kept appearing to Shion in dreams. If I am wrong, then I would love for someone to explain to me who that is.

When you beat Xenogears, it tells you that it was Episode 5, so alot of people were under the impression that Xenosaga was going to be Episodes 1-4. However it was always my impression that all five episodes were included in Xenogears. Here is my theory:

Episode 1: Human exodus, the discovery of Zohar, and the creation of the Anima Relics
Episode 2: The Crash of the Eldridge, The first meeting of The Contact and the Wave Existence, The birth of Miang, Elly, Cain, and the Gazel Ministry, and the murder of the Contact (Fei) and Elly at the hands of Cain and the Ministry.
Episode 3: An era culturally and technologically similar to our time, war-torn and on the verge of a scientific breakthrough called Nanotechnology (The Birth of Emeralda by The Contact because Elly couldn't have children). Miang has the ear of a world leader.
Episode 4: The war with Solaris, the birth of the nation of Nisan, the rise of the Holy Mother (Elly), The love triangle (Elly, Krelian, and Lacan), and the Diablos conflict.
Epsode 5: The events of the main characters of Xenogears as we know it.

Thoughts?

[Musashiden]

That's pretty much exactly what it is, according to Perfect Works.

As for Xenosaga, what I see it as is more or less a spiritual successor, or even a re-imagining of what Tetsuya Takahashi had in mind for Episode I of the Xenogears series. Many many things fall neatly into place from both stories, such as the Link Experiment on Ariadne, Michtam being wiped out, the immigrant fleet, etc.

It's a shame both series died out well before their time, but both were also created in a time when games weren't really looked upon as a means for great deep storytelling. If both games were made now with current technology and public mindframe, I have a feeling they would have fared better. Not to mention we would more than likely have a more fleshed out second half of Xenogears. Perhaps if Sony and Square deem it a good idea to release Xenogears to the PSN we'll see a remake somewhere down the road?

[FamousMortimer]

Apparently, Japan got a much better Disc Two than we in the US did. It was more like disc one, in that the story devoloped its self, rather than those dumb scenes with Fei and Elly sitting in a chair narrating, and sort of skipping over the details. I would have loved the details and I would have loved a 120 hr minimum playtime, which is closer to where the Japanese version clocks in.

[Andromeda]

I've played all three episodes of Xenosaga and I've always considered Xenosaga to be Episode 1 of the Perfect Works, since as Malahk said it fits in perfectly with what was outlined. They have called the first three episodes the Shion Arc before in passing I remember. And it is shame that it got cut short since Xenosaga was supposed to be six episodes long.

But for anyone that's played and enjoyed Xenogears, episode 3 of Xenosaga is really worth checking out if only for how many nods the game makes to its predecessor. If you thought Nephilim looked like Elly in episode 1 wait until you see her as an adult in episode 3, she's pretty much is Elly. Oh and Fei shows up in child form as Abel, which was a really great moment for me since I had played Xenogears by the time Episode 3 came around.

Plus there is the fact that the more and more you look at Jin Uzuki, Shion's brother the more and more he reminds you have Citan. Even his ES looks a lot like Citan's Gear from Xenogears. And Shion/KOS-MOS's ES is not too far off from looking like Xenogears itself.

As we have both said Xenosaga is certainly not where near as good as Xenogears, but I'd say you should give them another shot. Episode 1 was quite good, Episode 2 was hampered by too many changes mainly character, combat and voices, and Episode 3 is a strong finish that I dare say is better than Episode 1 and at least for me reminded the series after Episode 2's nightmare. It had a combat system where you were forced to use weak points of the monsters in other to do any real damage, which is not a good way of doing things. Plus it was a really short game I beat it in two sittings, but Xenosaga 3 managed to be like a 40-50 hour game. I suspect that is due to cramming about four episodes worth of storytelling into a single game.

But finish off Xenosaga 1, blaze through Xenosaga 2 (its a complex story and its necessary) and then enjoy Xenosaga 3. Xenosaga 3 really is a great nod to Xenogears in so many ways. Plus you finally get a lot of the answers to what's been going on in the game. Nearly everything ends up making some amount of sense so long as you think through it all.

I can more or less explain what Nephilim (Elly) is in Xenosaga. If you want me to. It actually lies in line with some things from Xenogears.

[FamousMortimer]

Hmmm, I'm tempted to just ask you the run down of the entire plot of the three, but you also have intrigued me enough to want to play them...I can't decide. I only own Der Wille Zer Macht, by now, the other two must be hard to find, right? I haven't been game shopping since the economy went shit. If you don't think explaining Nephilim will ruin the story, then yes, I would like you to explain.

[Andromeda]

I don't know they shouldn't be too hard to find online? I don't remember seeing them that often in Gamestops, but that's probably because people that own the games don't want to give them up. I certainly don't.

As for Nephilim, as I understand it. She was the first person to actually touch the original Zohar back on Earth in the 21st century. When she came in contact it absorbed her or something like to cause her to become linked with the Zohar. So her existence is now tied directly with Zohar. Which I think doesn't Abel from Xenogears actually see a girl when he is looking at the Zohar on the ship? Meaning Nephilim or Elly in this case.

Shion's connection with this whole thing isn't in anyway form explained until Episode 3, but let's just say that re-incarnation is definitely involved. However, that shouldn't surprise you since well like all of the main characters in Xenogears are re-incarnations of the original incident upon the landing on the planet after Deus goes wild.

At one point I thought that Proto Mercaba was like an early test of Deus or something. There are so many like huge weapons in the Xenosaga series that I saw at one point or another that any of them could be Deus' prototype, though my ending suspicions is that Zarathustra is actually Deus or at least related in some way to Deus.

[Musashiden]

I actually recently re-bought Episode II for about 12 bucks at Gamestop, and I'd imagine that the other two entries are as easy to find.

As for Abel, according to Perfect Works, he was searching for his mother after Deus awoke on board the Eldridge. While searching, he came across the Zohar. The Wave Existence (U-DO in Xenosaga) saw this, and created Elehayym and Miang (initially fused together) out of his will for a mother. Judging by how Xenosaga III plays out, this (at least to me) makes it seem like Xenosaga was meant to reimagine the Xenogears story as a whole rather than merely bridge the gap.

[FamousMortimer]

That is how I have come to understand Abel and the Zohar. Thanks, Musashi.

Favorite characters, gears, story arcs? Anyone?

I would have to say that my favorite Character is Citan, because he is a secret badass and conceals a strange past. Plus, that sword you get just before storming Solaris is my favorite character weapon!

My favorite Gear is Weltall II. System Id is amazing! Plus it just looks cooler than Weltall and even Xenogears to me.

My favorite story arc would have to be Bart's quest to retake Aveh, and claim his crown.

[Zargabaath]

The Xenosaga was a re-imaging of the Xenogears story - specifically Xenogears Episode I. However the creators could not do what they had planned to originally because they left Square and Square had the rights so they created a new telling of Xenogears Episode I with Xenosaga.

Xenogears Ep. I - the events prior to Deus being placed onboard the Eldridge.

Xenogears Ep. II - Abel's story

Xenogears Ep. III - Kim's story

Xenogears Ep. IV - Lacan's story

Xenogears Ep. V - what we got

Xenogears Ep. VI - events after Ep. V

Too bad we will mostly likely never see the full tale of this amazing universe. SE should try to get the main brains of the Gears universe back on board to complete this epic.

[FamousMortimer]

I've heard tell of some bad blood between the developers of Xenogears, but that could easily be a rumor.

[Musashiden]

The majority of the folks involved with Xenogears work for Monolith Soft which is, sadly, now a subsidiary of Nintendo. If there is going to be a new Xenogears/saga game, chances are Testuya Takahashi and Soraya Saga aren't going to have anything at all to do with it. Takahashi is pissed at Square for rushing Gears, and Saga is pissed at Namco for basically giving her the proverbial finger halfway through Episode II's development.

[FamousMortimer]

Thats a shame! You never scorn your talent. So in short, I guess youre saying we will never see any kind of sequel, prequel, or remake in the Xenoverse because of deadlines and executive foolishness? I want to cry...

At least we have fan fiction...Sigh...

[Zargabaath]

It was never explicitly stated that Takahashi was rushed or that they lost funding - the latter is a myth. In-depth fans say that disc 2 was consciously chosen to be that way - that is just a theory mind you.

[FamousMortimer]

Rumors aside, didn't disc two seem....rushed? It didn't flow with the grace that Disc one did, nor was it as interesting. It was clumsy and didn't allow for further character development. This is all opinion of course, but wouldn't you agree?

[Musashiden]

I definitely felt disc two was rushed. Granted, they do offer you a great deal of character development on the first disc so that by the time you start doing dungeons on the second disc you're plenty buffed, but the story paces at a rate that feels very compressed. Instead of showing you what happens, Fei & Elly tell it to you from a chair, which is a major sign of rushage to me.

[Zargabaath]

However, disc 2 was when most of the major story points were revealed; disc 2 was all about the story.

[Musashiden]

It was, but my gripe with it is that the way it's presented feels very incomplete. Too little of it is actually shown to you. I mean, it seems kind of awkward that it goes from Fei describing something in a chair to Bart fighting a giant Koosh ball in what appears to be the result of Yggdrasil and Brigandier having a baby.

[FamousMortimer]

Musashi has just remided me of the best example for my feelings toward disc two. I mean, really...That's the build up for the Yggdrasil IV? You're just thrown into the fight, with little background. What little they give you is a few still shots of game play from a dungeon, which leads me to believe that there WAS a dungeon to negotiate before getting the Ygg4 in the Japanese release. . I felt kind of cheated. I would have been happy to fight and build up to what should have been a high point of the game. They did the same thing prior to the Giant Wels fight where Elly asks Citan to borrow his sword to feed it as it lay dying. I think we were shortchanged atl east two dungeons.