It's just not about the game anymore

[anthonyaudi]

Hello fellow FFers. Ok so this is my first post here so please no haterism because you will say "a one time poster comes in for negativity" because it is really not.

I was reading the thread FF13 love it or hate it.

Final Fantasy 13 as a visual game, unmatched by any game out there in my opinion it is not far fetched to say something along the lines of it's graphically the best game PS3 has or Xbox for that matter.

We all know that graphically this game could be much better had it been made to one platform. If it was made only on the PS3 they would have been able to make the game better simply because the PS3 is stronger than the Xbox. But that is not the case here.

Since FF7 I think that the series took a serious turn for the worse. The games have been getting worse and worse (with I think the exception of FF10).

My reasoning: The first one is going out on a limb but since Enix came into the picture I strongly believe that the series has strayed heavily from its roots. Now maybe it is because they felt that the game had to take a new turn or evolve differently but no one can deny that if we look at FF6 or FF7 the games are just not the same anymore. People would actually get into the story and spend hours on hours with the side quests. (Remember trying to get all the enemy skills in FF6 or FF7 or power leveling for hours on end against monsters with ridiculous heart power)

The graphics no doubt have evolved but has Square really just made it a point to make games that push the limits of the hardware. To show off what their artists can do? To say "This game has to be a benchmark for graphics" (FF12 on the Ps2 or FF7 on Ps1)

What happened to the story, do you remember the earlier games where the stories were so immense and complex that you had to literally talk to every person in a town to understand what was going on. Or if you missed talking to one person your story couldn't continue. Remember getting so caught up in a random side quest that you forget your mission and the person you spoke to who gave you the clue now says something different. What happened to that part of the game?

FF13 is a very linear game, your paths are pretty much chosen for you for the majority of that game. Now I haven't finished but I know that game is fairly linear until much later in the game.

I won't say that developing all the roles and power leveling later won't be fun because it probably will be. Everyone who plays the game will most likely enjoy that part but I don't think anyone can truly say "This one is THE BEST" Again it is a matter of taste and opinion but realistically this game just IS NOT what people make it out to be.


Final Fantasy is a trademark series, kind of like Resident Evil (which has strayed so far from its roots that even Capcom has said that in order to make a Resident Evil 6 they have to rethink the way the game is made, but that is besides the point I'm just making a reference)

Who of you started FF13 and waited for the trademark harp opening, the song that EVERYONE knows Final Fantasy for. As soon as I popped in the game and I heard a different theme song I said to myself, "Ok well this is strange" Then I started to play and I had my first battle (The battle system is mediocre at best. Turn based is what Final Fantasy was built on keep it at what works best for the game. I want to be able to control all 3 character not just one.) beat my first enemy and what am I listening to, a very very new winning song. I'm playing Final Fantasy I want to hear the signature victory theme. Saying to myself, "Maybe it's just the opening part of the game and later on I will hear it." 5 chapters later, still the same song. What is going on.

Characters, is it me or do ALL the characters look the same, do they not all have more or less the same facial structure? Vanille. Hope, Lightning?? Fine they look different but does anyone other than myself think that since Final Fantasy 8 all the characters are VERY similar looking?

I can go on and on about the game and how it has drifted so far from what a traditional Final Fantasy should be but the thread has gone on way too long.

Basically what I'm saying is, Final Fantasy is not about Final Fantasy anymore anyone who has been playing them since FF1 and gone through them all will not disagree with me. I've seen it from the start and have seen the series grow but it has come to a point where the reality of this series is


It is just not about the game anymore.

Let's stop pretending that the world of video games is about who can push the best graphics out of a system and concentrate on giving the gamers a good story, a great replay value, and an ever lasting experience.


Don't forget FF13 was announced in 2006, that was 4 years ago, they had plenty of time to think over what should and could come out of this game and they just created another "good RGP" but not another "signature Final Fantasy"


(Classic Sid, first 5 chapters had 1 sentence, I'm not holding my breath to hear from him again)



FF13 good or bad? Good game but NOT A REAL FINAL FANTASY.

[Fate]

I sort of agree with the point about it kind of straying from the Final Fantasy series in the overall game, but I don't really mind, and I don't see why it's unnecessary. I mean, the technology that is around now is far superior to the technology that was around when Final Fantasy first existed. So why throw that aside instead of applying it into the latest of the series to produce a spectacular and memorable game? Some of the new features are absolutely amazing, and I think it's a waste to just dump all that and go with the basics. If that's the case, you're not going to get anything that new, just something that's the same with different characters, a different plot, different options, but the same features.

And I don't see how the characters are the same, exactly. =3 Although, I know they had to use Vaan, Ashe, or some other character's designs to make random people in the game.

And in my opinion, I don't think I'd want to control all three characters in this game. It's just...too fast. >.> I mean, one character I can handle, but non-stop commands between three different characters would have be confused with who I'm even controlling, or what I'm commanding them to do. But to me, I really like this new battle system. It's challenging, sort of new, and extremely fun.

Also, I don't know if it's just me, but I thought the story was amazing. As you get farther in the game, it progressively got more intense, captivating, et cetera. Though, I haven't seen the ending yet, since I haven't beaten the game yet, but so far, it's not letting me down.

[Che]

Go play Final Fantasy 1-7 again then. Of course it's different.

[Belugn]

I have to agree, of course it's different. Especially since most of the original FF staff is long gone from Square Enix, as far as I'm concerned. Nobuo Uematsu is no longer a member of that team, and is...working for Mist studios, I think. (Correct me if I'm wrong, or my information is outdated.)

I think however that the story itself is very Final Fantasy, and I quite enjoy the characters as well (even if it feels like there's a lack of more fleshed out NPCs.) And I've always been playing Final Fantasy for it's stories and characters. To me this game would have worked out so much better with the more traditional battle system, just good old reliable turnbased. I immensly miss the world maps with all the different places to go and explore, endless sidequests and tons of people to talk with. But I don't think a game series can survive on never trying to develope, not today, that would just be laughed on. But it's not like I've liked every single earlier FF as well, VIII belongs to one of my most detested games ever. It doesn't go all the way home every time.

But yes I too think this game lacks a lot of the element that - to me - is what makes a Final Fantasy.

[vicks and wedge]

final fantasy as i know and love it is dead!! sorry bout my luck however ppl like this new ff game and whatever...the old ones still exhist i really can keep playing them over and over again..oh well voltrons not on anymore either ...:

[Fate]

Really, though, I don't see what's so bad about it being different and all. I say change was inevitable. If you have the same thing for years and years, your series won't last a long time, because after some time, some thing will have been a bit 'outdated.' You have to adapt to the change in technology to compete with other games out there.

So yeah, it's how it is. And I highly doubt that if another Final Fantasy game of the main series comes out for a console, the people who supposedly hated Final Fantasy XIII will not buy it (and then complain about that one, too).

[Rydia Lover]

hmm lets see, ive played all of them since FF1 and i have to say i disagree, sure its different but that doesnt mean it is no longer about being final fantasy. i cant say i would like the series very much if all of the games were turn based, or atb and had the same stuff in it.

the whole series has been about progression and evolution of the gameplay and its aspects. and though many here may believe so, as far as the developers go, THE ARE NO TRUE TRADITIONS. the director even said so in an interview by game informer, though they typically do include them, take them out, would be fair game.

[tebian]

But yes I too think this game lacks a lot of the element that - to me - is what makes a Final Fantasy.

I said the same thing when I first looked at 10. I loved the artistic work that went into the old screens and back grounds. Nearly died when I seen it was all computer graphics and then it had voices...

But all this will pass and I bet what we see now comes to be a standard just like 10 did and thank fully not like 11... Well I can only hope that 14 is just quick flash, cause the MMO is a can of worms that Square should have stayed out of all together. FF11 = 800 days play time for me, take my word for it.. if you did no like FF in the last few years just do not even go to the Play Online world of bugs and fixes.

The series will survive but I can see the changes coming even internally in the company with the music. Lets just hope for the best and enjoy that we are up to number 13.

[Andromeda]

Nobuo has his own studio that is a music company or something like that called Smile Please I think it is. He is pretty much a free agent and works for anyone so long as they pay him. But hey he's doing the entire soundtrack for FFXIV, so you all should be happy.

First point, turned based argument. FF games haven't true turn based since FFIII. FFIV put in the Active Turn Battle system which FF has been pretty much using ever since and what a lot of RPGs in general use. Even FFXIII is using a version of the ATB that is now considered "Classic" Final Fantasy, considering that the original didn't use it. The only other truly turned based FF game after was FFX. What is turn based in the others is just a meter filling up, which is exactly what FFXIII does. When your meter fills you can make an attack.

FFX which you said was an exception to your claim that the games are going down since FFVII. It actually just as linear as FFXIII. The only difference is how wide the road you're walking is in the game. And when you actually look at most FF games and JRPGs or WRPGs in general, they are all very linear. You have one entrance and one exit and some forks in the road that are always dead ends with the chance of treasure. It is a common theme in most RPGs if there is a fork one will lead to a dead end and high chances are it is a treasure waiting the other is the way out. FFXIII does this just the same, its paths just happened by more narrow than most.

As for not knowing the full story or world without spending time going looking for it. FFXIII has the Datalog which is constantly being updating. And you will not know everything about the world if you play the game without reading it. If you read everything in the Datalog you will gain a vast new understanding of the world, story and characters than the dialogue in cutscenes alone would have told you. So it is the same.

As for the opening them, back to FFX which you say is better than recent games. FFX is without the Crystal Theme that the NES and SNES versions of FF were known for doing. It more or less stopped at FFVII, though FFXII brought it back. Listening to the splash movie it is in there. Though FFVIII and FFIX both put the Crystal Theme in to the ending credits near the end. FFX actually did not have the Crystal Theme any where in the game, a point I noted when I first played it. Since I had only played FFVII-FFIX at that point and thought that the Crystal Theme was something that was always at the end of the credits and something that FF Theme song. But theme songs change and it didn't stop me from enjoying and loving FFX for what it was.

There are a heavy amount of common FF staples in the game. You have all of the classic monsters, but a lot of them have been re-envisioned which I thought was pretty cool. You can find Bombs, Imps, Goblins, Cactaur, Tonberry, Ochu, Behemoth, Flans and those fish people I can never spell correctly. There are a lot of the summons and summon names in the game Titan, Bismark, Carbuncle and Atomos just to name a few. You have the classic Chocobo and another type, two Chocobo Themes, which are standard FF stuff. On top of that there are even references to past games. I mean Cid's Airship is called The Lindblum (FFIX) and there is even the ProudClod (FFVII). There are probably even more references that I'm not remember and looked too hard for. On top of that you have all the standard magic and spells that have come standard FF fair at this point. I think the game is just as much a "Final Fantasy" game as any other is.

I just think that people are put off by change, which the FF series is actually known for most of all. And FFXIII just happened to change a lot more than what people are used to doing. It is far better than what Dragon Quest series does, Enix's flagship game that never changes it's formula since the first game and just swaps out characters and story in each back. I'd prefer an evolving series over a stagnant one.

Each FF game is different and its only constancy is that you can expect to see Chocobos, Airships, Summons, common monsters, familiarly named spells and a Cid with his own airship. That is FF.

[tebian]

Nobuo has his own studio that is a music company or something like that called Smile Please I think it is. He is pretty much a free agent and works for anyone so long as they pay him. But hey he's doing the entire soundtrack for FFXIV, so you all should be happy.

Nobou Uematsu is a free agent but I think he would be pretty offended by your statement that he goes with anyone "so long as they pays him". He spends a lot of time with Distant Worlds tour and other engagements like that for the fans. He does not do it just for the "pay". There is many artist who make up Squares group and most are very dedicated to the worlds that have defined.

[loaf]

So what I got out of the original post that you got mad that the original harp song wasn't being played, and you got mad that the victory music wasn't the same. The rest of your post was just you telling us something.

Only 1 true Final Fantasy and that is I, because all the others have actual characters with names. OP, it's a true Final Fantasy because it's called Final Fantasy. Their combat is turn based, it's just in more real time and you control 1 person. Go play VII again.

[Rydia Lover]

So what I got out of the original post that you got mad that the original harp song wasn't being played, and you got mad that the victory music wasn't the same. The rest of your post was just you telling us something.

Only 1 true Final Fantasy and that is I, because all the others have actual characters with names. OP, it's a true Final Fantasy because it's called Final Fantasy. Their combat is turn based, it's just in more real time and you control 1 person. Go play VII again.

i have to agree, it seems that your scolding the newer games for being so different, yet the last great FF as you so put it VII is just as different from FFI as FF XIII is to it

[anthonyaudi]

Perhaps I should say it differently.
I am not saying AT ALL that the game is bad or the game sucks because as I said I didn't play it all and I am a die hard FF fan so I know I'm going to like the game. I have no doubt in my mind I will like the game.

However, the feel of the game is not Final Fantasy. I have a hard time believing that if you played 1-12 (with the exception of 11 because it was an MMO) you can say that the game didn't stray from its roots.

I agree 100% when you say change is inevitable because let's face it video games today are about seeing who can come up with a revolutionary game that is different and fun. That is what sells, but the game itself is far too different from a traditional RPG.

The fact of the matter is playing a game that you can only control 1 character and have no control over the other 2 (minus the fact that you can choose their role) is not what players of the series know or like. I agree that it is fast paced and different but it just isn't what Final Fantasy is.

Reading the data log won't change the fact that unlike other games in the series the actual world map is not as complex as the original games. Getting lost somewhere just won't happen anymore because as you noted the paths are more narrow and you basically know where you are going. I actually did not say that FF10 was better I just said that of the never "genre" of the FF series it was the one that probably stood out a little more. It still somewhat had that old school effect (but not like 1-7).

You say that FF7 was just as different to the series as FF13 I strongly disagree. FF7 was very much like its predecessors. You still had the hidden treasures and the big world map free to travel wherever and go back to towns you visited in the beginning of the game or go to secret places on the world map like islands that you just could not get to without the airship. It had those options. The side quests were practically unlimited in the earlier games.

Agree with me or not you CANNOT say that the stories are as in depth as other games. Don't get me wrong the stories are good but they are not as thought out as earlier versions. The reason is simply because they focus too much on the visual aspect of the game to put in a good story. Sorry not a good story, an unforgettable story.

I'm just going to use FF7 as an example but your side quests were pretty much endless. How often or how long did you try to understand what a 1/12 Solider figurine was and why it was in the game only to find out like 10 years later that it was used for something in the Japanese beta versions that got cut out.

I'm not saying that the game is bad because it is not, I enjoy playing it but I think that because they are focusing too much on change for the series to bring it a leap forward they are forgetting where the game actually came from.

What brought FF series to FF13 was its ability to stand out as a benchmark for all other games because of its core aspects. The story, the battle system, the characters that we grew to love each for their own unique abilities.

I agree that because most of the original FF team is gone and taken their own separate roads that the new generation of developers have brought their own ideas to the game and change is never bad. However to change something by building on what you already know is good is one thing. To do a 180 and go in the opposite direction and throw in a reference like Proud Cloud to give your audience the impression you did not forget about who brought you to your current state is not good.

I'm not saying bring Cloud or Terra or anyone back but I am saying give your audience a reason to love the characters you create and not just say, "Ya FF13 was a good game but it was just ANOTHER Final Fantasy."


Maybe I'm old school, maybe I'm a fan boy of what a traditional RPG is but I'm pretty sure that many people who don't post here (as well as many people who do) agree with me.

Final Fantasy is not about a story of good and evil with 100 twists and turns in the story anymore, it is about showing your audience that Square Enix can make a story and throw it on an Xbox 360 or Ps3 and give it graphics that are unmatched by any other game.


I really think the BEST example I can give is the announcement of a FF7 remake on the PSN. Fine they just ported the game from the PS1 but 4 months after its announcement it is still on the top 10 games on PSN. I refuse to believe that people are still buying it because they are nostalgic, it is hard to disagree that if they remade it it is because at some point and time someone in the higher up said, "We need to listen to our fans and they demand a remake of our best FF game we need to give it to them"


I understand I keep using FF7 as a reference but I am just using it because it is over 10 years it has been made and it is probably still the most heavily debated game out there.

FF7 opening theme was the Crystal Theme by the way.

[loaf]

You still use VII has a reference which are also horrible references. You still are making no sense, you still have this OMG IT'S NOT VII attitude. So far you are just like a lot of people who complain that the new FF games aren't good or shouldn't be called Final Fantasy. Why, because YOU think it sucks? I like the idea of 1 character and having roles for others. XII did the same thing just more freely.

Once again, if you are gonna complain saying that XIII isn't like any of the others then again FF1 is the only true final fantasy.

[Rydia Lover]

Perhaps I should say it differently.
I am not saying AT ALL that the game is bad or the game sucks because as I said I didn't play it all and I am a die hard FF fan so I know I'm going to like the game. I have no doubt in my mind I will like the game.

However, the feel of the game is not Final Fantasy. I have a hard time believing that if you played 1-12 (with the exception of 11 because it was an MMO) you can say that the game didn't stray from its roots.

I agree 100% when you say change is inevitable because let's face it video games today are about seeing who can come up with a revolutionary game that is different and fun. That is what sells, but the game itself is far too different from a traditional RPG.

The fact of the matter is playing a game that you can only control 1 character and have no control over the other 2 (minus the fact that you can choose their role) is not what players of the series know or like. I agree that it is fast paced and different but it just isn't what Final Fantasy is.

Reading the data log won't change the fact that unlike other games in the series the actual world map is not as complex as the original games. Getting lost somewhere just won't happen anymore because as you noted the paths are more narrow and you basically know where you are going. I actually did not say that FF10 was better I just said that of the never "genre" of the FF series it was the one that probably stood out a little more. It still somewhat had that old school effect (but not like 1-7).

You say that FF7 was just as different to the series as FF13 I strongly disagree. FF7 was very much like its predecessors. You still had the hidden treasures and the big world map free to travel wherever and go back to towns you visited in the beginning of the game or go to secret places on the world map like islands that you just could not get to without the airship. It had those options. The side quests were practically unlimited in the earlier games.

Agree with me or not you CANNOT say that the stories are as in depth as other games. Don't get me wrong the stories are good but they are not as thought out as earlier versions. The reason is simply because they focus too much on the visual aspect of the game to put in a good story. Sorry not a good story, an unforgettable story.

I'm just going to use FF7 as an example but your side quests were pretty much endless. How often or how long did you try to understand what a 1/12 Solider figurine was and why it was in the game only to find out like 10 years later that it was used for something in the Japanese beta versions that got cut out.

I'm not saying that the game is bad because it is not, I enjoy playing it but I think that because they are focusing too much on change for the series to bring it a leap forward they are forgetting where the game actually came from.

What brought FF series to FF13 was its ability to stand out as a benchmark for all other games because of its core aspects. The story, the battle system, the characters that we grew to love each for their own unique abilities.

I agree that because most of the original FF team is gone and taken their own separate roads that the new generation of developers have brought their own ideas to the game and change is never bad. However to change something by building on what you already know is good is one thing. To do a 180 and go in the opposite direction and throw in a reference like Proud Cloud to give your audience the impression you did not forget about who brought you to your current state is not good.

I'm not saying bring Cloud or Terra or anyone back but I am saying give your audience a reason to love the characters you create and not just say, "Ya FF13 was a good game but it was just ANOTHER Final Fantasy."


Maybe I'm old school, maybe I'm a fan boy of what a traditional RPG is but I'm pretty sure that many people who don't post here (as well as many people who do) agree with me.

Final Fantasy is not about a story of good and evil with 100 twists and turns in the story anymore, it is about showing your audience that Square Enix can make a story and throw it on an Xbox 360 or Ps3 and give it graphics that are unmatched by any other game.


I really think the BEST example I can give is the announcement of a FF7 remake on the PSN. Fine they just ported the game from the PS1 but 4 months after its announcement it is still on the top 10 games on PSN. I refuse to believe that people are still buying it because they are nostalgic, it is hard to disagree that if they remade it it is because at some point and time someone in the higher up said, "We need to listen to our fans and they demand a remake of our best FF game we need to give it to them"


I understand I keep using FF7 as a reference but I am just using it because it is over 10 years it has been made and it is probably still the most heavily debated game out there.

FF7 opening theme was the Crystal Theme by the way.

who says that final fantasy was a traditional rpg? i think you are the ONLY person ive ever heard refer to the series as that.

you must have misheard my sa\tatement, FF VII is just as different as FF I as FF XIII is to FF VII

and im sorry, but isnt every FF game just another FF?

and how exactly can you coment on the story of FF XIII if you havent finished it yet?

[anthonyaudi]

Im not saying its not final fantasy 7 because I don't think it is about whether or not it looks or feels like that game. I think it has more to do with the fact that it does not feel like a real FF game.

Look at the battle system, it is so easy to beat an opponent now find a good paradigm and you basically can't lose. What happened to the days of having to control your character and choose if he heals you or not with cure or cura or curaga. Now you chose a medic and all he basically does is heal you. That's all he does.

And again like I said, I'm not complaining about the game I don't understand why you assume I'm complaining. That's not what I said as I said more than once I like the game and probably will like it a lot.

I never said the game sucks, nor would I dare say it because I don't think any FF game sucked and they made some pretty bad ones. FF8-9-X2

I don't think the game SUCKS I think that it is turning more into something that is "what can we do to make the gamers believe this one is the revolutionary one so we can sell 10 million copies?" more than "what can we give them that will make them say, this IS the reason why I chose to play this series."

I think that should be their goal when making these games and to be perfectly honest I really don't think that's what they have as a goal anymore. I think that they are straying from the roots because they are trying new ideas to catch a recipe that will beat the traditional one so they can build on that but like I said the recipe was already there and they are making the games more to be a great game for a year and not for 10.


Let's be honest how often will you say man I have to replay FF12 because it was just so good over man I want to replay FF6 because I want to see the dark and light world again.

I want to see if I can finally find that enemy skill that I could never find in the desert or get the gengi armor that I could never get.


I think the games before just had much more replay value because they were more in tune with the story.

I guess I could be wrong because I'm ignorant but I don't believe so.

Why are my references horrible. Is it not true that the port to FF7 on the PSN is still on the top 10 downloaded games. Or FF8 for that matter?



(I'm commenting on what I see for all I know this could be the best FF game that ever came out but I doubt it) When I say every FF game is just another FF game yes it is exactly that just another FF game but in the earlier games when you thought of FF games you thought of towns inns armor and magic shops running around to find undiscovered areas. (I did misread your statement sorry )

Many RPG's Squaresoft made (among other companies) had that turn based 3-4 player battle style. It just was what an RPG was.

Dragon quest,,Breath of Fire, FF to name a few.

Like I said I'm not saying the game sucks or is bad because it isn't. I'm happy to say I bought it and will play it. But I don't think that 5 years from now I'm going to say, "Ya that was the one that stood out"

That's all I'm saying and I'm pretty sure there are people who agree with me.

[Rydia Lover]

but what you dont understand is that what makes these games a final fantasy game, isnt everything your stating, they are just nice perks and mechanics in a FF game. what make the final fantasy series what it is, is the amount of progression from one title to the next.

by standerd, what makes a FF title a FF game is that it is game called FINAL FANTASY made by square. end of story.

And again, i think FF XIII has a very compelling story and is what drives me to play the game more than anything else, i love that it is much more dark than your average FF title.

and BTW ive played FF XII nearly 10 times since ive played, almost twice as much as FF VI

[anthonyaudi]

I guess it's a matter of opinion in the end of the day. The debate can go on forever where there are good points to both arguments.

I personally think that the game drifted too much from its roots and will only turn more and more into the average RPG with good graphics until the next installment comes out. You don't.

[loaf]

I have replayed FFXII more times I have replayed FFVI. XII is a huge adventure.

Every Final Fantasy drifted from it's roots since none are the same as FFI.

What does FFVII being on the Top 10 PSN have to do with anything. Lot of people don't/can't find a copy of it.

[T.G. Oskar]

but what you dont understand is that what makes these games a final fantasy game, isnt everything your stating, they are just nice perks and mechanics in a FF game. what make the final fantasy series what it is, is the amount of progression from one title to the next.

by standerd, what makes a FF title a FF game is that it is game called FINAL FANTASY made by square. end of story.

Minor nitpick; by standard, what makes any edition of Dungeons & Dragons a D&D game is that its books have the title "Dungeons & Dragons" and because they're made by Wizards of the Coast.

There's a bit of flawed logic in that. There are more aspects than simply those two. For example, Final Fantasy usually but not always has a theme on crystals, the presence of someone named Cid, Chocobos, the tightly regimented magic system (even FFXIII has A-magic, Ra-magic and Ga-magic, though only the bosses may or may not have Ja-magic), the concept of summons and the references they make (which only FFII and FFXII broke, with FFI having Bahamut albeit not as a summon), amongst other things. None of these are absolutely necessary, but their absence on a FF game would be noticeable; these are shared, common themes within most FF games.

Some people, like Anthony, consider much deeper aspects as intrinsic to Final Fantasy, such as the Job system (which not all games have but nearly all games make reference to) or the old Active Time Battle system (which newer games in the series have attempted to change). To the common person, those are the defining trends of various (if not all) Final Fantasies, and if they are absent, then the game won't have the same feel. Part is the like for those systems and how they are used to it; part is nostalgia, part is grognardise (look for that term, it describes most of the FF fanship almost to the point). In fact, when other games show those trends, they are considered "Final Fantasy-alikes", given the prominence of said traits. However, it may or may not actually define what is on a Final Fantasy game.

I'd take claiming Final Fantasy XIII as a non-Final Fantasy game with tweezers and care. Certainly, it is a massive departure from the norm; what with the apparent early-game linearity, battle system, semi-restricted character development (restricted, not limited; those are two different terms that nonetheless work as synonyms) and other aspects (Gestalt Mode instead of actual summoning, for example). Consider that the single largest departure from the theme of Final Fantasy was actually not a game, but a movie (Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within); how do you relate that movie to the core concepts of Final Fantasy may very well define how you relate Final Fantasy XIII to the accepted Final Fantasy canon.

Still, I don't consider the opposite to be wrong, either. Anyone is entitled to feel that Final Fantasy XIII is a sequel in-name only, and that it shows only some references to the core series but departs far too radically from the source. In fact, I consider that appreciating Final Fantasy XIII as a game, and not using the baggage of the Final Fantasy canon, may allow a different appreciation of the game. Perhaps, just perhaps, the game may be enjoyed by certain people if they don't visualize it as a Final Fantasy, but as a game from Squaresoft. Then, later, once you have gone through it, give it a closer look and see if it's really a Final Fantasy title or if it's a good game but not worthy of the title.

[vicks and wedge]

anthony...stop trying to prove your point...i know what you mean i even felt 10 is where it started to stray...these people on here dont want to hear it..they will argue your opinion forever..alot of people feel the same way you do..if you read gamer reviews on the game like 1 out of 5 say it dosent feel like final fantasy and all the rest call it perfect so more folks think its a perfect game but theres a good amount who wuld agree with you.

[Andromeda]

Agree with me or not you CANNOT say that the stories are as in depth as other games.

Please don't tell me what I can and cannot say or think.

And I too would gladly replay FFXII. The only reason I haven't is because I have a long list of RPGs I still haven't beaten yet. And it is funny that you say that FFIX was a low point considering how much it is a homage to the first three games in almost every way. And didn't Sakaguchi even say it was his favorite of the series?

But in the end it is all opinions, but it is also debate. You come in laying down your arguments and we'll rebuttal them. It's the way things work. So long as you don't lay down opinions as facts when they are just your opinions then you'll be fine. You started out sounding like everything you were saying was unbreakable facts and now recognizing it as opinions.

The reason I play all RPGs is more for the story than anything else in the game. Apart from like Chocobo Hot and Cold, I'll always love that mini-game. And the reason I replay them is for the story. So far with the FF games I've played I have enjoyed all of their stories. But I would say complete the game first before judging the story for FFXIII. I found the story to be very enjoyable with complex and deep characters, which were a lot more interesting than some of the previous FF games. Lightning is easily one of my favorite characters from any game and a strong female lead that isn't just some white mage or summoner weakling that needs saving.

I will probably come back to FFXIII again to play it for the story. There is a lot in there. As I explore the world of Gran Pulse I am actually thinking about the environment and what it is saying. There are a lot of little things that tell their own story in there about what sort of world it was before. Oh and it is quite easy to get lost in Gran Pulse if you aren't paying attention. The main hub map is huge and quite intimidating when you first step in. Actually seeing it made be feel like the place was actually alive with a modest form of an ecosystem. There were monster/animals running around and others fighting. There is a lot of personality to be found there.

So give things a shot and complete the game and then re-evaluate your opinion. It is still every bit FF because FF games have become more defined by the FF Mythology that has been created more than anything else. If you see a chocobo or a moogle it becomes pretty recognizably FF. I'd imagine a lot of people go in asking where Cid is and what his airship looks like. It has become the "Mythology" that they have create that defines the FF series as a whole more than anything else, because everything else is pretty much different.

To note I have beaten FFXIII.

[loaf]

Also Andro he said it's the true Final Fantasy.

I don't know, I don't know why a lot of people like to bash or just say it's not the same anymore when none of them are the same ever.

[Sean]

The closest you'll find to a "traditional" FF game is Lost Odyssey, considering it was made by Mistwalker (founded by the original FF team.) The game feels just like playing a classic Final Fantasy game, with turned based gameplay (with a twist to make it unique to that game) and such.

Anyways, you'd have to be crazy to want to just play the exact same game over and over with a different story/characters/graphics. This is why I can't get into FPSs, most feel the same to me. Every RPG (including FF) have different elements to make it unique, and they are not typically repeated in later games. (Choosing the jobs, materia, GFs, license board, sphere board, rings, etc etc etc)

Personally, the game feels VERY Final Fantasy to me, and the more I'm playing it the more I'm enjoying it.


Graphically the game looks VERY similar to Lost Odyssey (for 360) and in no way really stands out as "The best the system has to offer."

With the extremely fast loading times for the 360, I almost think that Squeenix built both versions from the ground up specific for the hardware in mind. That was the only drawback to Lost Odyssey, it took ages to load up each and every fight as well as moving into new zones. XIII is just as amazing, graphically, but it loads ridiculously fast.


Edit: I refute your statement of "PS3 is the stronger console." (sic)

http://www.hardcoreware.net/reviews/review-348-1.htm is one (old) of many articles refuting this.

[Belugn]

@Andromeda: Ah, then I know. He did do the soundtrack for Lost Oddyssey though, right?
--
But anyhow.
I guess in general it comes down to wether you like the new battle system or not, and for the latter; if you're ready to put up with it, or not. It's the FFXII discussion all over again; never seen as much rage when it comes to a FF game as for FFXII. I loved XII. So much.

When it comes to the story in XIII, I think it's very FF and worth playing for.

They still DO have chocobos and other traditional enemies such as flans. Am I the only one who for some reason feels a strong love towards the new flans? I don't know, I just find them hilarious and utterly amusing.
I've heard moogles are gonna make a cameo appearance or something as well, looking very much forward to that. When it comes to the reuse of the traditional soundtracks, yeah, there ain't a lot of that. The battle themes, the victory fanfare yada yada. But it hasn't been an unbroken rule that the battle theme, victory theme, chocobo theme and crystal theme always have been put into the games. Except for the Chocobo Theme, I think, if we doesn't count FFX-2 in. (But I never count that game in...) The Chocobo theme is in this game, if it makes you feel better.

They've also got a lot of more subtle references, sort of tributes to odler titles as well, but some of them might've been unintentional, I'm not so sure. At least I like to think that Palumpolum is something along the lines of Palom and Porom.

[Cain Highwind]

I've got to stick up for the TC here. I refuse to play FFXIII because it's such a turnoff. Ever since I saw the XIII trailer, I just turned my nose up and said "No thanks"

You can talk about the little aspects that carried over from previous FFs all you want. And I'm not saying you're wrong necessarily. I'm saying FOR ME, there was always a feeling of adventure when anticipating an FF title. Yeah, character drama is expected, it was a way to give characters depth. But I feel like it kinda crept in to FF around VIII, really showed itself in X, took over XII (and I can claim that as fact with them booting out Matsuno), and is running rampant.

When I saw that English trailer for XIII, I saw what honestly looked like some Sci-fi Teen Soap that belongs on Syfy. I know I know, "You haven't played the game! What do you know about the story? It's SO INCREDIBLY DEEP!" Meh, maybe it is. But, I just couldn't help but get turned off. Anticipating other FF games have always been about wanting to fill in the shoes of the characters you see and taking them on a quest. Sharing in their endeavor that ends up saving the world.

Does XIII have that? You don't have to tell me, I'm sure it does, but seeing the game just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It's like me and caramel popcorn or whipped cream. How can I NOT like it. It's so sweet and tasty. I'm sorry it just doesn't TO ME. I JUST can't agree with this being the kind of game Sakaguchi, the creator of FF, wanted.

Another thing for me is that it feels like FFX all over again. I was SO hyped for that game, and I enjoyed, maybe the first third, maybe two-thirds of the game. I was overwhelmed by the disappointment. Really weak twist, liking the characters less and less, no world map, embarrassingly easy and lack of epicness of the final boss, and so on.

In short, it just feels like FF is becoming more flash over substance. Hearing impressions from importers and actual details of the gameplay, it really sounds like the game holds your hand and is more of an interactive movie. Sorry as a GAMER I don't want to wait 20 hours for it to open up. I've NEVER liked games that "lose" themselves in the story. Seriously, if I didn't hear so much about the "streamlined" linearity and lack of difficulty, I would be more inclined to give it a try, and I probably still will someday, just not anytime soon.

Now, I should say, I AM cautiously optimistic about Versus. It strikes me as more interesting, and considering I liked the Kingdom Hearts game for pure fun factor, I'm hoping Versus can offer the same.

[theblackmonster]

everyone's entitled to their opinion and how they see things but......


play the game. beat it.


then make your points, you haven't seen anything or understood any of FF13 until you have fully completed it, don't make assumptions or claims that hold no importance.


so far i am so in love with this game and could not ask for more.

[Che]

I've got to stick up for the TC here. I refuse to play FFXIII because it's such a turnoff. Ever since I saw the XIII trailer, I just turned my nose up and said "No thanks"

You can talk about the little aspects that carried over from previous FFs all you want. And I'm not saying you're wrong necessarily. I'm saying FOR ME, there was always a feeling of adventure when anticipating an FF title. Yeah, character drama is expected, it was a way to give characters depth. But I feel like it kinda crept in to FF around VIII, really showed itself in X, took over XII (and I can claim that as fact with them booting out Matsuno), and is running rampant.

When I saw that English trailer for XIII, I saw what honestly looked like some Sci-fi Teen Soap that belongs on Syfy. I know I know, "You haven't played the game! What do you know about the story? It's SO INCREDIBLY DEEP!" Meh, maybe it is. But, I just couldn't help but get turned off. Anticipating other FF games have always been about wanting to fill in the shoes of the characters you see and taking them on a quest. Sharing in their endeavor that ends up saving the world.

Does XIII have that? You don't have to tell me, I'm sure it does, but seeing the game just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It's like me and caramel popcorn or whipped cream. How can I NOT like it. It's so sweet and tasty. I'm sorry it just doesn't TO ME. I JUST can't agree with this being the kind of game Sakaguchi, the creator of FF, wanted.

Another thing for me is that it feels like FFX all over again. I was SO hyped for that game, and I enjoyed, maybe the first third, maybe two-thirds of the game. I was overwhelmed by the disappointment. Really weak twist, liking the characters less and less, no world map, embarrassingly easy and lack of epicness of the final boss, and so on.

In short, it just feels like FF is becoming more flash over substance. Hearing impressions from importers and actual details of the gameplay, it really sounds like the game holds your hand and is more of an interactive movie. Sorry as a GAMER I don't want to wait 20 hours for it to open up. I've NEVER liked games that "lose" themselves in the story. Seriously, if I didn't hear so much about the "streamlined" linearity and lack of difficulty, I would be more inclined to give it a try, and I probably still will someday, just not anytime soon.

Now, I should say, I AM cautiously optimistic about Versus. It strikes me as more interesting, and considering I liked the Kingdom Hearts game for pure fun factor, I'm hoping Versus can offer the same.

Seems to me like you don't want to like it, and/or you are growing out of the series. You're older now and wouldn't have liked the old ones either, except you've hung onto the experience you had playing them when you were younger.

[T.G. Oskar]

I've got to stick up for the TC here. I refuse to play FFXIII because it's such a turnoff. Ever since I saw the XIII trailer, I just turned my nose up and said "No thanks"

You can talk about the little aspects that carried over from previous FFs all you want. And I'm not saying you're wrong necessarily. I'm saying FOR ME, there was always a feeling of adventure when anticipating an FF title. Yeah, character drama is expected, it was a way to give characters depth. But I feel like it kinda crept in to FF around VIII, really showed itself in X, took over XII (and I can claim that as fact with them booting out Matsuno), and is running rampant.

When I saw that English trailer for XIII, I saw what honestly looked like some Sci-fi Teen Soap that belongs on Syfy. I know I know, "You haven't played the game! What do you know about the story? It's SO INCREDIBLY DEEP!" Meh, maybe it is. But, I just couldn't help but get turned off. Anticipating other FF games have always been about wanting to fill in the shoes of the characters you see and taking them on a quest. Sharing in their endeavor that ends up saving the world.

Does XIII have that? You don't have to tell me, I'm sure it does, but seeing the game just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It's like me and caramel popcorn or whipped cream. How can I NOT like it. It's so sweet and tasty. I'm sorry it just doesn't TO ME. I JUST can't agree with this being the kind of game Sakaguchi, the creator of FF, wanted.

Another thing for me is that it feels like FFX all over again. I was SO hyped for that game, and I enjoyed, maybe the first third, maybe two-thirds of the game. I was overwhelmed by the disappointment. Really weak twist, liking the characters less and less, no world map, embarrassingly easy and lack of epicness of the final boss, and so on.

In short, it just feels like FF is becoming more flash over substance. Hearing impressions from importers and actual details of the gameplay, it really sounds like the game holds your hand and is more of an interactive movie. Sorry as a GAMER I don't want to wait 20 hours for it to open up. I've NEVER liked games that "lose" themselves in the story. Seriously, if I didn't hear so much about the "streamlined" linearity and lack of difficulty, I would be more inclined to give it a try, and I probably still will someday, just not anytime soon.

Now, I should say, I AM cautiously optimistic about Versus. It strikes me as more interesting, and considering I liked the Kingdom Hearts game for pure fun factor, I'm hoping Versus can offer the same.

That's why you should look at it as Final (Non)Fantasy XIII; aka, strip it of all actual links to the series and look at it from another perspective. Is it a good game were it not a FF game? If you don't like it for what it is (as I believe you do), then you have a much solid reason; you don't like the game, period.

In either case, at least it is a much more solid reason than why I even refuse to consider shelling some of my bucks on the 360 version, let alone buy a brand new PS3 just for it. That means my earlier post was somehow a "devil's advocate" approach, since I have no intention of even considering it, but I still feel that not everybody has to agree with me on whether the game is good or not. It depends on whether they like the game for what it is, and not because it has the Final Fantasy label.

Hence, the reference to Dungeons & Dragons. 4th Edition is a good game. But to me, it's not the D&D I know, and I basically only know more about 3.5 than OD&D, AD&D 2nd Edition or D&D 4E. There are some aspects that I find bizarre to even link to the image I have cultivated of the series, but when I see it stripped of the title, it is a pretty exciting system.

To most of you people, the fact that you see the game and see a "this is not the Final Fantasy I know" may serve as a deterrent. It may help to see it as an independent-existing entity, and measure the worth of the game for what it is, not for what the label says. However, if you don't like the game itself, no matter of convincing will do, not even with solid facts.

[Yang's bald head]

After playing FFI, IV and VI, going to play VII was a shock. What the hell is this game? A guy riding a motorbike, trains, guns. This isn't final fantasy, I almost didn't bother playing it due to how it looked. Then materia, 3 characters, no jobs, how different can you get? I don't think I need to explain how pleasantly suprised I was when I did play it.

All games have their weakness. I didn't like the fact VIII world felt so empty, didn't like the secret content of IX, Osma looked silly.. X I didn't like the battle system or the fact there was no world map. XII's story bored me.

The game is different, every single FF is different from the next one but thats what makes the series great and keeps people interested.