I know you prefer Sephiroth, but so far your bias made you state things you can't possibly be sure of, they are just but a mere speculations.Originally Posted by Heartless Angel
In fact we don't know how strong Jenova really is. Jenova that made appearance in Final Fantasy VII was just a butchered form of what was the biggest threat to Cetra, race far superior to humans, 2000 years ago. For God's sake her head was chopped of, many experiments were conducted on her, if she was her true self I highly doubt Sephiroth would have any control over her. And wasn't Sephiroth goal to achieve higher power, thus being able to travel through Universe and pose the same threat as his "mother", which means Jenova might have actually been stronger than Sephiroth, she certainly had stronger opposition. Now, who's to say that there aren't stronger ones of her kind, Sephiroth has Jenova cells as part of him, as much as that gives him an advantage it can be used against him by other Jenova's as well.
Last edited by Xanatos; 02-06-2011 at 04:44 AM.
Sig and Avy made by Unknown Entity
We know that it has been plainly stated that Sephiroth is the strongest being in the FFVII world. Jenova is in the FFVII world, therefore Sephiroth is stronger than she is. Any other members of Jenova's race that happen to crash land on that planet are also in the FFVII world, and therefore Sephiroth is also stronger than they are. This is not bias or speculation, this is simply inferring one truth from another by means of logic.
For Our Lord Sheogorath, without Whom all Thought would be linear and all Feeling would be fleeting. Blessed are the Madmen, for they hold the keys to secret knowledge. Blessed are the Phobic, always wary of that which would do them harm. Blessed are the Obsessed, for their courses are clear. Blessed are the Addicts, may they quench the thirst that never ebbs. Blessed are the Murderous, for they have found beauty in the grotesque. Blessed are the Firelovers, for their hearts are always warm. Blessed are the Artists, for in their hands the impossible is made real. Blessed are the Musicians, for in their ears they hear the music of the soul. Blessed are the Sleepless, as they bask in wakeful dreaming. Blessed are the Paranoid, ever-watchful for our enemies. Blessed are the Visionaries, for their eyes see what might be. Blessed are the Painlovers, for in their suffering, we grow stronger. Blessed is the Madgod, who tricks us when we are foolish, punishes us when we are wrong, tortures us when we are unmindful, and loves us in our imperfection.
Not sure I understand, though I'll make an example by using your own logic. In his respective comics it was stated that Superman is the strongest being in universe, any villain that makes appearance in his comics is by default inferior, now, what's with those few villains that were a league above Superman? Am I getting this wrong or what...
With Jenova crippled, Sephiroth may as well be the strongest one in world of Final Fantasy VII, though was he the strongest one in history of Final Fantasy VII world or at this moment.
A being who may defeat Sephiroth once and for all doesn't necessarily need to be stronger than him, sure, strength gives one advantage, but there are other means to accomplish your victory. Dr. Manhattan was far superior to Ozymandias as far as intellect goes, the gap was even larger than between Cloud, and Sephiroth, after all Dr. Manhattan was considered to be a God, now tell me, who ended up being smarter at the end.
Sig and Avy made by Unknown Entity
If there were villains stronger than Superman, then the statement that he was the strongest was quite simply wrong. The only logic here is a deductive proof the initial statement was wrong. No such case as of yet exists in FFVII. Again, yes there are remote possibilities that some magical being could pop into existance with the ability violate one of the most basic laws of physics by destroying energy. This remote possibility is by no means evidence of such a being existing. You can make up new entities in any fictional setting that throws everything we already know out the window. For the sake of example, let's say neither of us has actually finishied FFIX and were arguing about whether or not Kuja could win in the end. I say there is a remote possibility that somewhere in the universe of IX exists a lifeform that happens to be equipped with a planet sized anti Ultima barrier, a Trance reversing Tazer, and the ability to eat Eidolons and erase Kuja from existance with its big toe. Would you call this remote possibility evidence of Kuja's weakness or inability to win? After all you can't prove beyond all doubt that this entity doesn't exist and isn't going to show up at the last second to make use of its almighty toe. I certainly wouldn't as there is absolutely no reason to believe this entity exists, and if it did that it would have any reason at all to be on Gaia or Terra to use these powers. The remote possibility is not an argument that this would actually happen. The best argument you could make it out it would be inductive, and so incredibly weak that no reasonable person would accept it unless they did so to fit their own bias based on personal preference, not logic.
What you've given here is an explanation of one possible way Sephiroth could concievably lose. Not ONLY do we have no reason to believe that any of this would occur, but several good reasons to believe the exact opposite. Firstly, the basic law of physics that energy (mako) couldn't be destroyed. Secondly, the statement by the creators that Sephiroth is the strongest being in the FFVII world which you would be refuting with the introduction of such a being. Also the fact that Sephiroth, being dead and in a state of pure energy with a conciousness, has no cells at all for any higher Jenova-esque lifeform to control even if it DID exist and refute the 'word of god'. At very best I have to acknowledge that you've refuted my statement that Seph CAN'T lose, and substitute it with the statement that the chance of Sephiroth losing is so infinitesimal, that it's perfectly within reason to accept it as an impossibility.
For Our Lord Sheogorath, without Whom all Thought would be linear and all Feeling would be fleeting. Blessed are the Madmen, for they hold the keys to secret knowledge. Blessed are the Phobic, always wary of that which would do them harm. Blessed are the Obsessed, for their courses are clear. Blessed are the Addicts, may they quench the thirst that never ebbs. Blessed are the Murderous, for they have found beauty in the grotesque. Blessed are the Firelovers, for their hearts are always warm. Blessed are the Artists, for in their hands the impossible is made real. Blessed are the Musicians, for in their ears they hear the music of the soul. Blessed are the Sleepless, as they bask in wakeful dreaming. Blessed are the Paranoid, ever-watchful for our enemies. Blessed are the Visionaries, for their eyes see what might be. Blessed are the Painlovers, for in their suffering, we grow stronger. Blessed is the Madgod, who tricks us when we are foolish, punishes us when we are wrong, tortures us when we are unmindful, and loves us in our imperfection.
Well since sephiroths power is in the plot, as mr oscar said, I believe the creators could basically find a away to ring some sort of jenova figure that absorbs mako and becomes stronger, then sephiroth would lose in power.
THe only reason why I say that is because they didn't state that untill the movie, which I hate because it is the only one other than FF4 that got extra attention...
Your pathetic existence will shut down. I will make your lives end in ruin. Fear me, as you fear death. Not a threat, not a promise, but what must be finished. 7 final arcs...
His power isn't exclusively in the plot. He's a naturally powerful character. Popwer of Plot comes in when you become 'stronger' for the sake of driving storyline. A random jenova figure has 0 plot nescessity, so Power of Plot would be in full on Seph's side. Again, you're not posing an argument, but looking for some obscure possibility of him losing. That does not reduce the power he has in any way.
For Our Lord Sheogorath, without Whom all Thought would be linear and all Feeling would be fleeting. Blessed are the Madmen, for they hold the keys to secret knowledge. Blessed are the Phobic, always wary of that which would do them harm. Blessed are the Obsessed, for their courses are clear. Blessed are the Addicts, may they quench the thirst that never ebbs. Blessed are the Murderous, for they have found beauty in the grotesque. Blessed are the Firelovers, for their hearts are always warm. Blessed are the Artists, for in their hands the impossible is made real. Blessed are the Musicians, for in their ears they hear the music of the soul. Blessed are the Sleepless, as they bask in wakeful dreaming. Blessed are the Paranoid, ever-watchful for our enemies. Blessed are the Visionaries, for their eyes see what might be. Blessed are the Painlovers, for in their suffering, we grow stronger. Blessed is the Madgod, who tricks us when we are foolish, punishes us when we are wrong, tortures us when we are unmindful, and loves us in our imperfection.
I wasn't talking about the other villians, we kinda stryed of the beaten path lol
How about we go on path and actually state what they would in if they met, would they even fight?
Who would be irritant enough to make the first move, are they even capable to be manipulated? (their will)
Your pathetic existence will shut down. I will make your lives end in ruin. Fear me, as you fear death. Not a threat, not a promise, but what must be finished. 7 final arcs...
@Heartless Angel - And this is why I hate speculations. No offense, but whenever there's a discussion going about Final Fantasy villains, to hide his lack of accomplishments Sephiroth fans quite often turn to what might he achieve in near future. While there are more than enough facts that he may actually achieve his goal, he still has to do it, so I really don't see how can a mere speculation be on the table as a comparison to what other villains have already achieved.
To learn more about Sephiroth I decided to read Ultimania Omega, and google a little bit. I came to understand that Sephiroth's immortality was first introduced eight years after original game in Advent Children for sole purpose of the movie. Sephiroth's will was still present, but to take a form, and pose a threat he needed Jenova, thus the rush for Jenova's only remaining part of the body, her head. His will may be immortal, but to take a form he'll need to find another way if he's to achieve his goals, as there nothing left of Jenova. Geostigma was his mean to gain control over the lifstream, not just that his will is in lifstream, but he doesn't have any control over the lifstream itself. In one way or another he's indeed immortal, due to strong will to be more precise, is he's capable of posing threat in near future is the real question here. Why seek power when according to you he's already the strongest one as far as Final Fantasy VII goes.
Now, if immortality was indeed introduced in Advent Children, and it probably is judging by Nojima's words, that means creators never intended to make Sephiroth immortal during the events of original game. When Final Fantasy VII was released Sephiroth's defeat would mean his death, his defeat wasn't result of not caring, but ego, and insanity. He might have been the strongest person in Final Fantasy VII, but he lost traits of brilliant tactician as soon as he went cuckoo, which was his downfall as brilliant tacticians don't underestimate the same opponent several times. If we're to look at Final Fantasy VII, the way it's meant to be, Sephiroth achieved nothing, he was close to realizing his goal, but he still failed. The question is, shall we compare villains by their respective games, or is there a need to discus what he may or may not accomplish so we might add that as one of his points as well.
I would also like to thank you, I'm not curious man myself, as far as these things concern, but your post made me research Sephiroth a little bit, and I got to understand him more. One more thing though, if you could provide me with a link to source where's Sephiroth stated to be the strongest being in world of Final Fantasy VII, I couldn't find it myself, I would appreciate it.
Sig and Avy made by Unknown Entity
Immortality IS an acomplishment as far as I'm concerned. A gateway acomplishment that can only lead to more. I consider the full story. Only reason one would choose to ignore a continuation is if it made one's case harder to make. But, if you want to argue solely on their original games, yes. Sephiroth did lose. He does sitll however posess greater power than anything else in his world, and more power than other villains. Whether or not he put that power to good use is another thing entirely.
I'll have to go dig that quote up later, got a damned research paper to do now unfortunately.
For Our Lord Sheogorath, without Whom all Thought would be linear and all Feeling would be fleeting. Blessed are the Madmen, for they hold the keys to secret knowledge. Blessed are the Phobic, always wary of that which would do them harm. Blessed are the Obsessed, for their courses are clear. Blessed are the Addicts, may they quench the thirst that never ebbs. Blessed are the Murderous, for they have found beauty in the grotesque. Blessed are the Firelovers, for their hearts are always warm. Blessed are the Artists, for in their hands the impossible is made real. Blessed are the Musicians, for in their ears they hear the music of the soul. Blessed are the Sleepless, as they bask in wakeful dreaming. Blessed are the Paranoid, ever-watchful for our enemies. Blessed are the Visionaries, for their eyes see what might be. Blessed are the Painlovers, for in their suffering, we grow stronger. Blessed is the Madgod, who tricks us when we are foolish, punishes us when we are wrong, tortures us when we are unmindful, and loves us in our imperfection.
Well than, thank you Xanatos for letting me on a little more info from sephy, I didn't look up on him cause I despise the hype of FF7 and refused to do mostly anything with it, so thanks.
Your pathetic existence will shut down. I will make your lives end in ruin. Fear me, as you fear death. Not a threat, not a promise, but what must be finished. 7 final arcs...
I thought it was important to clarify something:
"Power of plot" is not a quantifiable type of power, but a "qualitative" type of power. Although we're doing a measurement of Sephy's power (and the power of all other villains) in a qualitative method, "power of plot" is not something you define by words such as "little" or "much", nor with words such as "weak" or "powerful".
Power of plot is, essentially, to have the right power when plot dictates it. If we were to measure power of plot based on use, and compare all people who have power of plot against each other, Sephy wouldn't be even 0.000001% as powerful as the king of power of plot, Silver Age Superman. With a family, defined set of powers, being pretty much undefeatable and having super-everything (even super-ventriloquism and super-hypnosis, that's how he hid his secret identity), he was the definition of unbeatable. Of course, his power of plot ran out with Crisis on Infinite Earths.
Oh wait, we have Batman as the absolute ruler of power of plot, and he's for all concepts human. When you have "Bat Shark-Repellant Spray" on the utility belt, you know he's crazy prepared. To ridiculous extents, that is.
Evidently, power of plot works on a meta-scale, in which stuff is essentially added to patch parts of the story which might be shaky when a character has an undefined set of powers. If your powers are, say, much like the sidekicks on Sky High, you really can't do much with them; now, compare that to the power of the Scarlet Witch (yet another character with Power of Plot running on steroids), and you can pull off entire storylines with it (as in, House of M and subsequent "no more mutants" stories).
One of the traits is that such characters will be considered, plot-wise, insanely powerful (because you really can't define the limits of their power). Villains usually have a little bit of "power of plot" to fulfill their plans, usually serving some purposes: surviving a sound defeat of the heroes (or just being plain invincible on one battle), appearing when least expected to take the McGuffin (the artifact which everyone seems to look for) out of the heroes' hands, pulling off incredible stuff such as suddenly convincing an entire kingdom the heroes are actually the bad guys, and so forth. Some uses of "power of plot" aren't actual shows of power in first place; instead, they are resources used by the storyline writer to advance the plot. Some are perfectly explainable (such as Kefka's insanity and descent into evil, Sephy's descent into evil and so on) and some just don't seem to do so, which might lead into plot-holes (the realm of discontinuity for Superman before CoIE).
As Heartless mentioned, villains have essentially undefined amounts of power of plot until they are defeated by the heroes (whom also have power of plot abilities, but not the same as the villains). In the case of Sephy, though, it seems power of plot didn't really ran out, unlike in the case of others whom got what they deserved; what happened was that plot needed him again and did the revival Aeris actually deserved (but didn't because that would otherwise ruin the plot, no?).
Power of plot, as stated, is no true measurement of the individual's perceived power potential. Power of plot is not a bad thing, either. However, a creator can use power of plot in a bad way, which leads to discomfort between people.
Odin (and only Odin, I don't want to extend this a bit further), consider the following: say we're dealing with FFVI. We all know Kefka was soundly beaten, his will eradicated, the power of the Espers dissipates, Terra becomes fully human instead of half-Esper (never mind the genetic troubles with that), and so on. Then, assume several years later, there's a video sequel to Final Fantasy where, somehow, Magic has revived, people find Daryl's body and reincarnate Kefka in that body; furthermore, the power of the Espers that was supposed to wane suddenly starts reappearing, Terra's powers reawaken, and Terra (still addled about why her power has reappeared, with the consequence that it might never have left at all) has to face Kefka, with support from all the characters of the game (even Mog, Umaro and Gogo). Let's also define that the Warring Triad is the most powerful thing on the world of Final Fantasy VI, that Sakaguchi himself stated that, and that Kefka is the incarnation of the Warring Triad, thus he's the most powerful individual in that world by definition. Now, let's assume Final Fantasy VII was made, and it ended exactly as it ended before. However, Crisis Core, Advent Children and other sequels never existed.
Finally, let's assume the same situation stands, with most people (I would claim myself included) defending Kefka, while others defend Sephy.
One: which might be the most powerful then? Second: did Kefka, in this exercise, was the most powerful because of power of plot, or because the story has defined him as the most powerful? Again, I only want Odin to answer this; no analyzing, no trying to aid; let him answer, and I'll answer later, and then you might comment.
If you wanna comment, Xanatos' point is a good one, though I consider the story is best told entirely, even if that would otherwise damage the story (though I also find it's invaluable to fix the damage done to the story). Case in point: Star Wars. Love it or hate it, Expanded Universe material is canon, and it expands on both what happened before AND what will happen in the future, and it makes some characters far more epic than they would have otherwise been (Obi-Wan, Palpatine), even though it might have done some damage to others (Darth Vader). There are some things that definitely should have gone out (Jar-Jar!!!!), but otherwise the plot behind the first trilogy wasn't so bad. I mean, if you saw the ending of Attack of the Clones you might have been as exited as pretty much everyone about what happened; also, it truly cemented Palpatine as an utter bastard of a villain. But some people consider only the first trilogy is canon, much like most people might wanna forget Kirk's trend on Star Trek and focus mostly on Picard (or viceversa). Still: if what Ultimania says has some validity, then the only reason why Sephy has immortality is caprice of the creator? Furthermore, is that a revision done by Kitase or was it originally on Sakaguchi's plans when pitching the original concept of FFVII (considering he also dealt with the concept of immortals in Lost Odyssey, which may be further proof or a massive "take that!" to FFVII's deal with immortality).
Delivering scathing wit as a Rogue using Sneak Attack.
Pester me on the Giant in the Playground Forums if you really need me.
The Final Boss Theorem:
'Tis a shame I can only place names now...:
Nomu-baka, this is FAR from over...:
! I'm important! Yay! xD
Okay. In your dramatization, Kefka did not become a higher level of energy until they created another FF6. (FF6-2?) BUt then again, they basically manipulated the story-line in that he always had that power, though we never knew about it until the sequel.
I have it in my head what you are saying, but my head doesn't organize the details correctly.
It is this.
So kefka was the strongest, but we would have never known unless they did a sequel
Crap head going boom.
THe creators made him stronger after the second release in which he may have already been but yeh... I have it... can't say it... >.>
Your pathetic existence will shut down. I will make your lives end in ruin. Fear me, as you fear death. Not a threat, not a promise, but what must be finished. 7 final arcs...
Didn't went answering the second question, but here goes the thought for the first:
In their respective games, both Kefka and Sephiroth (and just about every other villain) is pretty much assumed dead, exterminated, and their story ended. While with Kefka things are darn near impossible (what with the idea that with Kefka's death, Magic itself perished), there was an apparent glimpse of hope that Sephiroth can survive in the Lifestream because he did already. Note that I'm saying "survived", never said "died and resurrected".
The first answer is basically what the creators did with Sephiroth, but in a different way. There's the theme of reincarnation (Kefka -> Daryl; Sephy -> Kadaj), the concept of "things are not over yet" (with Kefka comes the return of Magic, with Sephy the return of Jenova and her influence), the idea that "so as long as X exists, Y will exist" (Kefka being pretty much the God of Magic; Sephy existing as long as there's something that anchors him to the world of the living, hence the "I will never be a memory" quote), and other similarities. The one particular difference between both stories is that one is unreal (Kefka surviving, unless Squeenix proves me wrong) and the other is undeniably real. There was no argument towards Sephy pretty much becoming immortal until Advent Children, Ultimania and On the Way to a Smile came in; until that, Sephy had perished, and there was no way to revive him as Cloud had pretty much exorcised him out of his system. Had someone suggested that idea on that scenario, people would have stated there was a plot hole or something, while you would have had undeniable proof that Kefka could be revived. How is that possible?
Enter part 2, and the second question: the power of plot. Sephy's death wasn't entirely ambiguous when FFVII (and only FFVII) ended; it turned ambiguous when later material stated he had survived. So he pretty much pulls immortality from the power of plot. Now, does that make him powerful? Same as Kefka on the imagined scenario, Sephy isn't powerful by the power of plot; however, it is a mechanism used to give him greater power. Note that until the three materials came out and FFVII was expanded, you couldn't argue that Sephy was the more powerful because it was on equal playing grounds with the rest of the villains, and the others did show some lasting effect on the world (though he DID gave a lasting impression on the world, given that Meteor was still going on). What gave him the edge was the fact that he was given a chance to effectively remain alive, thus opening the can of worms of "if he revived once, he'll revive again". Same thing with death in comics; it's never permanent because they pretty much ALWAYS revive (sans a few, such as Gwen; but she was turned into a clone, so YMMV). That doesn't mean he's powerful because of the power of plot, but he's powerful because of the effects of the power of plot, just like every other villain. In a meta-vision of things, while the others' plots are finished (and with Zemus, pretty much proven as the sequel to FFIV didn't include him), his remains.
Finally, it wasn't a dramatization, and Kefka reached the top echelon of power when he got the Statues, never when he got reincarnated. Much like Sephy got power from his birth, from his training, and from his time at the Lifestream (though at the latter he gained knowledge, scientia est potentia). Furthermore, I didn't invent the plot, but it was a nice comparison (in fact, it's from an old FF/CT crossover fanfic, and the villain was Dalton of all people); had the creators stated "this is the way he endures on", it would have been pretty much undefeatable proof that he was powerful (because he survived, his plot goes on, so forth). That wouldn't have stopped people from saying there were some plot-holes on the ending, buttock-pulls and whatnot, effectively shattering the fandom of the series into two groups. That's exactly what has happened with Sephiroth (heck, even the page I linked has it), and there will be people to take the position of defense and attack.
So, what does this has to deal with the topic at all? Nothing, but it showcases just how the topic devolved from the strongest villain to the best villain, except Kefka (the usual suspect for Best Villain of Final Fantasy) is absent, with Ulti and Kuja taking that spot. The core of the discussion has gone from defining who's the strongest to determining the exact strength of Sephiroth (undeniably the "ficha de tranque"; a Spanish term coined in domino for the tile move that prevents the game from moving forward, effectively ending the game; the term represents a position within an organization that has two people in conflict and not allowing one to move one inch to the other side). And going into that tangent means you'll have people trying to use arguments about "the best villain" to support the idea of the "strongest villain" (such as what Xanatos stated and I support that Sephy did nothing with such power potential, while Heartless supports he did a lot, he could do a lot more, and he's just biding time to do it). The message to you is that from now on, mark your words very carefully because if what you speak doesn't contribute to moving the topic position one inch to one side or the other, then it'll just contribute to the conflict. That doesn't mean that your point isn't valid, but as you might have noticed, it might start to get rebuked.
Now, your observation is good, but that's not the only observation you can make. Kefka, before perishing, was actually quite powerful; effectively the most powerful being in his world, requiring a massive team of people to face him down. What's more, he also played with people by pretty much telekinetically moving them away, ready to do freefall since they were at the top of the Tower. You could notice how his influence was pretty much killing the world, and he couldn't do more than gladly help as he used the Light of Judgment out of a whim. Now, does that make him the most powerful? In his world, of course, but probably not in the general sense as the heroes fought on pretty much equal terms (the Espers were providing their power to them, Celes was a Magitek Knight and thus had innate magic powers, Strago was a Blue Mage and well-versed in various magics, with the ability to learn a spell such as Grand Train; Terra being a half-Esper, period).
As to why I still support Ultimecia? The argument that she failed, and hence couldn't be so powerful because she was defeated, is a defensive argument rooted in "power of plot"; she succeeded in what she wanted (to use the Time Compression spell), but the heroes succeeded in their own plan (to face Ultimecia on her own time). Even then, she had enough power to seal her own castle, thus effectively preventing the party from accessing their full power, then creating the most powerful spell and the most powerful GF from her own mind, and had she succeeded on destroying the team and sending them to their own world, "absorbed by time", she would have been pretty much uncontested. She, as well as Squall and co., had all the time in the world because time had effectively halted; however, it is Ultimecia's ability to create concepts from nothing (which I could argue is the power of Hyne himself, being the god of magic in that world) coupled with the power of all Sorceresses of ALL times PLUS the ability to manipulate Time is what makes her powerful, IF not the most powerful villain of them all. Even then, when she perished, she still managed to make her plan a stable time loop, by giving Edea her Sorceress' powers (which, if you notice at the ending, Squall attempts to stop but Edea refuses, stating she knew very well what would happen and that had such a thing never happened, SeeD wouldn't have existed at all because she knew all of Ultimecia's plans). Ultimecia seals her own doom by succeeding on her plan, but darn, her plan succeeded and she had unfathomable power on her hands (unlike Sephiroth, mind you Heartless). The rest is just arguments to whether she was the best villain or not, which if you consider carefully she wasn't.
Also to note: both Sephy and Ulti had the authors throw a bone to the heroes or else they would have failed. It just happens that the bone thrown to AVALANCHE was given with the rest of the skeleton, the meat, the garnishing, the platter, the sides, the table, the location and the time, not to mention the invitation to the banquet. That's the argument behind "power of plot", and one of the defensive points of the Sephy fanbase (both fanboys and illustrated fans such as Heartless over here); given all points, Sephiroth shouldn't have lost.
Delivering scathing wit as a Rogue using Sneak Attack.
Pester me on the Giant in the Playground Forums if you really need me.
The Final Boss Theorem:
'Tis a shame I can only place names now...:
Nomu-baka, this is FAR from over...:
Immortality is quite an accomplishment, God knows how many times I pined that down as his strongest point. But it was introduced eight years after original game as a mean to introduce him once more. If we're look at original game creators never meant to make Sephiroth immortal, but overall popularity of both character, and the game changed that with Advent Children. Immortality itself is not what you meant it out to be, he's restricted as he can't pop out whenever he wants. His will may be immortal, but not to dissolve it's fighting with lifstream which he doesn't have any control over it, thus the attempt with Geostigma. And judging by Advent Children he's going to have to find another way to take a form, as there's nothing left of Jenova. Immortality may lead him to what he desires, but at the same time, due to few problems he has to solve, it wont be as easy as you seem to claim, him still seeking power indicates that the current immortality is far from what he imagined as ultimate power.
I don't mind taking the entire story as a comparison, in fact I welcome it, but considering that he appeared in several medias, in Advent Children immortality was even added, he did little with what he had to offer, and after Advent Children I'm starting to doubt, and have good reasons for it, if he will accomplish anything in near future. Not really a card I would like to play, if I was a Sephiroth fan, as a comparison to other villains who accomplished their goals despite the fact that they only appeared in their respective game.
You can have a God like power, but what for if you don't know how to use it. Sephiroth's a perfect example of such villain, good villains take advantage of everything on their disposal, stupid comparison but nevertheless, he reminds me of Dr. Evil from Austin Powers, he has means and opportunity to accomplish his goal, but doesn't know how to.
Sig and Avy made by Unknown Entity
Oh God I lol'd XD
Even if the world was completely devoid of Jenova cells (which it isn't, there's still a living Jenova project with a body much stronger than Kadaj's) The lifestream itself is recycled. Could take ages, but eventually Sephiroth's energy (will intact) will be used in a new lifeform. So again, unless you can somehow destroy the life energy itself, he'll never truly be gone.
Who knows, it could take several millenia, at which point the world as we know it is gone and replaced by another civilization, and he might come back as a tree who will go on to become Exdeath! Okay, I highly doubt that, so don't treat that as an argument, or even a serious suggestion lol.
He has power. He has the means to use it. He has the will to use it. But the plot can't allow him to do so. If he used his full power, not even the Author would be able to save our heroes. It took the Deus Ex Machina to end all Deus Ex Machinae (I'm just gonna pretend that's the plural because I don't know) as is, and he DIDN'T use his power. He couldn't be allowed to, or Square would not have any any way in Hell or high water to reach a happy ending. They couldn't give it to him then take it away like they did with others, because what he wanted was to pretty much become God. Once you have that, it's over, you can't lose.I don't mind taking the entire story as a comparison, in fact I welcome it, but considering that he appeared in several medias, in Advent Children immortality was even added, he did little with what he had to offer, and after Advent Children I'm starting to doubt, and have good reasons for it, if he will accomplish anything in near future. Not really a card I would like to play, if I was a Sephiroth fan, as a comparison to other villains who accomplished their goals despite the fact that they only appeared in their respective game.
You can have a God like power, but what for if you don't know how to use it. Sephiroth's a perfect example of such villain, good villains take advantage of everything on their disposal, stupid comparison but nevertheless, he reminds me of Dr. Evil from Austin Powers, he has means and opportunity to accomplish his goal, but doesn't know how to.
For Our Lord Sheogorath, without Whom all Thought would be linear and all Feeling would be fleeting. Blessed are the Madmen, for they hold the keys to secret knowledge. Blessed are the Phobic, always wary of that which would do them harm. Blessed are the Obsessed, for their courses are clear. Blessed are the Addicts, may they quench the thirst that never ebbs. Blessed are the Murderous, for they have found beauty in the grotesque. Blessed are the Firelovers, for their hearts are always warm. Blessed are the Artists, for in their hands the impossible is made real. Blessed are the Musicians, for in their ears they hear the music of the soul. Blessed are the Sleepless, as they bask in wakeful dreaming. Blessed are the Paranoid, ever-watchful for our enemies. Blessed are the Visionaries, for their eyes see what might be. Blessed are the Painlovers, for in their suffering, we grow stronger. Blessed is the Madgod, who tricks us when we are foolish, punishes us when we are wrong, tortures us when we are unmindful, and loves us in our imperfection.
Well, no. The authors are the authors, which mean they can do anything lol.
What if they were to continue the series and somehow prove that mako was a subsidiary of a higher energy? I know it sounds stupid but we didn't know sephy was "immortal" till the movie.
Well, I have nothing more to say about Sephy or Ulty and their power, so like T.G said, should we move on to other villains more in-descriptive so we can at least compare them to other villains? How about Ex-death against Sephy or Kuja against Ulty or something.
Your pathetic existence will shut down. I will make your lives end in ruin. Fear me, as you fear death. Not a threat, not a promise, but what must be finished. 7 final arcs...
Exdeath vs Sephiroth should be interesting at least. Sephiroth can pretty much slice you to ribbons with that long sword of his. Exdeath is just an ancient evil that wants to end everything, and has the power to do so once he gains the power of the Void. One's calm, while the other won't hesitate to kill you.
I personally root for Exdeath, since all the Warriors of Dawn could do is seal his existence, and it was explained that "He kept going down, but wouldn't stay down". But like I said, it should be interesting since Sephiroth is one who doesn't stay down for long either.
Kuja is probably weaker than Ultimecia, since Kuja without Trance is weaker than Garland. But if this was a battle that lasted for days, Kuja would probably find a way to stop Ultimecia before she completes her Time Kompression.
Just a quick summary of my thoughts.
Last edited by Leon; 02-08-2011 at 02:07 PM.
Please read the poetry from two great friends of mine. May they find peace.
"The truth is like a lion; you don't have to defend it. Let it loose; it will defend itself."
~St. Augustine
Hmm, I woul have to say, not from fanboyism, Exdeath would win in a fight agasint Sephiroth.
Why?
Well, for 1, he reduced 5 towns to nothingness, nihility, within 5 seconds, with nothing more than thought.
Your pathetic existence will shut down. I will make your lives end in ruin. Fear me, as you fear death. Not a threat, not a promise, but what must be finished. 7 final arcs...
Jecht FFX, Personally my favorite evil dude because he looks soo badass and the music just fit that battle, unless u call Seymore a main boss, then I guess he ranks #2 from FFX
On FF, Garland (Duh, because he is soo badass, haha)
FFVI Kefka, I love his laugh, haha, its awesome, even tho that game is old, it is amazing
VII Sephi isnt, Sipher Sephi was fun, and whatever the first form was, that was fun too
XI Havent beaten it yet
XIII So far as of chapter 11 I think Barthandolus (However you spell his name) is pretty interesting, I havent died on him yet, haha, I still have yet to fight him again though.
Final Fantasy games played:1,2,3,6,7,9,10,12,13
Final Fantasy games beaten:7,10,13
I really didnt get too much into 1-3, I got about halfway through 6, didnt play 9 that much, and played 12 at a friends house.
Hmm, care to explain in your thoughts how Jecht is the strongest?
^^''
Your pathetic existence will shut down. I will make your lives end in ruin. Fear me, as you fear death. Not a threat, not a promise, but what must be finished. 7 final arcs...
Or a villain for that matter lol.
For Our Lord Sheogorath, without Whom all Thought would be linear and all Feeling would be fleeting. Blessed are the Madmen, for they hold the keys to secret knowledge. Blessed are the Phobic, always wary of that which would do them harm. Blessed are the Obsessed, for their courses are clear. Blessed are the Addicts, may they quench the thirst that never ebbs. Blessed are the Murderous, for they have found beauty in the grotesque. Blessed are the Firelovers, for their hearts are always warm. Blessed are the Artists, for in their hands the impossible is made real. Blessed are the Musicians, for in their ears they hear the music of the soul. Blessed are the Sleepless, as they bask in wakeful dreaming. Blessed are the Paranoid, ever-watchful for our enemies. Blessed are the Visionaries, for their eyes see what might be. Blessed are the Painlovers, for in their suffering, we grow stronger. Blessed is the Madgod, who tricks us when we are foolish, punishes us when we are wrong, tortures us when we are unmindful, and loves us in our imperfection.
Maybe...because he's Braska's Final Aeon and...is the designated villain before the pathetic excuse that's Yu Yevon? I mean, FFX is the only place where the final boss is a zombie that tries a tactic that his own daughter tries on you. Heck, the battle against Yunalesca is quite challenging, if only because she alternates between Curaga and Mega-Death, effectively forcing you to use Zombie creatively. But Jecht? I dunno, he's not the best villain...
Now, if you want to find the villain who has done his objective (take that, Sephy!!), look no further than Final Fantasy Tactics Advance. =) I kid, I kid.
Delivering scathing wit as a Rogue using Sneak Attack.
Pester me on the Giant in the Playground Forums if you really need me.
The Final Boss Theorem:
'Tis a shame I can only place names now...:
Nomu-baka, this is FAR from over...:
LOL
yeh, awesome setting for an awesome Final boss, then all we get is a spider? LOL. Maybe take away the spider and make something in spite of Omega weapon and take away auto life lol
That' intrigues me, FF tactics, is it good? I played 5 minutes of it and there was too much talking I was horribly confused lol
The first battle threw me off... I was done after that and played FF7, for the last time also lol
Who was the final villian in FFtactics? Maybe I could add him here?
Your pathetic existence will shut down. I will make your lives end in ruin. Fear me, as you fear death. Not a threat, not a promise, but what must be finished. 7 final arcs...
It all depends on whether you like tactical RPGs or not. If you do fine with Fire Emblem, Tactics Ogre or Disgaea, then you'll probably like FF Tactics. FFT is quite similar to Tactics Ogre (both Let Us Cling Together which comes this week and Knight of Lodis for the GBA) in terms of story and customization, as well as gameplay; all deal with great events in the world, with a heavy dose of politics and religion mixed in. Final Fantasy Tactics Advance, FFTA2 and FFXII vary greatly, with the first two similar in gameplay and (I'd dare say) better in customization but sorry stories, while FFXII behaves more like an MMO in terms of gameplay but has a very rich story that blends politics and religion into a Final Fantasy typical story. Yes, there's a lot of story, but that's because the story begins pretty odd (the first chapter is the early years of the main character and why he's what he is now; the second and third are the beginning of the Lion War, and the last chapter is the end of the Lion War and the aftermath, as well as the real mission of the final boss).
Well, that depends.Who was the final villian in FFtactics? Maybe I could add him here?
In Final Fantasy Tactics (and it's remake, War of the Lions):SPOILER!!:
In Final Fantasy Tactics Advance:SPOILER!!:
Delivering scathing wit as a Rogue using Sneak Attack.
Pester me on the Giant in the Playground Forums if you really need me.
The Final Boss Theorem:
'Tis a shame I can only place names now...:
Nomu-baka, this is FAR from over...:
Ahh, I see, would you say that this guy is comparable to other strong villians as in Ex-death or Ulty? Sephy?
Your pathetic existence will shut down. I will make your lives end in ruin. Fear me, as you fear death. Not a threat, not a promise, but what must be finished. 7 final arcs...
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks