Who is the strongest FF main villain!!

[Heartless Angel]

If Ultimecia can create griever from Squalls mind, she can read his mind then.
And this also means she can animate anything at will.

Not nescessarily. She had plenty of time to work with that. Perhaps that was simply an existing GF made to take any specific shape she wanted. Never was it stated otherwise, so you can't sue that as proof. Evidence, but not proof.

Ultimecia, while controlling Edea, mind screwed Deling and controlled him, showing her mental possession powers

Again, all this shows is she has mind screwing powers, not actual strength.

Edea had Ice, not time and space, so it was Ultimecias abilities that allowed her to walk through walls, phase through ceilings and reanimate statues.

We do not know with any certainty that Edea did not posess powers pertaining to space and time, or that any other Sorceresses did not have the same power.

I believe either Ultimecia was toying with the party as much as Sephy was, or she really didn't care to die, as this could have been her overall plan

In which case she never posed a threat at all lol.

Adel was tricked by her own ego, the only reason why she got caught, and the only reason why she lost to Squall and Co is because she hadn't had her powers after her release, which is why she had to draw from Rinoa.

Therefore you acknowledge that the power of previous sorceresses was not absolute, AND not even permanent. Now Ultimecia having access to them means quite a bit less, doesn't it?

Reasons why

1.If she was toying with them, that would make sense why she didn't finish them immediately.
2. If she was toying with them, that would make sense of why she didn't just create a thousand grievers to attack the party
3. If she was toying with them, that would make sense why she didn't go psycho mantis and acknowledge what they would do next, due to her mind reading abilities.
4. I believe Ulty was just trying to put fear into the party as how she introduced Griever, instead of creating something stronger than eden.

These aren't reasons, these are explanations. They're actually almost the reverse of reasons. Reasons are pieces of information we know, which we use to prove or give evidence to a conclusion. An explanation requires that we accept our conclusion is true, and attempts to make it fit into what we know. What you're offering thus far is not an argument, but a series of explanatory statements. Logic can't be applied here, becuase you're going about it backwards. You're not taking what we know and using it to prove your conlusion, you've decided on your conclusion first and are attempting to depict the world of FF8 in a way that allows it to fit in. At best, an explanation makes your conclusion possible, but it alone is insufficient to prove it.

All existance denied is also fitting with the Squall is Dead theory. ALOT of what Ulti said really cemented that theory for me. It wasn't THE world that was ending, but Squall's world, because he was dying.

[Angel of Iniquity]

Well the developers already stated that the squalls dead and Rinoa's ultimecia theories were false implications by fans.

You know that's why I tried to place strength and magic in two categories, you can't say that is not strength, it gives the user abilities beyond what average strength can, there for it is strength, magic=power=strength

No she didn't, all sorceresses have set categories of power. Edeas was Ice. Ultimecia used Edea as a shell. Edea clearly used Time and space magic not pertaining to Ice, and also using maelstrom which is Ultimecias spell.

Saying in that case she never proved a threat is wrong, perhaps I did not state that comment well, I meant in the final battle. Otherwise you can also say Sephiroth wasn't a threat. In which clearly he was.

Being in stasis for a while reduced her powers. It just weakened her. Put sephiroth away for a while not using any of his powers and he also would have little abilities when he is out. The seal in space was meant to stop all powers while sealed and Laguna stated that she would quickly gain her powers, meaning she didn't lose her powers completely.

a basis or cause, as for some belief, action, fact, event, etc... It is the same as an explanation, tho I see what you tried to do their haha ^o^

ANd what you said is what everybody here has been doing if they have an fan.
We try to prove why our villains are strongest, which is what I just did...>.>

I'm sure I gave valid reasons why she is powerful, and reasons why she failed cause in reality, sephiroth didn't show that much or nearly that much, please show me wrong though, by showing his abilities in comparative to time and space, nothing beats time and space, as they are absolute in equity to life. Take away time and they can not live, take away space and they cannot exist.

[Heartless Angel]

You know that's why I tried to place strength and magic in two categories, you can't say that is not strength, it gives the user abilities beyond what average strength can, there for it is strength, magic=power=strength

Not at all. When I say strength I don't mean physical power. I mean destructive power. Ultimecia's magic is not destructive, nor does she use it destructively.

No she didn't, all sorceresses have set categories of power. Edeas was Ice. Ultimecia used Edea as a shell. Edea clearly used Time and space magic not pertaining to Ice, and also using maelstrom which is Ultimecias spell.

At no point in time did I ever hear Edea referred to as an ice Sorceress, or Adel as an anti continent Sorceress. You're confusing specialization with limits. Magic is drawn in VIII, you can get your hands on any spell if you know where it comes from. Ultimecia obviously knows where to get her hands on time and space magic.

Saying in that case she never proved a threat is wrong, perhaps I did not state that comment well, I meant in the final battle. Otherwise you can also say Sephiroth wasn't a threat. In which clearly he was.

Being in stasis for a while reduced her powers. It just weakened her. Put sephiroth away for a while not using any of his powers and he also would have little abilities when he is out. The seal in space was meant to stop all powers while sealed and Laguna stated that she would quickly gain her powers, meaning she didn't lose her powers completely.

Not at all. You stated Ultimecia wanted to lose, and was playing a game. If that was the case, she was aware of her own defeat, and that it would undo all she'd done. If she planned for everything to go back to normal and endeavored to make it happen, nobody was ever in danger. Sephiroth's plan isn't over, and he hasn't lost. He continues to threaten people and the world. Ultimecia does not. If that was by her own doing, intentionally, there never was anything to worry about.

Sephiroth also was in stasis mate, by his own choice. He was fine when he came out, strength completely intact. If anything he was stronger than before.

a basis or cause, as for some belief, action, fact, event, etc... It is the same as an explanation, tho I see what you tried to do their haha ^o^

ANd what you said is what everybody here has been doing if they have an fan.
We try to prove why our villains are strongest, which is what I just did...>.>

I'm sure I gave valid reasons why she is powerful, and reasons why she failed cause in reality, sephiroth didn't show that much or nearly that much, please show me wrong though, by showing his abilities in comparative to time and space, nothing beats time and space, as they are absolute in equity to life. Take away time and they can not live, take away space and they cannot exist.

Not at all. A Premise is a reason why we should believe a conclusion is true. An explanation is a statement of the implications of a conclusion's truth. To give an explanation we have to assume our conclusion is true BEFORE we start. An argument follows the form of "If A, then B. A, therefore B". An explantion is A because... To offer an explanation for A, you must already accept that A is true. That doesn't prove A IS true. That's among the most fundamental principles of critical thinking, if you're going to ignore it, then we can't even have rational discourse, because you're withdrawn from logic in order to believe whatever you please.

I attempt to prove the unknown based on the known, not take the unknown and force the world to accomodate it. That's the difference between an argument and an explanation.

You gave valid explanation of why it's possible she failed if your conclusion that she was all powerful is true. You have done absolutely nothing in the way of proving that it is.

By the same logic air is all powerful because we can't live in its abscence. Ultimecia NEVER at ANY point showed that she had the ability to erase space and time, only other things in it. With limits. Limits generated by the power of other sorcersses, which also suggests she did not posess their powers, or a way to reverse them. She did not have strength, she had control. The isntant she lost it, she was overthrown by a group of normal human beings.

[Angel of Iniquity]

Not at all. When I say strength I don't mean physical power. I mean destructive power. Ultimecia's magic is not destructive, nor does she use it destructively.



At no point in time did I ever hear Edea referred to as an ice Sorceress, or Adel as an anti continent Sorceress. You're confusing specialization with limits. Magic is drawn in VIII, you can get your hands on any spell if you know where it comes from. Ultimecia obviously knows where to get her hands on time and space magic.



Not at all. You stated Ultimecia wanted to lose, and was playing a game. If that was the case, she was aware of her own defeat, and that it would undo all she'd done. If she planned for everything to go back to normal and endeavored to make it happen, nobody was ever in danger. Sephiroth's plan isn't over, and he hasn't lost. He continues to threaten people and the world. Ultimecia does not. If that was by her own doing, intentionally, there never was anything to worry about.

Sephiroth also was in stasis mate, by his own choice. He was fine when he came out, strength completely intact. If anything he was stronger than before.



Not at all. A Premise is a reason why we should believe a conclusion is true. An explanation is a statement of the implications of a conclusion's truth. To give an explanation we have to assume our conclusion is true BEFORE we start. An argument follows the form of "If A, then B. A, therefore B". An explantion is A because... To offer an explanation for A, you must already accept that A is true. That doesn't prove A IS true. That's among the most fundamental principles of critical thinking, if you're going to ignore it, then we can't even have rational discourse, because you're withdrawn from logic in order to believe whatever you please.

I attempt to prove the unknown based on the known, not take the unknown and force the world to accomodate it. That's the difference between an argument and an explanation.

You gave valid explanation of why it's possible she failed if your conclusion that she was all powerful is true. You have done absolutely nothing in the way of proving that it is.

By the same logic air is all powerful because we can't live in its abscence. Ultimecia NEVER at ANY point showed that she had the ability to erase space and time, only other things in it. With limits. Limits generated by the power of other sorcersses, which also suggests she did not posess their powers, or a way to reverse them. She did not have strength, she had control. The isntant she lost it, she was overthrown by a group of normal human beings.

...
She was absorbing time and space, more than showing time and space magic is destructive, if nothing exists... then what, more than destructive than what Sepy can do.
I remember that Sephy wasn't in a complete stasis, a stasis that reduced his powers purposely so that argument cannot be applied here, and your definition of critical thinking is off.

We are both Fanboys of our Villians, so we will not be able to apply who is stronger tho I have more than shown why she is superior, but as we are fanboys, you probably shown in your mind why Sephy is superior.

Lets just screw this and go for the other villains cause I'm irritated.

Ex-death, is more than enough to battle Ultimecia as they both have Existence threatening abilities, which should put him on top.

[Heartless Angel]

She was absorbing time and space, more than showing time and space magic is destructive, if nothing exists... then what, more than destructive than what Sepy can do.

She failed to pull off the feat you're attempting to credit her with. She effectively destroyed nothing. Sephiroth can destroy everything in a physical sense. An irreversible undeniable sense. Ultimecia did not, nor do we have reason to believe she could.

I remember that Sephy wasn't in a complete stasis, a stasis that reduced his powers purposely so that argument cannot be applied here, and your definition of critical thinking is off.

He didn't reduce his powers, nothing suggests he did. You're making up points for the sake of refuting me. At no point did I define critical thinking, I defined an argument and an explanation. Fairly accurately as well. Again, if you're going to ignore these principles, we can't have an argument. You have withdrawn from an argument and switched to explanation because you can't make an argument using only the points you have. This is absolutely futile if you won't even acknowledge that.

We are both Fanboys of our Villians, so we will not be able to apply who is stronger tho I have more than shown why she is superior, but as we are fanboys, you probably shown in your mind why Sephy is superior.

My mind is irellevant to the truth of the claims. Your claims have not established evidence or proof. I have attempted to establish evidence, which may or may not be agreed with. That's the right of the reader. You however have simply declared yourself correct and ignored all points that say otherwise. We cannot have an argument if that is what you're going to do.

Lets just screw this and go for the other villains cause I'm irritated.

I said my piece on most of the other villains when evaluating my categories. If you want to agree to disagree, that's fine. But know, that doesn't make your view correct, nor does it give reason for me or anyone else to accept it as such. You're still free to believe whatever you will.

[Angel of Iniquity]

She failed to pull off the feat you're attempting to credit her with. She effectively destroyed nothing. Sephiroth can destroy everything in a physical sense. An irreversible undeniable sense. Ultimecia did not, nor do we have reason to believe she could.



He didn't reduce his powers, nothing suggests he did. You're making up points for the sake of refuting me. At no point did I define critical thinking, I defined an argument and an explanation. Fairly accurately as well. Again, if you're going to ignore these principles, we can't have an argument. You have withdrawn from an argument and switched to explanation because you can't make an argument using only the points you have. This is absolutely futile if you won't even acknowledge that.



My mind is irellevant to the truth of the claims. Your claims have not established evidence or proof. I have attempted to establish evidence, which may or may not be agreed with. That's the right of the reader. You however have simply declared yourself correct and ignored all points that say otherwise. We cannot have an argument if that is what you're going to do.



I said my piece on most of the other villains when evaluating my categories. If you want to agree to disagree, that's fine. But know, that doesn't make your view correct, nor does it give reason for me or anyone else to accept it as such. You're still free to believe whatever you will.

...
Final battle, nothing exists but her and the party, or what's left of it.
That in itself shows that she did more than any other villain in history did.

I don't know what you want me to give, what I gave was as validible as what you said about Sephy, Sephy is not impressive in any means. He isn't even in the top 5 villains in terms of strength or intellect.

I'm not going to argue, but again, show me why he is stronger than Ultimecia other than attempting to "prove" me wrong.
And you misread what I said about stasis, I said he wasn't in an ability reducing stasis.

AGain, Sephy, in all respects and proof, has nothing on most other bosses, though I was hoping for somebody who is a fanboy, despise what you say smarty, to argue me, I was not expecting him to give him false powers that most others had.

[JuzamDjinn]

Thread's getting hostile
It seems to be up in the air regarding who would be the stongest in battle, that is purely opinion and considring the mechanics of what world.

When taking into considering that first and formost final fantasy is about story. I personally think of these games as more like 'video novels' than 'games', I think the better judgement of "strength" should be based on strength of character.

Speaking from this perspective I think the strongest antagonist character is Kefka. He may do things as bit as Kuja, Sephiroth, or Ultimecia, but the things he does hit harder emotionally than anything the others do.
For example think about then Kuja did that thing in Terra(avoiding spoiler), compare that to Cyan's situation, or what he did to Gestal? Some things that hit harder.

I think what really adds strength to Kefka's character is that he is so human.

[Heartless Angel]

And post final battle, everything was fine. Meaning at the end, she acomplished nothing. Zero. Zip. NOTHING. She had potential to do something. Accoridng to your own words, she intentionally did nothing. Nothing is not more than any other villain in history. I can pull the same shit you pulled on Supernova here. Since everything was still there after the battle, that's non canonical. If you'd like to argue that, you also have to grant that you have insufficient cause to believe Supernova is non-canon, in which case Sephiroth DOES have the ability to obliterate entire planets without even using Meteor.

Not really. I stated what IS known about Seph, and what has been said about Seph by the creators. You have given your theories on what it would mean if you were correct. Several of the points you made did not show strength. And most of your premises are unproven in themselves and would require further sub arguments to even give credibility to. By your own admission, you don't know much about the opposition, putting you in a bad place when trying to compare.

a stasis that reduced his powers purposely

If that's not what you meant, you mistyped, not I misread.

I'm not going to argue, but again, show me why he is stronger than Ultimecia other than attempting to "prove" me wrong.

Considering me showing why Sephiroth was stronger would prove you wrong, that's quite impossible. Also you are using a logical fallacy here known as Misplacing the burden of evidence. The fact that I have not proven beyond any shadow of a doubt that you are wrong, does not prove you are correct. It's merely an attempt to shift the task of proving a poitn to me, when it is in fact you making the points that require further evidence to be used.

AGain, Sephy, in all respects and proof, has nothing on most other bosses, though I was hoping for somebody who is a fanboy, despise what you say smarty, to argue me, I was not expecting him to give him false powers that most others had.

Problem being you have not even offered evidence to support that claim. Looks you're attempting to call me a fanboy here, but I can't tell if that's a typo, or just bad grammar. In either case, it's completely irellevant. Who is making the argument has nothing at all to do with its strength. Suggesting this is another logical fallacy known as an Ad Hominem. And that last bit is REALLY sad coming from you, who have thus far offered only explanations contingent on Ultimecia having powers that we don't know she has. EVERYTHING I have stated about Sephiroth thus far has come from the game, or its creators, or logic based on the above. You have asserted That Ultimecia didn't show her power. This assertion alone holds no weight. The creators have plainly stated Sephiroth has never shown his. This is a fact. I have stated that Sephiroth does in fact have the power to destroy he planet, which is more than EVERY villain has done (including Ulti, as I said before, in the end, everything was still there), this is supported by what is said about Meteor IN THE GAME. This is a fact. I have stated Sephiroth DID not lose, not should not have lost as you have done with Ultimecia (with your assertions as the only evidence for this), becuase he DID continue to exist afterwards, this is plainly seen in AC. This is a fact. My evidence is factual, your explanations are arbitrary beliefs and assumptions, which would fail to prove your conclusion even if they were absolutely true.

If you are going to ignore the basics of reasoning, it is not possible for us to hold an argument. If you're alright with that, that's perfectly alright, but stop trying to argue if you're refusing to play by the rules of the game of logic, because it's not going to get us anywhere.

[Angel of Iniquity]

And post final battle, everything was fine. Meaning at the end, she acomplished nothing. Zero. Zip. NOTHING. She had potential to do something. Accoridng to your own words, she intentionally did nothing. Nothing is not more than any other villain in history. I can pull the same shit you pulled on Supernova here. Since everything was still there after the battle, that's non canonical. If you'd like to argue that, you also have to grant that you have insufficient cause to believe Supernova is non-canon, in which case Sephiroth DOES have the ability to obliterate entire planets without even using Meteor.

Not really. I stated what IS known about Seph, and what has been said about Seph by the creators. You have given your theories on what it would mean if you were correct. Several of the points you made did not show strength. And most of your premises are unproven in themselves and would require further sub arguments to even give credibility to. By your own admission, you don't know much about the opposition, putting you in a bad place when trying to compare.



If that's not what you meant, you mistyped, not I misread.



Considering me showing why Sephiroth was stronger would prove you wrong, that's quite impossible. Also you are using a logical fallacy here known as Misplacing the burden of evidence. The fact that I have not proven beyond any shadow of a doubt that you are wrong, does not prove you are correct. It's merely an attempt to shift the task of proving a poitn to me, when it is in fact you making the points that require further evidence to be used.



Problem being you have not even offered evidence to support that claim. Looks you're attempting to call me a fanboy here, but I can't tell if that's a typo, or just bad grammar. In either case, it's completely irellevant. Who is making the argument has nothing at all to do with its strength. Suggesting this is another logical fallacy known as an Ad Hominem. And that last bit is REALLY sad coming from you, who have thus far offered only explanations contingent on Ultimecia having powers that we don't know she has. EVERYTHING I have stated about Sephiroth thus far has come from the game, or its creators, or logic based on the above. You have asserted That Ultimecia didn't show her power. This assertion alone holds no weight. The creators have plainly stated Sephiroth has never shown his. This is a fact. I have stated that Sephiroth does in fact have the power to destroy he planet, which is more than EVERY villain has done (including Ulti, as I said before, in the end, everything was still there), this is supported by what is said about Meteor IN THE GAME. This is a fact. I have stated Sephiroth DID not lose, not should not have lost as you have done with Ultimecia (with your assertions as the only evidence for this), becuase he DID continue to exist afterwards, this is plainly seen in AC. This is a fact. My evidence is factual, your explanations are arbitrary beliefs and assumptions, which would fail to prove your conclusion even if they were absolutely true.

If you are going to ignore the basics of reasoning, it is not possible for us to hold an argument. If you're alright with that, that's perfectly alright, but stop trying to argue if you're refusing to play by the rules of the game of logic, because it's not going to get us anywhere.

Okay, I was talking a little angry from outside forces and brought it here lol.
Let me reiterate everything I said. I will use in game facts. If this one doesn't show her power, I will come from a different angle.

Time compression was happening more than non-canonical. After she was killed, Time compression regressed back into normality so it was Highly canonical.
I said that during the last battle she may have, not before hand thought about it. Plus I was giving reasons why she may have died, ya know, making up for the BS square seems to have in killing the main baddies.

Time compression was her own magic spell, hers. Not something elses like the materia or W/e, it was her spell.
If you remember, in the last battle, things seemed to progress strongly into T/C, being the battle field with Griever, unto the final battle with Ultimecia in a Negative time space, the only possible time. The last battles field was Cannon.

Again I can't stress enough that Ultimecia has Time and Space, stronger than most other powers, next to death and the void. Sephy has... I don't know, I need help, so I really wish you would tell me, from the game.
And post time battle, everything was mid Time compression. Meaning things weren't right. She completed Time compression as the last battle commenced which allowed her the last form, she was then trying to absorb existence.

Power > Ultimecia
Power is the ability to change ones surroundings... Time surrounds us all...
Ultimecia manipulates and controls it... Absolute final power.

Disdaining Ulty's power doesn't show Sephiroths superiourity which is why I need his Pro's and Con's.

[T.G. Oskar]

Again, no, a nation is nothing compared to What Seph can do. He can, and does blow up stars with math. You know, starts. They're hundreds or thousands of times larger than entire planets, which seven continents are a minority of. Star is much much larger than planet, and requires much more to destroy. So blowing up a nation with Adel's power is absolutely not a greater acomplishment than blowing up a star with math, or having the power to annihilate an entire planet with Meteor. It's not even close lol. Kuja destroyed everything on the face of an entire planet with one spell, also putting Adel's one nation to shame.

Erm...whenever I wish to define what might be Sephiroth's total power, I tend to ignore Supernova, usually as much as I ignore anything over Mega Flare when speaking about Bahamut, or Eden's weird super-move, or SRW's Shin Neo Granzon's Prototype Degenerative Cannon, or Golden Sun's Iris' "send my enemy into the sun and let it explode while healing everyone". I could claim that as a psychic attack (perhaps not the Prototype Degenerative Cannon, but it's SRW so it rarely makes any sense; aside that, pretty much everything else in that list) made pretty only to make it impressive. If Sephy could really extinguish starts with Supernova, then the Planet would have perished, period.

Compare Illusion Magic from FFTA and FFTA2. Showy, expressive, deals a reasonable amount of damage to all enemies within area, but it's essentially a huge illusion.

Even if that happened, I still wouldn't be surprised; blame that on seeing huge maces blowing up stuff, a single mech destroying an entire Universe out of Critical Existence Failure, and mechas throwing galaxies at each other.

In fact, the idea of Supernova as a psychic attack (as in, affecting the psyche of the enemy while unleashing a gravitational attack) seems a bit more plausible, given that mechanically Supernova is a Gravity attack, which has the usual implication of being a percentage-type damage. To compare: Gravity usually deals 25% of maximum HP damage (max damage of 9999), Gravity 2/Graviga/Demi usually deals 50%, Supernova deals around 60%-75% max HP damage, and Giga-Graviton (Sin's ultimate attack) deals Instant Death and Non-Standard Game Over on anything within proximity (assuming a radius of the entire Calm Lands). Your username deals Max HP - 1 damage, so the enemy usually lands with 1 HP, but Kefka and Ultimecia also do that, and both Ultimecia and Kefka have a multiple-target version IIRC.

Aside from that little statement, you might resume your argument as to Sephiroth's destructive power. Honestly, I believe the argument of how Sephy had the ability to unleash full damage with Meteor has more support than that of Supernova being an actual attack that actually destroys stars...with a beam of light, not calculus. I mean, are you suggesting Sephy knows how to divide by zero?

[Heartless Angel]

MUCH better, these are actual arguments.

Time compression was happening more than non-canonical. After she was killed, Time compression regressed back into normality so it was Highly canonical.

THIS is what serously undermines Ultimecia. Destruction is absolute. Time compression was fleeting. In theory, she did have access to the ultimate power. It was Ultimecia herself that was inadequate. She had one of the most pwoerful weapons there is, but she herself was too weak to wield it effectively. There were those immune to this weapon, which forced her to fight without it, which she did, and lost. She had geat power, but it was not absolute, another power opposed it, and she was incapable of winning without that power's advantage.

Now I'm going to do a little physics buttocks pulling, so bear with me. The definition of power is the rate at which one does work. Work being force applied over a distance. So in a sense, your definition that it's the ability to change your surrounding is accurate. If you lift a 1000N object 1 Meter, you have applies a force of 1000N for 1 meter, you have done 1000 Joules of work. If you lift the same object 10 meters, and then put it back down. You have applied the same force, for an even greater length of time, but in the end the ditance was 0. You did 0 joules of work. No matter what ammount of time you spent, or how heavy the object you lifted and put back down was, 0 joules of work means 0 power. Since in the end, she changed nothing, her power by definition was 0. Now I know we're not talking about power in this sense, but this is kinda how I see it. in the end, she acomplished nothing. She may have made it to the finish line faster than anyone else in the race, but she didn't cross the line, so that doesn't count for anything. Her power was completely contingent on her winning, but she didn't win.
------

Now as per request, evidence of Sephiroth's power.

• First class Soldier. This means he has proven himself to be stronger than genetically modified humans. This in itself doesn't show tremendous power I understand, but I'll build up as I go here, so bear with me.
• Killed 10,000 Wutai Soldiers singlehandedly. This isn't by means of magic or device. This is what he can do with his own two hands. This was pre-Jenova, pre-evil, pre-black materia. Ten THOUSAND armed, trained men, lost in a 10,000 on one fight. We don't know how many people it took to seal Adel, but it would seem Sephiroth was already stronger than she was even before he became a villain.
• He has access to Black Materia. Meteor. The ULTIMATE Destructive magic as it is refrred to in the game. It is stated that Meteor is capable of DESTROYING the planet. Not damaging it. Not leaving a nasty lookin' crater, not coming close to destroying it but then leaving it unharmed. DESTROYING it. Sephiroth's power is required here, not the Materia's alone. If you give a level 1 Ultima Materia, firstly he won't have the MP to cast it. Secondly, his low magic will have even such a high class spell hitting 100s. For magic to have that kind of power, the mage has to have that kind of power, not just the spell or the materia. So this is testament to Sephiroth's own power.
• The planet itself considered him a threat, which is why it awakened the Weapons. So if you say he's not a threat to the world, the world would beg to differ.
• He controls Jenova, a lifeform that either cannot die, or can continue to be manipulated after death. Either way, he was capable of using this to create replicas of his own body, and use it as a giant meat shield. A man who can take down 10,000 people alone can fight you without even presenting a real target.
• It is stated BY the creators, that Sephiroth is the strongest thing in the world of FFVII. The world of VII contains at least one known God. This means Sephiroth is greater than at least one God, Zack, Cloud, The dead Ancient, everything.
• His will alone was sufficient to suppress Holy, the ULTIMATE white magic up until his 'defeat' at the end of the game.
• He was able to suspend the entire party in midair and make them feel as though they were being torn apart. They were helpless. There was nothing they could do to stop him. Had he wanted to kill the party, that would've been it. No boss fight, no happy ending, you just die. It is a known FACT that he chose not to end your lives.
• Safer Sephiroth has acess to magic like Supernova without any materia at all. I'd say Supernova is canon, but not a permant destruction. Seems to me like a space/time spell primarily for the purpose of making you shit yourselves. I could be wrong, so consider this one weak evidence.
• He is Immortal. This is the big one. There is no 'so close but then lost' for Sephiroth. They ultimately failed to defeat him. He's still alive, will intact and capable of doing pretty much whatever the **** he wants now. Unlike ALL other villains in history, he did not lose. Now I go back to the definition of power. His time never ends. He can continue to do all he desires, change his world forever as he sees fit. Any time is infinitismal to him, his true 'power' is therefore immeasurable.
• The last nails in the coffin, it is stated by the creators, that in spite of all this power, we NEVER saw his best. He had all this and more.
• He did not reach his potential. Not only did he not show his true natual power, but he didn't absorb the lifestream for more of it. The entire planet's energy on top of what he already had. Can you even fathom how much power that is? I can't.

[Angel of Iniquity]

MUCH better, these are actual arguments.



THIS is what serously undermines Ultimecia. Destruction is absolute. Time compression was fleeting. In theory, she did have access to the ultimate power. It was Ultimecia herself that was inadequate. She had one of the most pwoerful weapons there is, but she herself was too weak to wield it effectively. There were those immune to this weapon, which forced her to fight without it, which she did, and lost. She had geat power, but it was not absolute, another power opposed it, and she was incapable of winning without that power's advantage.

Now I'm going to do a little physics buttocks pulling, so bear with me. The definition of power is the rate at which one does work. Work being force applied over a distance. So in a sense, your definition that it's the ability to change your surrounding is accurate. If you lift a 1000N object 1 Meter, you have applies a force of 1000N for 1 meter, you have done 1000 Joules of work. If you lift the same object 10 meters, and then put it back down. You have applied the same force, for an even greater length of time, but in the end the ditance was 0. You did 0 joules of work. No matter what ammount of time you spent, or how heavy the object you lifted and put back down was, 0 joules of work means 0 power. Since in the end, she changed nothing, her power by definition was 0. Now I know we're not talking about power in this sense, but this is kinda how I see it. in the end, she acomplished nothing. She may have made it to the finish line faster than anyone else in the race, but she didn't cross the line, so that doesn't count for anything. Her power was completely contingent on her winning, but she didn't win.
------

In that comparative, that means that Sin, Kefka, and many other villians had no power, due to the fact that everything eventually returns it's order after time.

[/QUOTE][*]Killed 10,000 Wutai Soldiers singlehandedly. This isn't by means of magic or device. This is what he can do with his own two hands. This was pre-Jenova, pre-evil, pre-black materia. Ten THOUSAND armed, trained men, lost in a 10,000 on one fight. We don't know how many people it took to seal Adel, but it would seem Sephiroth was already stronger than she was even before he became a villain.[/QUOTE]

From what I remember, Sephiroth was never a normal human, he was genetically engineered by hojo, meaning he has above average powers, but again we never find out the extant of the wutai's powers or how long it took.
And 1 person tricked Adel, Adel wasn't the smartest due to her ego. And an entire nation with a thought may show more power, but again, power without intelligence is lost ability to me.

[/QUOTE][*]He has access to Black Materia. Meteor. The ULTIMATE Destructive magic as it is refrred to in the game. It is stated that Meteor is capable of DESTROYING the planet. Not damaging it. Not leaving a nasty lookin' crater, not coming close to destroying it but then leaving it unharmed. DESTROYING it. Sephiroth's power is required here, not the Materia's alone. If you give a level 1 Ultima Materia, firstly he won't have the MP to cast it. Secondly, his low magic will have even such a high class spell hitting 100s. For magic to have that kind of power, the mage has to have that kind of power, not just the spell or the materia. So this is testament to Sephiroth's own power.
[/QUOTE]

Why did he want to summon meteo? I honestly don't know lol
WHy not use his own prowess if he was that powerful?

[/QUOTE][*]It is stated BY the creators, that Sephiroth is the strongest thing in the world of FFVII. The world of VII contains at least one known God. This means Sephiroth is greater than at least one God, Zack, Cloud, The dead Ancient, everything.[/QUOTE]

That is true, but the potential of the goddess is unknown in reality, for a goddess should not be bested by any human ...*cough* zack *cough*

[/QUOTE][*]He was able to suspend the entire party in midair and make them feel as though they were being torn apart. They were helpless. There was nothing they could do to stop him. Had he wanted to kill the party, that would've been it. No boss fight, no happy ending, you just die. It is a known FACT that he chose not to end your lives.
[/QUOTE]

This brings in to question his intelligence. Was he cocky? Was he a megalomaniac? Or was it a pure underestimation of the party, which wouldn't give him any credibility to his intellect

[/QUOTE][*]Safer Sephiroth has acess to magic like Supernova without any materia at all. I'd say Supernova is canon, but not a permant destruction. Seems to me like a space/time spell primarily for the purpose of making you shit yourselves. I could be wrong, so consider this one weak evidence.
[/QUOTE]

I agree with you about a Time/space spell, kinda on terms with Ultimecias Great attractor, 3 planets and an asteroid and the battle plain is still present, and since ulty is time/space witch... Your theory makes sense, as does the other posters gravity explanation.

[/QUOTE][*]He is Immortal. This is the big one. There is no 'so close but then lost' for Sephiroth. They ultimately failed to defeat him. He's still alive, will intact and capable of doing pretty much whatever the **** he wants now. Unlike ALL other villains in history, he did not lose. Now I go back to the definition of power. His time never ends. He can continue to do all he desires, change his world forever as he sees fit. Any time is infinitismal to him, his true 'power' is therefore immeasurable.
[/QUOTE]

Immortality is the unableness(neologism) to die, unable to die, but if you were to remove the life-stream, would he still be able to die? I mean, I don't know the extant of the Lifestream from my short play-through of FF7, so I can't really comment here.

[/QUOTE][*]The last nails in the coffin, it is stated by the creators, that in spite of all this power, we NEVER saw his best. He had all this and more.[*]He did not reach his potential. Not only did he not show his true natual power, but he didn't absorb the lifestream for more of it. The entire planet's energy on top of what he already had. Can you even fathom how much power that is? I can't.
[/QUOTE]

Same with other Final bosses in respect. I understand about the PIS(what does that mean anyways? o.o). They also stated that Ultimecia didn't show max power, without the need of an awesome Cgi movie (not fair).

Hey, I'm sorry if I do not know how to argue, or have an disagreement casually, but that's because out of most people I know, I have the superior intellect, I really don't think with my potential cause I don't need to so I get angry quickly when somebody also shows intellectual prowess so...
*twitch* S--s-s-*twitch* Sorry...*twitch*

OH... does Sephy have any hyper awesome Emoticons?
No! SO ULTY WINS!!!!


___________________
` ---,-( ^_^; )-,---`

[Heartless Angel]

In that comparative, that means that Sin, Kefka, and many other villians had no power, due to the fact that everything eventually returns it's order after time.

In a way, yes. True power is power that lasts. No power means anything when you're dead and all you've done is undone. In this regard, Ultimecia was particulary 'powerless'. Becuase all of her damage was undone the moment she died. With villains like Kuja and Kefka, it took a long time to fix what they destroyed, and lives are irreplacable. Sephiroth killed many, reshaped the world, and is still aorund to do more.

From what I remember, Sephiroth was never a normal human, he was genetically engineered by hojo, meaning he has above average powers, but again we never find out the extant of the wutai's powers or how long it took.
And 1 person tricked Adel, Adel wasn't the smartest due to her ego. And an entire nation with a thought may show more power, but again, power without intelligence is lost ability to me.

Sephiroth is semi-human I guess would be a good way to put it. He was concieved as a normal human, and injected with Jenova cells while still in the womb. He's naturally stronger tha any man, and any Soldier treated with mako.

In this particular case time isn't so much an issue. I was mainly using the time thing to get the lasting power point out. We also don't know the precise time it took Kuja to wreck aplanet, or Adel to wreck a continent, but we know it takes power. Power without intelligence can be very useful. A wiseman once said, If brute force fails, you're not using enough of it. This is why we don't see too much manipulation in Sephiroth's plans. He didn't need it. He wanted something dead, he killed them. He wanted something taken, he took it.

Why did he want to summon meteo? I honestly don't know lol
WHy not use his own prowess if he was that powerful?

He wanted Meteor to damage (not destroy, just damage) the planet, so that it would gather all of its energy to one place to heal itself, where he planned to absorb it. He used Meteor for the same reason a man uses a sword. Cutting people in half with your bare hands takes alot longer, no matter how strong you are lol.

That is true, but the potential of the goddess is unknown in reality, for a goddess should not be bested by any human ...*cough* zack *cough*

Ah, but he's not any human, he's a badass. Sephiroth moreso.

Immortality is the unableness(neologism) to die, unable to die, but if you were to remove the life-stream, would he still be able to die? I mean, I don't know the extant of the Lifestream from my short play-through of FF7, so I can't really comment here.

To remove the lifestream is to remove all life. As of yet, I'm unaware how this could be acomplished, but I suppose in theory if you somehow killed raw all of the planet's life energy, you would kill Seph. Though I'm fairly certain this is impossible, since when killed, your life energy returns to the lifestream... When it omes time for the planet to die, Omega Weapon appears and takes the Lifestream to a new planet. So even when the world dies, Seph lives on.

Same with other Final bosses in respect. I understand about the PIS(what does that mean anyways? o.o). They also stated that Ultimecia didn't show max power, without the need of an awesome Cgi movie (not fair).

PIS means Plot Induced Stupidity in most cases, I've also heard power increased state, but not often. In either case, it's usually used when talking about comic book fights to describe a scenario in which somebody beat somebody who they shouldn't have had any chance to beat under normal circumstances, either for plot reasons without good means of that person winning, or by throwing the underdog a magical bone that make them 11 bajillion times stronger during that fight for the purpose of them winning. I must say I have never heard Square say Ultimecia held back, if you can dig up a quote saying so, I can treat that as evidence.

OH... does Sephy have any hyper awesome Emoticons?
No! SO ULTY WINS!!!!


___________________
` ---,-( ^_^; )-,---`

[T.G. Oskar]

Now I'm going to do a little physics buttocks pulling, so bear with me. The definition of power is the rate at which one does work. Work being force applied over a distance. So in a sense, your definition that it's the ability to change your surrounding is accurate. If you lift a 1000N object 1 Meter, you have applies a force of 1000N for 1 meter, you have done 1000 Joules of work. If you lift the same object 10 meters, and then put it back down. You have applied the same force, for an even greater length of time, but in the end the ditance was 0. You did 0 joules of work. No matter what ammount of time you spent, or how heavy the object you lifted and put back down was, 0 joules of work means 0 power. Since in the end, she changed nothing, her power by definition was 0. Now I know we're not talking about power in this sense, but this is kinda how I see it. in the end, she acomplished nothing. She may have made it to the finish line faster than anyone else in the race, but she didn't cross the line, so that doesn't count for anything. Her power was completely contingent on her winning, but she didn't win.

On that regard, it depends on what exactly did Sephiroth wanted to do. Because if what he wanted was absolute power, he didn't. Neither did he managed to become a god ruling over the Planet (consider that if he did, Aeris wouldn't have had the power to stop him), as his original plan was. So he also failed to reach the fulfillment of his plan, even though he was close. If what's suggested by On the Way to a Smile is true, Sephiroth is actually fighting to prevent being dissolved into the Lifestream as every other spirit.

That also tries to undermine the influence of Aeris' power, but I'll leave it at that; for all the destructive power of villains, usually the greatest power is Creation.

Also; wasn't part of his plan to use the Planet as a vehicle to "find the Promised Land"? Because that was part of his plan which wasn't fulfilled, IIRC.

Now as per request, evidence of Sephiroth's power.

• First class Soldier. This means he has proven himself to be stronger than genetically modified humans. This in itself doesn't show tremendous power I understand, but I'll build up as I go here, so bear with me.
• Killed 10,000 Wutai Soldiers singlehandedly. This isn't by means of magic or device. This is what he can do with his own two hands. This was pre-Jenova, pre-evil, pre-black materia. Ten THOUSAND armed, trained men, lost in a 10,000 on one fight. We don't know how many people it took to seal Adel, but it would seem Sephiroth was already stronger than she was even before he became a villain.
• He has access to Black Materia. Meteor. The ULTIMATE Destructive magic as it is refrred to in the game. It is stated that Meteor is capable of DESTROYING the planet. Not damaging it. Not leaving a nasty lookin' crater, not coming close to destroying it but then leaving it unharmed. DESTROYING it. Sephiroth's power is required here, not the Materia's alone. If you give a level 1 Ultima Materia, firstly he won't have the MP to cast it. Secondly, his low magic will have even such a high class spell hitting 100s. For magic to have that kind of power, the mage has to have that kind of power, not just the spell or the materia. So this is testament to Sephiroth's own power.
• The planet itself considered him a threat, which is why it awakened the Weapons. So if you say he's not a threat to the world, the world would beg to differ.
• He controls Jenova, a lifeform that either cannot die, or can continue to be manipulated after death. Either way, he was capable of using this to create replicas of his own body, and use it as a giant meat shield. A man who can take down 10,000 people alone can fight you without even presenting a real target.
• It is stated BY the creators, that Sephiroth is the strongest thing in the world of FFVII. The world of VII contains at least one known God. This means Sephiroth is greater than at least one God, Zack, Cloud, The dead Ancient, everything.
• His will alone was sufficient to suppress Holy, the ULTIMATE white magic up until his 'defeat' at the end of the game.
• He was able to suspend the entire party in midair and make them feel as though they were being torn apart. They were helpless. There was nothing they could do to stop him. Had he wanted to kill the party, that would've been it. No boss fight, no happy ending, you just die. It is a known FACT that he chose not to end your lives.
• Safer Sephiroth has acess to magic like Supernova without any materia at all. I'd say Supernova is canon, but not a permant destruction. Seems to me like a space/time spell primarily for the purpose of making you shit yourselves. I could be wrong, so consider this one weak evidence.
• He is Immortal. This is the big one. There is no 'so close but then lost' for Sephiroth. They ultimately failed to defeat him. He's still alive, will intact and capable of doing pretty much whatever the **** he wants now. Unlike ALL other villains in history, he did not lose. Now I go back to the definition of power. His time never ends. He can continue to do all he desires, change his world forever as he sees fit. Any time is infinitismal to him, his true 'power' is therefore immeasurable.
• The last nails in the coffin, it is stated by the creators, that in spite of all this power, we NEVER saw his best. He had all this and more.
• He did not reach his potential. Not only did he not show his true natual power, but he didn't absorb the lifestream for more of it. The entire planet's energy on top of what he already had. Can you even fathom how much power that is? I can't.

• Being a First Class SOLDIER is an artificial statement, if considering that he's the most powerful living being in his world, he would naturally be a First-Class SOLDIER. Genesis and Angeal are also byproducts of similar plans, and naturally they were First Class SOLDIERs. So that's more of a hurdle than an actual badge, considering that the only character who can wear that as a badge of honor is Zack, one of the only few "genetically modified humans" to achieve that status, without being the byproduct of an experiment. Mostly a rhetorical answer, since what it does is state that he's more powerful than the elite soldier, but still leaves the Genesis/Angeal part. A better statement would have been "Sephiroth is proven to be stronger and deadlier than Genesis and Angeal, both warriors of equal rank and of similar super-soldier projects".
• Question: did Sephiroth used a standard issue 1st Class SOLDIER weapon when he slew those 10,000 Wutai soldiers? Do not neglect the fact that he wields a definitely lethal weapon, the Masamune (though I would have called it the Muramasa, personally, given that it's a hint of irony given the fables behind the legendary sword). You may claim one thing, though: to wield the Masamune means to have great finesse. This is because, regardless of the strength you might possess, unless the weapon is specifically made to work in that way, the insane loss of balance would be enough to leave you defenseless. Believe me; the usual technique to wield a real world two-handed sword requires either wide swings or holding it through the lower part of the edge (where it connects with the tang and the hilt guard; generally swords made to be used as thrusters had a leather cover called a "ricasso" meant to be used as an extended pommel), and wide swings cannot be done in such a way you can restate your stance, leaving you wide open to counterattack. What this represents is that he has enough finesse and strength to wield a weapon nearly one and a half times his size (and IIRC he's pretty tall) without losing his stance, and be capable of counter-attacking and parrying as if he had a rapier. Heartless, that's not power; that's technique and endurance, which are entirely different. Which leads me to think he probably used Materia or something, or Wutai soldiers were pretty stupid to face him on waves without at least attempting supplementary tactics. Oh, and also: Law of Conservation of Ninjutsu. Works every single time.
• Erm...good point, except you shouldn't use mechanics in that way. Supernova is fair play because it's an in-game attack, much like Kefka's Forsaken or Necron/Exdeath's Grand Cross (which is slightly better because Grand Cross causes status effects, which make a dent on the enemy). Meteor is an in-game event, comparable to...say, Grand Staff on Lost Odyssey (which allows the spellcaster to magnify his power a thousandfold, causing a high-level fire spell to become a meteor of magma); it runs on power of plot, meaning mechanics don't work with anything. At best, what you can extrapolate from that was that Sephiroth had the minimum power potential to summon Meteor, but you can't use it as a gauge to determine his power. Thus, I wouldn't use "able to summon Meteor" as a gauge of his true power potential, though I can agree it shows the potential to invoke a deadly destructive spell. If so, Aeris (by the act of summoning Holy, a spell which by definition should have an equal amount of power as Meteor, by herself) could summon Meteor as well, making her comparable (not superior, which isn't what's argued) in terms of magic power.
• Meteor is a threat. Sephiroth is the summoner. What's easier to kill, the summoned entity (which, as shown by the Huge Materia rocket) cannot be destroyed except by Holy, or the summoner whom might be using all of his strength to summon it? Evidently, if Sephiroth (not Meteor) was a threat, the Weapons would have activated at the very moment he showed signs of activity, no? And I meant more activity; the Weapons would have been summoned at the moment the Black Materia was out of its temple, for example. This, though, has a link to the first thing, and what I believe would be a stronger argument at his favor; I'll detail at the end of the list.
• Jenova, Jenova, Jenova... That's opening a can of worms. But, in order to make the story short: think if Jenova actually resisted. The only one whom really attempted to resist Sephy was Cloud, and we both know he wasn't the most capable to do so. Had Jenova actually resisted, probably Sephy's will would have been eroded or a great battle of minds would have emerged; however, what I could extrapolate from what I know is that Jenova simply decided that "her son's" plan was pretty much what she wanted, and decided to let go. You can definitely extrapolate that Sephy has his mother's ability to exert influence over other people infected with Jenova cells, but there's no sign that Jenova actually resisted the influence, so you can't claim that such a manipulation wasn't an easy feat.
• I'll answer about Holy later enough, but as an advancement to the premise: you can effectively argue that Sephy was multitasking. Keep that in mind, because I feel that the argument could have been better if separate.
• Think about this move, and think later about Supernova. Or think about Neo Bahamut and Bahamut-ZERO. All three have abilities that attest to either large scale system destruction, disintegrating a chunk of earth that was levitated (and given the size, you should expect a nice crater), and a nuclear explosion. If they were real, you'd see craters, scorched earth, and the Planet being destroyed. Now, this isn't trying to delve into mechanics; plot-wise, neither of these powers actually has an effect on the Planet; by most, they behave like the Illusion Magic effects from FF Tactics Advanced/A2. By the same line of thought, you can argue that his levitation + mind assault move was partly illusory: they were actually being levitated and held in place (which is a pretty impressive show of power), but the mental assault was "illusory" at best. The better way to explain it is "mind-affecting effect", and here I have to use a term from D&D: what you're experiencing is a mental assault, and they collectively failed their resistance anchored upon willpower to the effect, but whether their minds were actually being torn asunder and their bodies actually crushed or if their minds were playing a very elaborate illusion of such an effect cannot be stated; what you have is the experience of the character, but the fact that he could have gone full force with it, or that having their minds actually torn asunder or the mind-affecting effect leaving lasting impressions (catatonia, feeblemindedness) would have been notable. Had Sephy actually done something with their minds, there would be an effect; instead, they engage immediately into battle with the same health and abilities as before. Whether was he lenient or not depends exclusively on his mindset, which we cannot assert at that moment other than "he apparently did a mistake out of hubris". Thus, while I can give the point of the levitation (it is an actual effect) and they were actually held, which is a show of his power, the mental assault cannot be gauged in the same way. For a better explanation of how I visualize what he did, it would be a combined effect of Mass Hold Person + Mass Levitate + Mass Suggestion, with the suggestion being entirely different. The first spell is arguably deadly because he could have just impaled everyone, the other part was mostly for show (because he could have just held them) and the third was mostly mental assault.
• Here I make a comparison with the Joker. In Superman in Planet Joker, the way Superman defeated the Joker was to show him the one thing he was trying to deny himself; so as long as the Batman exists, the Joker would exist, and the fact that he cannot destroy the Batman is his greatest failure (though he made the Batman insane). Now, compare to what Sephy does in Advent Children, and what's suggested in On the Way to a Smile in "Case of the Lifestream - Black" (unless you don't want to deal with the latter as canon), in which he's in apparent real threat of being dissolved into the Lifestream but his rage towards Cloud allows him to retain his willpower. When he goes and resurfaces, the only thing in his mind is to humiliate Cloud, but Omnislash once again wins the day. Now, if what the novella says is true and is considered canon; does that mean that so as long as Cloud lives, Sephy will? So when Cloud dies, Sephy will dissolve, the only tether to his existence dissipating away? The only plausible explanation would be that he used his rage as a rope, one that he didn't need once he reasserted his will, but his fight with Cloud kinda proves otherwise. Then...nothing. And remember; doing nothing is just as bad as being so close and winning, because you actually have the chance to do something and you're actually neglecting to do so; even Genesis, once he reasserted himself, gave signals of actually doing something, and he was for all purposes declared dead and unable to continue, yet he still survives. Arguing through your description of power as applied to immortality, his power is "nil" because after his reemergence he hasn't done anything; he's just there, sleeping if you wish to argue, but doing nothing while at that, which is almost exactly the same as having no power at all.
• The final statement is what pretty much irks me, and a concern I know you've also shown: his confirmation of being "undefeated" by the creators, which suggests he has the full power of plot behind him.

Now, I'll present two points to considerate towards measuring Sephy's full power. The first is his multitasking ability: summoning Meteor requires someone with powers close or greater than that of Aeris, whom was shown to use the antithesis of Meteor which is Holy; controlling Meteor requires a sustained amount of power; controlling Meteor while holding Holy requires nearly twice the amount of power and a great deal of mental prowess; doing all that while fighting the party would be a very hard to debate show of his powers. Compare to Ultimecia which apparently goes through phase 2 of time compression (space compression, if you may) while creating the most powerful GF in existence, WHILE fighting the party. Even if it's not the same degree of power, it IS a demonstration of mental prowess.

The second, and the one that's both the hardest and the easiest to defeat is provided by none other than Yoshinori Kitase himself: he has the power of plot. Period. Power of plot means that whatever you can do, he can do as well, he does better, he does without a minimum of effort because plot demands so. It's the easiest to defeat because "the power of plot", with Karma Houdini on top, makes him a Sue character in my opinion. All villains have the power of plot, but their power is removed when plot dictates; in the case of Sephy, plot dictates he's sleeping at the moment and will remain a big question. Heck, that's the answer to whether I can fathom what would have happened if he had succeeded to become a deity: power of plot with a neat fluffy background. Does that make him THE most powerful villain in all of Square-Enix? That greatly depends on the fuel that "power of plot" has...but certainly, Ulti has also her stuff.

[Angel of Iniquity]

Ahem... T.G stole my reply.

^^
No really though, that was better than what I could have said haha

What I should add is Ultimecia did kill, and killed that lasted I guess. Or if you want to get ahead of ourselves lol... Hmm, not allot though lol
Some trabians from the missle crisis, most galbadians(war of the gardens, inwhich Galbadia is never seen again o.o) and ahh, about it.

[Xanatos]

Again, no, a nation is nothing compared to What Seph can do. He can, and does blow up stars with math. You know, starts. They're hundreds or thousands of times larger than entire planets, which seven continents are a minority of. Star is much much larger than planet, and requires much more to destroy. So blowing up a nation with Adel's power is absolutely not a greater acomplishment than blowing up a star with math, or having the power to annihilate an entire planet with Meteor. It's not even close lol. Kuja destroyed everything on the face of an entire planet with one spell, also putting Adel's one nation to shame.

Exaggerating a little bit, aren't we.

If he's indeed capable of such feat, than why use Meteor? Critically damaging one planet despite the Lifestream would be, but a child's play. Nevertheless, if you're prepared to cling to it I'll need some kind of proof, though your theory will fall in water as far as I'm concern if you so much as mention SuperNova,

Sephiroth's not capable of performing something of such magnitude as SeperNova despite what many fans may think. It's just a flashy animation as many others in Final Fantasy universe, I hardly believe a planet would survive such attack let alone Cloud and rest of the population. Not to mention it would make Sephiroth look stupid for not using part of such immense power instead of meteor.

Seph didn't 'fail' to do more, he simply didn't want to do more. Becoming one with the lifestream was his goal. Blowing up nations for no particular reason is not bennificial to that end.

Considering the power he had, fact that he could afford to fail due to immortality Sephiroth did nothing to little compared to some of the other villains. Now we can argue how much was needed for other villains to accomplish their goals, their opposition, but none of the villains had such convenience as Sephiroth had.

By gaining immortality you state that he accomplished his goal, though not the way he imagined. All facts indicate that he was immortal way before he summoned the meteor, to be honest he doesn't look like a guy who would gamble everything in fist fight with Cloud, which means his goal during the game was to obtain higher power. Did he fail, yes he did. Now it's another pair of sleeves that unlike many other villains he has another shoot, which he threw away as seen in Advent Children, but during the main event of FF VII he failed to accomplish his goal, may it be because he didn't care or any other reason, it's not important, he failed may you like it or not.

[Heartless Angel]

Oi, I got's lots of writing to do now... too lazy to disect these posts into nice quote boxes lol.


I can't say with any certainty that Zack was the only Non Jenova Project first class. I don't know in the case of Sephiroth, but we know just from what we learn of Genesis' early life that they were never just invited to Shinra to be first class soldiers. It stands to reason that they had to climb the ladder just like everyone else, though this was significantly easier for them, it does still imply that they had military dicipline and combat skills well above anyone else. Though not a particularly impressive feat in terms of supervillains, it does say something. Like I said, I started small and worked my way up lol.

I would call finese and skill a way of generating 'power'. In the same way a simple machine does work. Same goes for endurance. These both show that his body is more durable, and stronger than that of a normal person, or even a mako enhanced Soldier. Sephiroth also doesn't stick strictly to close combat or spells I've seen materia for. He flings magical sword waves of death, and chops up buildings like they were made of paper. There's some serious strength behind that blade. Also, I agree, I would've given him a Muramasa if it were my call, considering he was the one who made the evil swords that killed the shit out of everything, while Masamune made the nice happy swords that only killed the shit out of some things. But then that could be an intended device to fruther show that Sephiroth believed he was the one playing the good guy.

For it to be known that Meteor was capable of destroying worlds, that means soebody had to posess the pwoer to use it at that level, true? And it is stated that Sephiroth is the strongest being in FFVII's world, which would seem to me anyways to suggest he was capable of using it at least that well if not better.

Actually my memory may be a bit faulty here, but if memory serves, the Weapons were activated right when the real Sephiroth became active. This is likely because a Jenova powered meatshield lacked Sephiroth's ability, and couldn't use Meteor itself.

I was more stating the Jenova bit as another weapon he posessed which made him a threat moreso than an acomplishment. I can't imagine Jenova struggled too much.

As I said, that was fairly weak evidence on my part, as there are other theories which explain the move just as well. As I also stated before, an explanation as a premise at best makes a conclusion possible, so this isn't a key point really worth my fighting for.

In this regard I must say Seph is a bit like Sin. He possesses incredible power, the ability to use them, but no desire to on any major scale. His desires seem relatively modest for one with such potential. The key difference here is that unlike Sin, Sephiroth's lack of will to destroy does not limit his ability to do so. Sin doesn't destroy because his 'brain' actively resists destroying the things it knows and loves. Sephiroth simply chooses not to do so. If he wanted to, he would. Nothing prevents him from making that descision and directing his power to that end. We know the power Sephiroth has is more than the power he used. In the case of other villains, we don't have this knowledge, merely (usually) reasonable assumptions to that effect.

His multitasking is definitely a sign of his ability to sustain large ammounts of power. Unfortunately I don't ever recall hearing that Holy was the power coutnerpart of Meteor, just the Ultimate White magic. I would say it's fair to assume the two are power counterparts, but that's not a certainty, so I have to throw out there that in spite of this it's possible he isn't twice as strong as one would need to be to use Meteor. In any case, I think what makes this possible for Sephiroth isn't only that he's stronger than Aerith, but that he's stronger than Holy itself. He can sustain Meteor, Block Holy, control god knows how many forms of Jenova as well as all the n00bs in black, sustain the barrier at the Northern Crater against the Weapons, suspend the party with magic (dear god how much ****ing MP does this guy have?) all at the same time. This is part of why I say he can compete with Kuja Ulti and Kefka as mages, even though he seems like a warrior. Most of his higher ahcievemnts were done with magic moreso than swordplay. Excellent point.

Unlike other villains, his power of plot was never removed for the sake of PIS. It continued to drive him even after his 'defeat'. If we accept that power of plot is indeed the ultimate power, that would seem to suggest Sephiroth is the strongest, because he's the only one who still has it o.O

On to Xanatos

As I acknowledged preivously, what I said about Supernova was an explanation moreso than a premise, at best it makes my conclusion possible. So it's not a point worth me investing too much of my credibility in.

The only "convenience" Sephiroth has is his own strength. The entire planet (both literally and figuratively) conspired against him almost the entire time. If you want to talk convenience, Ultimecia went through 99.9% of her plan in her own time where there was nobody at all to oppose her. Seymour had political support of the entire world and even other Maester's standing up for him. Kuja happened to have the world's stupidest monarch as a scapegoat while he did whatever he wanted. Nobody even had an opportunity to oppose any of these people, that sounds rtaher convenient to me. Poeople tried to oppose Sephiroth. They failed horrifcally because Sephiroth was much more powerful.

Would you not call immortality higher power? He was already the strongest living thing. Only thing you really need after that is immortality.

[Xanatos]

On to Xanatos

As I acknowledged preivously, what I said about Supernova was an explanation moreso than a premise, at best it makes my conclusion possible. So it's not a point worth me investing too much of my credibility in.

The only "convenience" Sephiroth has is his own strength. The entire planet (both literally and figuratively) conspired against him almost the entire time. If you want to talk convenience, Ultimecia went through 99.9% of her plan in her own time where there was nobody at all to oppose her. Seymour had political support of the entire world and even other Maester's standing up for him. Kuja happened to have the world's stupidest monarch as a scapegoat while he did whatever he wanted. Nobody even had an opportunity to oppose any of these people, that sounds rtaher convenient to me. Poeople tried to oppose Sephiroth. They failed horrifcally because Sephiroth was much more powerful.

Would you not call immortality higher power? He was already the strongest living thing. Only thing you really need after that is immortality.

It seems you got the other way around. As I said before, Sephiroth achieved immortality way before he summoned the meteor, I would dare to say at the end of Crisis Core, thus failure was somewhat acceptable, no to mention that he really didn't have opposition as no one could match his power, and even those who were wiling to oppose where busy with Weapons majority of the time. On other hand Kuja couldn't afford to fail, he had to worry about Garland who was superior at one point, Zidane which potential exceeds even Kuja's, and two summoners, class which even Garland was afraid of. Immortality, and strength no man, nation can match, you don't get more convenient than that.

Yes, immortality is certainly higher form of power, God knows how many villains tried to obtain it. But according to Final Fantasy VII there was something even greater, with the power of lifestream Sephiroth would be even stronger, able to travel through universe and pose to be a threat, same way Jenova was before him, now tell me is that what Sephiroth tried and failed to obtain during the events of Final Fantasy VII or maybe I've played the wrong game.

[Heartless Angel]

I don't think He was immortal until the end, but I'll be replaying Crisis soon, followed by VII, so I'll look into that myself.

I define convenience as things going your way. Things went Kuja's way to be sure. Garland could have stopped him, but he didn't. Convenient for Kuja, yes? Zidane could've overpowered him, but didn't learn he had this power until Kuja had already set into motion his plan for more power, convenient for Kuja, yes? Brahne was stupid and did whatever he told her to, and just happened to have a summoner living in her castle, convenient, yes? Things didn't just happen to go Seph's way. He bent things over and made them his bitch. That's not convenience, that's the power to force things to go your way.

Failure would imply that he lst and can no longer achieve that, which is not the case. It's still a work in progress. The only true failure comes when you're no longer able to win, Sephiroth is still able to win. In fact because he is immortal, he can never be made inable to win, and therfore is immune to true failure. He can be delayed, but never stopped.

[Angel of Iniquity]

I don't think He was immortal until the end, but I'll be replaying Crisis soon, followed by VII, so I'll look into that myself.

I define convenience as things going your way. Things went Kuja's way to be sure. Garland could have stopped him, but he didn't. Convenient for Kuja, yes? Zidane could've overpowered him, but didn't learn he had this power until Kuja had already set into motion his plan for more power, convenient for Kuja, yes? Brahne was stupid and did whatever he told her to, and just happened to have a summoner living in her castle, convenient, yes? Things didn't just happen to go Seph's way. He bent things over and made them his bitch. That's not convenience, that's the power to force things to go your way.

Failure would imply that he lst and can no longer achieve that, which is not the case. It's still a work in progress. The only true failure comes when you're no longer able to win, Sephiroth is still able to win. In fact because he is immortal, he can never be made inable to win, and therfore is immune to true failure. He can be delayed, but never stopped.

I would argue the extent of power he actually has during his time in the life-stream. Instead of manipulating the jenova cells, why not reanimate himself to fight cloud in Advent children? Also, Aerith is in the lifestream as well seen from the movie, so, was it only will that enabled them to live forever? I do not know. How did he become immortal? If it was will, I believe if the lifestream were in pther FF's, particulary FF4 and 8, they had strong enough will but than again, I don't know lol

[Xanatos]

I don't think He was immortal until the end, but I'll be replaying Crisis soon, followed by VII, so I'll look into that myself.

I define convenience as things going your way. Things went Kuja's way to be sure. Garland could have stopped him, but he didn't. Convenient for Kuja, yes? Zidane could've overpowered him, but didn't learn he had this power until Kuja had already set into motion his plan for more power, convenient for Kuja, yes? Brahne was stupid and did whatever he told her to, and just happened to have a summoner living in her castle, convenient, yes? Things didn't just happen to go Seph's way. He bent things over and made them his bitch. That's not convenience, that's the power to force things to go your way.

Failure would imply that he lst and can no longer achieve that, which is not the case. It's still a work in progress. The only true failure comes when you're no longer able to win, Sephiroth is still able to win. In fact because he is immortal, he can never be made inable to win, and therfore is immune to true failure. He can be delayed, but never stopped.

I'm not sure myself if he was indeed immortal at the end of Crisis Core, but all the facts indicate that achieved such state way before he summoned the meteor. I hardly believe he was capable of surviving the lifestream, not in condition he was anyways, the first time you get to see the real Sephiroth he was in some kind of crystal stasis with half of his body missing, which means he still might have been in phase of regeneration, thus not being able to face opposition on his own. The biggest fact though is his behavior, as if he didn't care will he fail or succeed, if you ask me he doesn't look like a guy who would gamble everything in fist fight with Cloud without being immortal or at least having a plan B, especially if he was indeed a brilliant tactician.

If he in fact achieved immortality until the very end, then why such behavior, why gamble, the same would also mean that he was far from intelligent, the only thing that explained poor planing, passive behavior, underestimating same opponent several times was the fact that he would have another shoot in case if he fails. I myself never considered him as a brilliant tactitian to begin with. When one man can, and has dealt massive damage to Wutai army, with likes of Angeal and Genesis who may not be on par with Sephiroth, still, their strength can't be overlooked, advanced firepower, and superior army what's, there to tactics, surely the win was but a mere formality.

Garland never intended to stop Kuja as he was needed to achieve his goals, by the time Garland realized that Kuja would betray him it was already too late. Kuja couldn't afford to fail, he didn't have such luxury, nor did he have power to wipe out his opposition right from the start, Sephiroth had both, I guess it's more an advantage than convenience.

Sephiroth is still able to win, true, but that doesn't guarantee that he will do so. As for him being invincible, he failed during the events of Final Fantasy VII, Crisis Core, and Advent Children, what might or might not happen in future is pure speculation, the same way you say he can't be stooped I can state that Cloud will find a way to stop him once and for all. Both statements don't hold water whatsoever. If we're to compare villains, and their achievements than stick to their respective games, Sephiroth failed to achieve his goal during the events of Final Fantasy VII and that's a fact.

[Angel of Iniquity]

I think that's what we should do, stick with their respective games. No movies or spinoffs.

Now that we have some extra info on all the villains, or the more important villains in terms of intellect and power. Shall we compare who would be on top this time with open minds?

[Heartless Angel]

I'll wait until my playthough of the games again before I argue with any more debates of a factual nature, I like to make sure i have the facts before tyring to use them. I'll get back to you on the first few points here with my findings.

Advantages definitely. Power is supposed to give one an advantage.

The statement that Seph can win holds alot more water than the statement that Cloud cna always stop him. Cloud's existance is finite, Sephiroth's is not. Even if Cloud was able to beat him in a fair fight (which by the words of the creators we can infer he can't), Sephiroth could merely wait him to death. Sephiroth has the means to reach his goal, we have perfectly good reason to believe this. We have no reason at all to believe Cloud can stop him, as we know for a matter of fact that Sephiroth is stronger than anyone else in that world.

[Angel of Iniquity]

Okay, now lets post how each one can lose in their perspective, I don't mean like, Kuja can lose in he underestimates, or Palemecia can lose if he makes a mistake, which wouldn't make sense in their personality, I mean real ways they may mess up.

[Xanatos]

The statement that Seph can win holds alot more water than the statement that Cloud cna always stop him. Cloud's existance is finite, Sephiroth's is not. Even if Cloud was able to beat him in a fair fight (which by the words of the creators we can infer he can't), Sephiroth could merely wait him to death. Sephiroth has the means to reach his goal, we have perfectly good reason to believe this. We have no reason at all to believe Cloud can stop him, as we know for a matter of fact that Sephiroth is stronger than anyone else in that world.

True, Sephiroth has means for achieving his goal, in the end those are just but a mere speculations, and I never liked those to be honest. The same way you can foresee Sephiroth's victory I can see his downfall, Cloud doesn't have to be reason for it. An extraterrestrial life such as Jenova, who may not be the only of her kind, may interfere with Sephiroth plans and quite possibly be his demise. It's quite plausible if you think about it, and holds as much water as your theory about Sephiroth wining. You see why I don't like speculations.

[Angel of Iniquity]

True, Sephiroth has means for achieving his goal, in the end those are just but a mere speculations, and I never liked those to be honest. The same way you can foresee Sephiroth's victory I can see his downfall, Cloud doesn't have to be reason for it. An extraterrestrial life such as Jenova, who may not be the only of her kind, may interfere with Sephiroth plans and quite possibly be his demise. It's quite plausible if you think about it, and holds as much water as your theory about Sephiroth wining. You see why I don't like speculations.

He's right, being the desingers are gods in all games, they can do whatever they want in terms of Sephiroth and how he dies.
It is almost certain another movie or something will come out, why give him that much power and nothing to use it? That's Bs, they like Sephiroth probably cause the fanbase and automatically gave him hyper powers AFTER the game ended.
Plus, isn't Vincent technically stronger? Being stronger than omega I would say so.

[Heartless Angel]

Vincent wasn't what beat Omega, Chaos was. And again, it's already been stated, Sephiroth is the strongest in the VII Universe, that means greater than Omega and Chaos. Also stronger than other Jenovas that land on the planet. Unless they have a way to remove law energy from existance, they can't do anything to Seph lol.

[Angel of Iniquity]

Vincent wasn't what beat Omega, Chaos was. And again, it's already been stated, Sephiroth is the strongest in the VII Universe, that means greater than Omega and Chaos. Also stronger than other Jenovas that land on the planet. Unless they have a way to remove law energy from existance, they can't do anything to Seph lol.

I think that's what ticks me off the most.

Okay, he is the most powerful in FF7 existence, but yet he has no claims to that power. Sure we have seen some powerful abilities from him as every other villain, but it doesn't seem from everything I have seen, he is in the top three overall power.

[T.G. Oskar]

I think that's what ticks me off the most.

Okay, he is the most powerful in FF7 existence, but yet he has no claims to that power. Sure we have seen some powerful abilities from him as every other villain, but it doesn't seem from everything I have seen, he is in the top three overall power.

Remember; it's the power of plot. And in that case, I should claim Cloud has even greater power of plot than Sephiroth, because he has stopped him four times (the first was an accident, the second was with the team, the third was in his own mind, and the fourth was on Advent Children), even if he was supposedly struggling and so forth. The power of plot is great on Cloud, I'd say.

For someone who's supposed to be the most powerful, the fact that he simply can't seem to defeat Cloud's plot armor sends some doubts. The fact that the only future mention of the Planet is Dirge of Cerberus and neither of them are mentioned (to my recollection) means no one can truly claim victory.

Vincent wasn't what beat Omega, Chaos was. And again, it's already been stated, Sephiroth is the strongest in the VII Universe, that means greater than Omega and Chaos. Also stronger than other Jenovas that land on the planet. Unless they have a way to remove law energy from existance, they can't do anything to Seph lol.

Law energy? Uh...what do you mean with that? After all, isn't everything eroded by entropy, as the natural state of things is towards disorder (or chaos, but you might have Discordians arguing)?

[Heartless Angel]

Bad typo, that should've read raw energy, as in pure mako. Not sure how I managed to get an L there...