Who is the strongest FF main villain!!

[Angel of Iniquity]

You still don't know difference between power and strength, how cute. Still, no harm in reminding you again, I have time on my hands. Power doesn't equal strength, to demonstrate I'll use an example. A general doesn't have to be strong, but if he commands a powerful army he can do quite a damage, do you see where I'm going with this...

As for Vayne's goal, you're right, his goal was nothing like Ultis, he had a noble goal, though it may not seem that way at first. Those who played the game know that Vayne tended to free nation of Ivalice from clutches of immortal Ocurians, for nation of Ivalice to finally decide their own fate, his methods may be cruel, but necessary it seems. So you see, their goals can't be compared, Ultis victory lasted til her defeat, which wasn't the case with Vayne.

Sin is far from intelligent creature, he attacks randomly, and he proved to be vulnerable to Al Bhed technology, what do you think Vayne's fleet would do to him, Bahamut, Leviathan and such...

Honestly, I'm not going to lie, I was trying to test your knowledge on Vayne so I can learn something new haha, same thing I did to Heartless about Sephy.

You are right in a sense. But I honestly meant power as in... "I can make your head go boom" type of power.
Like, Ulty needed no army because she absorbed Adel and Adel once destroyed an entire army with a simple thought, also showing Ultys immense power.

[Heartless Angel]

Political power's another thing entirely. In that area, I'd have to say Seymour was the most powerful, followed closely by Vayne, Kuja, and Kefka. Though one could reason The Emporer had alot because he was, well... the Emporer... nobody really liked him. People actually wanted to follow Symour and Vayne, and were unaware that Kefka and Kuja were manipulating things

Ultimecia techniclaly did not succeed. She got close, but she failed to create a world in which only she existed, which was her ultimate goal, and in the end, she didn't exist at all. So she got close, but then dove straight into fail. Sephiroth however, DID suceed. Not exactly in the way he'd planned, but he DID become one with the lifestream, and was the only one who never 'lost' in the end. One also must take into consideration what obstacles they had to overcome to reach their goals. Ultimecia had to use a machine to mind**** people while she sat safely in her own time. Not much of a challenge. Least it doesn't sound like one. Sephiroth was actively hunted down by Shinra, the most powerful company in the world, and your party of unbeatable hero archetypes. Holy, and the Planet itself fought against him. And in spite of all of of this, he still ended up merging with the lifestream and becoming immortal. Other villains had it much easier, and still were ultimately beaten. Not Seph.

Kuja was extremely succesful. He had several different plans through the game. Control Brahne, succeeded. Mass produce and sell Black Mages as weapons, suceeded. Kill Gardland and get out from under his rule, succeeded. Destroy planet that pissed him off, suceeded. Destroy crystal to doom humanity, suceeded. The only one who failed there was Necron. And in the end, he came to understand the meaning of life, and wanted to do something menaingful with it, suceeded. He saved Zidane. Not once did Kuja fail. And once again, he met with FAR more opposition than Ultimecia, and perservered anyways.

In terms of success, Ultimecia doesn't sit at the top by any means.

[Imposter]

Just a thought for you all but why don't you just make different categories and then rate the villains in each. From there you can eliminate some and compile a list of top five that excel in all the categories or close to them all. I know people will have different opinions on who should take each category but that'll give you all a reason to debate more.

I actually can't really choose won because I don't know enough about them and don't really carry a strong opinion about a certain one.

[T.G. Oskar]

Unfortnately his potential is pretty much unknown. Though it seems very obvious it's more than what he showed in the last battles, because we know he never showed his max potential, we have no idea what exactly it is.

That's the big question. Sephiroth's power potential (in terms of sheer destroying potential, not careful destructive potential) is a big ???, since it's stated that he's the most powerful thing in the Planet's existence, but his true power is usually never shown. I find that bugging me, mostly because it seems just adding to a character whom was apparently (and tell me if you agree with this or not) was meant to be placed differently. I'll explain with another excerpt from your post:

Either way, he never needed to put his real body in danger to acomplish anything. So, it was either bad planning, underestimating opposition (from the planet moreso than the party), or Square not having a better excuse to make him lose lol. But then, at times it really did seem like he just didn't give a shit. For example, not killing Cloud and Tifa and everyone else at the mako reactor in nibelheim. The guy wiped out 10000 wutai solders alone. One shinra infanty and a 14 year old girl with basic martial arts training wouldn't have lasted 3 seconds if he wanted them dead. Only thing I can see as a reason why that may have been (other than Seph not caring) would be that he was weakened from his fight with Zack. And when he killed Aerith. At that point in the game, Cloud and co. wouldn't have even given him a struggle, but instead of just wiping them all out, he left Jenova, who was beaten with little effort. But then it's also possible that he just didn't consider them a threat, he had a major superiority complex, which could've interfered with his ability to plan out everything. So I certainly can't prove it wasn't just bad planning that lead to his defeat, but as a 1st class Soldier, one can reasonably assume he was a decent tactician. So either his discovery blew his ego so out of proportion that he was blinded by it, or he just didn't give a damn. After VII, it definitely seems like he didn't give a damn. But at that point, he really had no reason to, his will was intact in the neverending lifestream, so he had absolutely nothing to lose there. There's plenty that even I don't know about him, but I suppose that's part of why I like him.

If I recall correctly (clear me if I'm wrong), Sephiroth was the tactician and leader of the offensive against Wutai, probably his last great battle while under Shin-Ra's orders. And he himself obliterated a lot of soldiers, quite probably some of the best out there (though not much can be said of a world whom, by the time FFVII appears, seems to have no armed forces, unlike FFVIII whom had defined armies on a war environment). So he seems to play both "ultra-powerful soldier" and "keen tactician", but his plans seem to incline towards "keen tactician"; his plan of becoming more powerful by fully integrating with the Lifestream couldn't be done by someone with average intellect (or lack of megalomania). Just using the idea of being a keen tactician, you could have had a superb villain. He reminds me a bit of Makoto Shishio rather than Vegeta: one of the greatest warriors in Japan (on Rurouni Kenshin's reality), whom could have won and effectively conquered Japan, but his own ego just crushed him. And both he and the greatest swordsman of Japan, Himura Kenshin, were fighting at their limit. However, Shishio had something that makes him interesting: he knew his limits, and he didn't underestimate Kenshin, up until the final battle in which his ego simply went out of control (like the flames he manipulated), and had he taken control of his emotions he could have ended Kenshin's life in a simple stroke. Heck, IIRC, Shishio never revealed his ougi, and Kenshin's ougi was revealed thanks to Soujiro.

On Sephiroth's case, though, it's the fact that he could do enough with skill, finesse and tactics, but he just has to be physically and magically strong. I personally have the thing that Sephy falls too close to Canon Sue territory, if only because he seems to have no weakness, and in terms of tropes that's a card that must be played very, very carefully (or else, had he a specific weakness that could be exploited, perhaps not everyone would be so polarized). Shishio had a weakness, but you knew he had the upper hand; it was almost a miracle that his ego went out of control, because you knew that Kenshin was, for a lack of a better word, fried. And he was well aware of his weakness, so he could have simply ended that as quick as possible. His hubris, and the fact of how that event shaped pretty much everyone's lives, was something that made him a superb villain. But the thing lies in that he didn't revive; once he was finished (by his own hubris), the story didn't end there.

In Sephy's case, the fact that his story simply refused to end left a bad mouth on the detractors (to which I include myself) because it seemed like coming out of nowhere, instead of a defined part of the story. It's closer to what happened with Palpatine (Episode 6 killed the darn Emperor, but Expanded Universe just couldn't leave him alone, even though Admiral Thrawn was a superb villain) instead of what happened with Sauron (whose end and eventual return was essentially the bind of the story). What left an even worse flavor on the mouth was that his chance at redemption was essentially botched; I saw Advent Children, pretty much on its entirety, including Sephy's battle, and he seemed more like a cameo than a real menace (and made me feel sorry for poor Kadaj, whose IMO got his antagonism taken away, but you may argue that the true villain was Sephy all along and as usual Kadaj was a tool and there would be a foundation for that line of thought in any case).

--

Having said that: has the thread devolved into a "best FF villain" or does "strength" really depend on more factors other than pure destructive power (or the potential to do so?). I think the term has some connotations that need to be measured: how exactly "strong" are we speaking about? Personal, innate power? Maximum power potential? Other sources of power? Utilization of said power (as in, how the individual used that power, whether it was a smart move or just flexing its "muscles")? Being the "strongest" doesn't necessarily mean being the favorite or the best (hence, why I mentioned Ultimecia as the "strongest" if only because she acquired great power and had a glimpse of knowing the means to use it), so please cut some slack and let the river return to its course, lest the thread gets closed because of potential flaming. That goes with you, Odin; both Xanatos and Heartless are posters with carefully developed ideas, with their faves (Kuja and Sephy, respectively) and a strong desire to support them, and very different ways of observing villains, so while they might seem smartalecks, they have their reasons.

[Heartless Angel]

Still not entirely sure what you mean by placed differently there. Could just be that I'm tired, I'll have to have you clarify before I can answer that lol.

He was the leader of his group of Soldiers, who did all of the heavy combat with the large numbers of Wutai forces. I'm not certain whether he was the leader due to tatcical knowledge, or just because he was the ranking officer (and the one that could wipe them out singlehandedly). But he does have the mind of a tactician, and generally seems to be in control of his emotions. Particularly pre-evil, not once did you ever see him lose his cool. Afterwards it's a bit harder to tell if it's his emotions getting the better of him, or just cold logic based on bad information (that Jenova was an ancient and his biological mother). Main reason I don't think it was ego, is just the fact that he never seems to lose his cool. If it was somebody like Kefka or Kuja who made it perfectly obvious when they were pissed off and freaking out, it'd be easier to tell if he lost to his own ego. But it always appears that he's in complete control. Really is difficult to tell with him.

Also, thanks alot, now I want to go watch Kenshin again lol.

They did get him far to close to Canon Sue, which is my one complaint with the story. They created the perfect villain, but failed to implement him in a way where he could still be beaten in a way that made sense. I would rather he had some small weakness that the party managed to exploit rather than just managing to beat the unbeatable for the sake of a cliche happy ending. AC disappointed me, as yet again Seph was beaten when he was clearly in control until Cloud pulled the Deus Ex Machina Omnislash out of his ass, once agan to achieve a happy ending. My complaint with him isn't that he's too perfect, but that he's too perfect to lose in the end anyways. There's got to be a reason for him losing, but it's not one that's easily noticed like it is with any other villain in the series. In this case, the hero winning in the end almost seems like a plot hole in itself, it just doesn't make sense given what we know. It makes my brain itch.
--

I actually tried to answer in terms of the multiple ways 'strongest' could be taken, not sure where, but that train of though must've derailed somewhere, since here I am preaching the faith of the Church of the One Winged Angel of Latter Day Summons again. Oh well...

[T.G. Oskar]

Still not entirely sure what you mean by placed differently there. Could just be that I'm tired, I'll have to have you clarify before I can answer that lol.

The best way I can explain it would be: instead of having Palpatine or Apocalypse or even Sauron (three individuals whom are both immensely powerful and impossibly smart), they showed him like, say, David Xanatos (not the most powerful individual in terms of physical power but both impossibly smart and immensely rich) or Adrian Veldt/Ozymandias (someone who wasn't the most powerful, given that the story shows Dr. Manhattan is far more powerful, but that toyed with the really powerful ones due to his impressive intellect). The type of villain that was presented was not someone who was originally powerful, but the type of villain who doesn't need immense power after all, and whose mind is far deadlier a weapon than any nuclear bomb in existence.

[Leon]

Kuja, now there's really ntohing you can take away here. Trance was his own power. Only thing you can really take away is necron, who failed anyways. Kuja I'd say is probbly on par with Zemus (without being weakened by light crystal

As much as I'd hate to say something against my favorite villain....I replayed FFIX recently, and paid close attention to his plans. Trance wasn't really his own power, because he absorbed the souls of Terra from the Invincible, which also had drawn Brahne's soul after she died. He even admitted once that he couldn't match Garland's powers, which is why he came up with that master plan of his in the first place. It all hatched in the Gulug mountain, where he concluded he just needed a powerful soul even if it wasn't his own.

I also want to say that, although he destroyed Terra, he didn't blow the entire planet up. When you confront him in the Crystal World, he said that Terra's assimilation with Gaia had already begun. Now how can a planet assimilate anything if it's blown up?

With that said, he's still powerful without Trance as he took that blast from Bahamut with the only injury being a cut on his head. To compare this, Bahamut is the same creature who took down an entire Alexandrian fleet with with a few shots of Mega Flare. But if you take everything but his own powers away, Kuja's still a formidable foe, but is weaker than Garland (FFIX one).

[Heartless Angel]

The best way I can explain it would be: instead of having Palpatine or Apocalypse or even Sauron (three individuals whom are both immensely powerful and impossibly smart), they showed him like, say, David Xanatos (not the most powerful individual in terms of physical power but both impossibly smart and immensely rich) or Adrian Veldt/Ozymandias (someone who wasn't the most powerful, given that the story shows Dr. Manhattan is far more powerful, but that toyed with the really powerful ones due to his impressive intellect). The type of villain that was presented was not someone who was originally powerful, but the type of villain who doesn't need immense power after all, and whose mind is far deadlier a weapon than any nuclear bomb in existence.

Ah, I see what you meant. While he DOES have the incredible power, I don't think they show it so much as they focus on his intellect and planning skills, as brute force alone wouldn't acomplish what he wanted to acomplish. I think they actually kinda switched from one to the other. In the early parts of the game, it as mainly his intellect that was getting him what he wanted, but towards the end, at the Northern Crater when he went Bizarro and Safer, THAT'S when he switched into the almighty "**** THE SUN I AM SEPHIROTH!" villain.

[Eisole]

Firstly, this topic should be titled, "In your opinion, who is the strongest/most powerful villain?" because we can only really state our opinions on the subject of strongest fantasy(not-real) villain.

I'm for Exdeath as the strongest villain. If you oppose him, he sends you to oblivion. All the other villains will kill you, but Exdeath just has that extra option that he can do pretty much at whim, making it easier than straight up murdering your party with magic and attacks. And he can also murder you quite efficiently as well, so he's got all his bases covered. He manages to reach his ultimate goal of obtaining the void, killing all the Dawn Warriors, and setting about to erasing parts the world that could threaten him.
He loses to sheer luck mainly.

[Heartless Angel]

Firstly, this topic should be titled, "In your opinion, who is the strongest/most powerful villain?" because we can only really state our opinions on the subject of strongest fantasy(not-real) villain.

I'm affraid I'll have to disagree with you there =/

What you're advocating here is subjectivism, which is a death sentence to logic. Just because we can all have our own opinions and make a reasonable case to support them, does not mean all are equally reasonable, or all correct.

[Mythgraven]

ive only fought zeromus and cloud of darkness so far in my ff experiance, but although they r both challanging, zeromus has pissed me off much more than the cloud

[Angel of Iniquity]

. That goes with you, Odin; both Xanatos and Heartless are posters with carefully developed ideas, with their faves (Kuja and Sephy, respectively) and a strong desire to support them, and very different ways of observing villains, so while they might seem smartalecks, they have their reasons.

I respect them because they know what they are talking about, and being fans tends to create favoritism so I don't care about that.
Have I not posted reasons why I believe Ultimecia is the most powerful and intellectual? I have, and like the others do, I attempt to reduce or undermine others abilities to attempt to show more of Ultimecias power. While I can be "harsh,," I only react to how others react towards me...

Anyways...

Okay, fine, I don't care because I have already proved that Ultimecia is the strongest in design, it just takes an IQ of 126 to find them all *laughs cockily*
Jk

About the categories, what categories should we make then?
Most intellectually cunning? Magically powerful, Intellectually superb, Physically powerful, Leadership, Charisma? Who ever came closest to their goal in retrospect to their overall goal. What are their weaknesses(EVERYBODY HAS ONE!), Why did they fail(They all did in a sense other than really Vayne)?

Okay, I guess I'm just going to help Ultimecia as much as I can while showing "respects" to other villains cause I know I highly favor her >.>

[Heartless Angel]

Not really mate. You've showed why Ultimecia would beat restricted opponents, and dismissed all facts leading to her defeat as PIS. Ellone's powers were enough to let Squall and co. exist in Ultimecia's world, so her power was clearly not absolute, even against other sorceresses.

Again, no you haven't. All of your arguments thus far for the msot part can be condensed to, 'if she won she would've won' or 'if everyone else were worse than her she'd be the best'. Which, I suppose in a sense 'proves' your conclusion, because to accept your premises at all we've already agreed with it. Unfortunately, we don't all agree with it to begin with, so these arguments are insufficient. I have an IQ of 147, so if that was attempt to declare yourself smarter than those of us who disagree, or that all who are smart will agree, you've failed. Though there was a jk at the end, so I'll assume that was meant to be completely non serious. Just makin sure you know that as well lol.

As for categories perhaps...

Control (politcal power)
Cunning/Tactical ability
Mind**** skillz
Brute Strength (also including magic, not just for the warriors)
Natural power (meaning everybody before thy did something to gain power from an external source, as I think just about all of them did)
Max potential
Overall success

All I got so far.

[T.G. Oskar]

I respect them because they know what they are talking about, and being fans tends to create favoritism so I don't care about that.
Have I not posted reasons why I believe Ultimecia is the most powerful and intellectual? I have, and like the others do, I attempt to reduce or undermine others abilities to attempt to show more of Ultimecias power. While I can be "harsh,," I only react to how others react towards me...

One thing is to respect their opinion, and other is specifically using the term "slime" as an insult. You know, this is a public forum which anyone whom has a desire to learn about FF has access to (read-only, tho); hence, while it's a moderate insult, it's an insult nonetheless.

I might get a bit over my head sometimes, but I don't attempt to devolve into that. And even if I do, it's usually still on a very respectful way.

Again, no you haven't. All of your arguments thus far for the msot part can be condensed to, 'if she won she would've won' or 'if everyone else were worse than her she'd be the best'. Which, I suppose in a sense 'proves' your conclusion, because to accept your premises at all we've already agreed with it. Unfortunately, we don't all agree with it to begin with, so these arguments are insufficient. I have an IQ of 147, so if that was attempt to declare yourself smarter than those of us who disagree, or that all who are smart will agree, you've failed. Though there was a jk at the end, so I'll assume that was meant to be completely non serious. Just makin sure you know that as well lol.

You know, I'm supposed to have an IQ over 130 and I seriously have doubts that I have that kind of IQ. I do recall having an EQ of pretty much exactly 130 and I still have doubts whether that's useful or not. I mean, I'm not placing that as a badge of honor or anything. I know you're doing it as a response and that the entire thing was a joke, but if we're suddenly gonna reveal our intellectual quotients as if they were faithful measurements of power...

Also, IQ? What does that has to deal with opinion, when all it may link with is the ability to formulate a statement of support towards it? Then subjectivism, faulty logic...darn, this is turning into an ID thread! People are gonna refrain from answering because they'll expect an ID response! (Though I must be at fault there, but that's just me; I'm usually on "auto-ID-response" even on other forums...)

[Angel of Iniquity]

Not really mate. You've showed why Ultimecia would beat restricted opponents, and dismissed all facts leading to her defeat as PIS. Ellone's powers were enough to let Squall and co. exist in Ultimecia's world, so her power was clearly not absolute, even against other sorceresses.

Again, no you haven't. All of your arguments thus far for the most part can be condensed to, 'if she won she would've won' or 'if everyone else were worse than her she'd be the best'. Which, I suppose in a sense 'proves' your conclusion, because to accept your premises at all we've already agreed with it. Unfortunately, we don't all agree with it to begin with, so these arguments are insufficient. I have an IQ of 147, so if that was attempt to declare yourself smarter than those of us who disagree, or that all who are smart will agree, you've failed. Though there was a jk at the end, so I'll assume that was meant to be completely non serious. Just makin sure you know that as well lol.

As for categories perhaps...

Control (politcal power)
Cunning/Tactical ability
Mind**** skillz
Brute Strength (also including magic, not just for the warriors)
Natural power (meaning everybody before thy did something to gain power from an external source, as I think just about all of them did)
Max potential
Overall success

All I got so far.

I won't argue this yet, I'll wait till we do the Categories posted by you, and yea lol, the Jk was me playing around, tho I am curious, is your IQ really that high, because you would be greater than 99% of americans lol. I meant to serious disrespect by it lol.

I don't know if I should list the antagonists again and talk about the categories and them, or who I think should be seperatly, I'll just go with the latter lol


Control (politcal power)- Well, I honestly would have to give this to Kefka, he had complete control over the world, in which most people had to worship him. Tho there were allot of people who hated thim, they could do nothing. He more or less had in comparision with other villians. I didn't complete disc 4 of FF9 so I can't really say. In overall, the amount of power he had in comparison to his control outweighs others like seymore and palemecia

Cunning/Tactical ability- This one is a little hard. Palemecia purposely died in order to control heaven and hell. From what i hear, Sephiroth was really tactical but again, I only got to materia keeper. Kuja was smart, but I'm not sure how to digress this category and the mind**** one lol

Mind**** skillz- You guys are probably sick of me talking about ultimecia but here it goes again. Ultimecia like Sephiroth, needed a medium to use the magic spell, Time Kompression. She needed Adel for that extra boost. Meaning that Adel could have had more power in all, though Ultimecia had a stronger class of magic. She used the junction machine to send her mind to Edea, several generations in the past. She then used Edea to 1. Weaken the armies for potential attack(destroy SeeD, Missile strike on trabia, Garden war) and 2. attempt to find Ellone so she can use her ability and send her consciousness to the past for Adel. She didn't need Ellone because Dr Odine told them about her plan. Ultimecia had dual tricked them, over andover again. Ultimecia had the ability to control sorceresses from natural means meaning she has Mind**** abilities right their lol...

Brute Strength (also including magic, not just for the warriors)- Again, Ultimecia didn't show no ability other than controlling sorceresses, which for notice, the junction machine couldn't do, it would only send her consciousness back, not give her the ability to control them. But after the spell, she has no equal, literally. Give me proof because she honestly can't be compared having powers of all previous sorceresses, inwhich means she has half of the power of the great hyne, meaning she is half creator god, or just have the power of him.

Natural power- I give that to Palemecia, cause I mean, he just has incredible magical power with no increments unlike Kuja and the invincible. Or it could be sin it'self with gravity, one of the 5 greater powers being Time, Space, Mater, Gravity and ... I forgot...>.>

Max potential- Hmm, Well, Ultimecia and sephiroth would have both been existence threatening gods. Since I seen Ultimecias abilities in comparitive to sephiroths, I gotta give Time and Space an edge to Sephiroth since I don't see his medium overall strength(Edea had ice etc). She wasnted to be another creator god to create her existence without a sense of death and destiny. She kinda seems depressed if you look at her last words, which may be thought as sad, too bad SE didn't properly flesh her out.

Overall success- Again, destiny plays a major role in FF8, apparently, but before that, let me go to the other villains first.
Garland failed, as the light warriors stopped the endless cycle I believe. So did everybody until Ex-death.
Ex-death achieved his first goal of the void, then went psycho and wanted everything destroyed inwhich he faild, I believe the void got to him.
Kefka achieved his goal, but I believe his goal was set to low, and the fact he never had a goal to begin with. He basically just achieved godhood.
Sephiroth, I'll leave him to heartless.
Kuja, I'll leave him also cause I don't know enough.
Sin, yeh... Yu Yevon. He succeeded, plain and simple. Though he wasn't the smartest, being that he could easily die from people who had a brain and knowledge about Yu Yevon.
Vayne also succeeded, but as I posted before, his goal wasn't as hard to accomplish, being that I believe other villians could have done easily.

Okay, Ultimecia. To become the singularity of a time and space compression is pretty damn high, especially with the fact that she DID succeed, she did. Again, destiney played a part in squall and Co. entrance in the final time compressed state, the final form of ultimecia. For her goal, and how far she went, I believe she had the highest goal and achieved all but .0001% of it. SHe was finished with Time compression. PIS, played in when Squall killed her. Odine created Junctioning, giving the humans above normal powers, but none in comparative to Sorceresses. He had no means to beat her, as same with Cloud and Sephiroth. They had no weaknesses per say, just flaws in their plans. And yes, they both had flaws in their plans, if they didn't they wouldn't have had the opportunity to loose.

Damn that was long and took me about an hour of research.

[Angel of Iniquity]

One thing is to respect their opinion, and other is specifically using the term "slime" as an insult. You know, this is a public forum which anyone whom has a desire to learn about FF has access to (read-only, tho); hence, while it's a moderate insult, it's an insult nonetheless.

I might get a bit over my head sometimes, but I don't attempt to devolve into that. And even if I do, it's usually still on a very respectful way.

Well, Xanatos said I lost all credibility and said I knew nothing about strength, which is an insult in comparative to mine. Plus, Impertinent is an higher insult than calling somebody a FF monster >.>

An, my active Iq is higher, my resting Iq is 119. THis has nothing to do with Iq, it was a joke. Tho my EIQ is lower than average, cause I can remove emotions >.>

Anyways, back to post o.o

[Heartless Angel]

You know, I'm supposed to have an IQ over 130 and I seriously have doubts that I have that kind of IQ. I do recall having an EQ of pretty much exactly 130 and I still have doubts whether that's useful or not. I mean, I'm not placing that as a badge of honor or anything. I know you're doing it as a response and that the entire thing was a joke, but if we're suddenly gonna reveal our intellectual quotients as if they were faithful measurements of power...

Also, IQ? What does that has to deal with opinion, when all it may link with is the ability to formulate a statement of support towards it? Then subjectivism, faulty logic...darn, this is turning into an ID thread! People are gonna refrain from answering because they'll expect an ID response! (Though I must be at fault there, but that's just me; I'm usually on "auto-ID-response" even on other forums...)

Wouldn't surpise me, you're a pretty smart dude. IQ isn't so much the ammount of knowledge you have, but your reasoning ability, how fast you can think, and the like. And from all I've seen of you, you seem to have a knack for reasoning, though I can't say I know how long you spend making your arguments. It has little to no corellation to the subject at hand, but if we're following Odin's (joking) lead and using that to declare victor, just throwing out there that I'm winning =P

I won't argue this yet, I'll wait till we do the Categories posted by you, and yea lol, the Jk was me playing around, tho I am curious, is your IQ really that high, because you would be greater than 99% of americans lol. I meant to serious disrespect by it lol.

Yup, I actually have been tested and come back with an IQ of 147. It's been a while, but think I determined that put me above about 99.8% of the population or something like that. That's 3 standard deviations above average, so it's above a serious chunk any way you slice it. But again that has little to do with anything lol, so don't think I'm saying that makes me correct by default, or even more credible; as that would make me out to be an arrogant douche (which I probably am, but not for this reason).

Anyways, onto my own categories.

Political power: I'd have to Say Seymour, closely followed by Vayne. Kefka may have had control, as did the sorceresses of 8, but people hated them. This led to opposition, assassination attempts, parties going on epic quests to screw them, etc. People liekd and followed Vayne as a leader. Even more powerful was Seymour. not only did people folow him as a political leader, but as a spiritual/religous leader. THAT's got a lot of power embeded in it. Yeah, you'll listen to your government with the threat of law enforcement, but you WANT to follow your religion. People would do what Seymour asked with smiles on their faces. And even when you freakin beat the guy, the world turns against you and tries to sentence you death and excommunicate you and all that shit.

Cunning: I'd have to say Seymour again actually. He brilliantly carried out an assasination on his own father for political power, acted the part of a nice guy to the public, even had the other Maester's convinced that he really did care for Spira's good. Even ahd them standing up for him. Had it not been for Jyscal's undead ass telling Yuna the truth, she would've gone and died, and made him Sin with a smile on her face. The people would've been none the wiser, and by the time the other Master's figured out he was trying to make Sin more destructive than ever, it would've been too late. Kuja Seph and Ulti I'd put about on par here, probably Kefka as well.

Mind**** Skillz: Zemus. Definitely Zemus. He brainwashed people into brainwashing people for him, now that's hardcore. Seymour Ulti and Seph as a tie for close second.

Brute Strength: Seph. He tore apart Midgar with swordsmanship alone, has acess to planet smashing Materia (it was stated in VII that Meteor had the power to completely destroy the planet, not just beat it up pretty bad like Kuja's Ultima) And with this power, he still never showed us 100%. That's ****in scary. The only PIS Squall and co recieved was the ability to exist. Ulti's power was ultimately not enoguh to beat them in an actual fight. While a serious threat, her 'strength' wasn't raw power, but abilities that (would've) ensured her victory.

Max Potential: Again, Seph. Here I'd have to say by a landslide. He ALREADY had planet smashing powers. It took Holy, the party, the god damn planet firing the entire freaking lifestream as a deus ex machina laser, and Sqaure doing anything in their power to make a happy ending (basically the entire god damn world going against him at the same time) to make him lose, while he wasn't even showing the full extent of the power he already had. Had he succeeded in absorbing the entire planet's energy, he would not have become a God. There is no word for what he would've become. But Gods would bow before it and beg for mercy. What Ultimecia has was not power in the same sense. But rather an (in theory anyways) unbreakable control. She DID reach her maximum potential for raw power, it just wasn't enough to reach her goals when somebody was around to oppose her. She had dangerous abilities, but not actual power in the sense that other villains did. You could make a case that if you put them both in one world allowing for both of them to do the same things, that Ultimecia could take control without ever giving Seph a chance to fight her (unless Ellone happened to like him too), but that's not the same thing as her being stronger. If you put the two in a world where they could both reach their maximum potential power then had em duke it out, Ultimecia wouldn't have a ghost of a chance.

Overall success: Again, I have to concede this one goes to Kuja. Everything he set out to do, he did, just as he planned to. Seph as a close second. Also because he DID get what he wanted in a way, just not exactly how he planned to do it. And he's the only villain who gets a second chance (as well as a third, and however many more afterwards he wants). Ulti third, about on Par with Kefka in the sense that they both got so ridiculously close that it almost made me want to cry when they lost it. Seymour probably on that level as well, since he DID make it into Sin with some influence on his actions, and learning to have more, until the party happened to, by sheer coincidence run into him there too. (He was probably thinking, seriously? Inside Sin? You assholes are HERE too?! WHO WRITES THIS SHIT?!?!?!)

[Angel of Iniquity]

Brute Strength: Seph. He tore apart Midgar with swordsmanship alone, has acess to planet smashing Materia (it was stated in VII that Meteor had the power to completely destroy the planet, not just beat it up pretty bad like Kuja's Ultima) And with this power, he still never showed us 100%. That's ****in scary. The only PIS Squall and co recieved was the ability to exist. Ulti's power was ultimately not enoguh to beat them in an actual fight. While a serious threat, her 'strength' wasn't raw power, but abilities that (would've) ensured her victory.

Max Potential: Again, Seph. Here I'd have to say by a landslide. He ALREADY had planet smashing powers. It took Holy, the party, the god damn planet firing the entire freaking lifestream as a deus ex machina laser, and Sqaure doing anything in their power to make a happy ending (basically the entire god damn world going against him at the same time) to make him lose, while he wasn't even showing the full extent of the power he already had. Had he succeeded in absorbing the entire planet's energy, he would not have become a God. There is no word for what he would've become. But Gods would bow before it and beg for mercy. What Ultimecia has was not power in the same sense. But rather an (in theory anyways) unbreakable control. She DID reach her maximum potential for raw power, it just wasn't enough to reach her goals when somebody was around to oppose her. She had dangerous abilities, but not actual power in the sense that other villains did. You could make a case that if you put them both in one world allowing for both of them to do the same things, that Ultimecia could take control without ever giving Seph a chance to fight her (unless Ellone happened to like him too), but that's not the same thing as her being stronger. If you put the two in a world where they could both reach their maximum potential power then had em duke it out, Ultimecia wouldn't have a ghost of a chance.

I'm not by any means trying to reduce his power in this next statement.

Brute strength
Ultimecia also already had existence threatening powers, she just needed Adel for the boost of power to use it as Sephy needed Black materia.
And in comparative, if she already had the power to absorb all existence(tho needed the boost), which by itself is leagues beyond what the others could have done, that means she should have also been able to stop time, being that that should be easier to pull of than being the singularity of time compression lol. Again, unproved things, but things to think upon lol. And if magical abilities is placed with brute strength than she definitely does have the upper hand. Other than being a sorceress of Time and Space, she also has the unique ability to control other sorceresses without aid of an device. She also didn't need a machine to junction. Oh and she also created a Guardian force, and devised a magic thought to be the strongest magic. Not to mention she still had her own magic, Time compression which was not a seperate ability from herself. As with Sephy, the black materia summoned meteo, not him.(correct me if I'm wrong about seph)

Max potential
I kinda got lost on your logic with sephy cause, I don't think he would have had enough power to be considered a creator god, as in god. Ultimecia already had half the power when she fought squall during the last battle if you believe the Great Hyne back story.
If she completed the time compression, which in reality she did, nothing existed other than random particles of energy and... squall...
Speaking of that, the real reason why it is PIS is... Adel destroyed a nation with only her thought, which is beyond what all other villians could do... Ultimecia not only has her power, she has ALL sorceresses. She literally has every power in existence since the great Hyne, meaning literally, she is the most powerful in terms of absolute power. So... Adel>Squall... Ulti>Adel... Uti>Squall... I mean really, a thought? And the same with SE and FF8, Squall should have never won, he has no power in comparison to her...

"hmm... boom" *news broadcast* The entire nation of Balamb was destroyed by an unknown source...

To make it more interesting, by following the weird story-line, Rinoa could kill everybody.

[Heartless Angel]

Again, the time manipulation isn't power in the sense that I'm talking about, so parts of that I won't respond to. She couldn't control other sorceresses without the device, the other sorceresses is where she was sending her conciousness too. She couldn't travel back in time in a physical sense, only send her mind back. The ultimate GF and magic I would put AT BEST on Par with Meteor (which was also called the Ultiamte destructive magic in VII). She had the magic on her own, but not the means to use it. She lacked the energy her ultimate magic required until she absorbed the power of others. Materia is only a tool, no different than a sword. A sword by itself kills nobody, it's the warrior's hand one must fear. Sephiroth had the means to cast the ultiamte magic with sufficient power to destroy the entire world (though that isn't what he did with it) with his own natural strength. He FAILED to absorb the power of others, and can still compete with Ultimecia, who only absorbed a few powerful individual's powers (not all sorceresses either, as she couldn't combat Ellone's ability to allow Squall and co to coexist with her).

Sephiroth wasn't going to absorb the power of a few indivudals. He was going to absorb the power of every living thing. And he was ALREADY capable of matching Ulti, and wasn't using his full power. Had he suceeded, he would've ended up so much stronger than Ulti, it wouldn't have even been funny. WITHOUT succeeeding in absorbing everything, he didn't blow up a continent with a thought (Adel also didn't destroy the continent, just pretty much everything on it, and was still overpowered by people) . He blew up the SUN with math. And he FAILED to absorb all living things' energy, AND wasn't showing his full natural power. His max potential is farther beyond anything I even know a word to describe. Minerva, a God in the VII universe was weak enough to be beaten by Zack, who could not beat Sephiroth (Sephiroth NOT showing his full power mind you). So yeah, Gods would bow before that and beg for mercy in the VII universe. Seph is stronger than they are BEFORE absorbing the lifestream and NOT showing his full power. At max potential, the Gods would be nothing to him.

[Angel of Iniquity]

Again, the time manipulation isn't power in the sense that I'm talking about, so parts of that I won't respond to. She couldn't control other sorceresses without the device, the other sorceresses is where she was sending her conciousness too. She couldn't travel back in time in a physical sense, only send her mind back. The ultimate GF and magic I would put AT BEST on Par with Meteor (which was also called the Ultiamte destructive magic in VII). She had the magic on her own, but not the means to use it. She lacked the energy her ultimate magic required until she absorbed the power of others. Materia is only a tool, no different than a sword. A sword by itself kills nobody, it's the warrior's hand one must fear. Sephiroth had the means to cast the ultiamte magic with sufficient power to destroy the entire world (though that isn't what he did with it) with his own natural strength. He FAILED to absorb the power of others, and can still compete with Ultimecia, who only absorbed a few powerful individual's powers (not all sorceresses either, as she couldn't combat Ellone's ability to allow Squall and co to coexist with her).

Sephiroth wasn't going to absorb the power of a few indivudals. He was going to absorb the power of every living thing. And he was ALREADY capable of matching Ulti, and wasn't using his full power. Had he suceeded, he would've ended up so much stronger than Ulti, it wouldn't have even been funny. WITHOUT succeeeding in absorbing everything, he didn't blow up a continent with a thought (Adel also didn't destroy the continent, just pretty much everything on it, and was still overpowered by people) . He blew up the SUN with math. And he FAILED to absorb all living things' energy, AND wasn't showing his full natural power. His max potential is farther beyond anything I even know a word to describe. Minerva, a God in the VII universe was weak enough to be beaten by Zack, who could not beat Sephiroth (Sephiroth NOT showing his full power mind you). So yeah, Gods would bow before that and beg for mercy in the VII universe. Seph is stronger than they are BEFORE absorbing the lifestream and NOT showing his full power. At max potential, the Gods would be nothing to him.

Hmm, it was already stated that she did have the ability to control sorceresses without the aid of the device, the device only allowed her consciousness to be sent into the past. Put it like this. Ellone sent Squalls an Co. consciousness back into the past, but squall could not control and rearrange events, which Ellone later stated, but Ultimecia could, which means the whole your parents never met thing.
And time magic is power, time manipulation takes magic, it's and ability as is magic. And she did have the power of every sorceress before her as stated in the Ultimania.

Ultimecia, since having the power of all sorceresses before her, even if it was just Adel, is ridicoulosy(spelling fail) power.
Just having the ability to destroy an entire nation with a thought, destroys what the others could have done, other than persay Ex-death, which is still stronger than Sephy.
Sephy failed to do anything other than be one with the lifestream, Ulty compressed most of time. In literal sense, she killed everything single thing. And since she was absorbing and erasing time, she absorbed more than any other thing in history.

If Cloud were to stop Sephy in Time compression, his existence would fade away, so I'm pretty sure Ulty can finish him straight away. The only thing that is confusing me is exactly how these villains failed.

Also, if going by the time loop theory, Ultimecia increases her power by 100x every cycle. So every playthrough of FF8, in theory, ulti is 100x stronger than the last which is hurting my brain.

And why would you say time compression isn't strength? It is her spell, not some tools spell.

[Heartless Angel]

I'm saying power in terms of destructive force. Freezing time doesn't blow up planets. It just puts you in control of the situation. You can't kill anything with it (directly at least).

Without the aid of the device there were no sorceresses to control. She had to have Odine's device to send herself back and do that. Without it, she had nothing more than abnormally powerful magic, just like any other sorceress.

Again, no, a nation is nothing compared to What Seph can do. He can, and does blow up stars with math. You know, starts. They're hundreds or thousands of times larger than entire planets, which seven continents are a minority of. Star is much much larger than planet, and requires much more to destroy. So blowing up a nation with Adel's power is absolutely not a greater acomplishment than blowing up a star with math, or having the power to annihilate an entire planet with Meteor. It's not even close lol. Kuja destroyed everything on the face of an entire planet with one spell, also putting Adel's one nation to shame.

Seph didn't 'fail' to do more, he simply didn't want to do more. Becoming one with the lifestream was his goal. Blowing up nations for no particular reason is not bennificial to that end.

And having absorbed everything in her history, she still lacked the power that Sephiroth was capable of WITHOUT absorbing all life. AND without 100% effort.

She should've been able to do the same to Squall and co. but she failed because of Ellone, whoms power she supposedly absorbed. So she's missing something here, whether that be power, or planning. I can't imagine it's planning since she was from the future. As I said, you can make the case that she could win without a fight, but that is NOT a demonstration of power, merely an ability allowing her to control the situation. She does NOT have sufficient power to compete with Seph and some of the others.

The time loop theory makes little to no sense at all. If time is compressed to a singular point, there is no loop. You kill Ultimecia in that time compressed world, her past presence and future all cease to be. There's no loop here o.O

See above for what I meant by strength.

[Angel of Iniquity]

I understand when you say destructive power, but time compression erases everything, and whoever is the singularity absorbs the power.

His destruction of the solar system is not canonical cause... they were still extant.
And if adel did that with a thought, what do you think she(looks like a damn man >.>) could have done with full power? Again, thinking about the destruction of a whole nation is far beyond what acting on one could have been.

Another tibit of information. Squall should not have been able to kill Edea, inwhich Ulti got her powers from.
If you remember, Edea walked through a wall, put up an kinetic barrier which stopped Irvines sniper bullet, stronger than any sword attack as it was to kill her in a single hit. which also puts up their reaction timing.
And here is more. Edea has Ultimecias passed on powers, which means most of Edeas abilities other than favoring Ice, Ultimecia has. Creating an intangible force barrier equates to invincibility, as long as she can detect it, or she may as well just have it.

Also, it seems that Ultimecia has numerous monster control as well, as she brought omega weapon into her castle, as well as she created the two iguanon creatures.

Sorceresses are seen utilizing telekinesis(Edea), teleportation(Edea), telepathy(Ulty), mind control(Ulty), mental possession(Ulty), control over the elements(Edea), the installation life into inanimate objects(edea), projection of kinetic barriers(edea), the capacity to phase through solid matter(edea), and enhanced strength and endurance(Adel).

So, if she fealt a threat, which she most likely did in the parade, she could just put up an barrier and cast spells around that.
And remember, Edea has Ultimecias powers, and Ulty has all other powers.
In other words, no villian can compete, literally. Sephiroth never showed the ability to have half as much power and Ulti has never shown at 100%, neigh even 50%

[Kurt Zisa]

Y'know looking back over the last few pages, thread has turned into "whos better Ulti or Sephy"

I just wanted to add more to Seymore's repetior as i think that while he isnt the "main" villian in X he can still be on par with others in some aspects.

Intelligene and Cunning: He releases Fiends into Luca during the Blitzballl tournement with the intention of summoning Anima and killing them all to show off his strength and to gain admiration from the people of Spira (not to mention Yuna). His plan of marriying Yuna was so he could become her sacrifice for the next Sin thus acheiving his goal.

Power: He had both in the political and might sides of it. In the political side he was a Maester of Yevon, leader of the Guado and the High Preist of Macalania Temple. Such was his influence over the Guado that when he was killed they mourned his loss and felt lost without his leadership and guidence, especially Tromell. In the might side of it, he slew almost the entire Ronso tribe on Mount Gagazet after they tried to stop him reaching Yuna and Co. and he managed to hold off a giant Sinspawn in Operation Mi'hen long enough for Auron and Yuna to aid him.

Abilities: Being a Summoner he has his own Aeon, Anima, which could be considered one of the most poweful summonsin the game. Once he becomes an Unsent he has the powr to absorb pyreflies to transform him, the Guado gaurdians and Kinoc in Bevell, the Ronso he'd slain on Gagazet and while inside Sin he coud have absorbed them from Sin itself considering it's one giant mass of pyreflies.

Ambitions: He thinks nothing of killing those who stand in his way, his father, Maester's Kinoc and Kelk Ronso, the Ronso tribe and even Yuna, his supposed bride even stating "allow me to (kill her) because she is my bride." In his opinion, he is saving them from suffering and sorrow by killing them,calling death a "sweet slumber".

[Angel of Iniquity]

Y'know looking back over the last few pages, thread has turned into "whos better Ulti or Sephy"

I just wanted to add more to Seymore's repetior as i think that while he isnt the "main" villian in X he can still be on par with others in some aspects.

Intelligene and Cunning: He releases Fiends into Luca during the Blitzballl tournement with the intention of summoning Anima and killing them all to show off his strength and to gain admiration from the people of Spira (not to mention Yuna). His plan of marriying Yuna was so he could become her sacrifice for the next Sin thus acheiving his goal.

Power: He had both in the political and might sides of it. In the political side he was a Maester of Yevon, leader of the Guado and the High Preist of Macalania Temple. Such was his influence over the Guado that when he was killed they mourned his loss and felt lost without his leadership and guidence, especially Tromell. In the might side of it, he slew almost the entire Ronso tribe on Mount Gagazet after they tried to stop him reaching Yuna and Co. and he managed to hold off a giant Sinspawn in Operation Mi'hen long enough for Auron and Yuna to aid him.

Abilities: Being a Summoner he has his own Aeon, Anima, which could be considered one of the most poweful summonsin the game. Once he becomes an Unsent he has the powr to absorb pyreflies to transform him, the Guado gaurdians and Kinoc in Bevell, the Ronso he'd slain on Gagazet and while inside Sin he coud have absorbed them from Sin itself considering it's one giant mass of pyreflies.

Ambitions: He thinks nothing of killing those who stand in his way, his father, Maester's Kinoc and Kelk Ronso, the Ronso tribe and even Yuna, his supposed bride even stating "allow me to (kill her) because she is my bride." In his opinion, he is saving them from suffering and sorrow by killing them,calling death a "sweet slumber".

Well, you are right in some respects, but Seymore, if he was his max potential, wouldn't be on par with Ulty or Sephy, in fact, both Ulty and sephy I think were smart, to an extent, greater than Seymore.

And, Seymore wasn't an existence threat, or shown the potential to be one/.

[Kurt Zisa]

Well, you are right in some respects, but Seymore, if he was his max potential, wouldn't be on par with Ulty or Sephy, in fact, both Ulty and sephy I think were smart, to an extent, greater than Seymore.

And, Seymore wasn't an existence threat, or shown the potential to be one/.

Would you count becoming Sin an existance threat? i mean he very nearly acheived that goal , but as Yuna and Co. arrived in time, he failed.

I think i just proved myself wrong there.

[Angel of Iniquity]

Would you count becoming Sin an existance threat? i mean he very nearly acheived that goal , but as Yuna and Co. arrived in time, he failed.

I think i just proved myself wrong there.

Well, Existence threat as in... Boom, everybody will die now. Probably but what would be the point, without the ability to recreate life?

Existence threat as... All existence denied? Nah, Sin is strong, but he can't harm existence in literal.

[Kurt Zisa]

Well, Existence threat as in... Boom, everybody will die now. Probably but what would be the point, without the ability to recreate life?

Existence threat as... All existence denied? Nah, Sin is strong, but he can't harm existence in literal.

If i understand what you mean about everybody dying, that was Seymore's goal. By killing everyone he beleived he would end Spira's suffering.

[Heartless Angel]

Time compression didn't erase everything. It erased everyone. Everyone couldn't exist in her world, that isn't the same as destroying everyone. By the same logic, kicking someone out of your house is homicide. BFR =/= Destruction.

Problem being, none of your asserted premises for your argument have ever been stated anywhere by anyone I'm aware of. If she had the power of all other Sorceresses, she would've made herself impervious. She didn't. If she had all other sorceresses powers, she could've annihilated Squall and co with a thought as soon as they popped up in her time. She didn't. If she had Ellone's powers, she could've stopped Squall and co. from being able to exist in her time, she didn't. She lacked these powers. Notice Adel also was not omnipotent even with her alleged nation killing thoughts. She was defeated and imprisoned by normal human beings. This leads to one of two conclusions. Either Ultimecia inheritted the combined stupidity and arrogance of every sorceress alive (including Adel, who in spite of alleged continent breaking thoughts was beaten by humans), leaving her with her head so far up her own ass, she couldn't see the fight at all. OR these powers were exaggerated, or not completely present within Ultimecia. Ultimecia herself never at any point EVER demonstrated having ANY of the powers of the other sorceresses we know.

Now there is another theory, which explains how and why she lost. That theory being the Squall is Dead theory, which suggests there never was an Ultimecia, and that it was just a part of Squall's final thoughts after being killed by Edea on disc one. In which case it makers perfect sense that her losing makes no sense (wait whut? lul), because it was in fact Squall's dream, which of course would end however he wanted it to. Personally I believe this theory to be true, which is one of many reason I don't consider Ultimecia a serious villain.

[Xanatos]

I see there was a discussion regarding Sephiroth's intellect, I might give my thought on that subject as well, which is just the opposite from what Heartless had to say.

For a brilliant tactician his plans were rather poor, I'll be honest here, I don't think he was a good tactician to begin with. When one man can, and has dealt massive damage to Wutai army, alongside the likes of Genesis, and Angeal who may not be on par with Sephiroth, still, their strength can't be overlooked, advanced firepower and superior army, what's there to tactics, surely the victory was but mere formality. My point being, Sephiroth relied more on a brute strength than anything else. At point where brute strength wouldn't cut, his limit as far as intellect goes was shown. Now I'm not saying he was stupid, far from it, but his plan was far from worked out, and some of his moves were far from intelligent, not really traits of brilliant tactician if you ask me. With few well chosen words Kuja had control over Brahne without her even realizing, somewhat different approach, but still smart, and he had control over Zidane as well, both did biding for him, on the other hand Sephiroths control over Cloud, and Jenova, who did majority of his dirty work, but not nearly as much as they could have done if he thought it through for a minute, was but a mere product of Jenova cells.

But then again maybe he really didn't give a damn right from the start, which would explain quite a few things, all facts indicate that he achieved immortality way before he summoned the meteor, thus mistakes or even failure were somewhat acceptable, he certainly doesn't look like a guy would loose everything in fist fight with Cloud. That again rises another question, why hesitate, if you truly want God like power then take it .Unfortunately the same thing leads me to my own question's answer, Squares philosophy, and really convenient, silly at best reasons for Sephiroth's downfall, villains can't win.

Well, Xanatos said I lost all credibility and said I knew nothing about strength, which is an insult in comparative to mine. Plus, Impertinent is an higher insult than calling somebody a FF monster >.>

An, my active Iq is higher, my resting Iq is 119. THis has nothing to do with Iq, it was a joke. Tho my EIQ is lower than average, cause I can remove emotions >.>

Anyways, back to post o.o

Do read my posts again, I never said you knew nothing about strength, though I did point out your lack of understanding what power really is. I don't want to sound like a douche here, but it seems to me you still don't.

In quite a few occasions you showed how little you know about particular villains, and you were eager to admit it, despite of it you still underestimated them, thus you lost credibility in my book as far as this discussion goes. Don't take this as an insult, it's not, even though my response may seem harsh.

[Angel of Iniquity]

Don't worry about it Xanatos, I'll live ^^

Adel was tricked by her own ego, the only reason why she got caught, and the only reason why she lost to Squall and Co is because she hadn't had her powers after her release, which is why she had to draw from Rinoa.

Okay, here is my full proof on ultimecias power.

If Ultimecia can create griever from Squalls mind, she can read his mind then.
And this also means she can animate anything at will.
Ultimecia, while controlling Edea, mind screwed Deling and controlled him, showing her mental possession powers
Edea had Ice, not time and space, so it was Ultimecias abilities that allowed her to walk through walls, phase through ceilings and reanimate statues.
I believe either Ultimecia was toying with the party as much as Sephy was, or she really didn't care to die, as this could have been her overall plan.

Reasons why

1.If she was toying with them, that would make sense why she didn't finish them immediately.
2. If she was toying with them, that would make sense of why she didn't just create a thousand grievers to attack the party
3. If she was toying with them, that would make sense why she didn't go psycho mantis and acknowledge what they would do next, due to her mind reading abilities.
4. I believe Ulty was just trying to put fear into the party as how she introduced Griever, instead of creating something stronger than eden.

1. At the last battle, she said ALL existence denied, she either gave up and just wanted everything dead, or was her secondary plan
2. "Since her plan was to use time compression to become god-like, then delete the current universe and make a new one to her liking, she should of said "[This] existence denied," but denying ALL existence implies that she doesn't even want a universe of her own making anymore and is going to erase everything now, including herself. Her Scan info may be implying this, "Ultimecia, transformed to absorb all time and space. Absorbing all existence as we speak." Presumably she would destroy herself after absorbing everything, thus ending existence."

So, she either has to be playing around with the party, or didn't care to die.