I call bullshit on Cloud's fall, since from what I've seen in that horrid movie, a fall like that is basically tripping on a branch for him and Squall was just pierced through the shoulder, so it wasn't fatal. I haven't played FF9 yet (I hope it's actually decent compared to FFX), but I do agree with you on Auron. He's such a mother****er that being killed only pissed him off, not to mention being the only redeemable thing in that game.Originally Posted by o0Odin0o
In Final Fantasy 7, it was a hades wall or demon wall. it was basically a demon that lived in the wall of the door to some...place, can't remember. so that thing basically just waits for people to find it, totally immobile. The Lucavi on the other hand are masters of dark magic and are formidible even in close combat. Also Ramza killed every single one he came in contact with. His crowning moment was when he basically killed a GOD powered on even more of the Dark lucavi magic. He then survives an apocalyptic explosion, pulls his sister out of it, transports back to his world due to he power of JUSTICE, and briefly attends his own funeral to ride off into the sunset.
That, my dear, is badass.
Hmm, I never played Tactics cause it was too slow lol
Well, that does sound impressive. I wish I knew more or played it further than the first battle lol.
Well, Was there any PIS that he killed a god? Was he naturally powerful enough to kill it or did he gain something that immediately let him squeeze out an victory?
Your pathetic existence will shut down. I will make your lives end in ruin. Fear me, as you fear death. Not a threat, not a promise, but what must be finished. 7 final arcs...
He didn't gain any powers or sword of gondor, it was all him. Tactics has the best story of all the games in my opinion. It has a rich complex story, relateable, believable characters, deep and strategic gameplay, and of course, Obi wan ken-i mean Thundergod Cid. If you want to pick it up again, I recommend steering away from the PSP remake. yes you get to keep more characters, Balthier and Luso hop in, a dark knight and Onion Knight class and multiplayer, but the re translation kind of left me with a bad taste in the mouth, there were some issues with sound effect syncing and some (what felt to me) tacked on cell shaded cutscenes.
Well, the game was a little slow and I didn't feel fantasy from it. Well what I mean is it all felt to organized with judges and stuff. Too ordly for Fantasy
Your pathetic existence will shut down. I will make your lives end in ruin. Fear me, as you fear death. Not a threat, not a promise, but what must be finished. 7 final arcs...
Correction, my friend: Ramza's guerrilla team is badass. Because that's what's implied at the end of the game; it wasn't Ramza alone, but pretty much a small battalion against the expy of the Antichrist...which has a clone body of Ramza's sister while she stands at your side. Oh, on a graveyard of airships.
But...considering things in the world of Ivalice after the Cataclysm but before "Modern Age", it is pretty surprising. The expy pretty much sunk an entire chunk of land after death, and the Holy Stones/Auracite effectively grant miracles (case in point; they revive Marach from the same kind of death that Aeris and Leo and others suffered; they bring Cloud into that world, amongst their purpose of summoning the Lucavi).
Still: it's obvious Ramza isn't the best, not even by a hair. That title is left alone to the Thunder God, Cidolfas Orland(ea)u. When Ramza and Alma apparently escape, the only other person mentioned as possibly alive is a 53 year old man who could end up a battalion on his own. Heck, if going clearly by mechanics, he can fight the final boss plus minions by himself.
So yeah, when the best you can do is learn Ultima but suck badly at using it because your best move is called Scream, while you have an old man pulling off just about every sword technique in the world, you know you're not even close to awesome. T.G. Cid, without a shadow of a doubt, is awesome. The only person who could actually compete with him perished of (semi)-natural causes. And the only other challenges aren't even in the same world (for that, you need to go to Zeteginea/Xytegenia).
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Waaaiiittt... So you are saying that guy is the best in the series?
Out of the FF series?
This I would love to debate haha
Your pathetic existence will shut down. I will make your lives end in ruin. Fear me, as you fear death. Not a threat, not a promise, but what must be finished. 7 final arcs...
The original game didn't have laws or judges. that was the advance series. As for Oskar's comment, every other final fantasy hero had their friends backing them up. Hell in the last boss of FF7, Cloud had all of his little troupe to turn to. Also, I managed to beat the final boss without TG Cid. It was hard as balls, but I did it.
Uh...did I mention that?
First, Final Fantasy Tactics is a spin-off, but it's generally considered part of the Final Fantasy series given that it's integrated into the lore of a Final Fantasy game (namely, FF XII). Can't say the same for Final Fantasy Adventure and Final Fantasy Legend, which were names given to those games to try to cash on the success of Final Fantasy (but are games from different series; Mana and SaGa respectively).
Second: all I mentioned is that Orland(ea)u >>>>> Ramza. The only thing Ramza has that Orland(ea)u doesn't is Scream, which requires a few turns to increase all ranks. However, while Ramza requires some time to train, Orland(ea)u comes pre-trained, in which all you need to do is unleash your favorite technique and presto, enemy is dead or pretty much dying. Keep it as Holy Swordsman/Sword Saint for the rest of the levels, and you can pretty much one-shot everything.
In FF7: Advent Children, you can see that Cloud pretty much held Sephy at bay (though opinions may differ), and the rest of the "troupe" did mostly cameos. Earlier Final Fantasy games have a better notion of party work, because in most of their sequels the entire group is treated as the heroes; in Advent Children, the only hero is Cloud (much like in the sequel to Final Fantasy X, the only one treated like a hero is Yuna). With Dissidia on the loom, each villain had its pairing, so the concept of a group defeating a single opponent gets effectively lost (although you can see that has started to shift a bit).
You don't need Orland(ea)u to beat it, but it's just to show how cheesy he is (any other would have perished in the back-to-back battle). Plus, with a full team the final boss is really easy.Also, I managed to beat the final boss without TG Cid. It was hard as balls, but I did it.
If you want a challenge, though...hmm, I should try doing a solo Rafa/Rapha final boss run. That should be interesting
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Hey T.G. Oskar are you by any chance thetrueoskar one the gamefaqs forums?
If you're gonna go into the whole dissidia area, I'd have to say that the whole roster was jacked up. I'm pretty sure that Ramza would have been on par if he was thrown in there. The warrior of light, Garland, Onion Knight, Cecil, and Bartz could all change jobs, so I wouldn't be surprised if they did the same for Ramza. Probably change from his mercenary armor to his next one which probably would have been an EX mode. Dissidia displayed all the characters with far more fighting prowess than they ever had in the games, doing manga jumps, running on walls, being able to stay in the air indefinitely, among other things. I call bullshit if anyone tries to bring in Dissidia on a conversation like this, lets just keep it in their respective games and media which features their universes solely.
Okay, lets keep it in their games, no spin offs.
So antidrall, who do you think is the most powerful character or the one who could win against all others? Think about their weaknesses, the weaknesses of their attacks, and the abilities shown in game. I still think Rinoa is the best Magic, squall is the best physical fighter. I do like FF8 more than others soooo...
Oh, one can argue that Lightning can be the best warrior, but other than fancy spins and a weapon almost as retarded in design as clouds or Squalls, she has no augments incomparable to others. No in game mechanics. Wordly mechanics are welcome, but no items as in, Items you can use in battle or out battle. Meaning Heros or holy wars, and potions and crap.
Your pathetic existence will shut down. I will make your lives end in ruin. Fear me, as you fear death. Not a threat, not a promise, but what must be finished. 7 final arcs...
I do recall having, ONCE, an account on Gamefaqs, but that was so long ago that they should have erased it. So most probably not.
Um, let's get a few points clear.
First, the mention I made from Dissidia has worth in the conversation because it was basically explaining a few terms between games. Final Fantasy Tactics is a game where there are a few protagonists and a lot of generic characters you train, because you're not playing a group of adventurers (much like in every other RPG), you're dealing with a military organization or guerrilla group. For example: in Starcraft, which isn't an RPG but has many things in common with one, you manage an entire army. Going with strategical RPGs (Ogre Battle), you manage a pretty much equal army, even though you do have an Opinion Leader which effectively becomes the protagonist. Going with tactical RPGs, you get games like Dissidia, Hoshigami, Kartia, Tactics Ogre and others where you manage a much smaller army; it can be anything from a company (the usual case, though a very unorthodox company), a platoon, or even a battalion. In a tactical RPG, even though you have a story to follow, the idea is that you're not dealing with a group, but with an organized group of soldiers; thus, since you're routinely facing groups of bandits and armies, the entire army becomes important. In the case of FF Tactics, you can't ever say Ramza defeated the final boss alone because it was the entire team whom did it, and the team is generally larger than a group of adventurers such as the Warriors of Light, the Warriors of Dawn, the Returners or AVALANCHE. That dynamic is broken with groups like the Wild Rose Rebellion (you're an adventuring group backed by several countries) and SeeD (you're a small group of mercenaries striking on your own, becoming an adventuring party out of necessity, but you have a full organization backing you up as well).
Second: for all purposes, Dissidia is the closest thing to a comparison point. Mechanically it is made so that everybody fights to a similar degree; that's true. However, I'd like to point you out to something. At which moment in the first Final Fantasy VII game did you saw the "manga jumps", the "running on walls" (wall-walking), the "stay in air indefinitely" (levitating)? The first appeared mostly on Advent Children; the second...also on Advent Children. The third was used by Sephiroth, but it was also used earlier (heck, when you meet Kefka for the last time he's ALSO levitating...); however, Cloud never got to levitate or do impressive jumps until Advent Children. Because of that, and because of earlier reasons, trying to judge the overall strength of characters using the respective mechanics of the games really leads nowhere, because they will be as strong as the hardware in which their games are allows. However, since that means you can't do crossover comparisons, you need a "canon" game which allows comparisons, and Dissidia serves as that vehicle, like it or not. The game isn't really canon, and that's important to point out, but it IS the closest thing to compare with. And even then, you can figure out that they have to submit to another architecture (they aren't on an RPG, they're on a 3D "fighting" game so you'll probably find Tier systems for them).
So, to resume; just because I mention Dissidia to state a point that doesn't have to deal anything with the personal strength OR power of the main characters, but only as a commentary referring to the stated pairs of main heroes and villains per each story doesn't mean it's less valuable or not. Eventually, if I don't bring this, someone else will. I showed my disagreement with the use of mechanics, true, but I did gave an alternative worth to that line of thought (because that way you measure each character through a mechanical means but also respecting the limits of each hardware); having a demeaning tone towards bringing up Dissidia just because you don't like it doesn't seem very productive to the conversation at all.
Having said all that: they jacked up most people, but there are still tier lists for both Dissidia and Dissidia Duodecim. Mostly because of the infrastructure of the game itself. So they aren't exactly equal in all senses; that's like saying Marvel vs. Capcom is balanced because everyone is equal (MvC2 is not quite balanced, but the amount of tricks of each character gives a semblance of balance, until you add Cable, Magneto, Sentinel or Storm to the teams; MvC3 removed Cable but has added someone like Dante to the list).
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Nomu-baka, this is FAR from over...:
^ Oh ok good, I just wanted to know because I do not like that guy at all.
What I meant by 'Staying in the air indefinitely' is that you can get the characters to repeatedly double jump, attack an enemy in mid air, and keep on jumping. But I get what you're saying on the whole guerilla team (I'll get to that in a sec). Also, Advent Children was honestly a long 90 minutes of no sense (which I will expose in the future), if he can jump 500 stories in AC, along with all of his party members, why couldn't they in the game? There was no reason given and we never saw them train for it. You can't say because Cloud's a SOLDIER because he never did before, but that wouldn't explain the others or how they'd not die by landing from such a fall-and wow, I'm off track. Okay, so the whole team thing.
While in all the other Final Fantasies, it's said that a group of people with all given identites defeated the final menace. In Tactics, Ramza was always Acknowledged as the true hero, while the other people weren't even given any lines after they're recruited. I'm not sure if Arazlam even mentioned any other people helping him, including the story characters. That was all implicating that Ramza possibly turned down all the offers from others like Agrias and Rafa. So story wise, Ramza kicked Altima's ass solo.
Now for gameplay wise. Lets say that Ramza picked out four generic characters rather than people important to previous plot lines, monsters, or side quests since they weren't integral to the plot after their time in the spotlight. So Ramza trained these four nobodies to become ass kicking warriors that took down super doom Jesus. He somehow mastered 22 forms of combat and magic, passed down those teachings to a bunch of other people, getting their ranks in line, and taught them the sacred arts of demon killing and slain a malevolent church spirit bent on total destruction.
As a swordsman, Ramza defeated Gafgarion, a dark knight, in single combat while his allies fought against the enemy soldiers outside the gate, and stood his ground against Wiegraf before he becomes Velias. That's pretty much all I got unless someone can prove me wrong (or try).
What is the power potential or exhibited power of the characters you spoke of?
Were they in comparable to other villians from the main FF series?
Your pathetic existence will shut down. I will make your lives end in ruin. Fear me, as you fear death. Not a threat, not a promise, but what must be finished. 7 final arcs...
Gafgarion was a mercenary with dark powers, his attacks able to drain the health and mp from his enemies. He wasn't evil, he was just a mercenary doing whatever he could for money. But he did fight Ramza with all his strength, ultimately getting crystalized (in game death). Wiegraf was an even more formitable foe. Powered on the zodiac stones and desire for revenge for the death of his sister (he denied this, but I still have a feeling he wanted a little vengeance). Once Ramza bested him in single combat, Wiegraf transformed into the Lucavi Velias using said zodiac stone. He then summons a few demons hoping that he'd have a sliver of a chance in defeating Ramza. But Ramza saw past this little strategy and called in the reinforcements to deal with those pesky demons. They then massacred the entire demonic squad, claiming the stone of Tauros. Velias could use Unholy, a spell which is like Holy but...Un. he also displayed proficency in summoning, bringing Clops int the fray to do..something, I don't understand what the clops spell is supposed to do.
Last edited by Antidrall; 02-21-2011 at 11:15 PM.
I see. BUt do you yourself, in an honest opinion, think Ramza is better than the other FF characters? This is an attempt to learn more, not be an ass lol
Your pathetic existence will shut down. I will make your lives end in ruin. Fear me, as you fear death. Not a threat, not a promise, but what must be finished. 7 final arcs...
Okay...
The first game didn't have a specific main character, so that's out.
Firion was highly skilled in the use any and all weapons, but I call bullshit on dissidia, since if someone carried that many weapons, they would be pretty immobile, so he should be able to use 2 at the most. He could also use a wide variety of magic as well.
In FF 3, there were characters, but they were still interchangeable. The were basically the same as FF2, but with an added command.
I haven't played number four yet (waiting for the psp release), but I do know that he must be a skilled swordsman, and he used white magic.
I've heard that Bartz is basically the same as FF3, so *copy, paste*
I haven't played FF6 yet but-...wow, that's a lot of flaming thoughts. But I do know that Terra's part esper and was a strong female lead until dissidia turned her into a dependent, useless without a man, woman. and Judging from FF wiki, she has several destructive spells at her disposal. Not to mention turning into her esper form to rain holy spell****ing.
FF7 I've played...and semi regret, but Cloud has a single pauldron (the reason for ever having a single pauldron is for using a single hand weapon, cloud uses an improbably large sword), an improbably large sword (seriously, a sword should not be as wide as your torso), he has access to materia (Which I could write a novel on why they make no sense), and uses limit breaks (which raise all sorts of questions when you stop and think about each of them). He could be a contender, but his fighting would rely on his materia selection since he puts them in his sword...or arm...whatever, and is limited to what ones he could pick (not the summon all or magic all ones, those are cop outs). Also, his sword would be likely ineffective due to a little thing called GRAVITY.
A lot of people call bullshit on Squall's weapon, the Gunblade. Don't get me wrong, I do too, but there have been fencing swords that had flintlock pistols built into the hilt. They fired one bullet, and were a bitch to reload, but they worked. Squall's gunblade on the other hand is just plain impractical. The gun should not be pointed out of the sword. the barrel is in the blade, making it impossible to make a cut through anything. And if they were in a sword fight, the barrel would get dented, not allowing any bullet to pass through. He can also draw magic from enemies, essentially copying their spells (not exactly, I know, but still). He again has limit breaks which still make little to no sense.
I haven't played FF9 (going by FF wiki page again), but he is of course a thief, able to steal minor items, yet that would probably not do much good in battle (well he could steal materia). His skill abilities would most likely come in handy for tricking most foes, and I'm sure that dyne could possibly be on par with Terra's esper. his agility could also outdo a certain whiny, blonde haired, oval blade wielding, water polo athlete.
Tidus is my bane. not because he could kill me, I could terrorize this bastard. I could go on a rant on why I despise him, but that's not the purpose of this thread. His sword is absolutely useless. It is not sharp, it's not made for cutting, and it's filled with water. actually, it's not useless, you know what you can use it for? fishing for whales. It has a giant hook on it, what more do you need?! He also has "Shields". I say "Shields", because they are too small to be a buckler, and are shaped in ridiculous ways. His spells are primarily time magic, haste and slow which could assist him slightly, but his moronic weapon would most likely just piss off his enemy. His other attacks are actually specifically designed to piss off the enemy. Provoke, cheer, delay attack, these would all drive me into a water polo celebrity induced killing frenzy. but he would most likely use Flee to escape. Yes, he did defeat god...but it was honestly the easiest boss I've fought in a FF game.
Now for Ramza. Ramza was raised a swordsman, taught how to fight since a young age by his family, and training with his best friend Delita. Once he was admitted into the academy there, he learned the basic Squire abilities, and once he left, he learned new abilities to add to his squire job. He has learned to master 22 forms of combat and magic, putting him at least on par with the heroes from FF 2, 3, 4, and 5. In his crusade to rescue his sister, he has faced down several demons, more powerful than the last, ultimately leading up to a possessed son of god. That's right, Super Doom Jesus. But his true strength lies in his original job, the Squire. Since he didn't graduate from the academy in Gariland, he was unable to become a holy knight with access to the holy sword. instead, he left and denounced his noble name, adopting his mother's maiden name. over the course of his travel,s he eventually learns several new skills. Wish would heal his allies at the cost of half of the healed amount, Shout increases his speed and magical and physical prowess, and Ultima which is the spell that he must survive from in order to learn. once he learns it, he can use this destructive spell for good.
All in all, I still stand by my decision with Ramza, with Terra coming in with a close second.
Last edited by Antidrall; 02-22-2011 at 01:13 AM.
Okay then, since you know allot about ramza, and I am a certified fanboy of FF8, Squall vs Ramza for a second.
The gunblade in FF8 did not shoot bullets, it shot a shockwave, significantly increasing the amount of kick to the users swing.
Draw is a major asset Squall has to him. Ramza has Ultima? *Draw, Cast*
He also has Highly pertinent accuracy. In game it is 255%, meaning always a hit. But since I'm not counting in game stats... But that also should show that he has great accuracy. Why? Lulu has good magic stat, which would relate to her having good magic.
And here is more. Squall has been trained with the gunblade for a long time, basically knowing everything about the weapon, and is greatly intellectual.
As well as being able to hyper jump (In game, second disc, prison with zell), he also has a great array of magic at his disposal.
In theory, Hero war beats all, but that's not fair lol
Also, Meltdown causes a 100% vit 0, meaning defense is nothing. You have an adamant veil? *gunblade pierces it like water*
Now getting on to Limit breaks. I wouldn't doubt his rough divide, showing that he does have great jumping ability. His fated circle can be a manipulated chi attack, as seifers fire cross is used with his chi. His Blasting zone is kinda overkill. I doubt the whole cutscene is canonical but, he may as well be able to manipulate his chi or surrounding energy... maybe...?
And his lionheart. He has great jumping ability, and shown he has speed with his renzokuken, so mix his rough divide, about 2-4 renzokukens, and a 40 foot fall and you get Lionheart, actually believable in comparison to CLouds inwhich was a batle in his mind. (DONT KNOW MUCH ABOUT FF7 SO DONT TAKE IT TO HEART)
Now, he has intellect, fighting ability being trained since a young age, accuracy. That brings up magic more in depth.
He can stock the ultimate magic that the strongest sorceress made, in a split second. All I know is he, if world mechanics allow, should be able to draw all magics from all people who know a magical spell.
He has speed, accuracy, magic, fighting ability and intellect which was displayed at the garden war.
That brings up defense. He did get pierced in the let portion of his chest, shoulder area. If going by human anatomy, there are NUMEROUS vital points in that area, being Phrenic nerve, left atrium of the heart, Vagus nerve, Axial Arteries, Median arteries... All which would cause a loss of function, and highly resulting in death. He also fell about 4-5 stories, which causes other problems, guessing he fell on the back of his head.
I'm also guessing the sorceress revived him, which would make sense that seifer said the sorceress wanted info on what Seed was, and guessing that, maybe seifer said so, that squall knows more than the others.
Sorry if this was a long post, just wanted to attempt my abilities as a debater... Or at least try to lol
Now, I don't know well, What are Ramzas abilities in comparative to that?
I can also Argue Bartz since he has about 33 classes, ranging from everything literally.
Your pathetic existence will shut down. I will make your lives end in ruin. Fear me, as you fear death. Not a threat, not a promise, but what must be finished. 7 final arcs...
I like how you just 'call bs' on anything you don't like. I can just as easily dismiss Beoulve's abilities as bs because I don't think he's cool enough to have them. Fact of the matter is, Firion DOES have the ability to carry numerous weapons (in faact all FF characters do, none of them have a packmule with them for storage, and backpacks usually don't fly), can use them all, and contiues to maitain high mobility. A testament to physical strength and hand to hand skill if nothing else. Though I wouldn't call him the strongest by any means, he's alot better than you give him credit for.
He was initially a Dark Knight (at which point he was way more badass IMO), captain of the Dark Knights I believe. One can reasonably infer from that that he was the strongest of them. So he's got Darkness, which boosts the hell out of physical attacks at the cost of some health. He overcomes his own Darkness to become a Paladin, so he's got strength of character. I don't seem to recall any particularly impressive feats of strength, but he was cool if nothing else lol.I haven't played number four yet (waiting for the psp release), but I do know that he must be a skilled swordsman, and he used white magic.
Though I hate Bartz, I will give him credit. He learns numerous fighting styles, and can use them all effectively, one of the things you credit Ramza with. And he beats Exdeath, who I'd be willing to bet money is at least as strong as Super Doom Jesus (I like that name btw XD)I've heard that Bartz is basically the same as FF3, so *copy, paste*
And now we're back to this again. The fact that you don't like or agree with something doesn't diminish its value. Cloud can and does use that ridiculously oversized likely incredibly heavy sword with ease in spite of gravity (And really, everyone knows the Japanese are immune to gravity, haven't you ever watched anime?). Limits are canon. Materia is canon, and any materia is fair game, and it all makes perfect sense once you accept that it's a part of the game's canon and the fact that it wouldn't make sense in our reality or that of other games is completely meaningless.FF7 I've played...and semi regret, but Cloud has a single pauldron (the reason for ever having a single pauldron is for using a single hand weapon, cloud uses an improbably large sword), an improbably large sword (seriously, a sword should not be as wide as your torso), he has access to materia (Which I could write a novel on why they make no sense), and uses limit breaks (which raise all sorts of questions when you stop and think about each of them). He could be a contender, but his fighting would rely on his materia selection since he puts them in his sword...or arm...whatever, and is limited to what ones he could pick (not the summon all or magic all ones, those are cop outs). Also, his sword would be likely ineffective due to a little thing called GRAVITY.
The gunblade doesn't fire bullets at all. The gun component is used to make the blade vibrate to cause its slashes to do more damage (don't ask me how the **** that works), the design is fine for that. Again, nothing wrong with limits. Just beastly attacks that would take significant skill to master.A lot of people call bullshit on Squall's weapon, the Gunblade. Don't get me wrong, I do too, but there have been fencing swords that had flintlock pistols built into the hilt. They fired one bullet, and were a bitch to reload, but they worked. Squall's gunblade on the other hand is just plain impractical. The gun should not be pointed out of the sword. the barrel is in the blade, making it impossible to make a cut through anything. And if they were in a sword fight, the barrel would get dented, not allowing any bullet to pass through. He can also draw magic from enemies, essentially copying their spells (not exactly, I know, but still). He again has limit breaks which still make little to no sense.
His normal abilities are pretty meh. But in Trance, he's one beastly mother****er. He was made to be stronger than Kuja, so I think he's certainly entitled to first place for potential power, if he was willing to do what Kuja did to obtain it. As is, I'd probably agree he comes in close behind Terra.I haven't played FF9 (going by FF wiki page again), but he is of course a thief, able to steal minor items, yet that would probably not do much good in battle (well he could steal materia). His skill abilities would most likely come in handy for tricking most foes, and I'm sure that dyne could possibly be on par with Terra's esper. his agility could also outdo a certain whiny, blonde haired, oval blade wielding, water polo athlete.
Looks like it has a blade to me (but then sharpness doesnt seem to matter much in FF games, since you can have your sword pass cleanly through an enemy's body and they'll still be standing in one piece... but whatever). As for appearing to be filled with water, it's made of some unknown fancy metal from a fantasy world. It doesn't have to make sense. If it did, it wouldn't really be Fantasy, now would it? And Brotherhood's appearance is a pretty weak complaint anyways, you can change your weapons, and Caladbolg is one I can safely say I'd rather not be hit with. Though his primary Sphere grid is mainly time magic and speed, he's not limitted to that. Anybody in X can learn anything, and boost any skill. And unlike tactics characters, doesn't have to be in a certain class to use them, so Tidus (along with the rest of the X cast) outside of only using swords, is every bit as versatile as any Tactics character (inb4 I call bs on that). If you'd rather just stick to his primary sphere grid, Tidus is built for speed. Eaten a few Quick hits, thoroughly pissed of, but glad it's finally your turn next? LOLNO DELAY BUSTER HAHA! In all honestly, he could likely compete with pretty much any other FF swordsman, just because of his speed and the sheer number of hits the annoying the shit's gonna get in on you. Also, as a blitzball player, the guy's gotta have some ridiculous stamina, and swimming builds up strength pretty fast. Whiny and obnoxious? Maybe. Weak? Absolutely not. The fact that you don't like him or things that are canon in X does not make him a bad character.Tidus is my bane. not because he could kill me, I could terrorize this bastard. I could go on a rant on why I despise him, but that's not the purpose of this thread. His sword is absolutely useless. It is not sharp, it's not made for cutting, and it's filled with water. actually, it's not useless, you know what you can use it for? fishing for whales. It has a giant hook on it, what more do you need?! He also has "Shields". I say "Shields", because they are too small to be a buckler, and are shaped in ridiculous ways. His spells are primarily time magic, haste and slow which could assist him slightly, but his moronic weapon would most likely just piss off his enemy. His other attacks are actually specifically designed to piss off the enemy. Provoke, cheer, delay attack, these would all drive me into a water polo celebrity induced killing frenzy. but he would most likely use Flee to escape. Yes, he did defeat god...but it was honestly the easiest boss I've fought in a FF game.
Most FF characters have comparable versatility. All FF characters fight and defeat increasingly stronger bosses and ultimately defeat a villain whose powers are generally so ridiculously awesome, that their deafeat seemed impossible untl it happened. All FF characters learn more abilities throughout the game. Most FF characters an learn some form of healing magic. Most of some means of self enhancement, and most can learn Ultima.Now for Ramza. Ramza was raised a swordsman, taught how to fight since a young age by his family, and training with his best friend Delita. Once he was admitted into the academy there, he learned the basic Squire abilities, and once he left, he learned new abilities to add to his squire job. He has learned to master 22 forms of combat and magic, putting him at least on par with the heroes from FF 2, 3, 4, and 5. In his crusade to rescue his sister, he has faced down several demons, more powerful than the last, ultimately leading up to a possessed son of god. That's right, Super Doom Jesus. But his true strength lies in his original job, the Squire. Since he didn't graduate from the academy in Gariland, he was unable to become a holy knight with access to the holy sword. instead, he left and denounced his noble name, adopting his mother's maiden name. over the course of his travel,s he eventually learns several new skills. Wish would heal his allies at the cost of half of the healed amount, Shout increases his speed and magical and physical prowess, and Ultima which is the spell that he must survive from in order to learn. once he learns it, he can use this destructive spell for good.
He's not a bad hero by any means, but he really hasn't done all that much out of the ordinary. Certainly not things that can compare with Terra taking on hoardes of enemies alone and winning or Zidane being created with powers greater than a guy who wipes the face of a planet with one spell.
Last edited by Heartless Angel; 02-22-2011 at 02:36 AM.
For Our Lord Sheogorath, without Whom all Thought would be linear and all Feeling would be fleeting. Blessed are the Madmen, for they hold the keys to secret knowledge. Blessed are the Phobic, always wary of that which would do them harm. Blessed are the Obsessed, for their courses are clear. Blessed are the Addicts, may they quench the thirst that never ebbs. Blessed are the Murderous, for they have found beauty in the grotesque. Blessed are the Firelovers, for their hearts are always warm. Blessed are the Artists, for in their hands the impossible is made real. Blessed are the Musicians, for in their ears they hear the music of the soul. Blessed are the Sleepless, as they bask in wakeful dreaming. Blessed are the Paranoid, ever-watchful for our enemies. Blessed are the Visionaries, for their eyes see what might be. Blessed are the Painlovers, for in their suffering, we grow stronger. Blessed is the Madgod, who tricks us when we are foolish, punishes us when we are wrong, tortures us when we are unmindful, and loves us in our imperfection.
Heartless wins.
Flawless victory.
Fatality!
Edit: Oh and, the sword, squalls.
Ever shoot a S&W 500 without the suppressing agent? Or fired a 12 gauge? Well, the kickback, recoil. It uses that to increase it's torque upon impact.
Last edited by Angel of Iniquity; 02-22-2011 at 03:47 AM.
Your pathetic existence will shut down. I will make your lives end in ruin. Fear me, as you fear death. Not a threat, not a promise, but what must be finished. 7 final arcs...
...Okay, that makes his weapon even LESS practical. all it'd do is vibrate the gun quickly, making it harder for him to hold, not the opponent in a clash.
Well, it certainly would need some training, which he has extensively.
Your pathetic existence will shut down. I will make your lives end in ruin. Fear me, as you fear death. Not a threat, not a promise, but what must be finished. 7 final arcs...
You only hit the trigger during the slash, after its already entered the victim's body, so weapon clashes would have no impact on this.
For Our Lord Sheogorath, without Whom all Thought would be linear and all Feeling would be fleeting. Blessed are the Madmen, for they hold the keys to secret knowledge. Blessed are the Phobic, always wary of that which would do them harm. Blessed are the Obsessed, for their courses are clear. Blessed are the Addicts, may they quench the thirst that never ebbs. Blessed are the Murderous, for they have found beauty in the grotesque. Blessed are the Firelovers, for their hearts are always warm. Blessed are the Artists, for in their hands the impossible is made real. Blessed are the Musicians, for in their ears they hear the music of the soul. Blessed are the Sleepless, as they bask in wakeful dreaming. Blessed are the Paranoid, ever-watchful for our enemies. Blessed are the Visionaries, for their eyes see what might be. Blessed are the Painlovers, for in their suffering, we grow stronger. Blessed is the Madgod, who tricks us when we are foolish, punishes us when we are wrong, tortures us when we are unmindful, and loves us in our imperfection.
Actually, the only reason why you have Cloud pretty much leaping into the air is because, after Final Fantasy VII, most powerful people pretty much got the ability to levitate, cut spells in half and whatnot. Crisis Core shows that pretty neatly in the cutscene where you had Sephy, Genesis and Angeal duking it out with each other, and they were doing all those mad things. That wasn't on the original game, but the devs wanted that after noticing that the FF VII Compendium needed...something, I dunno exactly what but apparently it needed something.
Again, you're noticing things in terms of "main" characters, when what I mention is that you're leading a platoon at most. I call it "guerrilla squad" because they aren't an official army (Ramza split off from the Beoulve, and thus from the Hokuten/Northern Sky Knights) and they're smaller than a platoon or higher unit group. However, what you get in-game doesn't really represent the forces Ramza had under command. Face it: no matter how many people you get, a 100 on 1 battle will be won by the one with higher numbers, conservation of Ninjitsu be damned. And it's expected that you'll have more than the 18/24 unit limit the game has. You're expected to have at least a few knights, healers, archers, possibly a few ninjas, black mages, and even some squires and chemists, because just about every other army in the game does. It's just that, for purposes of beating the game, you're only tasked with dealing with a group so small it really can't be called a platoon or lesser group, but big enough so as to be more than an adventuring group (since you aren't adventuring as much as you're actually going on missions). In fact, there's only two points that really sum what Ramza and co. are: either an adventurer's guild or a guerrilla squad. And since they're less of a group looking for adventures, a guerrilla squad is appropriate.While in all the other Final Fantasies, it's said that a group of people with all given identites defeated the final menace. In Tactics, Ramza was always Acknowledged as the true hero, while the other people weren't even given any lines after they're recruited. I'm not sure if Arazlam even mentioned any other people helping him, including the story characters. That was all implicating that Ramza possibly turned down all the offers from others like Agrias and Rafa. So story wise, Ramza kicked Altima's ass solo.
Now for gameplay wise. Lets say that Ramza picked out four generic characters rather than people important to previous plot lines, monsters, or side quests since they weren't integral to the plot after their time in the spotlight. So Ramza trained these four nobodies to become ass kicking warriors that took down super doom Jesus. He somehow mastered 22 forms of combat and magic, passed down those teachings to a bunch of other people, getting their ranks in line, and taught them the sacred arts of demon killing and slain a malevolent church spirit bent on total destruction.
As a swordsman, Ramza defeated Gafgarion, a dark knight, in single combat while his allies fought against the enemy soldiers outside the gate, and stood his ground against Wiegraf before he becomes Velias. That's pretty much all I got unless someone can prove me wrong (or try).
On training: recall that Ramza didn't really master several types of combat; at most, he can truly master 2, and cherry-pick from others. Most of the classes he takes are classes taken by other Final Fantasy characters, most namely the Warriors of Light from FF3 and the new Warriors of Dawn from FF5. What you COULD argue, though, is that you have people that might have trained a bit on the profession and eventually become a member of said profession; Ramza doesn't even has to TRAIN them, he merely leads them.
Which is the point, really. Ramza is a commander character, not an adventurer at the same degree as Cloud or Squall or Tidus or Zidane. He's a knight (without a lord to follow, though), but he's no Cecil, nor a Steiner nor a Cyan. Recall that he's a knight in title (even if, again, he has no lord to follow), not a "knight" in profession; some "knights" are no more than aristocrats with some combat training but no combat experience, and in the case of Ramza, he's a Knight because he leads a company, squad, or whatever you desire to call his group. He might be quite skilled, but in the end, he's more of a leader than a warrior; heck, his skill list shows he's more of a commander than a warrior, since aside from Scream and Ultima he really doesn't have powerful attack techniques, unlike Agrias' sword skills or Mustadio's combat tactics.
In fact, if you want to go to the very source of his power, you have to consider the following; without your interference, what would Ramza really be? Without the player's interference, Cecil would remain as a Dark Knight, or probably progress as a Paladin, but probably never get Excalibur; without the player's interference, Bartz wouldn't be much more than a simple adventurer; without the player's interference, Terra would be the same half-Esper character with the same magical potential and combat skill as she would have had, but probably you'd have had Celes be far more skilled at the sword and probably they would both be fighting for the Empire. Without the player's interference, you have to consider Ramza for what his main class is; Squire. And to be frank, without a secondary ability to work it off, Ramza isn't very surprising as a Squire, even if he has the ability to equip special stuff except axes.
Furthermore: compare Ramza with only his Squire abilities versus Cloud with at least his first two techniques. In the very game, you see how the techniques would work; Cloud would have to charge up a bit his attacks, but he might manage to get some solid attacks from his Limit Breaks; Ramza, on the other hand, would try to Scream his way into oblivion and hoping Cloud doesn't pin him with Finishing Touch or else he's toast. That's about the closest comparison you can make between characters, and you have to admit that Cloud is kinda weak there because he doesn't have full access to whatever Materia he had.
So...regarding his victories against the Lucavi? He might have had a hand on that victory, but it was mostly because of his commanding skill rather than his own hand. Even if he has four or five nameless soldiers with several magical spells and special weapons under his command, Ramza behaves more like a commander than a frontline warrior; had he been alone, as he did twice, he would surely meet his match. And heck; you do that twice. Notice that both battles are some of the most difficult in the game, and for good reason? The last battle against Gaffgarion has the choice to allow you to open the gate to make things fairer; in the case of Wiegraf, you really need to push your luck a bit or he can end your career in two turns max. And once he turns into Velius/Belias, he still has a pretty strong challenge because the Archaeodaemons he summons aren't easy as pie. Tell me, had you been on the same level as they, would you have the same luck? Quite probably it was level-grinding what saved the day, and quite probably it was Ramza as Monk which did the work; not as a Squire unless you've grinded enough.
And Cyclops is kind of a stronger version of Titan, in any case.
In case you didn't notice; if Ramza is awesome because he can learn abilities from every other class, Bartz as Freelancer eats him for breakfast. Because, in case you hadn't noticed, Freelancers learn all passive skills of all classes except the Berzerker's automatic Berserk ability. So that means that by going for ALL classes, not only do you get their ability bonuses (and ONLY their ability bonuses), but also nifty stuff as the ability to equip pretty much all weapons and armor, Dual Wield, Cover, Shirahadori and so forth. And then, he only needs to take one or two abilities while at that. Does the concept of "Rapid Fire Dual Wield Spellblades" rings a bell? Because that's the game's exploit (much like Vanish/X-Zone on FF6, Knights of the Round in FF7, The End on FF8, and...uh, I'd say Shock on FF9), in any case. So you'd have to place Bartz AND COMPANY before Ramza, if only because mechanically they have greater potential. But then you get the following:
FF1: a group composed of a Knight, a Ninja, and your choice between White Wizard, Black Wizard and Red Wizard.
FF2: Firion, Maria, Guy and Leon with level 16+ on all spells, weapons and with 255 on all stats.
FF3: Sage or Ninja. Your choice of four. If using FF3DS, then you also get the even more broken Onion Knight. Heck...OnionKid from the original FF3 gets max stats in any case.
FF4: Probably the hardest, but Cecil with Excalibur. And Edge with the Spoon.
FF5: All Warriors of Dawn with all classes mastered, all on Mime, all with Rapid Fire/Barrage and Spellblade as class skills aside from...I dunno, one summon and one Red Magic to top it off?
FF6: All characters undergoing the same exact Esper training; Bahamut, Odin, Golem and so forth, so that their stats all reach 255 real quick.
FF7: All characters with all special weapons and everyone with Master Materia.
FF8: All characters with loads of the best junctioned spells, with such an amount of abilities that they effectively have access to all abilities at the same time.
FF9: Again, probably the hardest because it's quite traditional, but Steiner with Excalibur II. That should be about it.
FF10: All characters with a full Sphere Grid, modified so that pretty much every single stat gives +4.
...and so on. And even then, you'd have on each game:
FF2: Again, anyone you like with full stats. Beaten by...
FF3: Any of the kids with Sage or Ninja (or Onion Knight, if you prefer), beaten by...
FF5: Bartz with the stuff mentioned, beaten by...
FF6: Terra in Esper form with all spells, Gem Box, Economizer, Quick and Ultima so that she may fire about 4-6 Ultimas on succession for about 6 MP, beaten by...
FF8: Rinoa in Angel Wing mode, beaten by...
FF10: Yuna with full Sphere Grid and all summons at highest levels, beaten by...
FF13: Lightning in full Crystarium. And so on.
So, going strictly through mechanics doesn't really help because in the end you'll have earlier games with their hardware limitations not really helping, and assuming you get all real nifty stuff and whatnot, so you have to get realistic in any case. While Cloud and Squall might be very strong physically, Terra and Rinoa (with close following by Yuna, Zidane in Trance and probably Rydia) showing their supernatural muscle; in both cases, they outdo Ramza in just about anything. The only one in FFT that can hold a candle to any of these people is, once again, Orland(ea)u, but he's not the main character. Or, if he were alive, Balbanes/Barbaneth, because he was supposed to be Orland(ea)u's equal. So, if you have in the same game someone like Orland(ea)u pretty much driving Ramza to the ground, then you might figure that someone else will run Ramza to the ground.
And believe me, when the very notion of Rinoa in Angel Wing threatens Terra's magical prowess and Zidane's Trance abilities, you might figure that Ramza might not hold a bell against them. Now, if you really want to show Ramza's muscle, imagine him leading all of these people; the very notion of someone like him (or, if we really want to go further, someone like Orland[ea]u leading them) leading a group of people while he provides some moral support might be just about terrifying.
Oh, and while Ramza learns Ultima...Terra also learns Ultima on her own. That's the spell she learns last by her own. Mind that for a while, considering that Ramza's stats (if going strictly on a mechanical sense) make Ultima not the ultimate spell after all.
Delivering scathing wit as a Rogue using Sneak Attack.
Pester me on the Giant in the Playground Forums if you really need me.
The Final Boss Theorem:
'Tis a shame I can only place names now...:
Nomu-baka, this is FAR from over...:
Well I can tell when I'm beat. Or at least too tired to formulate a more effective argument. Never underestimate the nerdy researching of Otaku. I quit this thread.
It doesn't have to be research, it could be experience.
If you were to throw away the inability to accept other FF titles, you may also be able to understand that most characters are greatly above average and all have the science of fantasy on their side. As well as FFT I believe, but, I think you misused the word Otaku lol.
Your pathetic existence will shut down. I will make your lives end in ruin. Fear me, as you fear death. Not a threat, not a promise, but what must be finished. 7 final arcs...
One needn't be an Otaku or a nerd to research, and one doesn't need to research to forumulate an argument to combat yours, as it was based almost entirely on your bias for Ramza, and against anyone else. Preferences are fine, but they don't hold up too well against facts.
For Our Lord Sheogorath, without Whom all Thought would be linear and all Feeling would be fleeting. Blessed are the Madmen, for they hold the keys to secret knowledge. Blessed are the Phobic, always wary of that which would do them harm. Blessed are the Obsessed, for their courses are clear. Blessed are the Addicts, may they quench the thirst that never ebbs. Blessed are the Murderous, for they have found beauty in the grotesque. Blessed are the Firelovers, for their hearts are always warm. Blessed are the Artists, for in their hands the impossible is made real. Blessed are the Musicians, for in their ears they hear the music of the soul. Blessed are the Sleepless, as they bask in wakeful dreaming. Blessed are the Paranoid, ever-watchful for our enemies. Blessed are the Visionaries, for their eyes see what might be. Blessed are the Painlovers, for in their suffering, we grow stronger. Blessed is the Madgod, who tricks us when we are foolish, punishes us when we are wrong, tortures us when we are unmindful, and loves us in our imperfection.
lol, that's what I had to learn first hand haha.
Tho I am FF8 fanboy and will probably take FF8's side on most occasions, I would have to say that Bartz, with all abilities, including summoning, master swordsman(gladiator, Knight, mystic knight), ultimate sage(time, black, white, red for the hell of it, necro) brave blade, and the mimic ability, others can't hold a match to him, unless you take in consider the powerful magic users, IE Yuna, Terra, Rydia, Rinoa and so on.
Your pathetic existence will shut down. I will make your lives end in ruin. Fear me, as you fear death. Not a threat, not a promise, but what must be finished. 7 final arcs...
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