Final Fantasy can't do villains?

[lmiddleham]

This thought just struck me. As much as I love the series I just don't think they do particularly good villains.

The NES games - all the villains here didn't have much personality or story to talk about
4 - Golbez was cool and had some great scenes but he was a puppet of Zemus - a pretty faceless villain
5 - Exdeath. He looked pretty cool but he was nothing special.
6 - Kefka. An exception. The best villain of the series. Great quotes, crazy personality and brilliant scenes. He worked his way up throughout the game to be ruler of the planet for a time.
7 - Sephiroth. Another exception. My first FF villain. Great image, cool backstory and great boss fights. Madly popular with fans.
8 - Ultimecia. Anonymous for much of the game and when she turns up she hasn't got much of a personality.
9 - Kuja. I've not played this all the way through so I can't judge. I hear he is pretty cool but then Necron appears right at the end ala Golbez/Zemus
10 - Sin is impressive but is just a puppet. Braskas Final Aeon is just meh.
12 - Vayne. Just so bland.
13 - Not played.

Too harsh? What does everyone think?

[noxious.sunshine]

I agree on the Vayne sentiment wholeheartedly. I played 12 for the first time over the last few months, got every Esper except for Ultima or whatever, and beat it at like level 56 easily. I found the story behind 12 very interesting, but the end was pretty anticlimatic for me. I didn't expect it to be so easy and then it was and I was just left feeling so ... abandoned. If that makes sense.

The others, I'll have to get back to you on.

However, as a side note, I think you should youtube the Rinoa/Ultimecia theory. I think FF8 leaves a lot up to the imagination... Like the 'Squall's Dead" theory and the Rinoa/Ultimecia link.

[lmiddleham]

I've read about the theories in the past. A while ago now.
They're interesting and entertaining but far fetched.
It you have to have theories that far fetched to give a villain substance then something isn't right.
Kefka didn't need these gimmicks. Just a crazy laugh did the trick for him!

[Kurt Zisa]

I like Vayne being quite plain when compared to the other villains, because he was a lot more human than most of them. In his first battle he attacks with punches, it's not until he absorbs the nethisite (or whatever it was, it's been a while) that he starts to have all theses crazy attacks and powers.

I'll post something about the other villains once I can think of something to say.

[Xanatos]

First of all, Vayne is by far the best villain in franchise mostly because he did in fact accomplish his goal, and not for a short notice, plus the way he did it, lots of sacrifice on his part, without beating around the bush. Secondly, it's sad you would consider Sephiroth to be a good villain, well done character perhaps, but nowhere near a good villain.

[loaf]

Can't make a villain? By what decree? Their motives? Accomplishments?

Exdeath wanted to bring the universe back to the zero world, where nothing exists, even Exdeath.
Kefka did what he wanted to do, then got stopped. He basically got rid of hope.
Kuja did exactly what he wanted to do. It was then halted and fixed. He destoryed the crystal, all form of life.
Sin? More like Yu Yevon. I can't really get into it right now. I'm at work.
Vayne? Shit vayne did exactly what he wanted to do which was free mankind from the control of the Occuria.
Orphan? They have a purpose. They do that purpose. Find the gateway to the invisible world, so they are going to open the door WIDE OPEN QUICK with nothing but millions of deaths.
I'd add more but I don't feel like it.


and Sephiroth? Sephiroth isn't even the real villain. It's Jenova who uses Sephiroth image. It always was Jenova and always will be Jenova - The Calamity from the Skies

[Kurt Zisa]

*click* Just remembered the reason why I like Vayne. After you defeat his first two forms, he flees and basically tells Venat "I'm sorry I wasn't good enough, I failed you."

I was amazed to hear thar, you don't often get villains admitting that they failed, it put him in a new light for me.

And then he fuses with parts of the Bahamut and blows stuff up.

[Xanatos]

I was amazed to hear thar, you don't often get villains admitting that they failed, it put him in a new light for me.

There's a scene where Vayne shows genuine regret and guilt for everything he has done and will do, being a mere human, flawed, not being able to reach his goal more peacefully... another reason among many why I like Vayne.

[SuperSabin]

This thought just struck me. As much as I love the series I just don't think they do particularly good villains.

The NES games - all the villains here didn't have much personality or story to talk about
4 - Golbez was cool and had some great scenes but he was a puppet of Zemus - a pretty faceless villain
5 - Exdeath. He looked pretty cool but he was nothing special.
6 - Kefka. An exception. The best villain of the series. Great quotes, crazy personality and brilliant scenes. He worked his way up throughout the game to be ruler of the planet for a time.
7 - Sephiroth. Another exception. My first FF villain. Great image, cool backstory and great boss fights. Madly popular with fans.
8 - Ultimecia. Anonymous for much of the game and when she turns up she hasn't got much of a personality.
9 - Kuja. I've not played this all the way through so I can't judge. I hear he is pretty cool but then Necron appears right at the end ala Golbez/Zemus
10 - Sin is impressive but is just a puppet. Braskas Final Aeon is just meh.
12 - Vayne. Just so bland.
13 - Not played.

Too harsh? What does everyone think?

To start, the NES era bosses actually had plenty of personality and story. You couldn't see much because it was all done in the background, left to the imagination of the player. Garland wanted to send the world into chaos in an endless cycle of destruction which was pretty bad, he was the incarnate of the evil in the world.

The Emperor of Palmecia had an entire kingdom destroyed and taken over and he plotted to take over the other kingdoms in the world as well. When he was defeated later in the game, he became the ruler of a kingdom in pandemonium which is pretty freaky.

The Cloud of Darkness seeked to use the powers of the void to send the whole world into darkness. Don't remember the rest of the motive as I've yet to play FF III all the way.

If you have played FFIV DS or the mobile phone version, you would have noticed that Golbez actually had a backstory. He was consumed by evil due to being jealous of his brother and left his brother for dead. He did many terrible things under the influence of Zemus especially taking crystals from different kingdoms by force.

Exdeath used his influence to unseal himself from the world and plotted to send the world into the void. He started by going to his castle in Galuf's world and launched an attack on the bridge there and captured the main characters. Eventually when the worlds came together he sent villages and kingdoms into the void including the main character's hometown.

Sephiroth is not the actual threat like loaf said. The real sephiroth died as it was displayed in Crisis Core and the main game of FF VII. Jenova basically brought forth a replica which she used to threaten the planet.

Ultimecia had a very huge role. She possessed sorcerers of different eras and used them to fulfill her goals in each era. She plotted to compress time where everyone in the earth would cease to exist and she would be the only one who was suited to live in such a world.

Yu Yevon is the main threat in the world of FFX. It possesses the aeons to become evil. None of the religious practitioners in the fayth of yevon were expecting yu yevon to be a corrupt religion. Because of that there was an endless cycle of destruction and each chosen final aeon would become sin.

Vayne had motive alright, he took over Rabanastre and managed to have the king killed off with one of its knights being to blame and left Ashe with no proof of her birthright. If I recall correctly he sought to become a one man empire similar to kefka just without the god-like bit.

[Halie]

I really don't feel like Sin can actually be considered a villain, or Braska's Final Aeon for that matter. Nor do I consider Yu Yevon a villain, if you wanna get really technical. I mean, it states in game that he's neither good nor evil. My personal definition of a villain is someone who knows they're evil, and either -likes- it or genuinely believes their actions are what's right, and I don't think Yu Yevon falls into that category because I don't think he's actually conscious of his actions. He just summons. Seymour is actually the most present villain in the game, even if just a sub-villain. He's not exactly my favourite character, but he definitely has an interesting back-story. He's not a puppet of any kind, he's just extremely tormented.

I honestly think the most villainous aspect of the game is actually religion itself and the people at the forefront of it, particularly Maester Mika and Seymour, but mostly the religion of Yevon and how it controls the people. So not a physical villain, but still a good one, and definitely different and realistic in comparison to other villains. Yeah, there might be lost of magical aspects to the game and other things that make it unrealistic considering it's a fantasy set in another universe, but if you strip all that back and think of the religious aspect itself and what it did to the world, it is pretty accurate commentary on our actual world and I don't know about you but, I think that's pretty successful at being scary. Might not be everyone's cup of tea, but I think it's awesome.

Sorry if that was a messy ramble.

[Crescent]

Most people still don't even understand Final Fantasy VII and they prove it again and again and again. First of all, Sephiroth consciously synthesised with Jenova’s cells to complete his revival, his goal was to control the Planet by means of directing the ultimate destructive magic Meteor towards it. Put simply, He wanted to damage the planet enough to stir up the natural healing process (the lifestream) and merge his own energy with it so that he could essentially BECOME the planet and create new life as he saw fit. Go back and play the original game (again) n pay attention and for those who haven't...why are you judging...??

*Sees everyone praising FFVII/Sephiroth*

*Jump on Hate bandwagon*

And for the love of Holy. Sephiroth controlled Jenova, one of the abilities he possessed falling into the Lifestream with the head. He manipulated a piece of it to morph into a physical form of himself and kill Aerith/various others. He had it carry out all of his bidding throughout the game from the dead. And if it isnt clear from playing FFVII, the creators Ultimania Omega for FFVII clearly states that Sephiroth was NOT controlled by Jenova; that shit never even crossed my mind during my first playthrough.

And just another one of the MANY things I adore about Sephiroth is that though He was killed multiple times, His spirit will not return to the Lifestream, and remnants of his aggression continue to exist on the Planet.

Its alright that ppl hate on him but get your facts straight first.

Final Fantasy has great villains. Not only what I, and no doubt many other gamers consider to be the best one in the series alone but also one of the best in the history of the entire interactive electronic medium.

Ive been over this time n time again its in another thread in GF if u wanna keep beating this dead horse shit with me.

[the_savior21]

I'm just gonna touch on VIII and X real quick.

Ultimecia is literally present the entire game after Seifers attack on the president of Galbadia. Just because she was possessing another sorceress doesn't mean she isn't there the end of disk two and the scene were ellone sends squall back to the moment that Ultimecia possessed Rinoa and talked to Seifer after battle 2 with edea. Whe she tells him about lunatic pandora he repays with "yes, Ultimecia" proving that she is there and as for disk one and two, the difference between edeas attitude pre battle 2 and post battle 2 proves that she is actually art of the story with edea as a mask. She is there and she has plenty of depth. It's just not revealed right away you need some patience.

And with yu yevon it's like haile said, its not that he is evil persay. Some may define it as such but I believe yu yevon has lost himself in the power of sin and its intent to destroy machina and protect the dream that is zanarkand is all it has anymore he's following his own will from a thousand years ago with the mindset that he is still protecting the people of zanarkand. Still fighting the war that created sin in the first place.seymour is the true villain, he says he wants to become sin to destroy spira. I'm paraphrasing because I just started playing it again and I'm just past luca but if I recall that's the reason he wants to marry tuna is so that he may become sin and bring mass destruction to spira. Sounds pretty villainy to me.

Iv never been disappointed in a villain of final fantasy maybe your villain standards are too high?

[Xanatos]

First time I actually agree with Crescent regarding Sephiroth, makes me feel uncomfortable , I'm not sure how those two came to conclusion that Jenova was in charge when it's just the opposite, would love if either one would clarify his point.

To start, the NES era bosses actually had plenty of personality and story. You couldn't see much because it was all done in the background, left to the imagination of the player

If you have to imagine, add more personality and story to certain character yourself, then no, that character does not have plenty of personality and story to begin with. Even more so if there are no clues, references, guidelines regarding certain character, something you could work with, foundation to imagine and add more to that character, which sadly was the case with FF villains on NES.

[loaf]

It may be Sephiroth but the original influence is Jenova. Jenova caused him to go insane Jenova caused him to go forth with everything. Hell for all we know Jenova just made Sephiroth think all of that. Jenova = The Devil.

It's like with Necron except a little different.

[Xanatos]

Half of things you just said were never ever addressed during Final Fantasy VII, lots of assumptions on your part. How exactly did Jenova make Sephiroth crazy, how is she remotely similar to Necron?

[loaf]

Oh I mean Necron as a villain in the story but not the main villain you are trying to stop.

As for the Seph thing, I'll get into that after work.

[the_savior21]

Idk I'm gonna have to agree with crescent about sephiroth. The game is not my forte at least not compared to viii and x but from playing the game a few times and the readings I have done on the game, Definatly agree with crescent

[Crescent]

It may be Sephiroth but the original influence is Jenova. Jenova caused him to go insane Jenova caused him to go forth with everything. Hell for all we know Jenova just made Sephiroth think all of that. Jenova = The Devil.

Huh??

You either completely disregarded/ignored what I very clearly stated in my previous post or it may have been another case of TL;DR for you.

Hojo:
He's a Sephiroth clone I created after the real Sephiroth died five years
ago. Jenova cells and Mako, with my knowledge and skills, have been combined
with science and nature to bring him to life. ...I'm not wild about the failure
part, but the Jenova Reunion Theory has now been proven. You see, even if
Jenova's body is dismembered, it will eventually become one again. That's what
is meant by Jenova's Reunion to start. Five years have passed, and now the
Clones have began to return. I thought the Clones would begin to gather at
Midgar where Jenova is stored. But my predictions were not entirely correct.
Jenova itself began to move away from the Shinra Building. But being a genius
that I am, I soon figured it out. You see it was all Sephiroth's doing.
Sephiroth is not just content to diffuse his will into the Lifestream; he wants
to manipulate the Clones itself.

It is also indicative of Jenova being under the control of Sephiroth. Jenova is calling Sephiroth master herself so that's right there in the game and correct. There's proof of it there if you look for it. Hojo and Jenova say so themselves.

If you read the reports in Nibelheim and listen to Hojo, you know Sephiroth Clones are merely the survivors of Nibelheim who were used in the Jenova Reunion experiment. Seriously, the proof in the game is right there. All the Ultimania booklets do is cut it up into bite sizes and feed it to you.

All the clarification/answers you'll find in the original game.

[lmiddleham]

Thanks for the comments guys. I’d have replied earlier but when I try to login on my phone it just loops me back to the logon page

I’m really surprised that I have to defend Sephiroth and everyone is defending Vayne.

I enjoyed FF12 and hunting Marks and Espers but I just found I had very little motivation to go after Vayne and defeat him. Why should I hate him, why should I care?

As for Sephiroth, how can you say he’s not a great villain. From his sanctuary at the North Cave he broke Jenova out of Shinra building killing many, impaled the Midgar Zolom, murdered a key character and was happy to summon meteor and cause untold damage just to gain godlike powers for himself. Or his projection of himself did in some cases.
BUT I haven’t played any of the spinoffs. I’ve heard that they attempted to explain and expand an already complex story and may have diluted Sephiroths character as a result.
Some of the people arguing the case for Sephiroth have done it far better than I could.

In regards to some of the other comments I think a lot of the villains in the background may have done some great villainous deeds but they’re just too anonymous for a lot of the game. The NES villains fit here although to be fair, the NES didn't have too much to work with compared to modern games.

Perhaps I should be blaming the storyline rather than the villains. I guess I enjoyed Kefka and Sephiroth so much because you’re constantly pursuing them and battling them throughout the game unlike say Ultimecia who you only find out very late on is the puppet master. She may be there possessing other sorceresses but you can't see her. You don't have a tangible target to hunt down.
Golbez is also great because you constantly purse and interact with him through the game, it just turns out he’s not the ultimate villain.

[loaf]

I do want to start a Jenova Witness argument

bbl

Sorry Crescent I didn't read your post due to me posting these at work. I've been doing another playthru to clear everything up.

[Rowan]

If you are allowed to use information from spin offs and magazines about ff7, isntead of just ff7 itself, then I'm allowed to conclude that ultimecia is in fact Rinoa because of the overwhelming amount of evidence presented in spin off titles (especially dissidia where ultemecias weapons are Rinoa's weapons). I'm happy either way. But I think the true story is always the original story. While I remember hojo giving that speech before your (true) final battle with him, i dont think its as you put it. Nowhere does it CLEARLY state that Sephiroth was controlling JENOVA herself, merely the cells that were injected into experiments. Also, nowhere did it state that Jenova was controlling Sephiroth. Sephiroth went mad, and acted on his own will. Probably the biggest tantrum I've ever seen.

Sephiroth - "These guys are monsters"
cloud - "hey, wern't you created this way too"
Sephiroth - "im going to kill every ****ing person on this planet including you"

Im not disagreeing with you about Sephiroth controlling Jenova, im just saying its not made clear in the game.

[Xanatos]

Why should I hate him, why should I care?

Vayne has somewhat different motives compared to other villains, Vayne's the type of villain you may in a way sympathize with.

As for Sephiroth, how can you say he’s not a great villain. From his sanctuary at the North Cave he broke Jenova out of Shinra building killing many, impaled the Midgar Zolom, murdered a key character and was happy to summon meteor and cause untold damage just to gain godlike powers for himself. Or his projection of himself did in some cases.
BUT I haven’t played any of the spinoffs. I’ve heard that they attempted to explain and expand an already complex story and may have diluted Sephiroths character as a result.
Some of the people arguing the case for Sephiroth have done it far better than I could.

Well, even though Sephiroth is this God-like creature according to fans he was still defeated by Cloud numerous times, wanna hear official reason as to why messed up Cloud managed to do that, Sephiroth underestimated his opponent... three times... in a row. That's pretty stupid for a so called brilliant tactician, seeing as he made borderline laughable decision I'm not sure he was brilliant tactician to begin with. Not to mention he had more attempts than any other villain in franchise, failed miserably every single time. I see him as a Bond type of villain, perhaps even Dr. Evil... he's also kinda Kefka rip-off when you think about it.

I guess I enjoyed Kefka and Sephiroth so much because you’re constantly pursuing them and battling them throughout the game unlike say Ultimecia who you only find out very late on is the puppet master. She may be there possessing other sorceresses but you can't see her. You don't have a tangible target to hunt down.

That does not make her a bad villain, far from it, she's quite brilliant, did plenty in a highly limited situation. Although I wish she had more depth, shame though Ultimecia - Rinoa theory is not official.

[Rowan]

That does not make her a bad villain, far from it, she's quite brilliant, did plenty in a highly limited situation. Although I wish she had more depth, shame though Ultimecia - Rinoa theory is not official.

Its not - not official. Square never spoke about it. Only rumors about square denying it, turned out to be false. The fact they dont respond to fan speculation with words, but rather for example make ultimecia in spin offs use rinoa's weapons, is an indication of something.

[the_savior21]

I like to believe there is more to the Ultimecia/Rinoa theory then square gives credit. Just because of the fact that they are trapped in a time loop. Well that time loop had to start somewhere and it is my belief along with others that that loop started because of rinoa. Of coarse there is no concrete proof but that is my opinion.

She is brilliant period she had a magnificently elaborate plan and she had a loyal and powerful puppet in Seifer running her show. If you recall when Rinoa leaves the lunar base to free Adel from her sealed prison, the astronauts returning to the lunar base are talking about how everything is falling into place like someone planned it. She actually achieved her goal SeeD was just prepared.

[loaf]

I like to say that both Sephiroth and Jenova were working with one another but both thought they have full control.

I've been playing it again so I'm keeping my mind state with the current game events. I love getting into this shit so much. My friend just beat FFVII and I told him to play it again to see all the hints of Cloud not being "Cloud" for most the game because then I can go crazy on him to play others haha. He went through the game rather quick too.

[Xanatos]

Its not - not official. Square never spoke about it. Only rumors about square denying it, turned out to be false. The fact they dont respond to fan speculation with words, but rather for example make ultimecia in spin offs use rinoa's weapons, is an indication of something.

This entire time I actually thought Square officially shoot down this theory... this, this makes me happy.

[Heartless Angel]

Vayne has somewhat different motives compared to other villains, Vayne's the type of villain you may in a way sympathize with.

I'd call Vayne more of an antihero than a villain.

Well, even though Sephiroth is this God-like creature according to fans he was still defeated by Cloud numerous times, wanna hear official reason as to why messed up Cloud managed to do that, Sephiroth underestimated his opponent... three times... in a row. That's pretty stupid for a so called brilliant tactician, seeing as he made borderline laughable decision I'm not sure he was brilliant tactician to begin with. Not to mention he had more attempts than any other villain in franchise, failed miserably every single time.

Actually, he wasn't. In their first, 'fight', Seph knocked Cloud away like trash, proceeded to fight Zack, possibly the closest thing he ever had to an equal that wasn't created from Jenova cells. After being weakened by his fight with a real soldier, and distracted by the object of his own obsession, Cloud stabbed him the back with the buster sword. All's fair in love and war, sure, but you can hardly call that Cloud winning in a fight. He took an opportunity for a cheap shot on an opponent somebody else wore down. Second fight, no, Cloud didn't do shit. He and 7 friends collectively fought and delayed Sephiroth, at which point the planet itself turned on him, weaponizing the lifestream in its own defense. What Sephiroth underestimated was the wrath of the writers who needed a happy ending. When Cloud fought one on one, that was a battle in his own mind. What he was fighting wasn't Sephiroth, it was Sephiroth's will trying to finish Cloud off when Seph's body was already destroyed. Cloud's crowning achievement was surviving a battle with a memory.

The only fight Cloud ever won against Sephiroth was in AC< when Sephroth returned in the body of Kadaj. We don't know if his power was even intact in this state, but his demise was due to underestimating Cloud. But at this point, this is excusable. The last time he saw Cloiud was years ago. Back then, Seph was at full power. And Cloud was 3 years of fighting weaker. Cloud changed his fighting style when learning to use the Tsurugi. He had new moves Seph wasn't prepared for. Of course at this point it didn't matter, because Sephiroth was already immortal. The only time Seph was defeated due to underestimating Cloud's ability in a fight, was when he no longer had a life to live, or a plan to complete. At that point his only purpose was to torment Cloud, and win or lose, he did. His parting words, though Cloud didn't really acknowledge them had to have torn him apart inside. Sephiroth had a unique understanding of Cloud's psyche. He delighted in tormenting him, giving up numerous opportunities to kill him in favor of tormenting him instead. There's sort of a Batman/Joker paradox going on between the two. He can't kill Cloud, because Cloud is the enabler of his sadistic acts. He can't bring himself to truly end his hold on cloud's mind by killing him.

I see him as a Bond type of villain, perhaps even Dr. Evil... he's also kinda Kefka rip-off when you think about it.

Not at all. Kefka was a strategist, a manipulator, a sociopath who preferred to be distant from his targets when possible. He was opportunistic. Sephiroth in sharp contrast preferred to use brute force to get his way. He didn't need to manipulate, gain trust, or sneak around. If he wanted Jenova, he went through the front door of the most heavily guarded building on the planet and up the main stairs in the lobby. Unlike Kefka, he wasn't a sociopath, he was truly mad. He didn't just not value life, he actively hated it. He didn't stay distant and coldly enact plans from afar, he relished in the suffering of every victim, preferring to kill them at close range where he could watch the life fade from their bodies. But he never struck unannounced either, he made sure the enemy knew who was going to kill them. Sephiroth also wasn't an opportunist, he forced his way and cut down all opposition. furthermore, the two were fundamentally different in thier motives, in that Sephiroth believed he was a hero, while Kefka was well aware that he was playing the villain. Their only similarities are being psychopaths with god complexes, and really, that's pretty much true of any RPG villain.

[Rowan]

Not at all. Kefka was a strategist, a manipulator, a sociopath who preferred to be distant from his targets when possible. He was opportunistic. Sephiroth in sharp contrast preferred to use brute force to get his way. He didn't need to manipulate, gain trust, or sneak around.

Sephiroth manipulated cloud and Jenova (supposedly). If it were not for his manipulation of cloud, sephiroth would have never gained the black materia, at least in the sense that could was the one who handed it to him, on 2 seperate occasions. Sephiroth took the form of clouds party members at the northern crater in order to trick them into handing over the black materia, which could be considered as both planning and a display of cunning.

he relished in the suffering of every victim, preferring to kill them at close range where he could watch the life fade from their bodies.

Going on a bit of a tangent there, lol. A true mad man does not take time to appreciate anything of the kind. A sadist on the other hand...

But I tend to think of Sephiroths motivations not only as mad, but as vengful. He wanted to give the planet back to the Cetra, those who suppsedly died when humans came. I tend to believe revenge to be one of the purest of motivations, in the sense that it could never describe someone as being inherintly evil, or good in the eyes of anyone. That is something I always found interesting and mysterious about Sephiroths character.

[Crescent]

If you are allowed to use information from spin offs and magazines about ff7, isntead of just ff7 itself, then I'm allowed to conclude that ultimecia is in fact Rinoa because of the overwhelming amount of evidence presented in spin off titles (especially dissidia where ultemecias weapons are Rinoa's weapons). I'm happy either way. But I think the true story is always the original story. Also, nowhere did it state that Jenova was controlling Sephiroth. Sephiroth went mad, and acted on his own will. Probably the biggest tantrum I've ever seen.

Sephiroth - "These guys are monsters"
cloud - "hey, wern't you created this way too"
Sephiroth - "im going to kill every ****ing person on this planet including you"

Im not disagreeing with you about Sephiroth controlling Jenova, im just saying its not made clear in the game.

It was clear enough because there were still people who didn't think that somehow, Jenova was in control. I'm still waiting for where the game says that Jenova was the one leading Sephiroth around to those who misunderstood.

Just because a lot people draw erroneous conclusions doesn't mean that the source said so. Just because a lot of people didn't bother to pay attention and read doesn't mean its not clear, when you've got Jenova calling Sephy kins MASTER and Hojo saying Sephiroth was behind the whole Reunion. How does that make any sense?

And the story was clear regarding Sephiroth in control. We have Hojo saying it out of his own damn mouth, we have Sephiroth/Jenova revealing itself to be a monster and then calling the real Sephiroth "master" and finally the reports in Nibelheim outlining the Sephiroth Copy Project and how it was an experiment to see if the Reunion was possible.

It's the same thing. Bullshit speculation. People somehow got it in their minds that the alien is really more than the plot said, and gave it way too much importance to the plot. It's merely a conduit of Sephiroth's power. The translation may be shoddy but the actual story makes sense. This isn't like how they accidentally said the Cetra were aliens. All that was said was right and for some reason, a lot of people were either too young or not paying attention when it was all revealed.

Seriously, it just wasnt that hard to grasp Because when the text has Jenova itself calling Sephiroth "Master" the answer is pretty clear. And yeah, shoddy translating but not regarding the Sephiroth Control parts. Honestly, I don't get what's hard to understand with Jenova calling Sephiroth her master, and Hojo saying Sephiroth was the one behind the Reunion. It's clear. How much more do they need to say without making a diagram about it?

Nowhere does it CLEARLY state that Sephiroth was controlling JENOVA herself, merely the cells that were injected into experiments.

That monologue coupled with Jenova saying:

Cloud: He disappeared!?

Tifa: He might still be nearby……

???: Our purpose is to deliver the Black Materia to our master.

Cloud: Our...?

Cid: Hey, hey! What's goin' on?

???: Those who carry Jenova's cells...

Cloud: Master...!?

???: Of course... Sephiroth. Heh, heh, heh...

Is again, indicative of Jenova being under the control of Sephiroth. Unless you think Jenova would call Sephiroth "master" while controlling him. Clearly the "????" in the conversation is Jenova because at that point in the game you realise it wasn't Sephiroth you were chasing, but Jenova assuming the form of Sephiroth.

You could argue the "????" why it didnt it just friggin say 'JENOVA'... Oh maybe because they wanted you to realise it was Jenova when you actually started fighting it. The surprise was meant to be that you're facing off against a Sephiroth referring to himself in the third person only to discover...

It's Jenova itself.

That was the plot twist regarding the whole "Chasing Sephiroth across the globe" shtick.

AND also after that dialogue happens, who is it that's staring you in the face trying to kill you? JENOVA. It ain't a Copy or a someone else. It's Jenova. And then the party clearly states that they weren't following my hunny, but Jenova. C'mon.

And again, the game clearly states and tells you the Sephiroth Copies are the survivors of Nibelheim Hojo's experimental samples. They don't become giant Jenova creatures. We SEE that the Jenova creatures are made of Jenova's body. And at the time of the story where Jenova DEATH fights you, ALL the copies have been killed. So again, how would you assume that, unless you weren't paying attention?

And no, there is no battle of wills. Sephiroth was, and still is in control. Jenova calls him master, and he was its master in AC. In Lifestream Black, Sephiroth doesn't even have to think twice about using Jenova's power. Please stop attributing the mindless alien importance when it's nothing more than a conduit of Sephiroth's power now. Jenova is for all intents and purposes, Sephiroth's extraterrestrial bitch literally.

Why do you think when Sephiroth turned around to fight you, you suddenly were fighting Jenova DEATH and they express shock at the Sephiroth they were following not being who they thought?

Again, if u read the reports in Nibelheim and listen to Hojo, u know Sephiroth Clones are merely the survivors of Nibelheim who were used in the Jenova Reunion experiment. I repeat if you play FFVII and read everything in the game, the answer is there. People might be saying it isn't because you didn't understand but that's no fault of the game. You're expected to pay attention and READ everything there is if you're to get the whole picture. Cloud says after fighting Jenova BIRTH that the monster they fought was Jenova's arm, meaning that any portion of Jenova can suddenly metamorphorsize into a separate entity, brainless or not.

All the Sephiroth Clones are dead by the time you catch up to Sephiroth. They're all dead, you see Sephiroth take out the last remaining 2. Furthermore, why would a random Sephiroth Clone suddenly appear out of nowhere when Sephiroth/Jenova was just speaking to Cloud and continued answering his question? Does not compute.

And clearly Sephiroth succeeded because the Reunion itself happened with Sephiroth at the center. That's clearly obvious and to the point. How could it only be Sephiroth wanting to when he's already achieved his goal and is at the center of everything, thus symbolising he did what Hojo just stated? The Reunion happened.

There could be no plot twist with Jenova at the center because Hojo and the storyline has just demostrated that Sephiroth was the one pulling the strings of all events, including Jenova. Jenova even states that Sephiroth is its "master." Hojo, Jenova, and the storyline all clearly state that Sephiroth is the main threat. If you didn't get that, that sucks but the game does tell you. You can't deny that it does when its in black and white text.

[Rowan]

Cloud: He disappeared!?

Tifa: He might still be nearby……

???: Our purpose is to deliver the Black Materia to our master.

Cloud: Our...?

Cid: Hey, hey! What's goin' on?

???: Those who carry Jenova's cells...

Cloud: Master...!?

???: Of course... Sephiroth. Heh, heh, heh...

Is again, indicative of Jenova being under the control of Sephiroth. Unless you think Jenova would call Sephiroth "master" while controlling him. Clearly the "????" in the conversation is Jenova because at that point in the game you realise it wasn't Sephiroth you were chasing, but Jenova assuming the form of Sephiroth.

You could argue the "????" why it didnt it just friggin say 'JENOVA'... Oh maybe because they wanted you to realise it was Jenova when you actually started fighting it. The surprise was meant to be that you're facing off against a Sephiroth referring to himself in the third person only to discover...

It's Jenova itself.

I dont agree. Why would Jenova refer to herself (itself) in the third person?

"???? - Those with Jenova's cells"

Why not

"???? - Those with my cells"


I never gave Jenova much thought in the first place, you dont need to convince me. Im just saying that its also your arguments that are being built upon speculation. Unless it instead of -????- it said Jenova, then you are assuming. I dont care about the battle that followed the conversation, sephiroth comes lunging at you on the cargo ship and then you fight jenova. It doesn't matter. They leave stuff like this ambigious for a reason, not just in FF7 but in other FF games as well.

edit: in fact, thinking back I remember always thinking that it was Clouds alter conciousness talking to him. Like when he was sleeping that night in junon, and other times where there had been a black screen with text. Dont forget, Cloud suffers/suffered from schitzophrenia.


Superedit: Not sure if there is a word for "My" in Japanese, in which case you can chalk it upto poor translation. Which still enforces my belief that it wasn't explained clearly to those who were searching for the answer. I reiterate; I never gave it much thought.


Why must one control the other anyway? They both share the same goals, why cant they just operate as a team? Thats how I've always seen it.