Final Fantasy can't do villains?

[Heartless Angel]

Sephiroth manipulated cloud and Jenova (supposedly). If it were not for his manipulation of cloud, sephiroth would have never gained the black materia, at least in the sense that could was the one who handed it to him, on 2 seperate occasions. Sephiroth took the form of clouds party members at the northern crater in order to trick them into handing over the black materia, which could be considered as both planning and a display of cunning.

Not the same kind of manipulation. Kefka used deception, trickery, lies, he exploited the human mind without having any direct control of anyone. Sephiroth's manipulation was direct imposition of his own will. He didn't waste time or energy trying to alter someone's will, he just replaced it with his own and did as he pleased. He didn't persuade like Kefka, he simply made you see what he wanted you to see. Even his mind games are very much a brute force maneuver. Kefka plants a seed and waits for it to bear fruit. Sephiroth shatters minds and uses the broken bodies as puppets. He definitely had the mindset to be a manipulator like Kefka, but his power made it unnecessary, leading to a very different development as a villain. He was a planner, and he was highly intelligent, but the way he approached things reflected his power moreso than his intellect. Because unlike Kefka, who needed to lie cheat and steal to gain power, Sephiroth had power from the beginning. That made him a very different sort of villain.

Going on a bit of a tangent there, lol. A true mad man does not take time to appreciate anything of the kind. A sadist on the other hand...

A mere sadist is nowhere near that. Sephiroth didn't just take pleasure in pain. He fed on it, it was his drive. His will was to avenge, to make the world suffer as he believed his people had. He didn't just enjoy their suffering, he was obsessed with it. He planned out his moves to maximize the suffering he caused. He could have killed Aerith at any time, but he wanted to wait and make Cloud do it. When Cloud resisted and thought he won, he made a point of stealing away his victory right in front of him. He knew just what to say to make it worse. Sephiroth has a unique ability to make others suffer. Kefka wielded pain as a club, wide, brutal strokes, effective, yet unfocused, messy. Sephiroth used it as a scalpel. Precise, sharp, penetrating, very specifically targeted.

I tend to believe revenge to be one of the purest of motivations, in the sense that it could never describe someone as being inherintly evil, or good in the eyes of anyone. That is something I always found interesting and mysterious about Sephiroths character.

Another defining element of his character. Kefka was definitely a villain, Sephiroth bordered on an antihero.

[Odin1199]

Kefka was more large scale planner then. Revenge and sadism is way more narrow mindedness.

[T.G. Oskar]

Regarding Ultimecia being a bland villain: it's a question of tastes. Someone who prefers its villains to act directly instead of indirectly will find her to be bland, as you don't see her true self until the very end. However, much like Zemus, Ultimecia relies on her ability to essentially project her consciousness to act as she wants, which is why you believe at first that Edea is the main villain. Had they revealed Ultimecia's identity at first, it would have ruined things a bit: the moment where Edea acts as a guest party member and how everyone reacts towards the idea is a key point in the story. It's awkward to cooperate with someone who, until recently, was your enemy; its mind-boggling to cooperate with someone who, until a certain point was basically everyone's mother (save for Rinoa, and Squall of course) and who built the SeeD essentially to defeat Ultimecia in the future by setting certain things into motion. By all means, Edea should qualify as a benevolent chessmaster, facing someone with far more experience and power than herself, and having only a mild advantage of knowing that she'd be possessed at one point and other time shenanigans.

Regarding the Ultimecia-Rinoa hypothesis/"Squall's dream": it's less "Square Enix neither confirms nor denies the idea is wrong", but rather "Squeenix couldn't care, but found it so frickin' hilarious they're throwing a bone at it". Though, it could easily be that Squeenix didn't found it hilarious, but found it so well thought that they decided to give it a mention.

Regarding Jenova-as-puppetmaster: first time I hear about this, mostly. I believe the consensus over here is pretty clear on who's ruling who.

On brute force versus slyness: I find Exdeath to be the epitome of brute force, or at least the term should have been used instead of it. I barely see Sephy as someone who'd rely on brute force, particularly when "brute force" and "surgical precision" are used in the same post (the latter isn't mentioned by name, though, but "scalpel" brings that idea into mind). Brute force and finesse are commonly considered anti-theses of each other. To use brute force is to apply as much force as possible (regardless of area), while finesse implies using the right amount of force in the right spot.

I'd say that "hands-on approach" is a better term, and in here Exdeath excels a bit more. Unlike Zemus and Ultimecia, who do their actions by proxy (or by possession, in case of the latter), unlike Kefka who uses gambits (and even then, he personally takes the time to poison Doma and is present when burning Figaro; isn't that 'hands down approach' at its finest?), and unlike Sephiroth who puts a plan into motion but cares little for his pursuers, Exdeath personally goes and attempts to stop the heroes before his plans are stopped (and when he's defeated, he still manages to tag along and continue with his plan), which is the clearest example of "hands-on approach" I've seen.

I wouldn't say that Sephy went for a brute force or hands-on approach for a variety of reasons, but the biggest one is that he relies on others to do what he wants. He's more of an overseer than a worker: if he'd want the Black Materia, he could have...I dunno, send one of his clones for it. That's more of a "hands-on approach" than anything else. He simply seeks to claim the prize afterwards, which is the extent of his direct actions in this case. On the famous "Aeris dies" scenario, he could have simply done the job himself, but instead of going for the brute force approach ("do the damn thing already! Heck, do it before she gets to the Cave of the Ancients in the first place!!!!!!"), he goes for the mind game instead. Certainly, that's not indirect approach to solving the problem (it's quite direct), but it's not the most efficient. However, he relies on Cloud to attempt the job first, rather than doing it himself. Perhaps this isn't the best example of "in/direct approach", because the nature of the act inclines towards something different (the important bit is for him to toy around rather than solve the matter with efficiency), but it's still useful as the most direct approach to the matter would have eliminated the need for the mind game entirely.

If anything, I insist the worst villain, hands down, has to be Necron, and that's because he literally appears out of nowhere (or at least, as literal as "oblivion ~= nowhere") and has no clear anchor to the story other than "this is what happens when you break the Crystal; nice job breaking it Kuja!" The character development they gave him at those final hours (when he manages to artificially induce himself into Trance, brutally boosting his power) became somewhat irrelevant when he wasn't made the true final boss.

Oh, and this is a gift for Xanatos: note that the party never truly defeated Kuja. It's the opposite: Kuja killed the party, unambiguously, as they wouldn't be capable of facing the embodiment of Death in Gaia without actually dying. Take that as you will.

[Heartless Angel]

On brute force versus slyness: I find Exdeath to be the epitome of brute force, or at least the term should have been used instead of it. I barely see Sephy as someone who'd rely on brute force, particularly when "brute force" and "surgical precision" are used in the same post (the latter isn't mentioned by name, though, but "scalpel" brings that idea into mind). Brute force and finesse are commonly considered anti-theses of each other. To use brute force is to apply as much force as possible (regardless of area), while finesse implies using the right amount of force in the right spot.

The very thing that made Sephiroth so dangerous is that he possessed both brute strength, and finesse. Not only could he throw enough power into a goal to ensure its success, but he could apply it in such a way that would lead to maximum collateral damage. Even his weapon illustrates the deadly combination. The sword's absurd size gives it high weight, making it great for throwing large forces at enemies, but because he also has superb technique and a fine edged weapon, that force can be targeted very specifically to inflict maximal damage. Even a battering ram, through rather blunt and simplistic, works best when aimed at just the right part of the door. I suppose brute force isn't the best term, is it does come with the connotation of being devoid of finesse. What Sephiroth has is the unique combination of overwhelming force, and the intellect to maximize its effectiveness.

I'd say that "hands-on approach" is a better term, and in here Exdeath excels a bit more. Unlike Zemus and Ultimecia, who do their actions by proxy (or by possession, in case of the latter), unlike Kefka who uses gambits (and even then, he personally takes the time to poison Doma and is present when burning Figaro; isn't that 'hands down approach' at its finest?), and unlike Sephiroth who puts a plan into motion but cares little for his pursuers, Exdeath personally goes and attempts to stop the heroes before his plans are stopped (and when he's defeated, he still manages to tag along and continue with his plan), which is the clearest example of "hands-on approach" I've seen.

Exdeath certainly took a more active approach in fighting the heroes.But that doesn't necessarily mean he was more hands on than other villains who didn't. Exdeath just took a much greater interest in his opponents. Sephiroth seems to care more for his pursuers than one might think at first. He goes well out of his way to troll the heroes when he really didn't need to. Unlike most villains, killing people wasn't a part of his plan. He wasn't just 'avenging' the ancients, he was punishing those who 'betrayed' them. I'll go into more detail in the next segment.

I wouldn't say that Sephy went for a brute force or hands-on approach for a variety of reasons, but the biggest one is that he relies on others to do what he wants. He's more of an overseer than a worker: if he'd want the Black Materia, he could have...I dunno, send one of his clones for it. That's more of a "hands-on approach" than anything else. He simply seeks to claim the prize afterwards, which is the extent of his direct actions in this case. On the famous "Aeris dies" scenario, he could have simply done the job himself, but instead of going for the brute force approach ("do the damn thing already! Heck, do it before she gets to the Cave of the Ancients in the first place!!!!!!"), he goes for the mind game instead. Certainly, that's not indirect approach to solving the problem (it's quite direct), but it's not the most efficient. However, he relies on Cloud to attempt the job first, rather than doing it himself. Perhaps this isn't the best example of "in/direct approach", because the nature of the act inclines towards something different (the important bit is for him to toy around rather than solve the matter with efficiency), but it's still useful as the most direct approach to the matter would have eliminated the need for the mind game entirely.

It's not the he relies on others, the term rely implies that others were needed. He never needed Cloud to kill Aerith, he just wanted to make Cloud suffer more. He could have just killed her a long time ago, before the group showed up. He didn't. He waited until the time was right to strike to maximize the collateral damage. He never needed the heroes to recover the black materia, he could have just sent a clone. Instead he basically challenged them to a race for the black materia, knowing they would have no choice but to try to win to stop him. He made them sacrifice Cait Sith (probably assuming they'd have to give up a real person of course) to obtain it, all so he could come in at the last second and using his own force of will to make Cloud hand it over. He still just took what he wanted by force, he just wanted to make his opponents suffer for their attempt at opposing him. He maximized collateral damage. He never needed to manipulate anyone, it was all for the sake of maximizing the pain he caused. In the end he still used brute force to get his way, he just waited for the most opportune moment to ensure the blow would inflict maximum damage. Overwhelming force, and the intellect to apply it in the most devastating way. While Exdeath had to go after the heroes AND further his own plans with different actions, Sephiroth planned his moves in such a way that one action would advance him on both objectives. He's a lot like Jigsaw in that regard, he forces the situation, and knows the outcome before the game is played, but he inflicts addition torment by granting the illusion of hope, only to end up leaving the group with a choice of damnations and greater pain for their efforts.

[Xanatos]

Forgot about this thread...

Not at all. Kefka was a strategist, a manipulator, a sociopath who preferred to be distant from his targets when possible. He was opportunistic. Sephiroth in sharp contrast preferred to use brute force to get his way. He didn't need to manipulate, gain trust, or sneak around. If he wanted Jenova, he went through the front door of the most heavily guarded building on the planet and up the main stairs in the lobby. Unlike Kefka, he wasn't a sociopath, he was truly mad. He didn't just not value life, he actively hated it. He didn't stay distant and coldly enact plans from afar, he relished in the suffering of every victim, preferring to kill them at close range where he could watch the life fade from their bodies. But he never struck unannounced either, he made sure the enemy knew who was going to kill them. Sephiroth also wasn't an opportunist, he forced his way and cut down all opposition. furthermore, the two were fundamentally different in thier motives, in that Sephiroth believed he was a hero, while Kefka was well aware that he was playing the villain. Their only similarities are being psychopaths with god complexes, and really, that's pretty much true of any RPG villain.

Perhaps not by personality, not entirely that is, but Sephiroth is in a way indeed a Kefka rip-off, they share way too many elements one can ignore. Both were experimented on, achieved power via artificial way, at one point both had direct control over main character, both were generals, both killed their top in command which happened to be politically the most powerful figures in their respective worlds, both single handedly dealt massive damage to opposing army during the war, both are batshit crazy and suffer from a God complex, in final battle against Sephiroth there are tons of elements already seen in battle against Kefka, from certain moves to appearance...

[Odin1199]

In FF Dimensions, the emperor also uses the characters to make them hand over the crystals, but it's not like he makes them do it with 100% success. Still, the planning and insidiousness is all there. Nowadays, those kinds of moves are pretty mainstream with many villains, or maybe it's just me that got used to that kind of stuff.

[Heartless Angel]

Perhaps not by personality, not entirely that is, but Sephiroth is in a way indeed a Kefka rip-off, they share way too many elements one can ignore. Both were experimented on, achieved power via artificial way

In which case one must also admit that Kefka is a ripoff of 2/3 of the villains ever to exist in comics. Or Tv shows, or movies... The experiment gone wrong is one of the fundamental villain archetypes, it's neither originally nor uniquely Kefka's.

at one point both had direct control over main character

Also fairly common in villains. And of course even within the series that would make Kefka a Zemus ripoff.

both were generals

Sephiroth was not a general, he was a soldier. He wasn't really a commander, even when he was in charge. He was a warrior, not a leader. That said, high ranking military official is at least in the top 5 occupations for a super villain to come from. Garland was a military man as well, regarded as one of the best of the knights of Cornelia.

both killed their top in command which happened to be politically the most powerful figures in their respective worlds,

As did Ultimecia and Kuja. Seymour sort of... and several villains outside of Final fantasy. High profile political assignations are like one of the prerequisites for being a supervillain.

both single handedly dealt massive damage to opposing army during the war

Again, a very common story device used to instill fear and respect for the character. The admiration for massive damage dealt in spite of being hugely outnumbered is a historical theme. The battles which history remembers are the ones which didn't go as one would expect, the battle of the 300 Spartans being a prime example.

both are batshit crazy and suffer from a God complex,

As does most any good villain.

in final battle against Sephiroth there are tons of elements already seen in battle against Kefka, from certain moves to appearance...

Which of course were also not originally or uniquely Kefka's. Kefka's final form was remniscent of Mateus, replacing one set of seraphic wings with demon wings, sharing the showing off of chests, changing into regally colored robes, and and otherwise trying to incorporate an angellic appearance into what amounts to the epitome of evil. Of course we see the demon wings Kefka replaced a set of mateus' seraphic wings with on the first villain of the series, Chaos. He also incorporates the purle and gold color scheme used in the Emperor fights, the Cloud of Darkness fight, Zemus was purple skinned with a little gold, and was rocking the purple towel for clothes before Kefka came along. And then of course there's the obvious similarity between him and the Joker. Kefka really isn't terribly original either. Squeenix reuses a lot of themes.

[Xanatos]

Ultimecia and Kuja did in fact kill politically the most poweful figure in their respective world, however they did not serve under that figure their entire life.

In other words Kefka used bits and pieces of several villains while Safer Sephiroth is "am I fighting Kefka or what", aside appearance, both know Heartless Angel, a move exclusive to these two games (if you don't count Dissidia that is), Shadow Flare, another move rarely used throughout the franchise, the way Sephiroth does his signature move is another allusion to Kefka, according to FF Wiki great deal of final battle with Sephiroth is inspired by Kefka, and if you look at it you don't need their word for it.

Most of these traits are indeed common, how many villains share each and every one though.

[Heartless Angel]

Ah, my bad, didn't even notice the part about serving. But still, political assassinations are a pretty common deal in villains. As is ditching a military, and Garland was the first to do that. Really if you think about it, Sephiroth never 'served; Shinra. Even as a soldier, he was pretty indifferent to orders, in Crisis core you see him breaking orders all the time. Technically Sephiroth served Shinra, sure. But on a personal level, he had absolutely zero interest or respect for its president or his orders. One could also consider the fact that he did NOT kill Rufus even though he was easily capable. It's quite possible he killed the president just to get him in power, to throw one more obstacle in the party's way. That is of course purely an assumption on my part, so think of it what you will.

"Kefka Palazzo uses this in the final battle, but the Kaiser Dragon, Fiend Dragon, Holy Dragon, Crystal Dragon, andRed Glutturn also sport this attack." From the FF wiki. Kefka isn't even the first to use Heartless angel in his own game. In Vi, HA was just an obnoxious big boss move, in the VII universe, it's a signature move unique to Sephiroth. And it's stayed with Sephiroth in spinoffs.

Shadow Flare began as a geomancy spell in III. In V it was an item mix combo, as well as Dark Flare being a necromancer spell. I don't even recall Kefka using it. In VII, it was not a special or unique move, anyone could use it. Dragon zombies use it, Ruby and Ultima use it, I use it, it's just another spell.

Supernova doesn't have much in common with Forsaken. Kefka makes the sky turn red, then bluish purple, then red, and then he attacks with TV static. Sephiroth does math and blows up the sun which somehow managed to deal percentage based damage, and produces a replacement sun. I fail to see an allusion.

Certainly there are common elements between the two, but there's certainly no basis for calling Sephiroth a ripoff, because they'd been using each and every one of those elements for a long time before Kefka came along.

[Odin1199]

Wasn't it called Flare Star in FF6?

[loaf]

Pearl doesn't look like Holy. But it is!

[T.G. Oskar]

Some things I'd like to point out:

First, Heartless Angel first appears in Final Fantasy VI (it's the first chronological appearance of a "HP to One" attack), which has then appeared in subsequent games. Also, Hell's Judgment is exclusive to Ultimecia and Blue Shockwave is exclusive to Necron (and in the case of Ulty, it's on her last form, but note that this is a two-phase battle). Heartless Angel in FFVI might not be exclusive to Kefka, but it's the first instance of the aforementioned abilities. Considering it's a pretty common ability, I'd say it makes the World of Ruin a pretty dangerous place to live on.

Second: Supernova might be a summon-esque ability, but mechanically it's still a Gravity-based ability, and thus always deals a certain percentage of damage; it can't kill the opponents (trolling much? It begs the question of "why not kill them already?"). It's Sephy's signature move, hands down, above and beyond Heartless Angel. Heck, Pale Horse is just as much exclusive to him, and it's his personal variant of Grand Cross, Neo-Exdeath's signature move (until Necron just chose to use it as well!) Forsaken, in Final Fantasy VI, is supposed to be the most powerful spell in terms of spell damage, but lacks the ability to punch through magical defense as Ultima does, making the latter the most powerful spell in terms of actual damage (what's best, a spell that deals 6 damage but can be reduced by magical defense to 50% of its worth, or one that deals 4 damage but can't be blocked by anything?). The former is...graphically intensive, but impractical (Heartless Angel is several times more effective, worse if followed with Deen before the party can cast Life 3/Reraise or cure themselves, or have Final Attack/Phoenix), while the latter is also somewhat graphically intensive (hey, it's 16-bit graphics; the most powerful Summon in FFVI wasn't as pretty as the latter versions) but potentially lethal.

Third, there is no doubt that Kefka draws from many places. The "experiment gone wrong" is a tried-and-true trope; in both cases, were they done right, regardless of who represents it better? Both Sephy and Kefka manifest this in different ways: Kefka descends into madness as a result of the experiment, though Ultimania suggests that it might have just detonated and magnified his inner turmoil. Sephy, on the other hand, descends into madness as a result of the revelation; he knew he was a super-soldier, he knew inherently that he was above all others; knowing his heritage was what finally made him crack. This is, basically, the same trope used in two different ways. You can say that Ulty took from Zemus its schtick, but they do this in different ways (one uses mind control, the other actually goes for possession). Note that both Sephiroth and Ultimecia exert their wills upon a specific subset of people (Sephy with its clones, Ulty with any sorceress); does that mean Ulty ripped that skill off Sephy, considering that Ulty isn't even using the same skill set? Consequently, Sephy mimics with Cloud what Kefka does to Terra; in no moment Zemus takes direct control over Cecil (only on Golbez and Kain), and in no moment Ultimecia takes direct control over Squall (only over Rinoa). So that remark of "that would make Kefka a Zemus ripoff" has to be taken with the same measure as "The experiment gone wrong is one of the fundamental villain archetypes, it's neither originally nor uniquely Kefka's"; it might not be original, but has to be seen in the context of how it defines the character.

Fourth: a battering ram is used without regard for aiming at structural weaknesses. To do so is to optimize the use of that force; that requires no finesse at all. Perhaps the correct term is that Sephiroth's plans are designed to optimize his use of his force, but that has its own share of problems. Sephiroth barely uses his powers throughout the first game: he leaves out remnants of Jenova, enables psychic assaults against Cloud, enacts a barrier to protect the Crater from the Weapons and Sister Ray (until the latter is supercharged), and then his final battle. A "battering ram" approach would involve a much higher body count than that present in the first game; the burning of Niflheim doesn't imply a combination of intellect, brute force and intent of collateral damage, but rather a reaction. Suggesting that Sephy deliberately planned for the WEAPONS to destroy Juno and Midgar as an example of using brute force in a way that causes collateral damage makes less sense whatsoever, because he used no power (quite the contrary; he HID from the WEAPONS while awaiting for Meteor). Summoning Meteor is perhaps the one example I might agree with, and it still doesn't suggest that unusual combination. In fact, that combination is hardly unique: it's basically Darth Vader's philosophy. Darth Vader is supposed to be the most powerful user of the Force (or at least in equal degree to Palpatine), and uses the Force like a fine scalpel, not like a blunt hammer. Considering just how many references the Final Fantasy series makes to Star Wars, this would be hardly original.

[Heartless Angel]

Second: Supernova might be a summon-esque ability, but mechanically it's still a Gravity-based ability, and thus always deals a certain percentage of damage; it can't kill the opponents (trolling much? It begs the question of "why not kill them already?"). It's Sephy's signature move, hands down, above and beyond Heartless Angel. Heck, Pale Horse is just as much exclusive to him, and it's his personal variant of Grand Cross, Neo-Exdeath's signature move (until Necron just chose to use it as well!) Forsaken, in Final Fantasy VI, is supposed to be the most powerful spell in terms of spell damage, but lacks the ability to punch through magical defense as Ultima does, making the latter the most powerful spell in terms of actual damage (what's best, a spell that deals 6 damage but can be reduced by magical defense to 50% of its worth, or one that deals 4 damage but can't be blocked by anything?). The former is...graphically intensive, but impractical (Heartless Angel is several times more effective, worse if followed with Deen before the party can cast Life 3/Reraise or cure themselves, or have Final Attack/Phoenix), while the latter is also somewhat graphically intensive (hey, it's 16-bit graphics; the most powerful Summon in FFVI wasn't as pretty as the latter versions) but potentially lethal.

It seems that a lot of games have boss ultimate attacks which are less dangerous than their normal moves <.<. One I recall in particular is Ethereal Queen in Valkyrie Profile 2. Her ultimate only hits one person, and usually wont even kill them, meanwhile a standard fire spell can obliterate the entire party if they're clustered up enough. There of course several other examples of this.

Third, there is no doubt that Kefka draws from many places. The "experiment gone wrong" is a tried-and-true trope; in both cases, were they done right, regardless of who represents it better? Both Sephy and Kefka manifest this in different ways: Kefka descends into madness as a result of the experiment, though Ultimania suggests that it might have just detonated and magnified his inner turmoil. Sephy, on the other hand, descends into madness as a result of the revelation; he knew he was a super-soldier, he knew inherently that he was above all others; knowing his heritage was what finally made him crack. This is, basically, the same trope used in two different ways. You can say that Ulty took from Zemus its schtick, but they do this in different ways (one uses mind control, the other actually goes for possession). Note that both Sephiroth and Ultimecia exert their wills upon a specific subset of people (Sephy with its clones, Ulty with any sorceress); does that mean Ulty ripped that skill off Sephy, considering that Ulty isn't even using the same skill set? Consequently, Sephy mimics with Cloud what Kefka does to Terra; in no moment Zemus takes direct control over Cecil (only on Golbez and Kain), and in no moment Ultimecia takes direct control over Squall (only over Rinoa). So that remark of "that would make Kefka a Zemus ripoff" has to be taken with the same measure as "The experiment gone wrong is one of the fundamental villain archetypes, it's neither originally nor uniquely Kefka's"; it might not be original, but has to be seen in the context of how it defines the character.

I was being facetious with calling Kefka a Zemus ripoff by intentionally using the same argument that a superficial similarity used in entirely different ways makes someone a ripoff. Of course KEfka did it in his own way, as did Sephy, and Ulti, and everyone else who's ever really done the whole mind control thing as a story element.

Fourth: a battering ram is used without regard for aiming at structural weaknesses. To do so is to optimize the use of that force; that requires no finesse at all. Perhaps the correct term is that Sephiroth's plans are designed to optimize his use of his force, but that has its own share of problems. Sephiroth barely uses his powers throughout the first game: he leaves out remnants of Jenova, enables psychic assaults against Cloud, enacts a barrier to protect the Crater from the Weapons and Sister Ray (until the latter is supercharged), and then his final battle. A "battering ram" approach would involve a much higher body count than that present in the first game; the burning of Niflheim doesn't imply a combination of intellect, brute force and intent of collateral damage, but rather a reaction. Suggesting that Sephy deliberately planned for the WEAPONS to destroy Juno and Midgar as an example of using brute force in a way that causes collateral damage makes less sense whatsoever, because he used no power (quite the contrary; he HID from the WEAPONS while awaiting for Meteor). Summoning Meteor is perhaps the one example I might agree with, and it still doesn't suggest that unusual combination. In fact, that combination is hardly unique: it's basically Darth Vader's philosophy. Darth Vader is supposed to be the most powerful user of the Force (or at least in equal degree to Palpatine), and uses the Force like a fine scalpel, not like a blunt hammer. Considering just how many references the Final Fantasy series makes to Star Wars, this would be hardly original.

Sephiroth actually has a lot in common with Vader. I'd be more willing to entertain the assertion that he was a Darth Vader ripoff than a Kefka ripoff. As for finesse, I suppose it depends on how you define the word. Often it's used to mean subtlety, but not always. Sometimes it just means artful handling of a situation, a trick, or stratagem. And Sephiroth certainly pulls some rather artistic moves in his handling of the heroes. Waiting for Cloud to kill Aeris to make the blow more painful, letting the heroes beat him to the black materia to make them choose to sacrifice one of their own to obtain it. Of course we never really see Sephiroth use the full extent of his power, but he still tends to overwhelm the opposition rather than simply deceiving them into giving him what he wants. Of course he may deciieve them in addition to set them up for extra damage, but it ends up being force that advances his primary goals.

[Lacquer Head]

I'm jumping in, late game. SPOILERS ABOUND, OBVIOUSLY

For the NES games...come on, what do you expect? Some of the back story does make the Emperor pretty bad-ass, in the manga, that is. Zemus, I agree, that always irked me. I liked Exdeath, he might have the personality of a tree (ziiiiiiiiiiing) but he had his moments. Kefka is just ****ing awesome, Sephiroth was just shallow and shit. Ultimecia was interesting, perhaps if we DID get more first person contact with her, she could have had more character, but her presence WAS known the whole time. I really enjoy Kuja and Garland, though we can relate with them both, at least a little bit. Garland just wanted to preserve his home planet, though it did cause a lot of mass genocides and Kuja was a typical anti-hero, his existence was tragic, and his life ends with a heroic act, kinda making him less of a villain, but his character is one of my favorites. Yu Yevon was another one of the last minute things, and he had no REAL character, but was more of a symbol of Yevon as a whole, which gives it a lot of strength, killing him symbolizing ending the evil church and cycle of death that was Sin.

I never played much of 12 and have never touched 13 because I don't like handling fecal matter.

[SuperSabin]

I'm jumping in, late game. SPOILERS ABOUND, OBVIOUSLY

For the NES games...come on, what do you expect? Some of the back story does make the Emperor pretty bad-ass, in the manga, that is. Zemus, I agree, that always irked me. I liked Exdeath, he might have the personality of a tree (ziiiiiiiiiiing) but he had his moments. Kefka is just ****ing awesome, Sephiroth was just shallow and shit. Ultimecia was interesting, perhaps if we DID get more first person contact with her, she could have had more character, but her presence WAS known the whole time. I really enjoy Kuja and Garland, though we can relate with them both, at least a little bit. Garland just wanted to preserve his home planet, though it did cause a lot of mass genocides and Kuja was a typical anti-hero, his existence was tragic, and his life ends with a heroic act, kinda making him less of a villain, but his character is one of my favorites. Yu Yevon was another one of the last minute things, and he had no REAL character, but was more of a symbol of Yevon as a whole, which gives it a lot of strength, killing him symbolizing ending the evil church and cycle of death that was Sin.

I never played much of 12 and have never touched 13 because I don't like handling fecal matter.

Be careful with the sephiroth thing, this thread turned into a huge FFVII fan war over sephiroth's condition.

[Crescent]

Be careful with the sephiroth thing, this thread turned into a huge FFVII fan war over sephiroth's condition.

Oh did it now? XD

What can you do People get it wrong over n over n over n OVER again since FFVII is talked bout everywhere. Then opinion can get confused with fact. I don't know how it can be missed unless you're just so into the gameplay you're just quickly rushing through the text boxes and shit. Which I know some people do.

Either way ..lol

carry on..

[Lacquer Head]

Be careful with the sephiroth thing, this thread turned into a huge FFVII fan war over sephiroth's condition.

FF VII was good for one thing: entertaining yaoi fangirls

[Heartless Angel]

And inspiring mindless trolling. Don't forget that.

[Odin1199]

Is there any villain who can rival Kefka? Shoot. Don't mention FF7's if you can help it. His methods were more surgical and psychological, fixated on FF7's protagonists. Not large scale enough. I'm more interested in global scale villains. Reason I ask is because I haven't played FF's 9 or up. I'm not flame baiting or anything.

[LocoColt04]

Do we want to lump Bravely Default in with the Final Fantasy series? If so, THAT - but I utterly refuse to even mention who the villain is because it's a giant plot twist and so many people haven't played that yet.

[Odin1199]

Damn, I forgot about that game. It was on my buy list some time ago. Gotta get it!

[Xanatos]

Is there any villain who can rival Kefka? Shoot. Don't mention FF7's if you can help it. His methods were more surgical and psychological, fixated on FF7's protagonists. Not large scale enough. I'm more interested in global scale villains. Reason I ask is because I haven't played FF's 9 or up. I'm not flame baiting or anything.

In which manner exactly? Power? Accomplishments? Depth?

I feel Kuja surpasses Kefka by far in each and every category. We are speaking of a man who blew half a planet apart using his own strength. Threw entire continent into chaos of war by merely manipulating others. And as you know Kefka sadly lacks genuine depth.

Vayne on the other hand is different type of villain with somewhat different methods and goals, he may not be powerful or flashy as Kefka or Kuja , but still briliant nevertheless, and as far as determination and sacrifice go he beats them both.

[Odin1199]

So which one of the 3 is most cunning? Are the other ones more cunning than Kefka? Also, what did Kuja do to become that strong? That matters too, because if you're strong to start with, it's not much of an achievement, but if you're just a human who finds a way to become something close to a god from harnessing esper's powers, you've done your homework. Try not to spoil much because I want to play those FF's. Was Kuja a human to start with is all I want to know.

[Xanatos]

I would say Kuja's quite cunning, he definitely stands out the most in my opinion. Kuja managed to wreak havoc worldwide by manipulating others using nothing more but well chosen words. He's quite powerful, not the most powerful being during the game mind you. As for how he became even more powerful and what for, you'll have to find out for yourself, there are certain things I would have to spoil in order to explain. I will say however he proved to be more than resourceful by exploiting two means of power, one not as successfully though. What I love about Kuja and this game in general, unlike other villains there is a plausible explanation as to how Kuja was defeated by your party despite showing tremendous power.

Vayne is a diffirent type of villain, antihero if you will. His goals are noticeably more noble. Vayne is a mere human, he wields political power. He is indeed cunning, perhaps not as cunning as some other villain, though way more determined as he's prepared to lose everything dear to him to achieve his goal.

[HeroZero]

For whatever reason, I think of Seymour as being the bad guy in FFX. He just FEELS like the real enemy even if he ends up being 'relatively' small fry. After reading some other peoples opinions on it I never really considered Yu Yevon as the ultimate enemy(granted I haven't played X-2 through) but I can easily lump Seymour into just a tool of Yu Yevon.

[Odin1199]

Well if Kujo wasn't the most powerful being in the world, then Kefka was. And Kefka was cunning, resourceful as well and just a mere human who became almost a god. Let's say both K's kick ass.

[Xanatos]

Wut?

Kuja was not the most powerful being in the world/universe he resides, what does Kefka have to do with that? Besides, according to Ultimania Kuja literaly blew half a planet apart while Kefka with the help of Warring Triad and all only managed to tear surface.

[Rowan]

Are we all forgetting the emotional trauma Sephiroth inflicted on not only cloud and the gang, but the players themselves? Tell me one villain who has done something that horrific.

[Xanatos]

Are we all forgetting the emotional trauma Sephiroth inflicted on not only cloud and the gang, but the players themselves? Tell me one villain who has done something that horrific.

If you mean the scene with Aeris/Aerith I personally wasn't all that affected by it as I'm not really a fan of her to be honest, but I see why one might.

[ezio69]

How are we to judge them....?

In terms of Strength, Sephiroth wins.

Purpose? Sephiroth wins as he needed the world to fulfill a bigger purpose. Kefka simply just want it to burn.

Sephiroth wins for me everytime. That badass has got Everything I love in a villain.