Cloud Versus Squall

[Angel of Iniquity]

Okay, no flaming guys.
Perhaps, there should be a separate area where we can pit Characters against any type of characters ^-^

In real life. Both junction and materia work the same as they did on their respective worlds.

I am asking on FF7's threading to here plausible counters of Squall.

With materia and junction?
Without Materia and junction?
100%?

Well, with materia and junction, not using game breaking systems, I think Squall could win. Only cause he has more experience with his weapon, is smarter, and has more official training. (new thread Idea)

Without materia and junction? Well firstly, let's be serious. I don't give a damn what the game says, you should be able to use items without need to junction.
Hmm, hard one as it will be about skill. To me, Squall has more skill.
Cloud has more endurance and more strength persay due to his Mako, but overall, Lionheart wins all (jk kinda)

100%? Hmm, since we aren't going by game standards, I will say it may be a tie cause, I can't really say. The best I seen of Cloud and Squall is Omnislash and lionheart.
But Eden beats all FF7 summons in erms of destructive power if it was cannon. (She destroys earth, in a weird hyper beam thingy)

[markandrewkinzett]

Close competitionn I wouldn't want to call it!!! But I disagree with your Eden statement. Knights of the rounfd in Final Fantasy 7 when I use it (due to magic plus and KOTR both masterd) it causes 13 hits of 9999damage which equals a total of 129987 HP so I don't think Eden can cause much more than that perhaps about equal damage but I would not say more.

[Diamond Dust]

Whilst it's fun to muse over who'd win in a fight between two fictional characters, let's be honest - it's utterly pointless!

That said though - can't you pit these two together in Dissidia? That'll sort the men from the boys.

[Angel of Iniquity]

I said if it was cannon, Edens attack.
It is pointless, as is most on this forum, but it is for fun.
Dissidias characters are biased in terms of equality.

[loaf]

Actually Dissidia is probably the closest for every character in being equal.

[Angel of Iniquity]

Actually Dissidia is probably the closest for every character in being equal.

Yes. What I said, meant if you are good with bartz, bartz is the best character.

Can't compare them like that.

[loaf]

Nah actually Jecht and Golbez are the "best" characters, their speed is decent for how strong they are, as well as the speed of their attacks. And honestly, Zidane and Onion Knight are better choices over Bartz. Bartz is like the 50/50 character. They should have really made him more of a Job character, each BRV and HP attack was just a different type of attack from a different job.


If you are good with any character then they are the best? Maybe your best, but not THE best.

[FF9isthebest]

Quistis cuz she'd use degenerator.

[Robbo]

I'm pretty glad i've found this and i'm going to judge it by character personality so Squall wins just because you can tell his attitude from his Actions Cloud you're just like oh is he extremely emo or normal throughout most of the game, also he is all whiney and begging for forgiveness it's just not entertaining

[Zidane77]

I think Cloud would win the fight, although Squall is no pushover and would stand a chance.
I don't think Eden owns other summons, but visually probably. But then Sephiroth's magic destroying the planets is even more powerful. (I know it's not a summon)
In terms of effectiveness i think Knights of the Round is a little more powerful especially with W-Summon and Mime.

[Angel of Iniquity]

I think Cloud would win the fight, although Squall is no pushover and would stand a chance.
I don't think Eden owns other summons, but visually probably. But then Sephiroth's magic destroying the planets is even more powerful. (I know it's not a summon)
In terms of effectiveness i think Knights of the Round is a little more powerful especially with W-Summon and Mime.

I wasn't taking into account game mechanics, as in damage points.
If I were to, Hero would automatically ensure a victory. Edens physical attack is more destructive than KoTR. They attack 12 times I think, while Eden basically manipulates reality and releases a vacuum of pure energy...

Now,...

[Locke4God]

I'm going to go with who I liked better overall, and I think that's Cloud. Not because I played that game first, nor because I felt more in tune with the characters, because indeed squall was more realistic, but because Cloud suffered a major tragedy and kept legitimate dissabilites. Squall was just a whiner in the end. Cloud held a stronger edge to destroy both Shinra and Sepheroth. Squall had to be drug along kicking and screaming through most of the game, more doing just whatever he was obligated to do rather than seeking a conclusion.

[Heartless Angel]

Though I much prefer Squall as a protagonist, to be perfectly honest, he wouldn't stand a chance against Cloud. Squall's just a normal dude with some combat skills. Cloud's a genetically enhanced, mako infused super soldier. Cloud definitely wins in raw physical strength and endurance. You an say a gunblade requires alot of skill to use, sure. But really, what sounds more complicated to you, a sword which you hold a bit differently and have to pull a trigger on to optimize damage, or a sword which contains like, 8 different swords, which you have to learn to assemble, disassemble, and reassemble in the middle of combat, and can pretty much freely shift to dual wielding with other seperated weapons ready to switch to at a moments notice. I mean seriously, Tsurugi is like, the most complicated sword ever concieved, yet Cloud's mastered it. Cloud defies the laws of physics all the time with his attacks. In terms of sheer close combat skill, Squall doesn't even come close.

If summons were canon, they couldn't even use them, considering their blast radius alone would annihilate both combatants and most surrounding cities. Even if that weren't the case, their destructive power doesn't really matter. A teraflare from Bahamut ZERO's going to reduce a body to ashes just as efficiently as Eden, it just won't rape as many continents in the process.

[Angel of Iniquity]

Though I much prefer Squall as a protagonist, to be perfectly honest, he wouldn't stand a chance against Cloud. Squall's just a normal dude with some combat skills. Cloud's a genetically enhanced, mako infused super soldier. Cloud definitely wins in raw physical strength and endurance. You an say a gunblade requires alot of skill to use, sure. But really, what sounds more complicated to you, a sword which you hold a bit differently and have to pull a trigger on to optimize damage, or a sword which contains like, 8 different swords, which you have to learn to assemble, disassemble, and reassemble in the middle of combat, and can pretty much freely shift to dual wielding with other seperated weapons ready to switch to at a moments notice. I mean seriously, Tsurugi is like, the most complicated sword ever concieved, yet Cloud's mastered it. Cloud defies the laws of physics all the time with his attacks. In terms of sheer close combat skill, Squall doesn't even come close.

If summons were canon, they couldn't even use them, considering their blast radius alone would annihilate both combatants and most surrounding cities. Even if that weren't the case, their destructive power doesn't really matter. A teraflare from Bahamut ZERO's going to reduce a body to ashes just as efficiently as Eden, it just won't rape as many continents in the process.

Hehehehe.
Well you forgot one major thing. Junction.
That alone makes up for his supernatural disadvantage.
Now for his physics. He displayed a great amount of agility when he jump several meters into the air in the galbadia prison while Selphie and Quistis took the stairs.

Advent children I don't except here because they added a plethora of techs.
If FF8 had the same treatment, the same would have happened*points to dissidia*.

I would say Cloud has the advantage naturally in endurance. He fell from that plate thingy and survived while squall got pierced and got hurt severely.

[Heartless Angel]

Junction is the only reason Squall has any stats to speak of at all. They're the only thing that even allows him to compete with Cloud. The above psot WAS considering Squall with junctions. They're not anything unusual or extrordinary in the VIII universe, lots of people use em. They're no more unique than materia in VII. They don't infuse Squall wth any magical gravity defying techniques, absurd skill, or enhanced physical state. Canonically speaking, all they really do for you is allow use of magic and self enhancement from magic. Squall would need that just to not die 5 seconds into the fight.

Like it or not, AC is canon. Only thing Cloud did in AC that he couldn't in the game was flying periodically during the Seph battle. And he really wouldn't need to fly to kick the crap out of Squall.

[Angel of Iniquity]

Junction is the only reason Squall has any stats to speak of at all. They're the only thing that even allows him to compete with Cloud. The above psot WAS considering Squall with junctions. They're not anything unusual or extrordinary in the VIII universe, lots of people use em. They're no more unique than materia in VII. They don't infuse Squall wth any magical gravity defying techniques, absurd skill, or enhanced physical state. Canonically speaking, all they really do for you is allow use of magic and self enhancement from magic. Squall would need that just to not die 5 seconds into the fight.

Like it or not, AC is canon. Only thing Cloud did in AC that he couldn't in the game was flying periodically during the Seph battle. And he really wouldn't need to fly to kick the crap out of Squall.

"The Junction System is a device that allows the user to replicate the powers of a Sorceress via the storage and control of magical powers and Guardian Forces. The system itself is capable of storing 32 different forms of Para-Magic with a stock of 100 units of each form. The system acts as a type of filter, filtering out magic (known as Drawing) from a being or entity and storing it ready to be used or junctioned by the user. This allows the user to possess near superhuman abilities such as increased speed and strength as well as being able to use magic as a weapon. Various Junction Systems are seen in wide use in the military forces, particularly in SeeD."

Yep, they didn't show it in game for reasons unknown, perhaps they wanted him not to be portrayed as hyper powered?
I know it is cannon, but as I said, this discussion is not with the movie as they over powered in in that. You can't go against that, he is over powered in AC.

Now, let me try to use criticle thinking.

What does junctioning do? Increase stats correct? Now, when I were to increase evasion to 80%, that means most physical attacks would miss. Meaning he should be able to see 80% of attacks before they hit.

Now, his defense. If I were to increase his defens to 190, almost all attacks do nothing, about 400 at the max, meaning he has near invulnerability.
Same with speed. Mix that with auto-haste, and you have somebody who can attack beyond our comprehension.

Junction does give a hyper powered increase, they just mixed it well.

[Heartless Angel]

The powers of a sorceress are... magic and self enhancement via magic, so yeah, pretty much what I said lol.

All the canon benefits of the junction system are pretty much the same thing as Materia. Materia increases stats and enables the use of magic and abilities in pretty much the same way. Their tools and enhancements are equal as far as we know. What is not equal are the wielders. Independant of Materia, Cloud is still a magic infused super soldier with ridiculous strength, endurance, speed, and combat experience. Independant of Junctions, Squall is a guy with a sword and combat experience.

Game mechanics aren't really an applicable argument, unless you just wanted to know who'd win based on that alone, in which case either Lightning or Tidus would kick the crap out of either of them.

[Angel of Iniquity]

The powers of a sorceress are... magic and self enhancement via magic, so yeah, pretty much what I said lol.

All the canon benefits of the junction system are pretty much the same thing as Materia. Materia increases stats and enables the use of magic and abilities in pretty much the same way. Their tools and enhancements are equal as far as we know. What is not equal are the wielders. Independant of Materia, Cloud is still a magic infused super soldier with ridiculous strength, endurance, speed, and combat experience. Independant of Junctions, Squall is a guy with a sword and combat experience.

Game mechanics aren't really an applicable argument, unless you just wanted to know who'd win based on that alone, in which case either Lightning or Tidus would kick the crap out of either of them.

One could argue that his magic alone are significant enough to ensure a victory.

Anyways, from what the Ultimania said, it seems that Junction can do allot more than what is shown in games, which literally leaves us at a current stand still. I mean hell, I doubt that he can't use an Item unless he has Ifrit or shiva lol.

Oh and, FF8 magic wins most others.

[Heartless Angel]

They both have access to pretty much the same spells. Outside of game mechanics, there's no real basis to argue that ones magic is greater than the other.

Arguing about game mechanics and the tools made available to the fighters may lead to a dead end, but arguing between the characters themselves with only their own powers leads to a pretty clear victor.

[Tepsha]

My money is on Cloud. My money is alwyas on Cloud. =P