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  1. #36
    The Mad God Heartless Angel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odin1199 View Post
    So that makes subconscious of any individual inaccessible or invisible?
    No. Once again you draw an absurd conclusion from my statement which my statement never implied. This is a logical fallacy known as the straw man argument. It's rather irritating, as in in addition to failing to lend itself to your conclusion, it demonstrates that you're either willfully ignoring, or failing to understand the points of the opposition. It can be modified, to certain extents, it can be observed, but it can not be directly controlled, and certain elements of it can not be changed.

    No way to predict how anyone will behave or react? Or wait, subconscious always revolves around egoism, right?
    No way to predict a given act with certainty. Yes. That we can't predict the specific reaction doesn't mean we can't predict that it won't fall into the category which encompasses all possibilities, in this case, the category of actions with egoistic motivations.

    I think your argument is circular.
    I'm sure you do, because once again it enables you to dismiss me without offering a valid rebuttal. Unfortunately I've already formalized the argument, the conclusion is not a part of the premises, so the argument is not cirular. Your opinion on the matter is not relevant.

    Subconsciousness is just a part of consciousness and one thing is dependent on the other and vice versa and both help shape and change each another.
    No. No it isn't. No matter how many times you restate a claim which is outright false, it is still outright false. The subconscious is separate from the conscious by definition. They do help each other, and to limited extents can influence each other. What they can not do is intentionally control the other, which is the claim your entire counterargument is based upon. The claim your counterargument is based on is absolutely, unequivocally, undeniably false.

    The way you're talking seems like we all have thoughts that control us in unknown, unpredictable ways and that's just too far fetched.
    Half of them are. We have both conscious and unconscious thoughts. If you haven't accepted this, then your knowledge of psychology is far too limited for you to form an educated opinion in a psychological debate. I'm more than willing to continue my attempts to educate you, but you do not appear willing to learn anything that doesn't lend itself to the preservation of your arbitrarily decided beliefs.

    If none of us were, we'd be stuck in the stone age.
    You base that on what exactly? A program designed to adapt and grow when functioning correctly will adapt and grow. We as a species are adapting and growing. Where do you find issue with this? Yet again your argument is based upon the assertion that the truth of my conclusion would somehow lead to an entirely unrelated consequence. You have failed once again to provide even a shred of evidence as to WHY the truth of my conclusion would lead to your ridiculous assertions. I can only infer that you haven;t presented any evidence to support your assertions because there isn't any, because the application of even the faintest glimmer of logic reveals that your assertions are pure nonsense.

    Here's the definition of subconsciousness:

    The subconscious mind is a composite of everything one sees, hears and any information the mind collects that it cannot otherwise consciously process to make meaningful sense. The conscious mind cannot always absorb disconnected information, as it would be an information overload, so the subconscious mind stores this information where it can be retrieved by the conscious mind when it needs to defend itself for survival (and for other reasons, such as solving puzzles).
    Let me go ahead and fix the bolding to highlight the parts that matter.

    Here's the definition of subconsciousness:

    The subconscious mind is a composite of everything one sees, hears and any information the mind collects that it cannot otherwise consciously process to make meaningful sense.
    Things that the conscious mind can not do. What about that statement thinks that it is a part of the conscious mind? Simple, formal logic to the rescue.

    Your argument amounts to...

    The subconscious does things that the conscious mind can not.
    Subconscious minds are a part of the conscious mind.
    Therefore, conscious minds can do what conscious minds can not do.

    Are you seriously stupid enough to think that's a sound conclusion? The conclusion is a logical contradiction. You are absolutely wrong in saying the subconscious is a part of the conscious. It is a separate part of the mind that aids the conscious mind in the tasks it can not perform. Let's continue analyzing your own definition.

    The conscious mind cannot always absorb disconnected information, as it would be an information overload, so the subconscious mind stores this information where it can be retrieved by the conscious mind
    Okay, yet again your own definition is making a distinction between two separate but related entities, the conscious and subconscious. Your own sources disagree with you. If the subconscious mind were a part of the conscious mind, it wouldn't need to be storing it where the conscious mind could access it, because by containing that information itself and being a part of the conscious, the conscious mind would have been accessing it the entire time.


    when it needs to defend itself for survival (and for other reasons, such as solving puzzles).
    Well, that's interesting. Because survival needs, physiological needs, and security needs are all on that lovely diagram of psychological needs I've posted twice. So, your source not only outright disagrees with you, but references the things you're claiming are not a part of the subconscious mind and don't influence the conscious mind when it makes decisions. Interestingly enough by outright stating that it feeds that information into the conscious mind to aid it in decision making. Are you feeling stupid yet? Your own source disputes you and supports me.

    That means that our actions and perceptions change and influence our subconsciousness and use it as reserves for memory and thought processes.
    In a cause and effect sort of way, yes. The subconscious mind adapts to its perceptions and experiences. Not in a, "I feel like changing my subconscious to this" sort of way, which is what you've suggested. The subconscious feeds on raw data. It directly draws its own conclusions from your experiences and perceptions, it doesn't wait for your conscious mind to consider it. It goes to your subconscious mind FIRST, ergo you are not in conscious control of it.
    Last edited by Heartless Angel; 07-29-2013 at 05:19 PM.
    For Our Lord Sheogorath, without Whom all Thought would be linear and all Feeling would be fleeting. Blessed are the Madmen, for they hold the keys to secret knowledge. Blessed are the Phobic, always wary of that which would do them harm. Blessed are the Obsessed, for their courses are clear. Blessed are the Addicts, may they quench the thirst that never ebbs. Blessed are the Murderous, for they have found beauty in the grotesque. Blessed are the Firelovers, for their hearts are always warm. Blessed are the Artists, for in their hands the impossible is made real. Blessed are the Musicians, for in their ears they hear the music of the soul. Blessed are the Sleepless, as they bask in wakeful dreaming. Blessed are the Paranoid, ever-watchful for our enemies. Blessed are the Visionaries, for their eyes see what might be. Blessed are the Painlovers, for in their suffering, we grow stronger. Blessed is the Madgod, who tricks us when we are foolish, punishes us when we are wrong, tortures us when we are unmindful, and loves us in our imperfection.





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