Who is the strongest FF main villain!!

[Heartless Angel]

Not really mate. You've showed why Ultimecia would beat restricted opponents, and dismissed all facts leading to her defeat as PIS. Ellone's powers were enough to let Squall and co. exist in Ultimecia's world, so her power was clearly not absolute, even against other sorceresses.

Again, no you haven't. All of your arguments thus far for the msot part can be condensed to, 'if she won she would've won' or 'if everyone else were worse than her she'd be the best'. Which, I suppose in a sense 'proves' your conclusion, because to accept your premises at all we've already agreed with it. Unfortunately, we don't all agree with it to begin with, so these arguments are insufficient. I have an IQ of 147, so if that was attempt to declare yourself smarter than those of us who disagree, or that all who are smart will agree, you've failed. Though there was a jk at the end, so I'll assume that was meant to be completely non serious. Just makin sure you know that as well lol.

As for categories perhaps...

Control (politcal power)
Cunning/Tactical ability
Mind**** skillz
Brute Strength (also including magic, not just for the warriors)
Natural power (meaning everybody before thy did something to gain power from an external source, as I think just about all of them did)
Max potential
Overall success

All I got so far.

[T.G. Oskar]

I respect them because they know what they are talking about, and being fans tends to create favoritism so I don't care about that.
Have I not posted reasons why I believe Ultimecia is the most powerful and intellectual? I have, and like the others do, I attempt to reduce or undermine others abilities to attempt to show more of Ultimecias power. While I can be "harsh,," I only react to how others react towards me...

One thing is to respect their opinion, and other is specifically using the term "slime" as an insult. You know, this is a public forum which anyone whom has a desire to learn about FF has access to (read-only, tho); hence, while it's a moderate insult, it's an insult nonetheless.

I might get a bit over my head sometimes, but I don't attempt to devolve into that. And even if I do, it's usually still on a very respectful way.

Again, no you haven't. All of your arguments thus far for the msot part can be condensed to, 'if she won she would've won' or 'if everyone else were worse than her she'd be the best'. Which, I suppose in a sense 'proves' your conclusion, because to accept your premises at all we've already agreed with it. Unfortunately, we don't all agree with it to begin with, so these arguments are insufficient. I have an IQ of 147, so if that was attempt to declare yourself smarter than those of us who disagree, or that all who are smart will agree, you've failed. Though there was a jk at the end, so I'll assume that was meant to be completely non serious. Just makin sure you know that as well lol.

You know, I'm supposed to have an IQ over 130 and I seriously have doubts that I have that kind of IQ. I do recall having an EQ of pretty much exactly 130 and I still have doubts whether that's useful or not. I mean, I'm not placing that as a badge of honor or anything. I know you're doing it as a response and that the entire thing was a joke, but if we're suddenly gonna reveal our intellectual quotients as if they were faithful measurements of power...

Also, IQ? What does that has to deal with opinion, when all it may link with is the ability to formulate a statement of support towards it? Then subjectivism, faulty logic...darn, this is turning into an ID thread! People are gonna refrain from answering because they'll expect an ID response! (Though I must be at fault there, but that's just me; I'm usually on "auto-ID-response" even on other forums...)

[Angel of Iniquity]

One thing is to respect their opinion, and other is specifically using the term "slime" as an insult. You know, this is a public forum which anyone whom has a desire to learn about FF has access to (read-only, tho); hence, while it's a moderate insult, it's an insult nonetheless.

I might get a bit over my head sometimes, but I don't attempt to devolve into that. And even if I do, it's usually still on a very respectful way.

Well, Xanatos said I lost all credibility and said I knew nothing about strength, which is an insult in comparative to mine. Plus, Impertinent is an higher insult than calling somebody a FF monster >.>

An, my active Iq is higher, my resting Iq is 119. THis has nothing to do with Iq, it was a joke. Tho my EIQ is lower than average, cause I can remove emotions >.>

Anyways, back to post o.o

[Heartless Angel]

You know, I'm supposed to have an IQ over 130 and I seriously have doubts that I have that kind of IQ. I do recall having an EQ of pretty much exactly 130 and I still have doubts whether that's useful or not. I mean, I'm not placing that as a badge of honor or anything. I know you're doing it as a response and that the entire thing was a joke, but if we're suddenly gonna reveal our intellectual quotients as if they were faithful measurements of power...

Also, IQ? What does that has to deal with opinion, when all it may link with is the ability to formulate a statement of support towards it? Then subjectivism, faulty logic...darn, this is turning into an ID thread! People are gonna refrain from answering because they'll expect an ID response! (Though I must be at fault there, but that's just me; I'm usually on "auto-ID-response" even on other forums...)

Wouldn't surpise me, you're a pretty smart dude. IQ isn't so much the ammount of knowledge you have, but your reasoning ability, how fast you can think, and the like. And from all I've seen of you, you seem to have a knack for reasoning, though I can't say I know how long you spend making your arguments. It has little to no corellation to the subject at hand, but if we're following Odin's (joking) lead and using that to declare victor, just throwing out there that I'm winning =P

I won't argue this yet, I'll wait till we do the Categories posted by you, and yea lol, the Jk was me playing around, tho I am curious, is your IQ really that high, because you would be greater than 99% of americans lol. I meant to serious disrespect by it lol.

Yup, I actually have been tested and come back with an IQ of 147. It's been a while, but think I determined that put me above about 99.8% of the population or something like that. That's 3 standard deviations above average, so it's above a serious chunk any way you slice it. But again that has little to do with anything lol, so don't think I'm saying that makes me correct by default, or even more credible; as that would make me out to be an arrogant douche (which I probably am, but not for this reason).

Anyways, onto my own categories.

Political power: I'd have to Say Seymour, closely followed by Vayne. Kefka may have had control, as did the sorceresses of 8, but people hated them. This led to opposition, assassination attempts, parties going on epic quests to screw them, etc. People liekd and followed Vayne as a leader. Even more powerful was Seymour. not only did people folow him as a political leader, but as a spiritual/religous leader. THAT's got a lot of power embeded in it. Yeah, you'll listen to your government with the threat of law enforcement, but you WANT to follow your religion. People would do what Seymour asked with smiles on their faces. And even when you freakin beat the guy, the world turns against you and tries to sentence you death and excommunicate you and all that shit.

Cunning: I'd have to say Seymour again actually. He brilliantly carried out an assasination on his own father for political power, acted the part of a nice guy to the public, even had the other Maester's convinced that he really did care for Spira's good. Even ahd them standing up for him. Had it not been for Jyscal's undead ass telling Yuna the truth, she would've gone and died, and made him Sin with a smile on her face. The people would've been none the wiser, and by the time the other Master's figured out he was trying to make Sin more destructive than ever, it would've been too late. Kuja Seph and Ulti I'd put about on par here, probably Kefka as well.

Mind**** Skillz: Zemus. Definitely Zemus. He brainwashed people into brainwashing people for him, now that's hardcore. Seymour Ulti and Seph as a tie for close second.

Brute Strength: Seph. He tore apart Midgar with swordsmanship alone, has acess to planet smashing Materia (it was stated in VII that Meteor had the power to completely destroy the planet, not just beat it up pretty bad like Kuja's Ultima) And with this power, he still never showed us 100%. That's ****in scary. The only PIS Squall and co recieved was the ability to exist. Ulti's power was ultimately not enoguh to beat them in an actual fight. While a serious threat, her 'strength' wasn't raw power, but abilities that (would've) ensured her victory.

Max Potential: Again, Seph. Here I'd have to say by a landslide. He ALREADY had planet smashing powers. It took Holy, the party, the god damn planet firing the entire freaking lifestream as a deus ex machina laser, and Sqaure doing anything in their power to make a happy ending (basically the entire god damn world going against him at the same time) to make him lose, while he wasn't even showing the full extent of the power he already had. Had he succeeded in absorbing the entire planet's energy, he would not have become a God. There is no word for what he would've become. But Gods would bow before it and beg for mercy. What Ultimecia has was not power in the same sense. But rather an (in theory anyways) unbreakable control. She DID reach her maximum potential for raw power, it just wasn't enough to reach her goals when somebody was around to oppose her. She had dangerous abilities, but not actual power in the sense that other villains did. You could make a case that if you put them both in one world allowing for both of them to do the same things, that Ultimecia could take control without ever giving Seph a chance to fight her (unless Ellone happened to like him too), but that's not the same thing as her being stronger. If you put the two in a world where they could both reach their maximum potential power then had em duke it out, Ultimecia wouldn't have a ghost of a chance.

Overall success: Again, I have to concede this one goes to Kuja. Everything he set out to do, he did, just as he planned to. Seph as a close second. Also because he DID get what he wanted in a way, just not exactly how he planned to do it. And he's the only villain who gets a second chance (as well as a third, and however many more afterwards he wants). Ulti third, about on Par with Kefka in the sense that they both got so ridiculously close that it almost made me want to cry when they lost it. Seymour probably on that level as well, since he DID make it into Sin with some influence on his actions, and learning to have more, until the party happened to, by sheer coincidence run into him there too. (He was probably thinking, seriously? Inside Sin? You assholes are HERE too?! WHO WRITES THIS SHIT?!?!?!)

[Angel of Iniquity]

Brute Strength: Seph. He tore apart Midgar with swordsmanship alone, has acess to planet smashing Materia (it was stated in VII that Meteor had the power to completely destroy the planet, not just beat it up pretty bad like Kuja's Ultima) And with this power, he still never showed us 100%. That's ****in scary. The only PIS Squall and co recieved was the ability to exist. Ulti's power was ultimately not enoguh to beat them in an actual fight. While a serious threat, her 'strength' wasn't raw power, but abilities that (would've) ensured her victory.

Max Potential: Again, Seph. Here I'd have to say by a landslide. He ALREADY had planet smashing powers. It took Holy, the party, the god damn planet firing the entire freaking lifestream as a deus ex machina laser, and Sqaure doing anything in their power to make a happy ending (basically the entire god damn world going against him at the same time) to make him lose, while he wasn't even showing the full extent of the power he already had. Had he succeeded in absorbing the entire planet's energy, he would not have become a God. There is no word for what he would've become. But Gods would bow before it and beg for mercy. What Ultimecia has was not power in the same sense. But rather an (in theory anyways) unbreakable control. She DID reach her maximum potential for raw power, it just wasn't enough to reach her goals when somebody was around to oppose her. She had dangerous abilities, but not actual power in the sense that other villains did. You could make a case that if you put them both in one world allowing for both of them to do the same things, that Ultimecia could take control without ever giving Seph a chance to fight her (unless Ellone happened to like him too), but that's not the same thing as her being stronger. If you put the two in a world where they could both reach their maximum potential power then had em duke it out, Ultimecia wouldn't have a ghost of a chance.

I'm not by any means trying to reduce his power in this next statement.

Brute strength
Ultimecia also already had existence threatening powers, she just needed Adel for the boost of power to use it as Sephy needed Black materia.
And in comparative, if she already had the power to absorb all existence(tho needed the boost), which by itself is leagues beyond what the others could have done, that means she should have also been able to stop time, being that that should be easier to pull of than being the singularity of time compression lol. Again, unproved things, but things to think upon lol. And if magical abilities is placed with brute strength than she definitely does have the upper hand. Other than being a sorceress of Time and Space, she also has the unique ability to control other sorceresses without aid of an device. She also didn't need a machine to junction. Oh and she also created a Guardian force, and devised a magic thought to be the strongest magic. Not to mention she still had her own magic, Time compression which was not a seperate ability from herself. As with Sephy, the black materia summoned meteo, not him.(correct me if I'm wrong about seph)

Max potential
I kinda got lost on your logic with sephy cause, I don't think he would have had enough power to be considered a creator god, as in god. Ultimecia already had half the power when she fought squall during the last battle if you believe the Great Hyne back story.
If she completed the time compression, which in reality she did, nothing existed other than random particles of energy and... squall...
Speaking of that, the real reason why it is PIS is... Adel destroyed a nation with only her thought, which is beyond what all other villians could do... Ultimecia not only has her power, she has ALL sorceresses. She literally has every power in existence since the great Hyne, meaning literally, she is the most powerful in terms of absolute power. So... Adel>Squall... Ulti>Adel... Uti>Squall... I mean really, a thought? And the same with SE and FF8, Squall should have never won, he has no power in comparison to her...

"hmm... boom" *news broadcast* The entire nation of Balamb was destroyed by an unknown source...

To make it more interesting, by following the weird story-line, Rinoa could kill everybody.

[Heartless Angel]

Again, the time manipulation isn't power in the sense that I'm talking about, so parts of that I won't respond to. She couldn't control other sorceresses without the device, the other sorceresses is where she was sending her conciousness too. She couldn't travel back in time in a physical sense, only send her mind back. The ultimate GF and magic I would put AT BEST on Par with Meteor (which was also called the Ultiamte destructive magic in VII). She had the magic on her own, but not the means to use it. She lacked the energy her ultimate magic required until she absorbed the power of others. Materia is only a tool, no different than a sword. A sword by itself kills nobody, it's the warrior's hand one must fear. Sephiroth had the means to cast the ultiamte magic with sufficient power to destroy the entire world (though that isn't what he did with it) with his own natural strength. He FAILED to absorb the power of others, and can still compete with Ultimecia, who only absorbed a few powerful individual's powers (not all sorceresses either, as she couldn't combat Ellone's ability to allow Squall and co to coexist with her).

Sephiroth wasn't going to absorb the power of a few indivudals. He was going to absorb the power of every living thing. And he was ALREADY capable of matching Ulti, and wasn't using his full power. Had he suceeded, he would've ended up so much stronger than Ulti, it wouldn't have even been funny. WITHOUT succeeeding in absorbing everything, he didn't blow up a continent with a thought (Adel also didn't destroy the continent, just pretty much everything on it, and was still overpowered by people) . He blew up the SUN with math. And he FAILED to absorb all living things' energy, AND wasn't showing his full natural power. His max potential is farther beyond anything I even know a word to describe. Minerva, a God in the VII universe was weak enough to be beaten by Zack, who could not beat Sephiroth (Sephiroth NOT showing his full power mind you). So yeah, Gods would bow before that and beg for mercy in the VII universe. Seph is stronger than they are BEFORE absorbing the lifestream and NOT showing his full power. At max potential, the Gods would be nothing to him.

[Angel of Iniquity]

Again, the time manipulation isn't power in the sense that I'm talking about, so parts of that I won't respond to. She couldn't control other sorceresses without the device, the other sorceresses is where she was sending her conciousness too. She couldn't travel back in time in a physical sense, only send her mind back. The ultimate GF and magic I would put AT BEST on Par with Meteor (which was also called the Ultiamte destructive magic in VII). She had the magic on her own, but not the means to use it. She lacked the energy her ultimate magic required until she absorbed the power of others. Materia is only a tool, no different than a sword. A sword by itself kills nobody, it's the warrior's hand one must fear. Sephiroth had the means to cast the ultiamte magic with sufficient power to destroy the entire world (though that isn't what he did with it) with his own natural strength. He FAILED to absorb the power of others, and can still compete with Ultimecia, who only absorbed a few powerful individual's powers (not all sorceresses either, as she couldn't combat Ellone's ability to allow Squall and co to coexist with her).

Sephiroth wasn't going to absorb the power of a few indivudals. He was going to absorb the power of every living thing. And he was ALREADY capable of matching Ulti, and wasn't using his full power. Had he suceeded, he would've ended up so much stronger than Ulti, it wouldn't have even been funny. WITHOUT succeeeding in absorbing everything, he didn't blow up a continent with a thought (Adel also didn't destroy the continent, just pretty much everything on it, and was still overpowered by people) . He blew up the SUN with math. And he FAILED to absorb all living things' energy, AND wasn't showing his full natural power. His max potential is farther beyond anything I even know a word to describe. Minerva, a God in the VII universe was weak enough to be beaten by Zack, who could not beat Sephiroth (Sephiroth NOT showing his full power mind you). So yeah, Gods would bow before that and beg for mercy in the VII universe. Seph is stronger than they are BEFORE absorbing the lifestream and NOT showing his full power. At max potential, the Gods would be nothing to him.

Hmm, it was already stated that she did have the ability to control sorceresses without the aid of the device, the device only allowed her consciousness to be sent into the past. Put it like this. Ellone sent Squalls an Co. consciousness back into the past, but squall could not control and rearrange events, which Ellone later stated, but Ultimecia could, which means the whole your parents never met thing.
And time magic is power, time manipulation takes magic, it's and ability as is magic. And she did have the power of every sorceress before her as stated in the Ultimania.

Ultimecia, since having the power of all sorceresses before her, even if it was just Adel, is ridicoulosy(spelling fail) power.
Just having the ability to destroy an entire nation with a thought, destroys what the others could have done, other than persay Ex-death, which is still stronger than Sephy.
Sephy failed to do anything other than be one with the lifestream, Ulty compressed most of time. In literal sense, she killed everything single thing. And since she was absorbing and erasing time, she absorbed more than any other thing in history.

If Cloud were to stop Sephy in Time compression, his existence would fade away, so I'm pretty sure Ulty can finish him straight away. The only thing that is confusing me is exactly how these villains failed.

Also, if going by the time loop theory, Ultimecia increases her power by 100x every cycle. So every playthrough of FF8, in theory, ulti is 100x stronger than the last which is hurting my brain.

And why would you say time compression isn't strength? It is her spell, not some tools spell.

[Angel of Iniquity]

Not really mate. You've showed why Ultimecia would beat restricted opponents, and dismissed all facts leading to her defeat as PIS. Ellone's powers were enough to let Squall and co. exist in Ultimecia's world, so her power was clearly not absolute, even against other sorceresses.

Again, no you haven't. All of your arguments thus far for the most part can be condensed to, 'if she won she would've won' or 'if everyone else were worse than her she'd be the best'. Which, I suppose in a sense 'proves' your conclusion, because to accept your premises at all we've already agreed with it. Unfortunately, we don't all agree with it to begin with, so these arguments are insufficient. I have an IQ of 147, so if that was attempt to declare yourself smarter than those of us who disagree, or that all who are smart will agree, you've failed. Though there was a jk at the end, so I'll assume that was meant to be completely non serious. Just makin sure you know that as well lol.

As for categories perhaps...

Control (politcal power)
Cunning/Tactical ability
Mind**** skillz
Brute Strength (also including magic, not just for the warriors)
Natural power (meaning everybody before thy did something to gain power from an external source, as I think just about all of them did)
Max potential
Overall success

All I got so far.

I won't argue this yet, I'll wait till we do the Categories posted by you, and yea lol, the Jk was me playing around, tho I am curious, is your IQ really that high, because you would be greater than 99% of americans lol. I meant to serious disrespect by it lol.

I don't know if I should list the antagonists again and talk about the categories and them, or who I think should be seperatly, I'll just go with the latter lol


Control (politcal power)- Well, I honestly would have to give this to Kefka, he had complete control over the world, in which most people had to worship him. Tho there were allot of people who hated thim, they could do nothing. He more or less had in comparision with other villians. I didn't complete disc 4 of FF9 so I can't really say. In overall, the amount of power he had in comparison to his control outweighs others like seymore and palemecia

Cunning/Tactical ability- This one is a little hard. Palemecia purposely died in order to control heaven and hell. From what i hear, Sephiroth was really tactical but again, I only got to materia keeper. Kuja was smart, but I'm not sure how to digress this category and the mind**** one lol

Mind**** skillz- You guys are probably sick of me talking about ultimecia but here it goes again. Ultimecia like Sephiroth, needed a medium to use the magic spell, Time Kompression. She needed Adel for that extra boost. Meaning that Adel could have had more power in all, though Ultimecia had a stronger class of magic. She used the junction machine to send her mind to Edea, several generations in the past. She then used Edea to 1. Weaken the armies for potential attack(destroy SeeD, Missile strike on trabia, Garden war) and 2. attempt to find Ellone so she can use her ability and send her consciousness to the past for Adel. She didn't need Ellone because Dr Odine told them about her plan. Ultimecia had dual tricked them, over andover again. Ultimecia had the ability to control sorceresses from natural means meaning she has Mind**** abilities right their lol...

Brute Strength (also including magic, not just for the warriors)- Again, Ultimecia didn't show no ability other than controlling sorceresses, which for notice, the junction machine couldn't do, it would only send her consciousness back, not give her the ability to control them. But after the spell, she has no equal, literally. Give me proof because she honestly can't be compared having powers of all previous sorceresses, inwhich means she has half of the power of the great hyne, meaning she is half creator god, or just have the power of him.

Natural power- I give that to Palemecia, cause I mean, he just has incredible magical power with no increments unlike Kuja and the invincible. Or it could be sin it'self with gravity, one of the 5 greater powers being Time, Space, Mater, Gravity and ... I forgot...>.>

Max potential- Hmm, Well, Ultimecia and sephiroth would have both been existence threatening gods. Since I seen Ultimecias abilities in comparitive to sephiroths, I gotta give Time and Space an edge to Sephiroth since I don't see his medium overall strength(Edea had ice etc). She wasnted to be another creator god to create her existence without a sense of death and destiny. She kinda seems depressed if you look at her last words, which may be thought as sad, too bad SE didn't properly flesh her out.

Overall success- Again, destiny plays a major role in FF8, apparently, but before that, let me go to the other villains first.
Garland failed, as the light warriors stopped the endless cycle I believe. So did everybody until Ex-death.
Ex-death achieved his first goal of the void, then went psycho and wanted everything destroyed inwhich he faild, I believe the void got to him.
Kefka achieved his goal, but I believe his goal was set to low, and the fact he never had a goal to begin with. He basically just achieved godhood.
Sephiroth, I'll leave him to heartless.
Kuja, I'll leave him also cause I don't know enough.
Sin, yeh... Yu Yevon. He succeeded, plain and simple. Though he wasn't the smartest, being that he could easily die from people who had a brain and knowledge about Yu Yevon.
Vayne also succeeded, but as I posted before, his goal wasn't as hard to accomplish, being that I believe other villians could have done easily.

Okay, Ultimecia. To become the singularity of a time and space compression is pretty damn high, especially with the fact that she DID succeed, she did. Again, destiney played a part in squall and Co. entrance in the final time compressed state, the final form of ultimecia. For her goal, and how far she went, I believe she had the highest goal and achieved all but .0001% of it. SHe was finished with Time compression. PIS, played in when Squall killed her. Odine created Junctioning, giving the humans above normal powers, but none in comparative to Sorceresses. He had no means to beat her, as same with Cloud and Sephiroth. They had no weaknesses per say, just flaws in their plans. And yes, they both had flaws in their plans, if they didn't they wouldn't have had the opportunity to loose.

Damn that was long and took me about an hour of research.