The Ending, your thoughts. (Spoliers duh!)

[Unknown Entity]

I'm just glad I wouldn't sacrifice my friends as quickly as you evidently would..

How dare you insinuate such a thing. Don't forget that we're talking about fiction here, 'hon'.

Might I also add and remind that Fang and Vanille Chose and Wanted To sacrifice themselves. And at the end, they seemed pretty happy and content with their deed.

Agreed. At the end, Fang and Vanille had the choice to join the others in their circle, but didn't and made their own. They wanted to sacrifice themselves for the good of their 'family'. Also, they were HOW old now? I'd be sick of living, especially if my hometown and old friends and family were long gone.

Again, they had the choice.

I didn't see a sad ending either. I can see how it could be, but I thought it was happy all in all.

[GranFran]

How dare you insinuate such a thing. Don't forget that we're talking about fiction here, 'hon'.



Agreed. At the end, Fang and Vanille had the choice to join the others in their circle, but didn't and made their own. They wanted to sacrifice themselves for the good of their 'family'. Also, they were HOW old now? I'd be sick of living, especially if my hometown and old friends and family were long gone.

Again, they had the choice.

I didn't see a sad ending either. I can see how it could be, but I thought it was happy all in all.

I can say anything I like within reason, hon, it is a forum remember? However, in my own defense, I resented the comment Andro made about 'what did Fang and Vanille have to live for?'

I resented that remark because I felt they had as much to live for as the other characters, IF not more.. I think they put in their 'time' of servitude by being forced to destroy their own home and then go into crystal stasis for 200 years, they are both young and have a whole life ahead of them, especially Vanille.. More then any of the others they 'paid their dues' and putting them back in stasis was a pretty dirty trick..

I don't really care if you agree with me or not or how many do or do not agree with me, nor does it particularly matter to me if I'm being ganged up on by those of you who have been in here forever and don't LIKE other people, especially new people like myself, not bowing down to your own vaulted opinions..

I can take anything you dish out and give back as good as I get.. My opinion of the game's ending stands.. I didn't like it, felt it was a cop-out and could have come up with a better one without a whole lot of effort..

And your entitled to think the ending was fine the way it happened, 'hon', I personally have no problem with that..

[Andromeda]

That wasn't a comment it was a question that I posing to the previous poster. It was not a rhetorical question, I wanted to know what they believe that they had to live for besides themselves.

And you seem to be under the assumption that I or anyone else is trying to telling you want you can and cannot have an opinion on. That what we say is truth because we're veterans. None of that is actually happening, I am not saying you're wrong. I haven't said that anywhere. All I'm doing is providing counter arguments, this is a discuss/debate. It happens when people have differences of opinions.

And you have yet to actually answer my question. Who would you have sacrificed if not Fang and Vanille?

And what ending would you have made to make it better than the one that happened?

[Unknown Entity]

I can say anything I like within reason, hon, it is a forum remember? However, in my own defense, I resented the comment Andro made about 'what did Fang and Vanille have to live for?'

Indeed you are a member. Like all of us here. Yet I resent newer members who come here and make personal accusations about older members whom they do not know. Especially if it's over a video game, with a fictional story, and having a different opinion on it.

May I point out where I quoted you again?

No one is taking your opinion from you. No one has jumped up and called you wrong. People have explained certain things in regards with your opinion, and you've taken that the wrong way.

EDIT: I'm also curious as to who you'd have sacrificed instead?

Fang and Vanille made the most sense to me. Perhaps their fate was their focus? What if becoming Raganark had nothing to do with the rest of the party? You have to take that into consideration too, because the focus was hard to work out for everyone involved.

[GranFran]

Indeed you are a member. Like all of us here. Yet I resent newer members who come here and make personal accusations about older members whom they do not know. Especially if it's over a video game, with a fictional story, and having a different opinion on it.

May I point out where I quoted you again?

No one is taking your opinion from you. No one has jumped up and called you wrong. People have explained certain things in regards with your opinion, and you've taken that the wrong way.

EDIT: I'm also curious as to who you'd have sacrificed instead?

Fang and Vanille made the most sense to me. Perhaps their fate was their focus? What if becoming Raganark had nothing to do with the rest of the party? You have to take that into consideration too, because the focus was hard to work out for everyone involved.

I would not have 'sacrificed' anyone, period.. Have never seen the need to do so.. The story could have been written with a far happier and better and 'longer', more enjoyable, ending.. I said it before and will say it again, Fang and Vanille, out of all the characters deserved, after all they had been through, to live a long and happy life..

Saying they were 'out of time and/or place' to me, is simply a cop-out by the writers to make the story end abruptly and without much effort or thought.. The necessity of having them become 'Ragnarok' to 'save' Cocoon was too easy and, if it was necessary, why have them go back in 'stasis' again?

Fang was Ragnarok once and it didn't kill her, it was a Fal'Cie that put her and Vanille in crystal stasis, not Ragnarok, right? So, if she or Vanille became Ragnarok in order to save Cocoon this time, then which Fal'Cie turned them into crystal? And why was it even necessary to do so?

Once Ragnarok saved Cocoon, that should have been that.. They fullfilled their focus to become the beast and with no more Fal'Cie around their brands should have disappeared and they should have been free to rejoin their friends and 'family' and help settle the 'new world'..

Nope, it was just too easy a way out.. I see absolutely nothing wrong with ALL the characters having a happy ending.. I guess I just don't like seeing anyone treated unfairly or unjustly, even in a video game..

[Zargabaath]

I think what GranFran is getting at is how "Deus Ex" the ending was. How Vanille and Fang transformed into Ragnarok and saved Cocoon. First off, how did they know what powers Ragnarok had that could possibly save it? I've said before that the nature of Ragnarok was not explained in the game I guess such vagueness allowed the ending. Could a person who turned into Ragnarok control the themself? For such a pretty big plot device they leave Ragnarok in the dark. Perhaps they were too focused on the character development and not the plot that this was overlooked.

More "Deus Ex" is how did the party get out of the cyrstal stasis? Some people theorized that it was the Goddess Etro, but that theory has little proof besides that she crystalized Vanille and Fang 500 years ago. Some may say that the Fal'Cie's power of humanity/L'Cie vanished with the destruction of Orphan which really needs more explanation. The Fal'Cie needed Orphan so that they could do their function for Cocoon, exist, to still have their immense power to fight, and to brand humans into L'Cie. Now Cocoon is saved and it is said that the Fal'Cie don't have the power to control humans anymore, is that because they all died after Orphan died or that they don't have the power anymore to do so anymore? What would have to be the best option for that question would be that they died because if they survived it wouldn't make sense that the Fal'Cie were too weak; Pulse Fal'Cie didn't depend on Orphan and after the War of Transgression their zealous behavior in branding humans left and right helped make humans extinct on Pulse. Of course this isn't gone into detail because FF XIII's story was seperated from the world - to its detriment.

The above subject brings up another issue in the story. If the party was decrystalized because the Fal'Cie were destroyed when Cocoon fell... Sorry to interject that sentence but I thought just crossed my mind: Why would it matter about the other Fal'Cie of Cocoon if they perished and are not in relation to the party and Serah? I say this because they were branded by Anima, possibly. So wouldn't the death of Anima have freed them from their focus and that they never would've been crystalized? Another subject that should've been touched on: can a Fal'Cie control the L'Cie from another Fal'Cie (in the sense of crystalizing them or decrystalizing)? Fal'Cie crystalized L'Cie who succeeded in their focus that way they could use them later for another focus whenever the Fal'Cie needed them. As I was initially saying if the party was freed because the Fal'Cie were destroyed at the end wouldn't that be inconsequential to them because they were, possibly, branded by Anima who died in the beginning of the game. It also would have been good to know if Vanille and Fang were branded by Anima as well so that we could know if they would have been affected by Anima's death. They are in the same vestige as Anima but I don't find that conclusive evidence that they were branded by the same Fal'Cie they slept with in the vestige.

Of course as I said before, was it truly Anima that branded the party? The datalog says that the party was drawn through a rift where an immense otherworldly presence awaited them - I think it was a god, possibly Gran Pulse. However, the party member who could've divulged information on their branding, Vanille, said nothing on the matter. Whether what happened to the party was normal or weird; Vanille unfortunately decides not to talk about it, though she doesn't mind talking about other stuff. This plot point isn't discussed leaving it in ambiguity. If the party was branded by a god then it wouldn't matter if the Cocoon Fal'Cie lost the power to control L'Cie anymore. And if it was a god that branded the party it must have duped Barthandelus and all the other Fal'Cie, however, that, if true, did not go into detail. Also, if it was a god why would it crystalize the party after surviving Cocoon's fall? The Cocoon Fal'Cie had lost power, through death or just in a weakened state, the god would no longer need to trick the Fal'Cie of these L'Cie. Once again was the connection between Orphan the other Fal'Cie more important than the game suggested? Pulse Fal'Cie could still turn L'Cie into crystal, make L'Cie, etc but they didn't need Orphan's power to sustain a huge satellite in the air as their Cocoon counterparts. This could be in part to the nature of Cocoon Fal'Cie being different from Pulse Fal'Cie; that the Cocoon Fal'Cie were created by Lindzei and not Gran Pulse (Fell Lindzei Analect VIII). Were Lindzei's Fal'Cie weaker inherently than Gran Pulse's in that they needed a Fal'Cie to supply them with more power to do all that they were required and without that power supply - Orphan - they are not as strong as Pulse Fal'Cie.

While Cocoon Fal'Cie may have become weaker the game is not so clear about Pulse Fal'Cie, being they of a different line. Pulse Fal'Cie decimated the human population after the War of Transgression what is to stop them now? Also, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this: nobody is a L'Cie anymore and the people of Cocoon have to survive against the dangers of Pulse by their own power. Yeah, good luck with that as they are probably going to get wiped. Suggesting that they have the Guardian Corps and PSICOM does them no good. Guardian Corps, while, more experienced aren't strong enough to tackle Pulse terrors. And PSICOM, the pitiful organization that had hardly any experience. The same PSICOM that when its leaders hit the field it was game over. Yeah, I liked how Yaag controlled the situation when they surrounded Lightning and Hope - he runs away. Or how when the smoke grenade goes off Yaag doesn't know what to do. Or Jihl's "trap" which was basically to throw a lot of troops in their way similiar to Yaag's plan in Palumpolum. We get to see the "brains" of PSICOM do their "fantastic work" in how they can stay calm and in control when things go south. I would say with that outlook Final Fantasy XIII has a very sad ending because humanity has little hope of surviving on Pulse unless all the big badies disappeared magically.

This game had a very interesting world that had a lot of great things going for it, however it appears that Motomu Toriyama forgot to clear everything up involving the world; he made sure to go into detail with the characters, to cover their angles but even in a character-driven story the world needs to solid and there are many questions.

[GranFran]

While Cocoon Fal'Cie may have become weaker the game is not so clear about Pulse Fal'Cie, being they of a different line. Pulse Fal'Cie decimated the human population after the War of Transgression what is to stop them now? Also, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this: nobody is a L'Cie anymore and the people of Cocoon have to survive against the dangers of Pulse by their own power. Yeah, good luck with that as they are probably going to get wiped. Suggesting that they have the Guardian Corps and PSICOM does them no good. Guardian Corps, while, more experienced aren't strong enough to tackle Pulse terrors. And PSICOM, the pitiful organization that had hardly any experience. The same PSICOM that when its leaders hit the field it was game over. Yeah, I liked how Yaag controlled the situation when they surrounded Lightning and Hope - he runs away. Or how when the smoke grenade goes off Yaag doesn't know what to do. Or Jihl's "trap" which was basically to throw a lot of troops in their way similiar to Yaag's plan in Palumpolum. We get to see the "brains" of PSICOM do their "fantastic work" in how they can stay calm and in control when things go south. I would say with that outlook Final Fantasy XIII has a very sad ending because humanity has little hope of surviving on Pulse unless all the big badies disappeared magically.

This game had a very interesting world that had a lot of great things going for it, however it appears that Motomu Toriyama forgot to clear everything up involving the world; he made sure to go into detail with the characters, to cover their angles but even in a character-driven story the world needs to solid and there are many questions.

Must disagree with you on your last statement here, hon.. Human Beings will not only survive just find and dandy on Gran Pulse, they will, in short order, bring about the extinction of most, if not all, the indigenous life forms without a moment's thought or hesitation.. Come on, hon, it's what we do best, we are GOOD at it, very good..

Heck, it only took our ancestors less then 10,000 years to do the same on planet Earth here and they didn't have access to huge weapons of mass destruction like PSICOM and the Guardian Corp do, hell even the ordinary citizens of Cocoon will quickly pick up arms to join in the hunting..

No, no, don't fret for the Cocoonites, they will soon take care of those big, bad beasties, including Titan and Atomos.. I have no fear for them, human's are natural born killers, mostly of innocents creatures that don't have the ability of fighting back against big guns.. After all, we call it 'sport' and they'll be lots of 'big game hunters' on Gran Pulse very soon.. Come back to Gran Pulse in just a few short years and see the big, dirty polluted cities, surrounded by farmlands as far as the eye can see.. Gone will be all the natural beauty, the wild animals, the untamed wilderness (except perhaps a few small parks and reserves).. It will be just like Earth is now, in deep doo-doo from over-population, running out of energy, in the middle of vast global weather changes (brought on too quickly by the ceaseless burning of fossil fuels) and all the little Cocoonites will be wishing they were back on Cocoon being taken care of by the nice Fal'Cie again..