Let's Talk About Free Will...

[Leksandar]

You said in your very first paragraph that everything we do is a choice. Even in your coffee shop parallel, your decision to be in the coffee shop to begin with is still a decision. No one is holding a gun to your head telling you that you have to be sitting in that coffee shop. Your mind doesn't just shut off, with the exception of the receptors that will eventually lead you to the coffee shop.

No one's holding a gun to your head, but the choice you've made isn't something you as some kind of holy, self-sufficient being has decided to do from thin air. You're just receiving information from your surroundings and processing them into choices. “You” have no say in the matter. It's just cause and effect. What I'm trying to say is that a calculator shouldn't be punished for the numbers he or she receives, and that we shouldn't eat other types of calculators just because they calculate in different ways.

For your comparison to someone choosing a business degree, you once again missed the entire point. They chose their degree. They didn't just pick a degree out of a hat and go with it.

They chose the degree because their surroundings demanded it. If we were to go back in time and put this business degree person into a dark room with just the necessary food and water, and then let him out as an adult and ask him what kind of degree he wants – do you think he would pick the business degree?

Not only that, but they didn't also just follow some invisible path to become rich. In fact, most rich people, I would wager, are rich due to their own efforts and not because they just fell, wondrously, into a huge pile of money.

These efforts come as a consequence of their upbringing, their surroundings, their culture etc. Also. Someone owning a mine doesn't earn money because he has a mine he has worked hard for. He owns money because people work in the mines. Even though it's his mine; would you really say it's fair that he gets more of the money than all the miners added together just because the miners have no other choice but to work for him? I mean, since everyone's supposedly born equal. I could go farther into how insanely mistaken you are here, as I guarantee you there are just as many people who work hard and aren't rich as there are hard working people who are rich, but I believe this to be enough.

Your analogy about the holocaust is just stupid. What in the world does that have to do with free will? You're trying to compare that to the mass murder of animals? So basically you're comparing Jews, Gypsies, and other minorities to animals? There's a difference between animals and humans. For starters, animals aren't people.

That's just semantics and not an argument, and please don't pull the sentimental minority card on me. I'm not comparing Jews and gypsies to animals. I'm comparing human kind in general to animals. Since there is nothing to separate us from animals, the lack of a nerve system and consciousness separates us from plants and bacteria, there is in my opinion no difference between killing a human and killing an animal.

Again, your main flaw is just that you seem to ignore the fact that people have the innate ability to think and make decisions.

This innate ability, which animals also have by the way, is just the ability to process information received from your surroundings. Thinking is just playing with the influences you've received, not picking original thoughts out of thin air.

[Sasquatch]

No one's holding a gun to your head, but the choice you've made isn't something you as some kind of holy, self-sufficient being has decided to do from thin air.

Is it a choice, or is it not? If it's a choice, it IS something we all make. If it's not a choice -- if nothing is a choice -- then what's the point? You didn't "choose" to come here and post, nobody "chose" to reply to you? Then what's the point of any reactions?

So here's a question: If I go kill somebody, why punish me, if my surroundings made me do it?

What I'm trying to say is that a calculator shouldn't be punished for the numbers he or she receives, and that we shouldn't eat other types of calculators just because they calculate in different ways.

So you're a vegan?

They chose the degree because their surroundings demanded it.

Their surroundings didn't "demand" anything. They might have "suggested", sure, but didn't "demand".

If we were to go back in time and put this business degree person into a dark room with just the necessary food and water, and then let him out as an adult and ask him what kind of degree he wants – do you think he would pick the business degree?

They might. Of course, another type of education might suit them better, but it's all in what they choose. There are pros and cons to every choice, we just must weigh every option.

These efforts come as a consequence of their upbringing, their surroundings, their culture etc.

If that was the case, everybody with similar upbringings and similar surroundings and similar culture would make the same (or similar) choices to every situation. I don't see my entire neighborhood working towards the same educational goals I am, nor does my entire neighborhood make the same choices I do.

Also. Someone owning a mine doesn't earn money because he has a mine he has worked hard for. He owns money because people work in the mines.

And how did he get the money to buy the mine? Let me guess -- his parents gave it to him? Where did they get it? Their parents? Somewhere back in time, there was one person with a crapload of money and they left it to their children, who passed it down through generations so that it spread out to all the rich people nowadays?

Even though it's his mine; would you really say it's fair that he gets more of the money than all the miners added together just because the miners have no other choice but to work for him?

First: Yes. If he owns the mine, he controls what he pays. That's his right.

Second: Why don't the miners have any other choice? Lemme guess, the rich control everything and the poor can never do anything but work for the rich?

Third: If it's all predetermined and we don't have any real "choice" anyway, why are you complaining? It's not the owner's fault.

I could go farther into how insanely mistaken you are here ...

Because everybody who doesn't agree with you is "insanely mistaken" ... and you have hoards of people coming in here and posting their full support of everything you say? Or are we all "insanely mistaken"?

... as I guarantee you there are just as many people who work hard and aren't rich as there are hard working people who are rich ...

In which country? Are you talking about in a capitalist economy, where better work will net better pay?

Or are you talking about specific jobs? The man who digs ditches or mops floors may work his ass off every day, but won't earn as much -- and doesn't deserve as much -- as the doctor who is more specialized. Anybody can dig ditches and mop floors. There are three ways to make more money: work harder, work longer, or work smarter.

... but I believe this to be enough.

It's not. Keep trying.

That's just semantics and not an argument ...

"Animals aren't people" is as much semantics as "people are just animals", which you're trying to push.

... and please don't pull the sentimental minority card on me. I'm not comparing Jews and gypsies to animals. I'm comparing human kind in general to animals.

Jews and gypsies are humans, part of humankind. Trying to say that human life is no more valuable than animal life is ridiculously ignorant.

Since there is nothing to separate us from animals, the lack of a nerve system and consciousness separates us from plants and bacteria, there is in my opinion no difference between killing a human and killing an animal.

Humans have an extended consciousness and ability to reason. Which means we have something to separate us from animals.

And if you think that killing an animal is so bad ... you're a vegetarian at least, right? Or, further, if you believe that "mistreatment" of animals (and, thus, humans) is wrong, you're a vegan, right? No milk, no jell-o, no honey, no glue, no shampoo or makeup, no leather, etc. etc.?

Either that, or, if you believe human and animal life to be equal, how many people have you eaten? How many chunks of man-meat have been in your mouth, good buddy?

[SOLDIER #819]

So here's a question: If I go kill somebody, why punish me, if my surroundings made me do it?

I never understood this line of reasoning. People seem to feel that intent is necessary for punishment, but I think one can be "punished" regardless. Not because one has done something "wrong", but to detour further "wrongdoing". Most people, regardless of beliefs, seem to sooner or later arrive at the conclusion that a secure society is the best one. Dealing out justice (however one perceives it) is the best way to do this.

If we assume that none of us have free will and you kill someone, we'll probably lock you away so that you don't come after someone else and cause panic. Just because we don't have free will doesn't mean we also lack something like fear.