The Ending, your thoughts. (Spoliers duh!)

[Jonathanx221]

My thoughts were....

Best ending ever!

Spoiler: That chick, leona lewis or whatever, her song kicked in, fit the mood perfect. Badass CGI Cutscene, I loved it, I wanna watch it over and over. Happy in one way, sad in another. Fang and Vanille turned to crystal holding hands. Serah was back, Dajh was back, everyone was happy. Except where was Hope's dad? I forget what happened to him

So overall, very good ending IMO.

[Voltaire Adams]

Spoiler: My problem with this one, and my problem with FFXII as well is that the endings seem to be getting shorter. I mean the old school endings like FFVI had really long endings, some even up to half an hour long. FFIX was the last one to really have a huge ending. It's not that the content wasen't good, but there was nothing that really felt like a reward. I want to know what happened to the character more then 10 minutes after the game ended. The ending should have been the wedding between Snow and Serah. That would have fit perfectly. This one just left me wanting more. The credits, I believe were longer then the final FMV.

I hope this is something they fix, rather then it becoming the norm.

[Toxo]

Spoiler: I was very disappointed when Hope's father wasn't shown. Hope had just turned into this inspiring young lad who wasn't insecure and narrowminded like in the beginning. I would've wanted to see the proud face of his father when he saw what his son and the other ex-l'Cie had accomplished. Other than that, I think it was a very nice ending. I liked how Hope and Lightning had grown so close and how Snow was so eager to get wed.

And I completely agree, Voltaire. The endings are getting too short. At least FFXII had two ending-movies and a sequel to make up for it.

[Ralz]

Why bother with spoiler boxes? Anyone coming into this thread should know what they're in for... >_>

Anyway, I found the ending good. But, like people are saying, it's so short! Definitely way shorter than FFX and FFXII, which had long endings. Then again, with what they had to work with, I guess I can see why its so short. Maybe they should've made Cocoon's collision stunt even more dramatic and lasting a little longer... Nah, even then it wouldn't be very long.

Beyond that, it does end the stories pretty good. However, I wanted to see Barthelomew (Hope's dad) to show up and say something like he's proud of his son who's grown up. I was hoping Serah would say something like "You miss me, Claire?" Because the name said once wasn't enough.

As for Snow and Serah, I was hoping it would, like, fast forward to the wedding, they kiss, and then camera pan to Cocoon or something. Instead, its all up to interpretation. And Sazh is still the comic relief guy who never gets a break.

At least Vanille and Fang get a semi-good ending. We can tell they'll be back, possibly in a sequel, to go on another adventure. And I want to know what'll happen to Cocoon, now. Do they move down to Pulse? Not sure how we saved it by turning it into a giant christmas ornament, but...

The ending gets a 9/10, because its so good, and solves some stories. I take 1 point away because it's seriously hampened by its short length. But, still, I like it. Too bad you've gotta kill the hardest final boss in the whole series to reach it. O_o (And no, I'm never letting that go.)

[Andromeda]

Yeah I think people will hate the boss and passionately want to kill him not because he does something so evil that you are looking forward to putting an end to his plans. It is because he was so annoying to kill that you will take great pleasure in seeing it dead at your hands. I don't think I relished in the defeat of any FF villain so much since Seymour and his stupid zombie full cure move. Which is funny since the final form of the boss is awkwardly easy compared to the previous form.

I was more surprised and disappointed that there was nothing after the credits and before "The End" screen. I've looked forward to seeing a little jump forward in time or something since FFVII. Though I sort of joke that the ending couldn't have been too long since they were running with My Hands which is only a 4 minute song I think.

I would have liked to have seen how life was continuing a few years later. But it was still a great bittersweet ending. There was still a sacrifice that needed to be made in the end.

I wonder how many hours or days they were frozen in crystal before being changed back. It was obvious that they did stay as crystal for a time. And they almost tried to make you think that they were all crystals and that was going to be how things ended. Which I think might have been the best ending, but they wanted to have a happy ending. I think it would have been more meaningful the whole sacrifice for people that totally fear and hate you by giving up your life or at least living in the current time as they don't really die, but get revived later.

As much as I like seeing sad endings I don't always want them. But there are certain times when it can really work out to pull on the emotions and work with the way the story is going.

[Unknown Entity]

It certainly wasn't what I was expecting, that's for sure. I don't know why, but every time summoning Ragnarok was mentioned in the game, I imagined this huge, dragon-like creature, that was bigger than Cocoon, either destroying it or saving it. ^^;

I'll admit to being a little disappointed with the ending. I felt as if I'd just read a very good book, but the author had rushed the ending. More could have been done with it, and as some of you mentioned, it would have been nice to see a flash-forward to the future to see perhaps Snow and Serah's wedding, and how life was going for everyone on Pulse. I was in the hopes that after the credits, they'd be a scene involving Fang and Vanille, who were perhaps having a dream in their crystal state or them a few hundred years later back to normal (if that was possible. I am a little confused about what they've become now - other than crystal, smartass).

Leona Lewis' song "My Hands" fitted in pretty well, even though I was kind of dreading it - I wouldn't say I was a huge fan of Ms Lewis, but I actually like the song now. ^^;

So... a longer ending would have been nice. It's still pretty good, but it's not my favourite ending.

[GranFran]

Well, I already said I didn't like the ending and could write a better one myself.. The fact that Cocoon is now on Pulse and I'm sure the people will eventually spread out and settle it is kind of a foregone conclusion..

I did not see the necessity to have Fang and Vanille turn to crystal to save Cocoon, hell, Titan was standing right there and could just have easily reached out and caught it safely..

I just felt it was a cop-out, an easy way to end it and it didn't require much thought to do it this way..

As for FF12, the ending wasn't that great either but at least it HAD an ending that lasted longer then two minutes.. There were a lot of things I didn't like about this game but I'd put the ending up there in the top slot..

[Taco-Calamitous]

Was titan that giant thing that ate the adamantois*sp* in one gulp during that first Gran Pulse cut scene? I dunno if he really has the interests of Cocoon in mind... Then again, I could be wrong (is there back story to him, or something?)

In any case... it was alright. Like a lot of people, I felt that it was a bit too short, and I was hoping for something more. More of an epilogue. I mean, this ending had slightly more resolution, but less to it than the FF7 ending, which had next to nothing (except Red XIII and his kids running around a possibly apocalyptic landscape.) The thing with Fang and Vanille was pretty cool. I also would've liked to hear a vocal reprise of that one pop song that played many times throughout the game. Anyhoo...

Wuv, Yer Mom

[Andromeda]

Yeah Titan is the big fal'Cie that's the size of a mountain that ate an Adamantoise when you arrive just to prove that he is so big and great. And there is a story behind him. Most of which is told to you when you get to the Faultwarrens and the rest you pick up from the datalog. He does have a purpose in the world and ends up causing you some grief later on even if it is necessary for you.

Which pop song are you referring to?

[Taco-Calamitous]

I don't know the name or the lyrics, but it's played during the title screen.

Do you fight the Titan? My friend said he looked for him in the player's guide and couldn't find him, so that makes us assume he isn't... He did yell at me today when I accepted a quest though, and the sky went dark, heh. I should read those datalogs. Anyhoo...

Wuv, Yer Mom

[Andromeda]

Ah the song on the title screen. It is a good song and I think it might be their "new" version of the Crystal theme or something.

As for Titan, no you never fight him, though I wondered if you did myself and figured that if there was something moving in the world eventually I'd have to fight it. It's sort of what you expect from a RPG, but nope you don't. It would have been cool if not an instant KO on our part as his hand is like 10 times larger than any one of the characters. But you do talk to him and there are the Titan's Trials in the Faultwarrens.

And there are 7 Ce'ith stones I think in a circle and they all are linked to Titan and anytime you activate one of those missions Titan will cast a dark cloud over the entire area. There is an advantage to it though, since apparently the sheep's fur will be different depending on the weather conditions and dark clouds emitted from Titan I think qualifies as a weather condition.

It's not a big deal to accept the missions, though they are pretty rough depending on which one you pick.

[Nunubx]

First off, let me say that I loved the ending to FFXIII, and Leona Lewis's song over it just made it better, But as Ralz said, the ending could have been longer or had a epilogue after the credits.

Picture this: Snow and Serah have just been married and everyone is at the wedding. At the reception when everyone is eating whatever Cocoon people eat, Hope turns his head and in the distance, he sees two figures that almost look like Fang and Vanille, then Lighting calls his name and he turns to see her walking towards him. When he turns back, he notices that the figures are gone. When Lighting walks up too him, she asks what's wrong. Hope replies "Nothing." He suggests that Lighting should go back to the party and that he'll catch up. Lighting says okay and walks back to the party. When Hope starts to walk back, he turns his head back at where the two figures were, smiles and looks up to the sky and says "You two will always be watching us, won't you?"


Corny, I know, but at was the best I could come up at the moment.

[GranFran]

First off, let me say that I loved the ending to FFXIII, and Leona Lewis's song over it just made it better, But as Ralz said, the ending could have been longer or had a epilogue after the credits.

Picture this: Snow and Serah have just been married and everyone is at the wedding. At the reception when everyone is eating whatever Cocoon people eat, Hope turns his head and in the distance, he sees two figures that almost look like Fang and Vanille, then Lighting calls his name and he turns to see her walking towards him. When he turns back, he notices that the figures are gone. When Lighting walks up too him, she asks what's wrong. Hope replies "Nothing." He suggests that Lighting should go back to the party and that he'll catch up. Lighting says okay and walks back to the party. When Hope starts to walk back, he turns his head back at where the two figures were, smiles and looks up to the sky and says "You two will always be watching us, won't you?"


Corny, I know, but at was the best I could come up at the moment.

Not corny and not bad either.. But I still don't like that fact that Vanille and Fang were 'used' as scapegoats by the writers for an easy way out.. It's like they couldn't come up with a better ending so decided to 'sacrifice' them..
Sorry, I didn't like it or get it really..

Found it totally unnecessary to create an unhappy ending at all for that matter, I mean SE seems to think they just MUST make the endings to FF sad for some strange reason.. The only FF game that I can recall off the top of my head that had a decent, satisfying ending was FFX-2 and only if you got 100% completion.. There may have been earlier ones, FFIX I think also had a happy ending, but I'm not sure since it's been years since I played any of them.. But I hated the fact that one of the best characters SE ever created, Auron, was already dead and then, of coarse, had to go at the end..

Still, when all is said and done I liked the characters in this game by the end and, naturally, having grown to like them, I disliked the fact that ANY of them needed to be sacrificed at all.. I truly think both Fang and Vanille suffered quite enough having woke to find anyone they ever knew dead and gone and their home destroyed.. They deserved more then any of them to have a chance to live a full and happy life, especially little Vanille.. I don't know if SquareEnix is going to make a sequel to this game, I doubt it, although the sequel to FFX, X-2, proved a huge commercial success, I don't see them doing it again..

But being the romantic I am I can certainly hope!

[Victoria]

FF13's ending isn't sad at all. Vanille and Fang fused to become Ragnarok to save Cocoon.
If anything, that's a happy ending. And they turned to crystal afterward, only to wake up at some other time.

And the other members lost their marks completely. To me, that means happy.

I don't know where this "sad" stuff is coming from at all.

Also, FF13 did not need a longer ending at all. It's not a movie. All other RPGs have short endings like this.

Did I care about seeing the wedding at all? No, because it has nothing to do with anything. Even at the end, they said they still had to plan it.

[Andromeda]

I don't know if Fang and Vanille can wake up from their crystal sleep. I mean they are at the center of that massive crystal support for Pulse. If they wake up and the crystal support doesn't vanish with them then they are stuck and dead. If they do wake up and the crystal support goes with them then Pulse no longer has its support and crashes into Cocoon also killing them since they are underneath it. It's a bit of a lose lose situation for them.

I think they are the permanent hanger for the Christmas tree ornament.

Well having Fang and Vanille sacrifice their continued existence in order to save everyone while the rest of the party gets to live and be merry I think would qualify as being a little sad. Everything is good in the end, but someone had to be left in an endless state of support which is pretty much death also for it to be a happy ending for everyone else.

[Taco-Calamitous]

Also, FF13 did not need a longer ending at all. It's not a movie. All other RPGs have short endings like this.

What about Final Fantasy 6, 8, 9, 10, 12 (hell, 4 too) Chrono Trigger, Super Mario RPG... etc. You get the idea. Only the Sith deal in absolutes, you know Anyhoo...

Wuv, Yer Mom

[GranFran]

FF13's ending isn't sad at all. Vanille and Fang fused to become Ragnarok to save Cocoon.
If anything, that's a happy ending. And they turned to crystal afterward, only to wake up at some other time.

And the other members lost their marks completely. To me, that means happy.

I don't know where this "sad" stuff is coming from at all.

Also, FF13 did not need a longer ending at all. It's not a movie. All other RPGs have short endings like this.

Did I care about seeing the wedding at all? No, because it has nothing to do with anything. Even at the end, they said they still had to plan it.

Everyone has a right to their opinion, hon.. No need to get violent about it, it's just a game..

[Reverend Red Mage]

But I still don't like that fact that Vanille and Fang were 'used' as scapegoats by the writers for an easy way out.. It's like they couldn't come up with a better ending so decided to 'sacrifice' them..

THANK YOU. I'm glad I'm not the only one that thought the same way. It just didn't make sense to me; both of them had a lot to live for.

Also, I'm kind of confused why all the l'Cie lost their crests... even though Orphan is destroyed, it kinda didn't make sense to me. Did I miss something in the storyline along the way?

[Andromeda]

Well we don't know what happens when a focus is completed and the l'Cie wakes up from their crystal sleep. Fang and Vanille didn't complete it the first time so they still had their focus to do. It might be possible that after a focus is actually completed the brand disappears and you go into crystal sleep for a while.

What did Fang and Vanille have to live for besides each other? Their village is gone and everyone they knew is long dead. Their only attachments to the world were themselves. So I don't think they had nearly as much to live for as the rest of the party that still had a life available to them in the present time.

[GranFran]

Well we don't know what happens when a focus is completed and the l'Cie wakes up from their crystal sleep. Fang and Vanille didn't complete it the first time so they still had their focus to do. It might be possible that after a focus is actually completed the brand disappears and you go into crystal sleep for a while.

What did Fang and Vanille have to live for besides each other? Their village is gone and everyone they knew is long dead. Their only attachments to the world were themselves. So I don't think they had nearly as much to live for as the rest of the party that still had a life available to them in the present time.

Well, I'm more then happy to disagree with you there.. Fang and Vanille had just as much to live for and to look forward to as any of the others.. They had all become friends and 'family', IF you'd bother to recall what Fang told Vanille in the 'Flower Glade' after Vanille's fight with her Eidolon..
Come on, it was just an easy way out for the writers, that's all.. "Let's save some money and make a real short ending" is all the designer's were thinking about..
I'm just glad I wouldn't sacrifice my friends as quickly as you evidently would.. No going on any quests or adventures with you, girl..

[Andromeda]

I don't recall the party taking a vote on who's becoming Ragnarok and deciding that out of the six of them that they were going to make Vanille and Fang do it. They decided it on their own regardless of what Lightning and the others had to say about it.

So having Fang and Vanille sacrifice themselves equals short ending and them not sacrificing themselves equals long ending. I'm failing to the logic there.

But let's face it Orphan was dead, you killed it. That means that Cocoon is screwed. So what do you want them to do? Be selfish and say we're not going to give up our lives to save Pulse and indirectly cause the death of tens of millions of human beings? The Ragnarok scene was not some grabbed out of thin air concept, if they had not done something Cocoon would have probably exploded on the surface of the Pulse and then you would have had a really sad ending since no one would have survived, including the party.

Considering you killed Orphan, Cocoon was going down. So something had to be done. It's either die with everyone because you're too afraid to sacrifice yourself to save millions or make the selfless act of giving your life so that others (despite them totally hating and fearing you) may live on.

[Unknown Entity]

I'm just glad I wouldn't sacrifice my friends as quickly as you evidently would..

How dare you insinuate such a thing. Don't forget that we're talking about fiction here, 'hon'.

Might I also add and remind that Fang and Vanille Chose and Wanted To sacrifice themselves. And at the end, they seemed pretty happy and content with their deed.

Agreed. At the end, Fang and Vanille had the choice to join the others in their circle, but didn't and made their own. They wanted to sacrifice themselves for the good of their 'family'. Also, they were HOW old now? I'd be sick of living, especially if my hometown and old friends and family were long gone.

Again, they had the choice.

I didn't see a sad ending either. I can see how it could be, but I thought it was happy all in all.

[GranFran]

How dare you insinuate such a thing. Don't forget that we're talking about fiction here, 'hon'.



Agreed. At the end, Fang and Vanille had the choice to join the others in their circle, but didn't and made their own. They wanted to sacrifice themselves for the good of their 'family'. Also, they were HOW old now? I'd be sick of living, especially if my hometown and old friends and family were long gone.

Again, they had the choice.

I didn't see a sad ending either. I can see how it could be, but I thought it was happy all in all.

I can say anything I like within reason, hon, it is a forum remember? However, in my own defense, I resented the comment Andro made about 'what did Fang and Vanille have to live for?'

I resented that remark because I felt they had as much to live for as the other characters, IF not more.. I think they put in their 'time' of servitude by being forced to destroy their own home and then go into crystal stasis for 200 years, they are both young and have a whole life ahead of them, especially Vanille.. More then any of the others they 'paid their dues' and putting them back in stasis was a pretty dirty trick..

I don't really care if you agree with me or not or how many do or do not agree with me, nor does it particularly matter to me if I'm being ganged up on by those of you who have been in here forever and don't LIKE other people, especially new people like myself, not bowing down to your own vaulted opinions..

I can take anything you dish out and give back as good as I get.. My opinion of the game's ending stands.. I didn't like it, felt it was a cop-out and could have come up with a better one without a whole lot of effort..

And your entitled to think the ending was fine the way it happened, 'hon', I personally have no problem with that..

[Zargabaath]

I think what GranFran is getting at is how "Deus Ex" the ending was. How Vanille and Fang transformed into Ragnarok and saved Cocoon. First off, how did they know what powers Ragnarok had that could possibly save it? I've said before that the nature of Ragnarok was not explained in the game I guess such vagueness allowed the ending. Could a person who turned into Ragnarok control the themself? For such a pretty big plot device they leave Ragnarok in the dark. Perhaps they were too focused on the character development and not the plot that this was overlooked.

More "Deus Ex" is how did the party get out of the cyrstal stasis? Some people theorized that it was the Goddess Etro, but that theory has little proof besides that she crystalized Vanille and Fang 500 years ago. Some may say that the Fal'Cie's power of humanity/L'Cie vanished with the destruction of Orphan which really needs more explanation. The Fal'Cie needed Orphan so that they could do their function for Cocoon, exist, to still have their immense power to fight, and to brand humans into L'Cie. Now Cocoon is saved and it is said that the Fal'Cie don't have the power to control humans anymore, is that because they all died after Orphan died or that they don't have the power anymore to do so anymore? What would have to be the best option for that question would be that they died because if they survived it wouldn't make sense that the Fal'Cie were too weak; Pulse Fal'Cie didn't depend on Orphan and after the War of Transgression their zealous behavior in branding humans left and right helped make humans extinct on Pulse. Of course this isn't gone into detail because FF XIII's story was seperated from the world - to its detriment.

The above subject brings up another issue in the story. If the party was decrystalized because the Fal'Cie were destroyed when Cocoon fell... Sorry to interject that sentence but I thought just crossed my mind: Why would it matter about the other Fal'Cie of Cocoon if they perished and are not in relation to the party and Serah? I say this because they were branded by Anima, possibly. So wouldn't the death of Anima have freed them from their focus and that they never would've been crystalized? Another subject that should've been touched on: can a Fal'Cie control the L'Cie from another Fal'Cie (in the sense of crystalizing them or decrystalizing)? Fal'Cie crystalized L'Cie who succeeded in their focus that way they could use them later for another focus whenever the Fal'Cie needed them. As I was initially saying if the party was freed because the Fal'Cie were destroyed at the end wouldn't that be inconsequential to them because they were, possibly, branded by Anima who died in the beginning of the game. It also would have been good to know if Vanille and Fang were branded by Anima as well so that we could know if they would have been affected by Anima's death. They are in the same vestige as Anima but I don't find that conclusive evidence that they were branded by the same Fal'Cie they slept with in the vestige.

Of course as I said before, was it truly Anima that branded the party? The datalog says that the party was drawn through a rift where an immense otherworldly presence awaited them - I think it was a god, possibly Gran Pulse. However, the party member who could've divulged information on their branding, Vanille, said nothing on the matter. Whether what happened to the party was normal or weird; Vanille unfortunately decides not to talk about it, though she doesn't mind talking about other stuff. This plot point isn't discussed leaving it in ambiguity. If the party was branded by a god then it wouldn't matter if the Cocoon Fal'Cie lost the power to control L'Cie anymore. And if it was a god that branded the party it must have duped Barthandelus and all the other Fal'Cie, however, that, if true, did not go into detail. Also, if it was a god why would it crystalize the party after surviving Cocoon's fall? The Cocoon Fal'Cie had lost power, through death or just in a weakened state, the god would no longer need to trick the Fal'Cie of these L'Cie. Once again was the connection between Orphan the other Fal'Cie more important than the game suggested? Pulse Fal'Cie could still turn L'Cie into crystal, make L'Cie, etc but they didn't need Orphan's power to sustain a huge satellite in the air as their Cocoon counterparts. This could be in part to the nature of Cocoon Fal'Cie being different from Pulse Fal'Cie; that the Cocoon Fal'Cie were created by Lindzei and not Gran Pulse (Fell Lindzei Analect VIII). Were Lindzei's Fal'Cie weaker inherently than Gran Pulse's in that they needed a Fal'Cie to supply them with more power to do all that they were required and without that power supply - Orphan - they are not as strong as Pulse Fal'Cie.

While Cocoon Fal'Cie may have become weaker the game is not so clear about Pulse Fal'Cie, being they of a different line. Pulse Fal'Cie decimated the human population after the War of Transgression what is to stop them now? Also, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this: nobody is a L'Cie anymore and the people of Cocoon have to survive against the dangers of Pulse by their own power. Yeah, good luck with that as they are probably going to get wiped. Suggesting that they have the Guardian Corps and PSICOM does them no good. Guardian Corps, while, more experienced aren't strong enough to tackle Pulse terrors. And PSICOM, the pitiful organization that had hardly any experience. The same PSICOM that when its leaders hit the field it was game over. Yeah, I liked how Yaag controlled the situation when they surrounded Lightning and Hope - he runs away. Or how when the smoke grenade goes off Yaag doesn't know what to do. Or Jihl's "trap" which was basically to throw a lot of troops in their way similiar to Yaag's plan in Palumpolum. We get to see the "brains" of PSICOM do their "fantastic work" in how they can stay calm and in control when things go south. I would say with that outlook Final Fantasy XIII has a very sad ending because humanity has little hope of surviving on Pulse unless all the big badies disappeared magically.

This game had a very interesting world that had a lot of great things going for it, however it appears that Motomu Toriyama forgot to clear everything up involving the world; he made sure to go into detail with the characters, to cover their angles but even in a character-driven story the world needs to solid and there are many questions.

[Victoria]

I'm in agreement with Andro here. And also, my comment is in no way "violent." Everyone on this forum that knows me, know that when I get 'violent', I begin to talk like a sailor.

And what kind of skewed logic is it that just because Andro brought up the argument that Fang/Vanille don't have much to live for automatically means that he'd toss out his friends like trash?

That's just silly. Come on now.

And really, Fang/Vanille were brave and did the right thing. They sacrificed themselves for their "family" because it wasn't their world anymore. They were the ones that were out of place. Do you not realize that Fang/Vanille are like over 200 years old?

[GranFran]

I'm in agreement with Andro here. And also, my comment is in no way "violent." Everyone on this forum that knows me, know that when I get 'violent', I begin to talk like a sailor.

And what kind of skewed logic is it that just because Andro brought up the argument that Fang/Vanille don't have much to live for automatically means that he'd toss out his friends like trash?

That's just silly. Come on now.

And really, Fang/Vanille were brave and did the right thing. They sacrificed themselves for their "family" because it wasn't their world anymore. They were the ones that were out of place. Do you not realize that Fang/Vanille are like over 200 years old?

So, because you feel Fang and Vanille were 'out of place and time' and had been asleep for 200 years, that automatically means they should be sacrificed with no chance of living a nice, normal life like everyone else? Sorry, don't agree.. Of all the characters they were the ones who deserved a chance at a little happiness..

You are also reading a lot into nothing.. I just made my point and my opinion.. I believe I'm entitled to that no matter what, as you and HE!! (Ando is a HE!!?? I guess the avatar threw me the wrong idea, sorry) are.. That's what a 'forum' is really about, you know.. A gathering of minds, opinions, ideas, help and just fun.. You can have a million posts or just one, but once you register and join you are entitled and permitted to have your opinion..

Anytime you feel you need to get 'violent' with me because you don't agree with what I say, do your worst, hon.. It don't mean a thing to me.. I'm far too old, comfy and contented and have handled far worse then anything you could possibly throw at me to let it bother me in the slightest..

[Andromeda]

I'm not debating fairness or what was right or wrong about their choice. I'm just providing the facts as they are present from the game. I'm not making any judgments on their actions. You seem to presume that I am.

However, for the sake of argument, you didn't like that Fang and Vanille sacrificed themselves for the world. The unavoidable fact is that Cocoon was going to crash meaning someone needed to step up and do something. If those two did not who would you have picked to make the sacrifice?

The forum is also a place of debate and discussion. We're allowed to post counter arguments to explain ourselves. There's nothing wrong with debating. I don't believe I ever said you were wrong or you couldn't have an opinion.

[Victoria]

Might I also add and remind that Fang and Vanille Chose and Wanted To sacrifice themselves. And at the end, they seemed pretty happy and content with their deed.

Your reasoning sounds like they didn't want to, or they drew the short straw. Which isn't the case at all. It's not a cop out of the writers or anything.

Someone had to do something otherwise millions of people would crash on Pulse and die.

So I have to ask you also. If you didn't want Fang or Vanille to do it, who would you choose and why?

And for the record, I never said you couldn't have an opinion. Your welcome to whatever you like. Doesn't mean I can't argue against it though.

[Andromeda]

In response to Zargabaath, I know that I was a little puzzled by why they awoke from crystal sleep after only a few hours. When they were waking up I was figuring that they would be waking up a few centuries later and we'd see what progress civilization had made. I was a bit disappointed because it seem a little strange to wake up so fast.

I know what they were doing. They were trying to provide a happy ending for the remaining party members rather than having them be strangers in a strange land centuries later, which I think would have been far more interesting and emotional.

But after the ending I came to his rationale. Ragnarok that was trying to be created by the fal'Cie Bart (something something long) was supposed to be only one person. He only needed one to do it, Ragnarok had that power. Unfortunately, something in Fang weakened or the Goddess stepped in centuries ago before it could be finished, I forget the exact details. But needless to say there was enough power in Ragnarok with one person becoming Ragnarok to kill Orphan.

However, what actually happened was two people became Ragnarok, two l'Cie who at this point were significantly stronger than the last time it all happened. So the Ragnarok that was created this time around was at the very least twice as strong, but I suspect the power increase was significantly more than just being twice. As a result of that jump in strength Ragnarok gained probably what would be considered near god-like powers.

So as a final gift to their friends that survived, they gave them back their life and chances to live a normal life. So making use of Ragnarok's god-like powers, Fang and Vanille pulled them all out of crystal sleep as their last act. It was their gift to them after saving the world.

Is it a little Deux Ex? Probably so, but that is the way that I saw it happening. I find it quite unlikely that the Goddess decided to step down and grant the party a life after everything that happened because she felt sorry for them.

As for civilization surviving. During Fang and Vanille's time they were able to make a living. I suspect most of the monsters that roam Pulse now were available back then as well. It was pretty clear that there used to be some great civilizations on Pulse before the fal'Cie screwed everything. So you just find the right place to build a home and I think civilization will survive.

[Zargabaath]

But after the ending I came to his rationale. Ragnarok that was trying to be created by the fal'Cie Bart (something something long) was supposed to be only one person. He only needed one to do it, Ragnarok had that power. Unfortunately, something in Fang weakened or the Goddess stepped in centuries ago before it could be finished, I forget the exact details. But needless to say there was enough power in Ragnarok with one person becoming Ragnarok to kill Orphan.

Well from what Orphan/Bart says Fang was a broken L'Cie and from that she could never become Ragnarok. Vanille alone was, supposedly, the one who could become Ragnarok that could destroy Cocoon/Orphan. Etro also played a part in Fang and Vanille's crystalization by taking pity on them turning them to crystal...

Ragnarok took wing; made to smite Cocoon, and thereby deliver us our
everlasting peace. But Her Providence would not let it be.

The Goddess pitied the fools who so blindly bowed to Lindzei’s will, and so She
robbed Ragnarok of power, putting the l’Cie to an early crystal sleep, Focus
yet incomplete.

-Sermons of the seeress Paddra Nsu-Yeul (The Heavenly Deceit Analect IV)

From this we do learn that gods can crystalize L'Cie so if it was a god who branded the Lightning, Snow, Hope, & Sazh it could've turned them into crystal for completing their focus which may have been to save Cocoon from the beginning (I'll get into that soon). At the same time couldn't the god release them from their crystalization; as to why the god would crystalize them then free them is unclear but it is plausible. I've said before that the dream the party had of their focus at the end of chapter 2 happens when Fang and Vanille transform into Ragnarok and save Cocoon. In the dream though it is a very short version of what happens in the end so the party could have mistaken it for destroying Cocoon; this would have fooled Barthandelus as well. I would like to know how Barthandelus would've known, I theorized that the god would have leaked the dream to the Fal'Cie.

However, what actually happened was two people became Ragnarok, two l'Cie who at this point were significantly stronger than the last time it all happened. So the Ragnarok that was created this time around was at the very least twice as strong, but I suspect the power increase was significantly more than just being twice. As a result of that jump in strength Ragnarok gained probably what would be considered near god-like powers.

That's if the power of Ragnarok increases with how many users it takes to become it which is theoretical. It would have been nice if they divulged that information as I said in my previous post on the nature/intricacies of Ragnarok. If Fang and Vanille had a theory from some myth back in their day about Ragnarok that involves more than one person and the increase in power relative to how many fused that would have been cool, but we got nothing or nothing much.

So as a final gift to their friends that survived, they gave them back their life and chances to live a normal life. So making use of Ragnarok's god-like powers, Fang and Vanille pulled them all out of crystal sleep as their last act. It was their gift to them after saving the world.

Is it a little Deux Ex? Probably so, but that is the way that I saw it happening. I find it quite unlikely that the Goddess decided to step down and grant the party a life after everything that happened because she felt sorry for them.

Well Etro took pity on Fang and Vanille so it wouldn't be farfetched to think she would reward Lightning, Snow, Hope, and Sazh with their normal lives - it could have been the god or entity that branded them in the first place as I truly believe it wasn't Anima. As I said multiple times I would have liked an explanation of Ragnarok's powers as to give the player a sense. Ragnarok was a creature of destruction why would it have that type of power? I would also like to know what Ragnarok is and how it came to be? The game doesn't go into that.

As for civilization surviving. During Fang and Vanille's time they were able to make a living. I suspect most of the monsters that roam Pulse now were available back then as well. It was pretty clear that there used to be some great civilizations on Pulse before the fal'Cie screwed everything. So you just find the right place to build a home and I think civilization will survive.

There are a few differences that I find noteworthy. They had some L'Cie to help them on occasion plus their advance technology. There will probably be no more L'Cie and there are none at that time. The advance technology of Cocoon was powered by the Cocoon Fal'Cie which have very little power making that tech useless. As I've said their military is pathetic. And how would they build a home when the Fal'Cie did everything for the people of Cocoon. They were pets, every need pampered by the Fal'Cie - do Cocoon citizens know how to build a city. Perhaps simple huts but Long Gui's can stomp on them. You know how hard it would be to move all those people, assuming that millions survived, if not tens or hundreds of thousands. Their would be death and probably a lot because they don't have survival skills and a great defense force to protect them.