Intellectual Discussion, and what to do about it

[LocoColt04]

A recent thread asking for old topics to be archived has sparked some conversation regarding what to do with the ID forum itself. This is not the first time that conversation has arisen.

Thus, I offer some options to public opinion, as can be seen above. This poll will run for 14 days, and the results will be reviewed by the staff and an official decision will be made (which may not necessarily align with the true majority vote; see: politics).

Options above will be further explained below, so please read the details before submitting your vote.


How should the Intellectual Discussion forum change, if at all?

1. Leave the forum as it is, but add another moderator to help monitor discussions -- or remove existing moderators to allow the Supermoderator and Administrator teams to receive post reports.
2. Change the forum to host only political discussions (as that's what most of the threads with any weight to them are anyway), and dissolve the rest of the conversations back into General Chat.
3. Dissolve Intellectual Discussion altogether, which really does not need an explanation.

[Halie]

I think maybe there could be another mod added who is impartial. And by that I mean somebody who doesn't post there very much but is still knowledgeable on the rules and how the ID forum works. The reasoning for this is because I think if you added another mod there who does tend to post there a lot and gets involved in these discussions then they may become biased in their judgement, or it could alter their posts a little. Whereas if you put somebody there who doesn't tend to post there a lot they would keep it more neutral. They'd sort of act as an appropriate adult type of person. If that makes any sense, hopefully it does.

[LocoColt04]

Oh yeah, that would definitely have to be the case if we went about adding a moderator. Impartiality would be key to the position there given the nature of the conversations.

We need a person who has no opinion about anything ever.

Where's our robot?

[Alpha]

1) It needs more moderation. If anyone breaks Jesus' golden rule of 'don't hate the player, hate the game (argument)', they need to be reprinanded. This has been suggested continuously for at least three years. No one wants to participate when arguments degenerate into personal spats.

2) Why do we have ID? Supposedly, it is a place where posts have a little more meat to them. More conditioned responses, aimed at convincing people. If it were to be interjected with image macros and penis jokes, then this becomes difficult. We still have a reason for ID; don't remove it.

3) To the extent that a lot of the threads are political: a) So what? It's always a changing landscape, where the fates of real people are determined. Part of being a citizen is to be at least a little involved in the democratic discussion. Video game nerds have valid opinions too. b) If you don't like the makeup of threads in there, make your own. If you don't want to make one yourself but have an idea, I have a stickied thread in ID that is explicitly for topic idea brainstorming.

Also, che is a robot. I know he doesn't like participating in ID, but I also know he is a guy who puts a lot of weight on critical thought, neutrality and civil discussion.

[Yoko]

Don't make it political. No one would post there. There are a lot more intellectual things to talk about than just political topics.

We need another mod in there to clean things up/maintain what has and wil happen in there. Lately, it's been a little lacking in Moderation (Sorry Meier...)

[Michael Swayne]

I think that another moderator in ID would be a good thing. Not because I think Meier is incompetent; but because with the surge in threads/posts in the ID forum recently, it would help lift the burden. The thing to remember is that Meier has a life just like the rest of us. And possibly, life has hit him a bit hard lately. I know that if I had some real life stuff going on, TFF post reports would not be high on my list of priorities. Having another moderator for ID would give a higher chance of something being done, and then we wouldn't be having conversations like this every so often.

Quite possibly, this whole deal could lead to a revamp of the entire forum. And bring attention to the other high-traffic areas of TFF. I believe that some areas could use a moderator. Places like FFVII and FFX/X-2 will have high activity for years to come.

Anyway, it ultimately comes down to what Meier thinks about the results at the review. Since this concerns him directly, his opinion will outweigh this polls's and what anyone has to say. If he says he can do it on his own, then I trust that he can.

That's all I have to say.

[Rowan]

Dont make it politics only, it would only make ID more dead than what it is. There are FAR more things to talk about than whats going in the white house. Why would you delete it? Its one of the best places on the forum.

EDIT:

If you are looking for another person to moderate it, Then I cant think of anyone better than Alpha. I would move that Alpha be moderator of ID.

[Joxsjua]

I haven't been here long so I have no worth to have a vote in the say but here's a wild idea:
make politics and ID two separate topics.

this way you can have the sheeple repeat what they saw on the news and flex their arms and the rest of the people can actually have somewhere to go to maybe learn something without being ostracized.
Take what I say with a grain of salt I'm not the best at expressing my ideals in script.
thanks for this opportunity

[Rocky]

I think that ID is fine for now but needs some extra mod help, perferably someone who can keep the individuals and less so the topics on the straight and narrow. Someone that and work behind the scenes and not disturb the topic, as they tend to get side tracked even after warnings are issued in topic.

I know the mods are usually quiet and dont take to outside opinion on who shouldbe one, but Id volunteer my services if requested. Just throwing it out there!

[Meier Link]

Wow this still comes down to the whole if I mod hard people bitch if I get lax because the forum is dead and let some things slide the forum needs more mods. That section of the forum is not busy enough to need two mods.

Seeing the ff forums aren't that active can we change them into one lump forum?

As always if you find somthing wrong in ID report it. All post reports are reviewd just because some idividuals don't like the responceor don't see it doesn't mean it hasn't been handled.

Might as well merge gen chat and humor while we are at it because all gen chat has been is a joke.no ones bitching about that.

It comes down to forum activity. ID is for lack of a better word dead. So yes if meaning being lax. Improves that forums activity not just for that forum but the better activity of a forum that gets less then 100 posts a day then yes I am ging to be a little more lax.

With that said, leave the forum as it is. I am out of this convo, said my peace.

[Alpha]

I didn't mean to insinuate that you aren't doing your job, Meier.

I just think that there's a lot of borderline rule breaking in ID. I hesitate reporting any of it for three reasons:
A) If I'm involved in the conversation, it's like 'giving up' to report a post from the person/people you're arguing with.
B) Getting tetchy and making personal calls isn't necessarily against the rules.*
C) Do I report someone who is half on- and half off-topic?

* It's this kind of thing that needs better moderation. No one will participate if they get their head bitten off for doing so. However much of that doesn't warrant the report button, which I think I've only used like twice across the entire forum in three years.

[Joxsjua]

intellectual and politics deserve separate threads
you're always going to meet that "with ur ching chang and your kung fu. I can't understand you; white power!" concept is dead.

[Martin]

I'm pretty sure what I said has been taken way out of context. Literally all I meant was have some of the much earlier threads archived because people are struggling for new topics in there. I wasn't questioning whether or not there should be an ID forum, nor was I complaining about moderation. All it needed was a purge of the earlier threads so that older discussions could be brought up without the need to look if that idea had been brought up earlier that's all? And within that there's a lot of political-based threads in there - that's just a fact, I'm not trying to create a contentious point with that.

As far as establishing a new moderator, you could have a poll for that too. I'd nominate myself but I'm apparently not very biased, aha.

[LocoColt04]

Meier, when I mentioned "change the way it's moderated" I didn't necessarily mean that a new mod HAS to be added, or that you HAD to be removed. Since it's obviously the leading choice amongst members right now, maybe it could be as simple as reworking the rules of that forum, actually enforcing those rules,* pushing threads that don't belong back into GC, and maybe even moving some of the GC threads into ID. Obviously the activity doesn't really warrant a second person, and you do a great job of remaining neutral with regards to the topics and such.



* I still don't think we need a "length of post" rule, but at least some sort of "complete thought with explanation" clause. I know loaf is a prime example of someone who can get his entire thought out and typically well-spoken in only two or three sentences. And then, the posts where someone asks someone else a yes-or-no question, it would be silly to assume that the person would have to respond with another two paragraphs, when it could be stated in two sentences.

[Order]

Leave the forum the way it is, let the discussions become heated. Fundamental moral discussions are inherently a tense. That's why we like them, right?
The only action I would take is to drop the hammer on those who send hatemail via PM.

For those who don't like a heated debate, you don't have to keep reading ID threads.

[Meier Link]

The current minimum post requirement is just a single paragraph. Not a hard standard to meet if you ask me.

[LocoColt04]

Who defines what a paragraph could be? What if my entire sentiment could be incredibly well-stated in a singular sentence with multiple clauses?

What if someone responded to my post, complete with their own thoughts and opinions, but then asked me a question that required nothing more than a "yes, that's what I was implying" type of response?

It could use a tweak if nothing else.

[OceanEyes28]

Meier, I think you need to look at this another way... you seem to be taking it as an attack against you. Everyone thinks you do a good job.

However, you've got a lot on your plate these days. It happens. You may not think ID has enough activity to warrant another moderator, but let's be honest, neither does General Chat. I could have kept modding GC all my myself. But I wanted someone else on board to help me when I had stuff going on or to back me up (or hey, tell me to cool off) when I made a decision. I haven't needed someone else on GC for years. But I, and everyone else, want you on that forum.

Having someone else on ID with you does not mean you're doing a bad job. I'm not saying someone else has to be, but I do think you should at least think about it.

[LocoColt04]

Also Meier, look at it this way as well - nobody is saying you aren't responding to post reports. But, given the nature of the way that particular forum works... do you honestly read through every single post in every thread there on a regular basis? I know I sure don't. And I don't do that for the forums my name is still on either. A second set of eyes, perhaps one not opposed to reading through everything wouldn't be such a bad thing.

Even so, assuming that option ends up winning the poll by the end of the time limit, it's something we'll take into the office to discuss. Please untwist your panties. :3

[Martin]

Leave the forum the way it is, let the discussions become heated. Fundamental moral discussions are inherently a tense. That's why we like them, right?
The only action I would take is to drop the hammer on those who send hatemail via PM.

For those who don't like a heated debate, you don't have to keep reading ID threads.

Yeah whoever wrote those vicious PM's deserves a good slap because it's just not on. I like a heated debate as much as the next man but as long as it remains civil. Since I've rejoined I've noticed yourself taking the mantle and I'm enjoying our little tussles. Exactly what I wanted ID to be like so kudos to you.

Meier, I think you need to look at this another way... you seem to be taking it as an attack against you. Everyone thinks you do a good job.

However, you've got a lot on your plate these days. It happens. You may not think ID has enough activity to warrant another moderator, but let's be honest, neither does General Chat. I could have kept modding GC all my myself. But I wanted someone else on board to help me when I had stuff going on or to back me up (or hey, tell me to cool off) when I made a decision. I haven't needed someone else on GC for years. But I, and everyone else, want you on that forum.

Having someone else on ID with you does not mean you're doing a bad job. I'm not saying someone else has to be, but I do think you should at least think about it.

This was exactly what I was getting at. I think Meier does a terrific job, I do. All I really wanted was a chance to get some more activity in a scarcely used part of the forum which given some impetus could really get moving again. Archive and a backup mod isn't life-threatening.

[Pete]

I like it the way it is. My main problem with TFF in general, as it has been for years now, is that there are too many subcategories for a site that really isn't pulling in the posts like it used to. If you make a political forum as a subset, you'll just have another two sections that don't really get a whole lot of attention.

It's the same thing as my gripe with word games. If gen chat is struggling like it does, combine them and only allow more intelligent games to be played.

As for Meier's modding, I have no problems with it. He's been rocking it out for years without any real issues. If it's really necessary to have a secondary mod there, I'd have to go Alpha, but I think it's on lockdown.

[Martin]

I'm wasn't asking for an overhaul of ID - more just get rid of some older threads that you'd only be necroposting in and then those thread ideas could be re-used with some fresh input from newer members. It feels like what I was asking for has been twisted into some kind of radical change across the boards and believe me, if I thought it would have caused this kind of fuss I wouldn't have been bothered.

But Pete you have a valid point. There's far too much content on here for a forum that has 600 or so active members these days. Keep the gaming ones as they are I suppose, and merge the chat ones.

The whole issue is boiling down to site traffic and I don't know how to go about increase that.

I never criticised Meier or the way he goes about it. He's been down the line and I think he does a great job. I was only trying to suggest giving him a hand.

[LocoColt04]

Pete, I'm going to take your point into another topic. We'll have an open discussion before we even think about polls or decisions or anything like that. Look out for that in about half an hour after I get settled in and start actually making points.

[Martin]

Pete, I'm going to take your point into another topic. We'll have an open discussion before we even think about polls or decisions or anything like that. Look out for that in about half an hour after I get settled in and start actually making points.

An open discussion on the forums or in the office? Just wondering because I think it should be a public debate to be brutal.

[Mystyrion]

I don't ever really post in the ID forum.
Mainly because I don't have the knowledge for most of the topics in there.

But I do really enjoy reading the discussions in there. So my vote goes for keeping it as it is.

[Dranzer]

I think I've posted in the ID maybe once or twice, but I'd still like to throw in my two cents that it should be left as is, but another moderator might not hurt. I definitely don't think it would be a good idea to make it strictly political and then have all other conversations flow into the GC. The GC (as I understand it) is general discussion about whatever the hell someone wants to discuss, the ID implies that the topics are often heavy/controversial (and sometimes even personal) and discussion can become heated pretty easily. Yeah, another moderator might not hurt.

Oh, and I agree with Rowan, Alpha's definitely a good choice for a mod of the ID. He's wise enough to participate when he wants to, yet remain unbiased if an issue were to arise that needed resolving. IMHO anyways.

Yeah, my two cents.

[SOLDIER #819]

Just nuke ID and make Meier a supermod. TFF doesn't have enough activity to warrant sectioning stuff off like that anymore; it's taking up space on the index. No amount of moderation will change that. The one paragraph minimum (which != smarter posts) is almost pointless given our regulars' posting habits. They make one paragraph posts about soda, so I think it'll be alright.

Edit - Looooccooooo:

It might sound nice having a "playful" forum and a "serious" forum, but I guarantee that it throttles activity more than it helps. People have been expressing for a long time now that ID feels too inaccessible because of how "smart" it comes off as. They just end up avoiding it... like how some people avoid GC because it looks like 4chan (is a "fun" forum), and how people avoid Word Games because it looks like TFF from 2000. Without those labels, you won't scare off people.

It'd be nice to have more than the same 5 people giving their take on an "ID" subject.

[Martin]

I think I've posted in the ID maybe once or twice, but I'd still like to throw in my two cents that it should be left as is, but another moderator might not hurt. I definitely don't think it would be a good idea to make it strictly political and then have all other conversations flow into the GC. The GC (as I understand it) is general discussion about whatever the hell someone wants to discuss, the ID implies that the topics are often heavy/controversial (and sometimes even personal) and discussion can become heated pretty easily. Yeah, another moderator might not hurt.

Oh, and I agree with Rowan, Alpha's definitely a good choice for a mod of the ID. He's wise enough to participate when he wants to, yet remain unbiased if an issue were to arise that needed resolving. IMHO anyways.

Yeah, my two cents.

You raise an interesting point - I don't think there's much call for a forum merger because they are fundamentally different. So yeah, keeping them separate seems to the agreed way forward.

Just a quick question, has anyone asked Alpha if he wants to, haha? I think he'd do well myself but I know he has a lot on irl as he told me the other day. And he might not even want to! He would be a good choice though and I enjoy talking to him on here. As far as modding goes that should be a different discussion and maybe not on this thread. It might look like it's undermining Meier, and that's not right. I used to want to mod on there but I'm not sure I'd want to anymore.. - I've only just come back on so I don't really seem dependable and I doubt I'd be a popular choice regardless

It'd be nice to have more than the same 5 people giving their take on an "ID" subject.

I agree. It's what I wanted.

[LocoColt04]

@S:

In my other thread, I propose the idea of renaming "Intellectual Discussion" to something a little more appropriate and less condescending.

The idea behind ID is to have a forum where thorough posts about serious subjects are made, and let's be honest - there is still a place for that to exist without it having to get thrown into General Chat and have some tag in the thread title to specify that it's a serious discussion.

I suggested "Topical Debates" as a potential replacement, but the "debate" word may not truly satisfy the nature of every thread in the forum. It's something else we can work on, but I agree with the idea that it could use a little refresher to pull the "holier-than-thou" out of the title. That's something which can be discussed in the other thread, though.

[Alpha]

Just a quick question, has anyone asked Alpha if he wants to, haha?

I would, yep. I read all the posts, even if I don't post. I generally have a lot of uni work, but it's all at a computer and I almost always have the forum open in my browser. My issue might be time zone more than anything. About now is the only time I seem to match forum activity. Later on tonight I think it's like early morning in the states. So I seem to 'find' a lot of posts all at once, but am not there as they are made.

[Not an indication that I think I'm the best for it or anything. But if people want me to, then I will.]

EDIT: I'll make another post in the other thread tonight, but I also think the label 'Intellectual Discussion' is condescending.