Why Do Illegal Immigrants sound like Troublemaking High School Students?

[Cain Highwind]

What? Cain making a topic in ID, I think this is a first!

Anyway, first I want to state a disclaimer that this topic in no way endorses racism of any kind. I'm certainly not racist, but I do have a beef with Mexicans (any any other Nationality, but Mexican's are the worst offender) who think they can just waltz into the US and leech off our government really just piss me off.

I know there are some people that are legit and want to make an honest living, and they work hard for it. I know my Mom moving to New Zealand was no simple task, but she persevered and embraced the culture. Maybe I just respect hard work and have a huge disdain for "line-cutters"

I was reading an article in the paper the other day talking about various "checkpoints" set up throughout Southern California to get people who are unlicensed or intoxicated off the road but "advocates of illegal immigration" have been taking pride in warning people of these checkpoints holding up signs telling people to turn back.

It just made me angry, because reading about the "cheap tricks" to avoid getting in trouble for something THEY SHOULDN'T BE DOING IN THE FIRST PLACE reminds me of what I'd see in High School. And it just infuriates me that whenever we try to do something about it, these "advocates" come in and whine how we're being oh so mean to these POOR LITTLE PEOPLE.

I'm posting here because I'm really curious if I'm the only one that's just completely flabbergasted by this way of thinking. Going back to my High School days. I was in a class for ROP Printing. Teacher was a really great guy, he knew that we were all pretty tired being at the end of the day, he knew a lot of us don't want more textbook grinding, so he had more of a hands-on teaching approach with just a couple pages of reading (about as much reading as an ID topic here) and an easy "fill in the blanks" review worksheet. It was incredibly easy-going for anyone who was in the least bit serious. This was by no means anything like a "major subject" class

But there was a good third of the class who were dropped into the class because they had nothing better to join and wanted to do nothing but socialize and leave class and any sort of work was "unfair" Yeah unfair and some kind of crime against them.

So yeah, that what I think of whenever I hear about these "advocates" who complain whenever we try to crack down on these guys.

Now, I should address my thoughts on the controversial new law in Arizona. For those who don't know, it's a law that allows police and state authorities to make inquiries on someone's citizenship or arrest them.

I admit, that I think this law goes too far. It's no different than if I were to see a teen wearing a hooded sweatshirt going through the store I work at demand he empty his pockets and search him. But reading this article the other day, makes me wonder, I'd love to know what these advocates for illegal immigration would be considered fair.

So yeah, I'm just wondering if there are actually people here that can offer a different viewpoint. Am I just some crazy, closet-racist? Because this issue drives me up the wall.

[Sasquatch]

The United States of America allows more legal immigrants every year than every other nation in the world combined. Think about that.

We have immigrants from all over the world that look to better their life in America. Most of them do it legally -- and hey, more power to 'em, I'd help if I could. But we have some -- mostly from Mexico (and Central America, through Mexico) that don't want to play by the rules.

What do higher crime rates, higher teen pregnancy rates, lower literacy rates, higher drug use rates, and higher poverty rates have in common? They're all shared by illegal immigrants. This isn't because they can't partake of the same government benefits as legal citizens, it is because they are the types of people who don't care to succeed or obey laws. If they did, they wouldn't be in this country illegally.

And now Arizona passes a law that lets police stop suspected illegal immigrants and check them -- and people are bitching about it? Weave between lanes while driving at 2:00 or 2:30 in the morning, and you'll be stopped and checked for sobriety. Is that a problem? Walk into a courthouse with a bulge in your jacket -- or a holster attached to your belt -- and you'll be stopped to check if you actually do have a gun. Is that a problem?

Of course there will be "profiling". There always is. Do you know why? BECAUSE IT WORKS. If there's a mugging in a subway tunnel, the police aren't going to focus much on the 40-year-old woman in the business suit, they're going to look at the 16-year-old in the hooded sweatshirt and baggy jeans. Because ninety-nine times out of one hundred, it's the one in the hooded sweatshirt and baggy jeans. 99/100 times, the terrorist is the Arab Muslim, not the eighty-year-old woman with knitting needles. 99/100 times, the computer hacker is some twenty-year-old kid with a good computer, not a middle-aged guy with a family and full-time job. Do we want the police to look at every suspect equally, or do we want them to focus on the most obvious suspects?

Two simple rules I ask for from immigrants. First, learn English. If you don't want to learn it, at least accept that the rest of the country doesn't have to learn your language. Second, obey the law. That's simple -- pay taxes, work, go to school, don't do stupid things. And illegals have already screwed up one of those rules.

[sayian]

Of course there will be "profiling". There always is. Do you know why? BECAUSE IT WORKS.

Agreed.. always will be..<---- said the black dude thats who gets stopped by the po pos constantly wrather im walking driving or already parked cleaning out my car.. but whats interesting is that i dont totally 100% disagree with this.. countless number of crimes are solved by profiling... i jus do my part by simply not being suspect if i look like one or not. sometimes (and this may be wierd) i like to show people who i am and see their reaction of how nice, well mannered, and respectful i am...

a few months ago the cops came to my house looking for some1 and i let them in and had to show them my id and pictured and what not jus to prove i was ME.. this was about 2am and they were there for about an hour..... well last week i seen that same cop at the gymn playing basketball(my sport) off duty of course.. but he saw me and i was coaching a good friend of mine's son teaching him fundamentals of basketball... that cop came and introduced himself and shook my hand... i can tell that he was surprised that there were a young black man actually doing something good.
profiling is safe, and easy, and cheap.. and chances are, u jus might be right ... it sux just as much for the person who was proven wrong by doing it than for the person bein profiled though...lol

[che]

Of course there will be "profiling". There always is. Do you know why? BECAUSE IT WORKS.

Agreed.. always will be..<---- said the black dude thats who gets stopped by the po pos constantly wrather im walking driving or already parked cleaning out my car.. but whats interesting is that i dont totally 100% disagree with this.. countless number of crimes are solved by profiling... i jus do my part by simply not being suspect if i look like one or not. sometimes (and this may be wierd) i like to show people who i am and see their reaction of how nice, well mannered, and respectful i am...

a few months ago the cops came to my house looking for some1 and i let them in and had to show them my id and pictured and what not jus to prove i was ME.. this was about 2am and they were there for about an hour..... well last week i seen that same cop at the gymn playing basketball(my sport) off duty of course.. but he saw me and i was coaching a good friend of mine's son teaching him fundamentals of basketball... that cop came and introduced himself and shook my hand... i can tell that he was surprised that there were a young black man actually doing something good.
profiling is safe, and easy, and cheap.. and chances are, u jus might be right ... it sux just as much for the person who was proven wrong by doing it than for the person bein profiled though...lol

No, that's a bunch of ****ing horseshit. The fact that you're so cool about it makes me appalled. Imagine them doing this to white people! There would be a lawsuit, it might be on the news, etc!

[T.G. Oskar]

Well, for starters...not all "advocates for illegal immigration" actually support illegal immigration. They support an immigration reform, in which some of the current vaults for legal immigration are reduced or eliminated.

This is as follows: to become a legal immigrant, you need to get a visa of some sort. Be it a worker's visa (so that you may legally work in the US), a student's visa (so you may study in the US), and other kinds. Usually, that means hours of effort and going to the embassy in hopes that you gain one of those visas. Naturally, that implies getting a lot of money. Not sure if that also implies getting a lawyer; I wouldn't know, since I haven't applied for a visa to travel to Asia or Europe (as of yet; depending on how things go, I might have to apply for a visa for somewhere rather than the US. No offense.)

Now, people that are poor and at most illiterate/barely literate don't seem to understand how that works, and find the legal methods too much of a hassle. Now, that doesn't automatically mean they're lazy; it means they see it way too complicated, and some even fear that they might get imprisoned. Not to mention, the looming effects of bureaucracy. Mostly, the ones that *can* apply for a visa are usually people that understand the hurdles and work to pass them. But a good deal of people that cross the borders are farmers and people of small towns. It also means that some criminals cross the borders as well, but that thing happens at every point where immigration (and emigration) happens.

So, what's their hopes? Some try to cross the border on their own: a risk, since the desert (for what I've seen on Hispanic television) is a real, real hassle. Others try their way through coyotes, which are really people that take advantage of the people and ask them insane amounts of money for roughly the same chance of striking it on their own, except that they supposedly know the pathways and have methods to hide illegal immigrants. Granted; none of the ways are exactly (or entirely) legal, but for small-town people (and criminals, unfortunately), it's their "only" choice. I place it on quotation marks since there's another choice, but they cannot seem to aspire to that choice.

In the end, those who *do* cross the border have three outcomes: they are deported (the usual choice), they get to work on places like agriculture, clothing or in the rare cases somewhere better (the other usual choice), or die in the desert/by coyotes/etc. (the unfortunate choice). The honest people who cross the border to work and eventually become citizens (which may know very well that they have violated a law, but they refuse to care as their other chance would be far worse) will usually get loads of work in order to make amends. The criminals might not start as criminals, but the influence of Central American "maras" gangs usually lures them into becoming criminals. And then, there's the people who might have an eye to the welfare benefits and seek them.

This brief summary works to indicate the following: those who advocate for an immigration reform do so because they want to stop border incursions (or at least, reduce them as they can allow people a much easier, safer, and specifically legal way to enter the country), not all who advocate for an immigration reform are supportive of people that enter the country's borders for anything else other than seeking work and perhaps education (and seek ways to become legal citizens, to boot), that (even if only a brief mention) this happens with any kind of immigrant (thus, it's not just "Mexicans" or Central Americans to be a bit more precise), and that it's not as easy as it seems to cross the border. Some of the honest people (or the people that seek to be honest despite knowing they're breaking a law out of desperation, not outright criminals) actually get cheated out of their few possessions just to get to the other side. Finally, it also implies that this is something that requires listening to all sides.

Oh, it also implies the people who want to take advantage of the United States usually work together in order to cause confusion. And that racist people also might create some confusion. So don't see this as "immigrants vs. US", but rather as a set of several sides which usually take one position or the other: there are former immigrants and now-legal citizens of the US who actually oppose crossing the border, there are immigrants who wish for an immigration reform but that disapprove of the side of their community which gives them a bad reputation, there's people who hide between the movements to support legal immigration but that only desire welfare benefits, not seeking opportunities to work and the like, and so on.

I have to speak in a different way, mostly from where I live, since it's the best parallel that I can work with (later I'll explain why I oppose the Arizona law). In Puerto Rico, which is a non-incorporated U.S. territory, there's several cases of illegal immigration happening virtually every day. The Coast Guard, along with the Dept. of Homeland Security, patrol a small channel west of the island to seek for Dominican immigrants. The event is an eerie parallel, since it deals with most of the things that happens in the Mexico-US border. First, not all immigrants are actually Dominicans: there are also Haitians, Cubans and even Chinese (no, I kid you not). Instead of a desert, you have a relatively long strip of water. The boats they use are cheaply made, and at any moment people can get stranded in the channel, which is not calm and quiet most of the time; not to mention, these people travel that channel pretty much without any kind of guidance (sometimes, they rely only on their memory).

When those immigrants do cross into island shore (and thus, into U.S. territory), they usually do one of the following. Some are caught, and thus deported back into the Dominican Republic. Others manage to evade the authorities, seek some place to live, and get into menial work to get enough money to start their naturalization processes. The big bulk (and I mean a big bulk) evade the authorities, get in contact with other people that managed to cross, seek their green cards and then seek pretty much every single welfare benefit, not to mention using their houses as refuges for both the people that want to work and the people that don't. And also, getting enough money to start their own business.

Now, the group of people that are undesirable (don't seek to work or study, only seek welfare benefits and actually know the tricks to get them better than a local, and may even engage in criminal activity) usually tend to bully the group of people who actually seek to work and progress in U.S. territory, and displace the local people of most poor locales in the capital city. When there's any attempt to get them under control, they start playing the "we came here to work and study and whatnot!" card, along with the people who actually come here to work and study and whatnot. Eventually, the people who seek to work and study for real get deported, while these people who don't want to usually get out unscathed.

Now, does a law like that in Arizona would work to weed out these people? Nope, and instead it weeds out the honest people, the ones that go to the United States to work for their families. Does that mean that things should remain as-is? Certainly not, since doing nothing is bad; however, doing something wrong is worse than doing nothing. How to solve that situation? Well, I can't give you the answer but one thing is for certain: if you want to weed out the undesirables (and I don't mean everybody, just the criminals and those who don't come here to work and study), you need to be smarter than them. Bait them, perhaps, but beware to prevent getting the honest people to work out. And that's why it doesn't work: because it's dependent on a set of factors working correctly in order to work appropriately, and because the design of the law is done with a specific goal in mind. It depends on the law officers to prevent racial profiling, for once (it won't work appropriately if all of a sudden you find that only Central-American immigrants, specifically immigrants coming from specific regions, are asked for their papers while others who might have no papers but that don't look like Central Americans aren't).

The law that was proposed just simply doesn't weed the undesirable people in the correct way. Think of it as trying to get...vermin out of your house (yes, a terrible analogy, but bear with me, it doesn't sound as bad as it looks since the people who really wish to work and study might be better compared to adopted stray pets). You can ID them, you can try to get them out with poison and traps, but as long as you don't do some cleaning and get what they want out of their hands, they'll hide in your home, keep multiplying and keep pestering. And worse; they'll hide out in places they know you won't be looking (in the case of these people, they'll hide out in-between the honest, hard-working people and bully them into supporting them).

Think about it in your analogy, Cain, as "these people think that work is too hard, but they'll take refuge in the people who actually believe that work is too hard". Those are your "advocates"; they blend in with the honest, legalized people who seek to make a real immigration reform, lull them into believing they are being persecuted, and gain their support even if in the end they aren't being honest about themselves. Not all advocates for an immigration reform *want* to protect those who don't cross the border with the idea of honest progress. I wouldn't say anything about being a "closet racist", but perhaps it's better that you realize there are people that use their wits to take advantage of the honest. On both sides; both on the pro-immigration side and on the anti-immigration side.

[Zargabaath]

I like how hispanics who are protesting the Arizona law and any other law that would possibly be detrimental to illegal immigrants, whom are a vast majority of hispanic origin, complain that the law are supposed action is racist towards hispanics. These people just don't get the idea, that the those in America don't have a problem with hispanics but with illegal immigrants who so happen to be usually of hispanic origin; a stereotype it may be but it is based upon fact. The hispanics who are protesting try to shift the attention from illegal immigrants to racism because they know what they are fighting for - illegal immigrants - is wrong. Once a person has crossed the border, illegaly, they have broken the law of the U.S. and are criminals; these protestors are trying to help out these criminals - accomplises it could be seen as.

Now with their attempt to turn this debate into racism against hispanics, I say if they love their heritage and culture so much, go back to your country. Oh wait, you don't want to because it is a hell hole compared to the US. Mexico departs any illegal they catch coming in from their southern border; other countries if a traveler doesn't have idea will be held in custody till they can be identified. But in America this can't be allowed because it is violating their human rights. In regards to the Arizona law, it is not such a big deal to citizens or legal immigrants of the US. By federal law legal immigrants are required to carry their green-card at all times and for citizens of the US they are almost always required to carry their identification for one or more purposes: driving, credit card, check, purchase of alcohol or cigarettes, etc. If a cop were to stop a hispanic citizen of the US in Arizona for possibly being an illegal immigrant because most illegals in the US are of hispanic origin and most illegals in Arizona are hispanic would it be such a heinous act for them to just simply pull out their id, the cop to look at it, and then say they can go on their way?

The border does not to be sealed or walled with more troops patrolling any who try to get past that via climbing over or tunneling which could be seen as the illegal immigrants invading this country. Second, the federal law needs to be enforced, not reformed; the government should be looking for illegals and be shipping them off back to their country. I don't have a problem with hispanics or legal immigrants, most of my ancestors came to America legally. I do have a problem with illegal immirgrants whom take away resources from Americans. I do have a problem with illegal immigrants comitting crimes in the US and politicians not wanting to tackle the issue because it would make hispanics angry, though it is not a hispanic problem but an illegal immigrant problem.

[Furore]

+1 Sasquatch's post.

While I think ethnic diversity is a good thing, entering a country illegally certainly isn't and it's not just one party who suffers from it. The country they invade might suffer in the ways Sasquatch mentioned and legitimate legal migrants might be effected negatively (especially if their ethnicity becomes associated with society's problems).

The grass might be greener on the other side, but it wouldn't kill them to look into migrating the proper way. If they're disqualified from migrating the proper way there would probably be a reason why and most would have brought it on themselves.

[SOLDIER #819]

In a high school setting the troublemakers are often misunderstood and come from poor or broken families. Then we have majority who look down on them without even attempting to glimpse at their circumstances. Except this isn't high school, and they're probably jumping the border out of necessity lest they starve or whatever horrible circumstance is relevant to their situation. Unless we're assuming that all countries are as well-off as America and that they're just border hopping because they like going on road trips and splitting/uprooting their families for kicks. Ohoho, those silly latinos and their issues of life and death.

Not that they're saints. I myself live in a pretty low-end area populated by mostly latinos, many of which are illegal. Recently our car got rear-ended and the guy didn't have a license, much less insurance. What's more is that people in the surrounding area actually came to his defense, no doubt because my dad is white. They claimed he was at fault and a racist. Great.

But the guy himself wasn't bad and wasn't wishing misfortune on anyone. Life just isn't fair or simple and these are the results of that. Some of those who cross over may be dangerous, no doubt, but I think most are just trying to live the only way they know how. If you want to talk pragmatism and politics, yeah, lock 'em out! It may or may not keep it safer, it may or may not give us more jobs. But most people we do keep out are just desperate.

Oh well, they'd just cause trouble anyway!

[Sasquatch]

In a high school setting the troublemakers are often misunderstood and come from poor or broken families. Then we have majority who look down on them without even attempting to glimpse at their circumstances.

I came from a broken and poor family and I wasn't a troublemaker in high school. Please, don't say that people can't help but be dumbasses because of their bad situations. People "look down" on them not because of their poor circumstances, but because the little bastards can't act like decent human beings.

Except this isn't high school, and they're probably jumping the border out of necessity lest they starve or whatever horrible circumstance is relevant to their situation.

Congratulations to them -- do it legally. There are plenty of ways to get into the country legally. I'm all for legal -- legal -- immigration. There are plenty of poor people in America with enough principles not to sell drugs or prostitute themselves to make money. If you don't support Americans resorting to crime in America to make money, why overlook other people resorting to crime in America?

And yes -- being here illegally is a crime. Hence illegal. And everybody who is here illegally is a criminal.

Some of those who cross over may be dangerous, no doubt, but I think most are just trying to live the only way they know how. If you want to talk pragmatism and politics, yeah, lock 'em out! It may or may not keep it safer, it may or may not give us more jobs.

It will keep us safer. It will let us keep more jobs. This has been proven. With the economy in a slump and unemployment high, why should we not lock down our borders so more criminals don't come in and take jobs that Americans would do? And no, illegals don't do the jobs that Americans won't do. They do jobs for cheaper than Americans do them -- which means that while taxes go up, the costs of some products go down slightly, and jobs are unavailable for Americans, which means more of them end up on welfare, unemployment, etc.

[T.G. Oskar]

Congratulations to them -- do it legally. There are plenty of ways to get into the country legally. I'm all for legal -- legal -- immigration.

Umm...right. There are several ways to enter legally to the US.

Mind explaining that to a person whose amount of scholarship at times reaches only 1st or 2nd grade? Might seem a bit exaggerate, but it's not undeniable.

You, being someone who quite probably has access to the Internet and perhaps with a scholarship well exceeding high school, perhaps even a bachelor's degree, might be aware of those several ways, which is great. For those people, the only way is "cross the border or pay a coyote to get over the border".

And of course, those are the people willing to work, and who knows, even to study...

There are plenty of poor people in America with enough principles not to sell drugs or prostitute themselves to make money. If you don't support Americans resorting to crime in America to make money, why overlook other people resorting to crime in America?

Well...that depends on the degree of desperation they might have. And I don't mean the kind of desperation where you think "darn, maybe I'll have to tighten my wallet to pay my bills" or the kind where you think "hmm, maybe if I delay my payment of water, I can pay my mortgage and my electricity bills, and maybe if I change the kids into a cheaper school...". This is the kind where you think "I haven't eaten for a month and I won't have food tomorrow: it's now or never".

There's also enough people in America with scruples and principles that are scammed daily by people offering them dreams. These are people with enough revenue to make a living, and they get scammed. Imagine when you have someone who got deported, saying "I got caught, but things are better there!" and sell them a dream.

These people are ignoring, or perhaps are ignorant of, that crossing the border is a crime. For all they know, they think it is to keep them away. Those who advocate for an immigration reform know what these people are doing, but they also provide legal assistance to change their migratory status from illegal to legal, through the existing ways to do so (usually, filing a case where they, even already inside, request legal residence or citizenship). Usually, these same people urge them to fix their migratory status, and not fall into the usual traps (marrying a US citizen for the papers and then leaving them, since the US citizen has the right to inform Homeland Security out of fraud), for example.

And yes -- being here illegally is a crime. Hence illegal. And everybody who is here illegally is a criminal.

That depends. Illegal for Chinese since the 1875, illegal to Southern and Eastern Europeans since 1924, barely legal since 1917 for people of low scholarity, illegal since 1934 for Filipinos, illegal since 1950 for anyone suspected to be a Communist and illegal since mostly 1954 to Mexicans and Central Americans. However, anyone who's white Caucasian (although I believe Indian Caucasian as well), mostly of Anglo-Saxon descent, and mostly of Protestant denominations are usually welcome (i.e., usually allowed entry and quick naturalization).

Immigration was not originally illegal. It has turned restricted ever since the last quarter of the 19th Century. That goes without mention that America is a land built from immigration at its core.

It will keep us safer. It will let us keep more jobs. This has been proven. With the economy in a slump and unemployment high, why should we not lock down our borders so more criminals don't come in and take jobs that Americans would do?

I'd go with "fight the outsourcing", but that's just me. It's fine if you wish to keep the jobs American-born people might want to do, but try also to reduce outsourcing and keep the darned jobs in America, instead of having companies send them to cheaper places. That should work wonders for the economy, considering that...

And no, illegals don't do the jobs that Americans won't do. They do jobs for cheaper than Americans do them -- which means that while taxes go up, the costs of some products go down slightly, and jobs are unavailable for Americans, which means more of them end up on welfare, unemployment, etc.

...companies are always looking for people that do stuff for cheap. Just like in this example: Mexican and Central American immigrants don't usually go and say "I'll do it for 70% less than what any American can do it", instead they go for "I'll work for anything, because I'm hungry". And that is the people who wishes to work, not the people who wish to cause troubles.

So think about it: immigration is unfair because it takes jobs from Americans, but outsourcing is fine because it takes jobs from Americans, but you can't do jack because you're not willing to migrate for that job?

Just saying. I'd rather tackle the problem with some finesse rather than just keep everyone away, instead of just the people you really don't want here. Either work things smartly, or plain destroy the illusion of the American Dream (tm) for all these people.

[Sasquatch]

Umm...right. There are several ways to enter legally to the US.

Mind explaining that to a person whose amount of scholarship at times reaches only 1st or 2nd grade? Might seem a bit exaggerate, but it's not undeniable.

Embassies and consulates do this. If I would want to move from America to any other country, I would have to actually research how to do it legally -- and if I was too stupid or uneducated to understand it myself, there are people whose sole reason for employment is to explain it to me.

Besides, if these people have nothing more than first- or second-grade education levels, why would we want to import them into our country? We have enough low-educated workers to do the jobs with no higher standards.

You, being someone who quite probably has access to the Internet and perhaps with a scholarship well exceeding high school, perhaps even a bachelor's degree, might be aware of those several ways, which is great. For those people, the only way is "cross the border or pay a coyote to get over the border".

Of course, the Mexican government distributing fliers and brochures teaching people how to sneak over the border doesn't help, either. But since when is ignorance an excuse to break the law?

And of course, those are the people willing to work, and who knows, even to study...

And the majority of those people go through legal measures to ensure their entry and security in the United States. Like I said, I have no problem with immigrants to the U.S. being upstanding, law-abiding, contributing citizens -- but one cannot claim to be an upstanding, law-abiding citizen when their very presence in this country is against the law.

Well...that depends on the degree of desperation they might have. And I don't mean the kind of desperation where you think "darn, maybe I'll have to tighten my wallet to pay my bills" or the kind where you think "hmm, maybe if I delay my payment of water, I can pay my mortgage and my electricity bills, and maybe if I change the kids into a cheaper school...". This is the kind where you think "I haven't eaten for a month and I won't have food tomorrow: it's now or never".

That's the kind of desperation that makes them pay money to a coyote, or wait a few weeks to get paid to send money back to their family?

There's also enough people in America with scruples and principles that are scammed daily by people offering them dreams. These are people with enough revenue to make a living, and they get scammed.

And what do they do when they get scammed? They work harder or longer to make their money back. The vast majority don't say, "Well I got screwed out of my money, so I'm going to start breaking laws until I have money again."

These people are ignoring, or perhaps are ignorant of, that crossing the border is a crime. For all they know, they think it is to keep them away.

Many of them have crossed illegally into Mexico from its southern countries -- they know it's illegal, and they know it's dangerous.

Those who advocate for an immigration reform know what these people are doing, but they also provide legal assistance to change their migratory status from illegal to legal, through the existing ways to do so (usually, filing a case where they, even already inside, request legal residence or citizenship). Usually, these same people urge them to fix their migratory status, and not fall into the usual traps (marrying a US citizen for the papers and then leaving them, since the US citizen has the right to inform Homeland Security out of fraud), for example.

So they came here illegally, and they've lived here for years illegally -- why do they care to make it legal now? Why do these people advocate for the legalization of past criminal activity instead of the prevention of future criminal activity?

That depends. Illegal for Chinese since the 1875, illegal to Southern and Eastern Europeans since 1924, barely legal since 1917 for people of low scholarity, illegal since 1934 for Filipinos, illegal since 1950 for anyone suspected to be a Communist and illegal since mostly 1954 to Mexicans and Central Americans.

It's not illegal for Chinese, Southern and Eastern Europeans, low-educated, Filipinos, Communists, Mexicans, or Central Americans to immigrate to the United States. They just have to apply and fill out some paperwork, then take a test reflecting their knowledge of the country and its history. It's the same process for everybody.

Not to mention, the rest of those groups of people didn't come here and demand that the rest of the country learns, teaches, and observes their culture and language.

However, anyone who's white Caucasian (although I believe Indian Caucasian as well), mostly of Anglo-Saxon descent, and mostly of Protestant denominations are usually welcome (i.e., usually allowed entry and quick naturalization).

After they go through the same process, yes -- but you've also got to remember, most Anglo-Saxons don't come from countries that are complete shit-holes. And their presence here does not inflate rates of crime, teen pregnancy, dropouts, drug use, etc. etc.

Immigration was not originally illegal. It has turned restricted ever since the last quarter of the 19th Century. That goes without mention that America is a land built from immigration at its core.

America is in a much, much different situation -- and obviously much more populated -- now than it was a hundred and fifty years ago. We have our own people to worry about, we don't need to import more problems.

I'd go with "fight the outsourcing", but that's just me. It's fine if you wish to keep the jobs American-born people might want to do, but try also to reduce outsourcing and keep the darned jobs in America, instead of having companies send them to cheaper places. That should work wonders for the economy, considering that...

The way to do that is to stop punishing companies that succeed and profit, so they stop moving overseas for cheaper production costs. But that's a whole separate issue.

...companies are always looking for people that do stuff for cheap. Just like in this example: Mexican and Central American immigrants don't usually go and say "I'll do it for 70% less than what any American can do it", instead they go for "I'll work for anything, because I'm hungry". And that is the people who wishes to work, not the people who wish to cause troubles.

Now you're generalizing that all immigrants are otherwise law-abiding, contributing citizens -- but we know that's not true, don't we? If it was, illegal Hispanics wouldn't have higher rates in prettymuch every bad category and lower rates in prettymuch every good category.

Of course, it's also a generalization to say that all immigrants are bad people -- that's not what I'm saying at all. Most -- hell, even some illegal immigrants -- are good people, with jobs, that obey most laws. But it's just silly to expect that a person can not give a damn about laws when it comes to legal entry into the country, but obey and abide by all other laws.

So think about it: immigration is unfair because it takes jobs from Americans, but outsourcing is fine because it takes jobs from Americans, but you can't do jack because you're not willing to migrate for that job?

If it wasn't for overpowered unions and over-taxation of the achievers in the United States, there would be no need to outsource.

Just saying. I'd rather tackle the problem with some finesse rather than just keep everyone away, instead of just the people you really don't want here. Either work things smartly, or plain destroy the illusion of the American Dream (tm) for all these people.

Telling a group of people, "Come on in -- and stay -- but do it legally," is not the same as telling them, "stay out".

The types of jobs that illegal immigrants are taking from Americans... are jobs that Americans wouldn't want to do in the first place.

Landscaping duty. Maintenance duty. Hard Labor...etc.

Are you trying to tell me that fifteen million unemployed Americans wouldn't earn a paycheck with manual labor? Or that they don't want to? Hell, ninety-something percent of jobs are jobs that people don't want to do, but they do them because they need money and it's their most acceptable solution. But it's ignorant to think that without millions of illegal aliens, none of those jobs would be filled.

[SOLDIER #819]

I came from a broken and poor family and I wasn't a troublemaker in high school. Please, don't say that people can't help but be dumbasses because of their bad situations. People "look down" on them not because of their poor circumstances, but because the little bastards can't act like decent human beings.

While that may or may not be true, my point was merely that there is a tendency for people to group together others and simplify their situations.

Congratulations to them -- do it legally. There are plenty of ways to get into the country legally. I'm all for legal -- legal -- immigration. There are plenty of poor people in America with enough principles not to sell drugs or prostitute themselves to make money. If you don't support Americans resorting to crime in America to make money, why overlook other people resorting to crime in America?

I am personally neither for nor against this (as of now) since the situation is rather difficult. Many people who cross the border probably don't have the resources or, and perhaps this should be stressed, the time to get in legally before they succumb to their circumstances. So while it is illegal, I can sympathize with the desire to live. Few are so stoic that they would simply resign themselves and their families to miserable living conditions or death.

[Victoria]

Here's a line I remember hearing from a comedy routine that I think rains true on 'immigration' jobs and stuff like that.

The types of jobs that illegal immigrants are taking from Americans... are jobs that Americans wouldn't want to do in the first place.

Landscaping duty. Maintenance duty. Hard Labor...etc.

[Cain Highwind]

I wanted to say, thanks Oskar for giving me a new viewpoint on things. I completely agree with Sasquatch, but it's nice and refreshing to hear another viewpoint that isn't just "Oh but those POOR Illegals, we're so mean"

I don't think that whole justification that Illegal immigrants from Mexico = the various European immigrants of the 18th and 19th centuries works. I could be speaking from bias, but the impression I get is that the settlers of old came here for a fresh new life and they find a way to learn English and to get along with their "neighbors". Even immigrants of other Nationalities that I've met seem to match this I'd love to be told I'm mistaken.

The impression I get from a lot of Mexican immigrants at my work is close to racism, they look away and ignore you whenever you try and greet them. Hell, a couple times, I said hello to someone and they just said "Yah OK!" I mean really? We get people who hold up the lines because they don't understand the English involved behind things like a coupon or the concept of 15 items or less.

[Ragnarok]

I'm having trouble putting into words my opinion on this issue because there are so many thoughts flying around my head. My family is split with the new law because we are hispanic and all but myself live in Arizona. I'll try to be as clear as I can with my opinion.

Yes, the new law is allowing racial profiling, but that isn't new. People from the Middle East are stopped all the time in airports and nobody cares, so why is it any different now?

If you are an immigrant here legally, you have nothing to worry about. Pull out your green card or ID and get on with your life. It's only a minor inconvenience.

Businesses in Arizona are having to temporarily close their doors due to reduced staffing. But wait a minute...how many LEGAL Arizonans are unemployed right now? OH YEA!!! Hire those guys and you can open up again. What? You don't want to have to give benefits and periodic raises? TOO BAD!!! THAT'S PART OF HAVING EMPLOYEES!!! (Sorry for yelling.)

Now what upsets ME about the new law is the reaction toward Arizona for passing it. I'm a HUGE fan of the Arizona Diamondbacks (baseball team for those unaware) and I heard a rumor that they may be moving out of Arizona because of the new law. Heck! This year's All-Star game was supposed to be in Phoenix, but because of the law being passed it's been moved to Anaheim. The reaction being generated is only going to hurt Arizona more than the law was supposed to help it.

P.S. This isn't the first time racism has been thrown at Arizona like this. Martin Luther King Day wasn't recognized in Arizona until the NFL informed them that without the holiday Arizona will never hose a Super Bowl. I believe that was Super Bowl XXXIII?

(Sorry if I was rambling or unclear, I just needed to vent my opinion. Thank you for reading.)

[Heartless Angel]

Businesses in Arizona are having to temporarily close their doors due to reduced staffing. But wait a minute...how many LEGAL Arizonans are unemployed right now? OH YEA!!! Hire those guys and you can open up again. What? You don't want to have to give benefits and periodic raises? TOO BAD!!! THAT'S PART OF HAVING EMPLOYEES!!! (Sorry for yelling.)

Though that's a totally different issue, it's a big part of the problem. That's one of the reasons we get so many illegals to begin with, because they know some greedy employer would rather pay them beans than hire an American worker at minimum wage.

[Ragnarok]

I was PMed that the 2010 All-Star wasn't supposed to be in Phoenix, but the 2011 ASG. I'm not ENTIRELY sure about this because I remember a week long period where I found out this year's Wrestlemania was going to be in Phoenix while my ship was underway, and then I found out the ASG was to be in Phoenix during the next one. I was pretty upset that two big events were going to be in Phoenix in the same six month period in which I would be sitting in the middle of the ocean unable to attend.

[Discordius]

Zargabaath, I think hispanics in America are worried about this Arizona Law because they will be constantly stopped by the police to check their IDs, as if they are breaking the law until they prove the contrary.
The police are people as anyone else, and also hold that steriotype in their heads, which will cause them to constantly bother hispanics. The question is: what is a valid reason to suspect someone is an ilegal immigrant? Is it totoally up to the cop's ideas of how one such person would look or act like?

[Zargabaath]

Zargabaath, I think hispanics in America are worried about this Arizona Law because they will be constantly stopped by the police to check their IDs, as if they are breaking the law until they prove the contrary.
The police are people as anyone else, and also hold that steriotype in their heads, which will cause them to constantly bother hispanics. The question is: what is a valid reason to suspect someone is an ilegal immigrant? Is it totoally up to the cop's ideas of how one such person would look or act like?

Well, contrary to what some US media is saying, police officers can not just stop a hispanic looking person and ask for idea. They must have a legal reason as to stopping this person, let's say speeding. Well when pulled over for speeding the driver will need a driver's license and registration. Now I heard that there are a few states that don't require proof of citizenship - this should be rectified that way it makes it harder for illegal immigrants. Now an illegal immigrant shouldn't have a driver's license and a legal immigrant will most likely have to show the green card - which by law they must carry all the time. They also shouldn't be able to get registration for the card being illegal so without a driver's license or a forgery which the officer should pick up and no registration this person is already in deep sh*t. Now if this person w/o a license and registration appears to be an illegal immigrant - which in Arizona an illegal immigrant will overwhelmingly be a hispanic who may not speak english at all or well - then the officer can do whatever the law allows him to do (the federal government's job but they're too lazy to do that, plus the Dems want the illegal votes for them).


And once again, even though they wont' be randomly stopped without just cause, is it so hard to pull out their id which would take just a few seconds?

[Discordius]

Well, contrary to what some US media is saying, police officers can not just stop a hispanic looking person and ask for idea. They must have a legal reason as to stopping this person, let's say speeding. Well when pulled over for speeding the driver will need a driver's license and registration. Now I heard that there are a few states that don't require proof of citizenship - this should be rectified that way it makes it harder for illegal immigrants. Now an illegal immigrant shouldn't have a driver's license and a legal immigrant will most likely have to show the green card - which by law they must carry all the time. They also shouldn't be able to get registration for the card being illegal so without a driver's license or a forgery which the officer should pick up and no registration this person is already in deep sh*t. Now if this person w/o a license and registration appears to be an illegal immigrant - which in Arizona an illegal immigrant will overwhelmingly be a hispanic who may not speak english at all or well - then the officer can do whatever the law allows him to do (the federal government's job but they're too lazy to do that, plus the Dems want the illegal votes for them).


And once again, even though they wont' be randomly stopped without just cause, is it so hard to pull out their id which would take just a few seconds?

I'm saying they must be imagining this sort of situation when they declare themselves against this legislation. They're afraid, not trying to offend the US. By the way, I will try to read this legislation and see what is actually written there.

[Zargabaath]

I'm saying they must be imagining this sort of situation when they declare themselves against this legislation. They're afraid, not trying to offend the US. By the way, I will try to read this legislation and see what is actually written there.

If hispanic citizens of the US and those who are legal immigrants don't want the possibility of something as you mentioned then instead of protesting the law, they should march against the illegal immigrants! To tell the illegal hispanic immigrants to get the hell out that way the new majority of illegal immigrants would be some other ethicity or nationality (like haitians). Now would they ever march against their own people? No, because they have too pride for their or their ancestor's home country and I've said that if they love it so much they should go back - of course they wouldn't because America is better than the mess they came from.

[Leon]

Probably gonna get eaten alive after reviving this thread, but here goes.

I have Mexican heritage. I do agree with some of the things that most of you say. Yeah, I don't side with illegal immigration. Illegal, as in breaking the law? Yup. Maybe they do deserve to be deported. Who knows? I came to this country legally, so I wouldn't know.

But in the end, aren't we all illegal? We're forgetting that our ancestors took this land from the Indians. And they didn't do it by gambling for it or the Indians didn't just give it to us generously, even though they saved the Plymouth colony from starvation. Nope. Didn't our ancestors kill lots of them in cold blood and took their land, while sticking the rest of the survivors in reservations? I'm a Democrat, and even I disagree with Andrew Jackson's (another Democrat) statement of "A good Indian is a dead Indian." Seriously, someone refresh my memory. It's been a while since I took history class.

But let's not dwell in that, since they were probably compensated eventually. But this country is screwed even without illegal immigrants. I mean, we also have these politicians denying a bill that would help 9/11 responders (who won't be compensated for risking their lives during the 9/11 attack), an economic recession that occurred during the Bush Administration, and apparently a lot of money ($700 billion, from what I hear) is being spent to make sure the rich don't have to pay much in taxes.

Illegal immigration is just the tip of the iceberg. There are so many problems occurring in this country. Many Mexicans I've met, illegal or not, have been very kind and just want to live peacefully. Yeah, I may be Mexican which is why most of them are nice to me. But I know they're just too afraid to live in a white neighborhood, in fear of getting deported. Yes, again, it's illegal to live in this country without papers or whatnot. But if you had any idea of what's going on in Mexico, maybe we'd be receiving them in open arms.

People in Latin America are kidnapped often, and violence has been growing so fierce in Mexico that even the local police struggles with those other criminals. Those who can't take it come over here to the other side. Yes, others do it for selfish reasons. But they are the ones causing trouble. If all illegal immigrants came to cause trouble, don't you think we'd be at war with them by now?

And to close this post, well, I'll just give you a link I want to share with you. It's off-topic, but maybe you should be more concerned about this than immigrants. It's like shooting kittens who scratch at your door, seeking only a home to live.

Click here

[Heartless Angel]

I never see a problem with thread revival, but that's for the mods to decide I suppose lol.

But in the end, aren't we all illegal? We're forgetting that our ancestors took this land from the Indians. And they didn't do it by gambling for it or the Indians didn't just give it to us generously, even though they saved the Plymouth colony from starvation. Nope. Didn't our ancestors kill lots of them in cold blood and took their land, while sticking the rest of the survivors in reservations? I'm a Democrat, and even I disagree with Andrew Jackson's (another Democrat) statement of "A good Indian is a dead Indian." Seriously, someone refresh my memory. It's been a while since I took history class.

No, not really. Immigration is illegal now because we'e actually laid claim to the land and made laws. The indians never did that. Not to say we were justified when we came, but there was nothing illegal about it. May have been a **** move, but a perfectly legal **** move. The fact that we screwed people in the past doesn't mean we should bend over for someone else.

But let's not dwell in that, since they were probably compensated eventually. But this country is screwed even without illegal immigrants. I mean, we also have these politicians denying a bill that would help 9/11 responders (who won't be compensated for risking their lives during the 9/11 attack), an economic recession that occurred during the Bush Administration, and apparently a lot of money ($700 billion, from what I hear) is being spent to make sure the rich don't have to pay much in taxes.

Though I'm too lazy to go see if all of this is completely accurate, I will say it's irrelevant. The fact that other problems exist has no impact whatsoever on whether or not this is one, or whether or not something should be done about it.

Illegal immigration is just the tip of the iceberg. There are so many problems occurring in this country. Many Mexicans I've met, illegal or not, have been very kind and just want to live peacefully. Yeah, I may be Mexican which is why most of them are nice to me. But I know they're just too afraid to live in a white neighborhood, in fear of getting deported. Yes, again, it's illegal to live in this country without papers or whatnot. But if you had any idea of what's going on in Mexico, maybe we'd be receiving them in open arms.

Many murderers who managed to outrun police just want to live peacefully and without being caught and punished for their crimes too. Some of them may even be nice people. We call these people fugitives. What someone's reason for breaking the law is doesn't matter. They've still broken the law, and deserve to be punished appropriately. Maybe if we were to fall victim to rhetoric and appeals to emotion, we'd be accepting them with open arms. But as a critical thinker, I am forced to acknowledge that the purely factual premises of what has happened to them can in no way derive the normative conclusion that we should ignore the law for them.

People in Latin America are kidnapped often, and violence has been growing so fierce in Mexico that even the local police struggles with those other criminals. Those who can't take it come over here to the other side. Yes, others do it for selfish reasons. But they are the ones causing trouble. If all illegal immigrants came to cause trouble, don't you think we'd be at war with them by now?

And to close this post, well, I'll just give you a link I want to share with you. It's off-topic, but maybe you should be more concerned about this than immigrants. It's like shooting kittens who scratch at your door, seeking only a home to live.

Click here

No, we wouldn't be at war with mexico because mexican criminals happen to end up in our country. That's like saying we'd be at war with africa if enough black people committed crimes. We can't punish the country for the actions of a few criminals from it. The "problems" aren't nescecssarily just crimes comitted by illegals, but problems their very presence causes to our economy.

Again, the link and any and all other problems in the country is absolutely irrelevant. One can't allow such things to distract from the issue at hand. Yeah, there may well be other problems out there, that doens't mean stop all work on this one and forget about it. This is still a problem that need not be occurring, and one that we are capable of stopping from occuring. One also can't allow and obvious appeal to emotion to trumph solid fact and common sense. No. it's nothing like shooting kittens looking for a home. It's like saying to the stray cat who clawed its way through your screen door when you weren't home, to get the hell out of your house because you have no intention of paying for its food, healthcare and other expenses and letting it sleep in your bed, because it is in no way, shape, or form your problem.

[Leon]

Again, the link and any and all other problems in the country is absolutely irrelevant. One can't allow such things to distract from the issue at hand. Yeah, there may well be other problems out there, that doens't mean stop all work on this one and forget about it. This is still a problem that need not be occurring, and one that we are capable of stopping from occuring. One also can't allow and obvious appeal to emotion to trumph solid fact and common sense. No. it's nothing like shooting kittens looking for a home. It's like saying to the stray cat who clawed its way through your screen door when you weren't home, to get the hell out of your house because you have no intention of paying for its food, healthcare and other expenses and letting it sleep in your bed, because it is in no way, shape, or form your problem.

Well, I'm all out of things to say. I mean, really, what can I say after this? I respect whatever everyone else says because, sadly, this is just a problem that won't go away. You make some good points, too.

It doesn't mean I will oppose the immigrants, but at least it's clear that not everyone is nuts, racist, or consumed by pure hatred when it comes to this subject. We'll just have to wait and see what happens in the future.

Um, I really didn't have to post, huh? I just didn't want to stay quiet.

[Heartless Angel]

I generally respect what other say as well, but I see it almost as my obligation to challenge points I disagree with. Some would call me an asshole for it, and I'd respect that opinion as well lol. Mostly because I agree with it.

I somewhat agree. I don't appose immigrants as people, but rather immigration as an act. In the same way I won't say any thief is a bad person, because they may just be trying to survive, but that doesn't mean I can advocate theft on their behalf either.

That's certainly not a problem by my reckoning. Everyone has an opinion, some are more reasonable than others. But if nobody ever mentions them, we can never really decide which are the more reasonable, and we can't really learn anything from them.

[Sasquatch]

But in the end, aren't we all illegal? We're forgetting that our ancestors took this land from the Indians. And they didn't do it by gambling for it or the Indians didn't just give it to us generously, even though they saved the Plymouth colony from starvation. Nope. Didn't our ancestors kill lots of them in cold blood and took their land, while sticking the rest of the survivors in reservations?

They also bought it from American Indians. They also negotiated for it. And the land that was fought for, fighting was nothing new to the area. You're talking about white people moving in on stone-age people of warring tribes. Some of the tribes hated the newcomers and decided to battle over it -- but since the newcomers were much better at putting together a fighting force, they kind of brought the slaughter on themselves. Many tribes were simply caught up in the mix, but it's not like a group of peace-loving people was confronted with war for the first time when the evil white devil moved in.

I mean, we also have these politicians denying a bill that would help 9/11 responders (who won't be compensated for risking their lives during the 9/11 attack) ...

Wrong. The people who did it as a job will receive compensation anyway, without this bill even being written. They will get compensation for pension and for any disability. The bill you're referring to would have added more compensation for them -- not some, but more. They will receive, have received, or are receiving compensation anyway.

This would be like me saying that I'm already receiving disability compensation for injuries sustained in Iraq, but if I'm not given MORE than I'm already receiving, I'm going to bitch and complain and label people as evil.

... an economic recession that occurred during the Bush Administration ...

Wrong. This recession started during the Clinton administration, was made worse during the Bush administration by 9/11 (which could have been prevented if Clinton hadn't gutted the military and intelligence communities) and the housing bubble bursting (which could have been prevented if Clinton hadn't greatly expanded Carter's already-horrible CRA), and continued and made worse still during the Obama administration, by Obama's policies.

... and apparently a lot of money ($700 billion, from what I hear) is being spent to make sure the rich don't have to pay much in taxes.

Wrong. There's quite a bit going to bail out banks, but those banks need bailouts because they were forced by Carter and Clinton's CRA to pretend bad loans were good loans, and loan money to people who they knew wouldn't pay them back.

This whole "the rich don't pay their fair share in taxes" bullshit has got to stop. People have got to get educated, or this nanny state will continue until this country has pushed out every little smidgen of success.

Illegal immigration is just the tip of the iceberg. There are so many problems occurring in this country.

There are more problems than illegal immigration, but that doesn't mean that illegal immigration isn't a problem -- been around for decades, getting worse, and the continuation and worsening of one problem is leading to the cause or exacerbation of many other problems.

But I know they're just too afraid to live in a white neighborhood, in fear of getting deported.

If they're legal, they have no reason to fear being deported.

But if you had any idea of what's going on in Mexico, maybe we'd be receiving them in open arms.

While I'm not the type to dwell too much on the idea that they should have taken better care of their own country instead of trying to force support from others who have ... we know what's going on in Mexico and Latin and South America. But that doesn't mean that it condones breaking more laws.

You can't honestly say that most illegal immigrants care about obeying the law when their very presence in the country is against the law.

If all illegal immigrants came to cause trouble, don't you think we'd be at war with them by now?

At war with who? We can't "be at war" with illegal immigrants because legal hispanics (i.e. voters) would get upset. And there's no reason to go to war with Mexico -- that would only make that country worse and encourage more refugees.

[Unknown Entity]

What about the illegal immigrants who enter a country and actually work hard? Some end up working in appalling conditions, have ever worse accommodation, and are doing it all for mere peanuts. The place my father works at do get a lot of temporary workers from eastern/central Europe, mainly Polish. There's only ever been one case where one man turned out to be there illegally, and he was apparently one of the best butchers my dad had ever met in his life.

I'm not saying any country in the world should roll out the red carpet and welcome illegal immigrants, but it's annoying when people turn around and say that they're good for nothing lazy ass people, who only want to break laws and impregnate your daughters. I bet 99/100 cases, that's not true.

I put you in a situation where your house is on fire and you're so badly injured, you can't go back to save your kids. They could either die, or an illegal immigrant who's just walking by could decide to run in and play the masked hero. Those are the only two, ****ing options you have. What would you prefer?

To me, it's similar to stealing a loaf of bread to feed your family; is that right or wrong? In the eyes of the law it's bad, but your family need to eat or they'll get sick and die. No one can choose where or when they're born, or what kind of family they'll have or... etc. I could have been born as the son or daughter of a taliban. I could have been born in a village in the middle of Africa where the nearest "clean" water source is miles away and where school doesn't exist. I could have been born to a pair of artists or writers, and toured the world with them or stayed alone most of the time to my own devices. I could have been born to a celebrity couple and not ever having to worry about education because I'd be LOADED BITCHES.

There's a lot of people who take what they have for granted, and don't think about other people and their lives. Sometimes that turns people into racist pigs who don't know better. Sometimes that makes people incredibly naive (probably how I'm sounding at the moment). Just think about why some people feel the need to enter a country illegally in the first place.

On that last note, someone said a few posts back that you need a worthy education to be granted legal immigrant status... how about those students who dropped out of school who were completely legal American citizens? I can imagine America having a lot of drop outs just as any other country. Their only right to living in the good ol' US of A is because legal mummy and daddy conceived them.

If you're not supposed to be somewhere, then you face the consequences if you're caught. I'd recommend doing some legally in the first place. That's just my opinion on the matter.

[sayian]

look che... in my opinion,,,life is not so much about what happens to you but more so how you respond to what happens.. which creates your future somewhat.. sure i can be bitter about this and pissed off like u or other people but somethings will never change. i stated up there that it sux, and yes it does sometimes. im from arkansas and thats normal here, things aren't fair here, and also, shit happens. maybe im used to it idk tons of thing happen to me that i kno wouldnt happen to a white person but the difference between me and the last black guy that cop profiled may have opened his eyes to something, idk but it sure did make me feel more proud of myself that the cop had to walk away empty handed. just because something negative happens to you doesn't mean goodness cant come from it..