The Seekers of Illumination

[T.G. Oskar]

Welcome to the Seekers of Illumination.

This is a club dedicated to the sharing, development, and propagation of knowledge. As well, the club has as a main point the idea of altruism; of being benevolent towards others, regardless of belief or creed. Yet, we are also a club that promotes RPing in the forum, in one way or another, be it RP or RP Battle.

Our activities include the discussion of a variety of themes. As you may know, there's a place on the forum called Intellectual Discussion. We do not seek to replace or undermine such place. Feel free to participate on any particular discussion you like. In here, however, we seek to discuss themes with a degree of politeness and respect. The themes to discuss will change with time, and may be submit by any member. If the theme discussed has not been posted within the aforementioned forum section, and proves to be popular, we shall seek to share the theme with the general population.

As well, we seek people willing to participate in the Role-Playing section of the forum, grouped within a particular banner. Since the previous incarnations of our club, we have, albeit very slightly, participated under the banner of good, as the Faction of Light. We seek people that desire to participate on Role-Playing threads, or within Role-Play Battles, be them skilled or unskilled.

The requisites to become a member are relatively simple. There's no need to be skilled on discussion or with Role-Playing: those skills can be developed with time. The main requisite to enter is to post an application, explaining in a paragraph why do you consider yourself an altruist. Do you like to help others with their lives? Do you abhor injustice, in one way or another, and seek to resolve such? It does not have to be a long paragraph: about 5 lines should be enough. After that, I shall consider the application and decide if it is valid. One exception to the rule, which will be cause for denial of an application, is to belong to one of the other Factions (either the BoD or the Masters). If so desired, they may seek to participate as guests: however, their participation shall be limited only to discussion issues. Aside from seeking membership or guest status (if belonging to one of the aforementioned factions, or other factions were they to exist), no other TFFer is allowed to post. Notable exceptions are the Faction Leaders and their appointed Ambassadors, in the case of any notice they desire to write off.

The thread seeks to follow the rules of the forum, which are located in this location, linked here. Considering a discussion may cause people to be offended, we shall request and enforce members to behave in a polite manner, and also to accept and respect the opinions of others. Failure to abide by the rules will be considered a reason to expel from membership or remove guest status.

Having said that, please feel at home within the club. Any questions or comments, please feel free to PM me.

[Sinister]

*Bright white swirls appear as a door opens and a cloaked man makes his way into the room.*


"So it's Official? We're officially dead? Hah..."

Officially-officially?

Eh. ><
They're still calling us The Light Club...I mean...they have to drag their festering cimmerian bones into 2008.

Well their white-nittering aside. I am glad that you brought this to my notice, Oskar. I did not see this.

I'm sure other club members will gather sooner. This club is reborn yet again like a Phoenix, like a Christ. It warms my heart to see it reshape itself.

Considering the rebirth and all, we should begin preperations for a club RP in celebration... Ooh...and possibly work up details on...ranks aiee...so much to do.

We'll follow your lead, Oskar. 'Tis only you who could do the job. We'll all work on our levels of activity. I suppose the only thing left to do is wait for the other members.

As for Govinda...well...bit of unpleasant news, sir. She is indisposed. A cursory look at the bottom of the GC forum will only worsen this story so please refrain.

But she witnessed the manslaughter of a little girl by a red Ford. She is a little more than distraught and our best prayers, wishes and thoughts should go to her. She has a bit of a heavy burden on her sleep nowadays. But I have heard she intends to return at some future date. So patience and prayers.

-Sin

[Furore]

* Chaos rips reality and another enters, a shell of a man tormented by irrational thoughts and a lack of knowledge of the limits of everything he struggles to comprehend*

HAHAHAHAHAHA. That's the first thing I have to say, concerning of course the 'death' of this club. As a person who sees himself as just one of many manifestations of an all powerful force of chaos, I don't die too easy. Or do I? It really depends on one's definition of death now, doesn't it. Needless to say as long as I have an internet connection and the desire to stay online, one which doesn't really seem to be dwindling, I'll be active. I'm more than happy with the flexibility of this club...

I'll post my application thing as well, just in case:

Why do I consider myself an altruist? Well that's simple. Though I may not always go about things the right way I almost live for others. At times I HAVE lived for others, especially during periods of disillusionment. I'm known as a supporter of vigilantism where it doesn't have any commercial or other sleazy purpose behind it, and have been known to willingly help most people who merely ask. Flat tire? I'll help. Someone trying to mug you? I'll help you out. It has almost killed me a few times, but I wouldn't have had it any other way.

As for Govinda, I too was wondering about her. And more than a little worried as Sinister well knows from MSN...
I hope she comes through as well as possible. And Govinda if you read this, know you can ask me for anything I'm capable of giving. I'm sorry you had to see what you saw...

Finally, if there's an RP, I'll try to haul my weight, but I think I'm mainly here for the discussion. Keep it interesting.

[T.G. Oskar]

Good to know I have support. I just didn't wanted to feel like I bothered by constant reminders.

Sinis, despite that warning of not seeing the post and everything, I felt more than inclined to see it. I thus assume it is better that Miss Govinda be better kept alone and unbothered, until proper time comes in which she may seek an answer.

Pity, for I assumed she was one person with a strong mind, to be shocked in that way... Heck, I still stand to that position. She'll hopefully recover, though I assume that if she returns, she will be razor-sharp honed to any discussion.

Closest thing I ever saw was looking at my mother's friend trying to take her life away...about a year of that, and that very same person is living a very productive life.

Uhhh...I think that little thing of worrying about others' tragedies is overtaking my official position. Let's talk about something else, shall we?

Ranks, ranks...I have had something in consideration, but it must be parting from a very distinct view. Ranks for warriors, for debaters, and for both should be underway, but I think that ranking is still too early a thing to speak of at the moment. But...perhaps on the line of holy warriors, mages (evoking their ancient definition of "wise men", as emerging from the Magi), and...priests? Philosophers? Poets? (I like that last one: if you see the manga of Chevalier D'Eon, you'll see what I mean), each corresponding to the type of contribution. Something that stays far from stereotype is a good idea (with the sole exception of Paladins...I have a personal taste for the class)

That shall be a theme to discuss further on.

Role-Play...yeah, I assume that, with the rebirth of the club, there should be a refreshing of the RP thread we once had. Perhaps make a very small retcon, holding the idea of traveling to a plane of Illumination as planned, but parting from a different perspective.

To sum this all up, as always, opinions, ideas, or suggestions are always welcome (yet spam and flaming are not ) I would also give the...how to say, honor (?) of initiating the first discussion to be held to whomever wishes to. Mainly, for two reasons. One is because I want you people to cooperate. The second? Laaaaaziness.

I shall be parting for the moment, although there is something I wish to discuss...privately. I shall send a PM in order to discuss that private matter.

*blinks out of the thread as a beam of light dissolves the body into atomic matter*

VOICE FROM THE BEYOND: I like that last idea, of RP-popping into here.

[Aerif]

Well, I joined via PM recently. Or not so recently, I recall it being at least a fortnight ago.

Of course, there wasn't a discussion going on so I kept my mouth firmly shut and neglected sharing my knowledge *cough*.

I don't really have anything additional to add, I also can't remember what convinced me to make a post... Or actually the lack of a complete post, I guess it was to inform you that I joined.

*Sigh* If short-term memory loss was an appropiate subject to talk about then I'd suggest discussing that, however it's not, and I'm sure there's much more valid things to be said and done.

[Violet]

I'd like to join this club, because I am not one for violence, so BoD is out of the question. I've always tried my best to be kind to people and be a shoulder for them to lean on. I was raised as a Christian, so I believe that there's a God and heaven/hell. I'm a pretty good person at heart .. I've never been the one to hurt someone, but the one to be hurt by others. I respect those who are honest, fair, and kind individuals.

I can RP as well and I may participate if it gets going.

[Sinister]

Let it be known that I far respect Annikit and that she has proved her powers as a creative and kind person. Celtic can vouche for the same. A fine addition to any SOI club. What say you?

-Sin

[Furore]

Let it be known that I far respect Annikit and that she has proved her powers as a creative and kind person. Celtic can vouche for the same. A fine addition to any SOI club. What say you?

-Sin

I can and do. She's also very capable of higher order thinking and is great at role play as well as most anything creative. For whatever these little snippets are worth, she has my vote.

[Dimi]

Mind if I join?

The reason why I want to join this club is because what makes me an altruist is I tend to put others and there issues or needs before I put myself and my desires. I expect nothing in return but only the fact that I've helped them achieve something they wanted to.

Also, friendships are something I highly value. Loyalty, trust, and respect are the three key things that I believe is what makes good friendships. If someone that I talk to is having a problem or needs someone to talk to then I'm there to listen and I'm there to try and help.

I also believe that having an open mindset on life itself and what it has to offer is something that I truly appreciate. You live life once and I believe that being able to learn important things such as by investing through friendships and going through new experiences is really beneficial in the long run.

[Furore]

(As with Ann, I know Fishie is of sound character. He also has my support. )

*Toys with a vision of several possibilities in his mind*

How's this for a discussion topic?
Ok, there are many ways to reach a better end in a given situation, BUT what are the advantages and disadvantages in your eyes of doing the following:

- Using whatever means you deem necessary to achieve the best end you could hope for.
- Taking the noblest path, even at the risk of the end not being as good as could be hoped.

An example would be for the first one, a vigilante could beat the stuffing out of several men caught getting violent with a girl to save her.
An example for the second would be a man who puts himself between the men and the girl without fighting back in the hopes that him sacrificing himself could save the girl from the men and also possibly make the men see things in a new light, bearing in mind that many things could go wrong and the girl could still be beaten or killed if the men are set in their way.

Personally I see the man in the second example as the better one, but I would always do as the man in the first example. I see the ends as justifying the means, and hope that my actions will provide enough of a negative consequences to persuade those I face that it isn't worth it. Not as reliable as making them see things in another light, yet still effective enough.

Your thoughts?

[Sinister]

Excellent, Bro! If we are to have a group at all, I'd be glad for Bro to be a part of it. He is by far my favorite member. An excellent person. What do you think, Oskar?

@Celtic

I see the third possibility in your scenario. The man grabbing the girl and running. Doing his best to escape them before being forced into either of your other scenarios. That would be me.

As for your question, I believe it was displayed:

Ok, there are many ways to reach a better end in a given situation, BUT what are the advantages and disadvantages in your eyes of doing the following:

- Using whatever means you deem necessary to achieve the best end you could hope for.
- Taking the noblest path, even at the risk of the end not being as good as could be hoped.



I'll take it one at a time...

- Using whatever means you deem necessary to achieve the best end you could hope for.

The problem here is that quite often it involves the deadly scheme or trap or plotting. All of which are signs that no good can come of it. Plus all of it is wholly dependant on the person using this ethos. If that person be an evil man than it is no more good than he is. If it is a good man, than disregarding his morals may make him an evil man, though that be just a possibility. "Many a man may make more chaos with open arms than a closed fist." "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" ad nauseum

As for advantage it may get the job done...if that is all important.

In my opinion this most dangerous of roads should be shunned if possible. If not, then there is "little let us do"

- Taking the noblest path, even at the risk of the end not being as good as could be hoped.

The noblest path is always the preferred path. The greatest quandary associated with this path is merely recognizing it. So how do you recognize it? It should be the most obvious and hopefully the most instinctual. Even a villain and an anti-hero know the right path though they choose another. A thief knows stealing is wrong. A murderer knows murder is wrong. If they do not know it is wrong than there is no wrong path. How can there be? But that brings us into the realm of priori, which I don't know if everyone is prepared to discuss.

The noblest way cannot be written down into law. Mankind has proven that irrevocably. Even the old Taoist sages told the emperors not to indulge in written laws. Once you write a law down, it can be wormed out of.

That's all I have to share for now.

-Sin

[T.G. Oskar]

*pops into thread*

Hmm, more activity. It seems we hit the sweet spot.

Anyways, I've made a screening of Anni and Fishie's posting (I do that as a habit, or why do the forum has a posts made by member section if you aren't going to use it?) Considering both are smart, funny, original, and just about anything that makes people awesome, I give my two thumbs and my two big toes on their approval. Celtic and Sinis have more than approved your application, so do I.

(BTW, love the comic Anni. Keep working on it, very well drawn, and work on the coloring. Done a comic about the factions already? I'd like to see that world's perspective on factions. Also, Fishie, you remind me of the reason I actually got over here: trivias!!! I have to return to active trivia duty, or I'll be getting dusty all of a sudden)

Ahh, discussions. I can't get enough of 'em.

The means by which a person reaches an end speak a lot of themselves. Not always will a person choose the path deemed the right one by society/religion/parents/friends/etc. But, deep down, one's own way of seeing the world shapes the options you choose. The examples given by Celtic refer to a person that, in the case of women, have a sense of responsibility upon them, and even a sense of duty to protect them, as both ends imply saving and/or protecting the girl. It also speaks of romanticism. There are many other ends which can be deemed the "best" ends by a person, in an arbitrary way. Mauling the guys to earn points with the girl, for example.

Personally, I often tend to use the most passive means of achieving an end, very rarely taking active actions upon the matter. Using the aforementioned example, I'd rather cool things down with the guys and use diplomacy to leave the lady alone, without resorting to combat. Perhaps it'll end having to resort to violence, or serving as a meat shield, but I can't say I didn't try reasoning with them. Still, just being mean with the lady is rude in my book, so I may just resort to more "active" ways of gaining their attention (essentially shouting on the guys to stop what they're doing, and then realize I can try to speak the girl out of the situation)

Pretty complex, yeah, but I don't just look things the simple way. Quirk of mine.

Essentially, looking for the best means almost never happens when you need to react quickly, since you need to have the mindset to reflexively do it. If you are given time to think about it, then analyzing the situation allows to choose the best way to do it. The ends never justify the means, for it does not lead to a change in behavior, but to the perpetuation of the status quo: meaning, if you hit someone, that someone will consider that his way of thinking is the right one because he was expecting someone to try and act the hero, but will be dissuaded to achieve his end. Doing it in a way that someone does not expect to react to can cause a change in opinion, but that's something that takes more time than anything.

But when you have no time to react, the means you'll follow are defined by the mindset you follow, so you'll act rough if you like roughness and you'll act as a meat shield if you like sacrificing for your beliefs. Or you'll act smart if you are a smart-aleck, and so on.

In a nutshell: ends don't justify the means, the best way is to think about it and look the best mean to get the best end, but when you have no time, just do as you always do. Won't justify the means, but you aren't going to have time to think about it, so might as well do it if you can.

[Dimi]

Originally posted by T.G. Oskar
Also, Fishie, you remind me of the reason I actually got over here: trivias!!! I have to return to active trivia duty, or I'll be getting dusty all of a sudden.

haha, I should post on trivia's more too. I usually post in those when there is nothing to post around in the forums.

Originally posted by Celtic_Silver
An example would be for the first one, a vigilante could beat the stuffing out of several men caught getting violent with a girl to save her.
An example for the second would be a man who puts himself between the men and the girl without fighting back in the hopes that him sacrificing himself could save the girl from the men and also possibly make the men see things in a new light, bearing in mind that many things could go wrong and the girl could still be beaten or killed if the men are set in their way.

Personally I see the man in the second example as the better one, but I would always do as the man in the first example. I see the ends as justifying the means, and hope that my actions will provide enough of a negative consequences to persuade those I face that it isn't worth it. Not as reliable as making them see things in another light, yet still effective enough.

I would have to agree with Celtic on this one. The second scenario you provide is definitely the better way to go. However, the first one seems more better and would seem more successful then the second one. Because with option two, anything can happen. You can try to talk it out or hoping that they do realize its wrong.

Anything is possible in that situation and I would rather protect the girl and save her then risk her well-being by mediating the situation but it would probably have to resort to protecting her. But then here's Sinister's scenario that he's added in as well...

Originally posted by Sinister
I see the third possibility in your scenario. The man grabbing the girl and running. Doing his best to escape them before being forced into either of your other scenarios. That would be me.

Now out of the three, I would definitely agree with Sinister. Violence is not the answer but talking to them or trying to convince them somehow isn't the way to go either. I believe that with Sinister's scenrio, it does prevent you from having to choose the two that Celtic has displayed. The worst thing about this one though is what if they have a gun? If they do then well...you're screwed. Then number 2 would be the best. But of the three, I agree with Sinister's the most.

As for Celtic's questions...

Using whatever means you deem necessary to achieve the best end you could hope for.

This is the most dangerous road to take like Sinister had mentioned earlier. Basically, you're willing to do anything and possibly everything to achieve the best of what you want. That bad part about this is it can lead to many outcomes. If you're willing to do whatever it takes to achieve something, it can lead you into unwanted situations, perhaps even uneventful consequences. I do believe though that it depends on the person themselves and their determination on how bad they want it.


Taking the noblest path, even at the risk of the end not being as good as could be hoped.

This is the best road to take. Its obvious and the safest way to take compared to the first one. Although you have a less chance of getting what you had hoped for of what you're trying to achieve, I believe that good deeds and following the right way is rewarded later on. I'm not one to say to play it safe because I'm not like that but to rather not scheme or plot or manipulate into getting what you want.

[Sinister]

Oskar, should we continue our old RP? Should we issue a challenge to the BoD? We await your orders. Hmm... And if you've reached any decision of the PM you sent me, let me know. You know if you need any help, I'm here.

Also, I'd like to initiate a challenge to our members. Each of us to pick up a religion/philosophy and write a short essay about it, letting all the members know about the real peoples and their thoughts. That way we'll increase our knowledge of philosophies, thereby earning our club title.

^^

-Sinny

[Kaitou]

It certainly has been awhile. It's good to see that the club is alive and well. Quite a lot has happened it seems. I've got to break this habit of making spontaneous, brief appearances, followed by long periods of inactivity.

My discussion skills are still a bit rusty and limited, so I won't contribute to the current discussion. Just wanted to let everyone know I'm alive and well and that I plan to stay active.

Ciao.

[T.G. Oskar]

*pops into thread*

First of all...good grief, Kaitou has returned from wherever he was hiding!!! Hopefully expecting this visit is longer than most of your visits.

Second...about the RP, I assume that making a new one would be better than continuing with the previous one, as there are more new people than before, and since it would be a bit better to make a newer introduction to the RP in order to expand the number of choices for the members. The end result of the first adventure, however, will be the same as with the old RP (meaning, instead of beginning in the castle, we may begin in a different way, but the same idea of finding that plane is the first of the goals)

As for combat with the aforementioned group, I would suggest (as always) to fine-tune our own skills before issuing a formal challenge. I must admit, we've been a bit lax on the area of RPBing, and issuing a challenge now would be reckless and lacking thought. Still, that is one of the eventual possibilities.

Haven't made a specific decision upon the small request done via PM. I would like to expand that discussion via PM to all available members, to make a better choice.

Finally, that's quite a tough challenge. First of all, sounds like a chore (more homework to some, and a bit of un-rusting the brain for others), and the terms of the essay should be well-defined (how short is short? Own words or using fact?). Having said that, I do think it is a wonderful idea to follow, especially since it serves as a point of reference (especially if it has verifiable facts) for members to understand the points of view of others. It may also serve to create understanding, to dispel rumors and clear doubts. I would not like to determine a time limit for the essays (to make it less of a chore), featuring them when ready enough to post.

Any other decisions will probably be better left off tomorrow (it's already morning in my house, and I was with a bit of headache), presumably telling everyone via PM the small proposal I'm making.

Now, off to see how I can get the song "Carol of the Bells", the Home Alone version. Had to make a bit of rummaging via Wikipedia to find out one of the movie songs I really like. I must say, I'm a big fan of background music in games and movies, and even in soap operas (but those compositions are even harder to get, especially for Latin American soap operas)

[Sinister]

I agree with you about challenging the "aforementioned". We're not exactly up to par yet, but I think that we have just as good a chance as anyone. We have a roster of some excellent writers and if we start work right away with RPB and RPing then it could very possibly be a future outcome.

As for my challenge, it's not something that we have to commit to, more voluntary-like. It's merely a distracting enlightenment.

As far as length, I should think that would be totally up to the person. They can provide anything from a half a paragraph to a half a page, all depending on their zeal.

As far as when...I would prefer that we stagger them. That way we wouldn't have to read like seven reports in a single sitting and also so we have something to look forward to.

But that's my idea.

-Sin

[Furore]

I agree with you about challenging the "aforementioned". We're not exactly up to par yet, but I think that we have just as good a chance as anyone. We have a roster of some excellent writers and if we start work right away with RPB and RPing then it could very possibly be a future outcome.

As for my challenge, it's not something that we have to commit to, more voluntary-like. It's merely a distracting enlightenment.

As far as length, I should think that would be totally up to the person. They can provide anything from a half a paragraph to a half a page, all depending on their zeal.

As far as when...I would prefer that we stagger them. That way we wouldn't have to read like seven reports in a single sitting and also so we have something to look forward to.

But that's my idea.

-Sin

Yeah make this one voluntary. I love looking up things like this, but not experiencing what they do fully, I'd feel anything I wrote up on it would be disrespectful.

Just that they have ideas and I have mine, and the slightest misunderstanding on my behalf could piss off anyone from whichever religion I'd be making the report on. I'd prefer to do the research and try to just gain a fuller understanding myself, yet not type anything out due to possible offense.
Later.

[T.G. Oskar]

How about if, more than voluntary, it becomes a pro-con type of essay? Discussion cannot flow and grow if not challenged, even though at times those differences actually stall the growth of knowledge (when they become all-inclusive, exclusive to change theories). Discussing about a religion, or why the religion's points (and contradictions), in a degree of respect and understanding, may actually help to clear some questions, and gain a greater degree of respect upon the beliefs of others. That means, if you consider what you speak of, Celtic, as offensive, it is because you fear to expose your opinion. There is no opinion so offensive or vulgar. There is conflict of point of view, and at times, having your point of view challenged causes a bit of conflict. It is when you overcome that initial disgust, and you engage in discussion, when you gain another degree of respect for that person.

Still, if you consider that the best way to respect your fellows is to refrain from redacting the essay, then by all means I'll accept that. That is another choice that's equally valuable: placing camaraderie over offenses. Still, I consider that if someone just wants to have an objective essay, a subjective essay either going pro or con, or even a semi-objective essay, then feel free to do so. Bashing and attacking people, however, is utterly forbidden.

An admirable job you seek to do, Celtic. Be if for bashing (hopefully not) or for understanding, to be capable of reinforcing your statement with opinion, is admirable. That means I gotta be also doing my research...

One final point, and something I want to bring to hand:
With this new vision of the club, I want to prevent as much as I can the events that led to the division of the first and original club (not the SoI, but the very very first one) Please, this is something I ask of heart: do not let your beliefs (either side or the other) to cause a dividing conflict that ends in the secession of the club. I would not like to have another "Bringers of Light" incident. If, as Celtic did, you wish to refrain from an activity for you consider it may be a bit offensive, then by all means do so. I believe we all want a united club, a united faction, not two divided brothers, right?

[Dimi]

Originally posted by Sinister
Also, I'd like to initiate a challenge to our members. Each of us to pick up a religion/philosophy and write a short essay about it, letting all the members know about the real peoples and their thoughts. That way we'll increase our knowledge of philosophies, thereby earning our club title.

I find this interesting. I know people believe in different things and a different perspective on stuff. But if we're gonna do this, then I'm in. Just let me know when do you want us to start on it, Oskar. I'm also looking forward to the RP. I'm participating in Ann's RP as well so the more RP's I'm get in, the better experience I get at it.

[Furore]

I'm in too. I'll make myself a new character I think.
Something special.
Something.... fun to play with.

It's been a while, but not that long. I think my practice match against DragonHeart was probably my best. Coincidentally it was also my first. Regardless, she seemed to bring out the best in my writing.

Cheers.

[T.G. Oskar]

Hmmm...I'm intrigued by the possibility. Oh, the excitement of expectation!!

...that sounded wrong. Very wrong.

Aaaanyways, with the few final touches, Sinis and I will have the first bout, and with Celtic's intention to participate, would anyone else try to sign in, so that he won't feel so alone? If not, then I suggest a triple set of matches (as in, Sinis-Me, Celtic-Me, Celtic-Sinis) as an alternative. I did saw Aerif making a new character with a very general and wide set of moves. Perhaps a match in the making?

[Aerif]

Mr. Oskar you are a mind-reader!

Yes, I did create an RPB character with intention to actually use her. I hoped to be able to use her with an association of SoI, but saw no openings, I'm about to start a privately-formed match however I tend to work better when I have more than one post to make.

So yes, if Celtic approves then I will use my new character. We're both theoretically the same level at RPB, creative, yet not extremely experianced.

[Furore]

So yes, if Celtic approves then I will use my new character. We're both theoretically the same level at RPB, creative, yet not extremely experianced.

I'll accept once I've made myself a char for the SoI, BUT from looking at a few RPs I somehow get the feeling I'm gonna get my ass handed to me. ><
Sounds fun.

Ah, light themed character... ><
Give me another day.

EDIT: I made my character. Can be found.... here.
http://thefinalfantasy.net/forums/sh...&postcount=583

Yeaps, he'll be my SoI RPB char.

[T.G. Oskar]

Well...perhaps not a mind reader, Aerif, but somewhat a summoner. I just mentioned the word and *poof*, suddenly a post appears. Lemme try this...

Fishie...

Fishie...

Fishie...

...we'll see if the results are as I expect, or was just a random coincidence.

Do you think coincidences happen? Or merely forces beyond our frail comprehension cause events to happen? Such as, and not limited to: conspiration of the Universe, vestigial psionics (a.k.a. calling someone with your mind), fate, and others. How much of a "coincidence" is unintentional and unexpected, and how much is really something pulling the strings for it to happen?

As for the characters: I've seen before Sinis' character (Jaffar), and I'm glad he kept the finer points of his background the same (which is, essentially, everything). As for Gabrielle (Aerif), that was pretty fast done, as if you had quite the experience to make a character on the fly that was interesting enough to be played. Consider that talent praised.

Then there's Nate's character. I had quite the question of how a club of Law and a club of Chaos would behave. Good and Evil, the moral extremes, can be easily defined and determined. But Order and Chaos, the ethical extremes, were...too hard to be rationalized. I must congratulate Celtic for his character: it is well thought, how an envoy of Chaos could consciously choose to upheld Good over Evil. I'd really like to see how you go on with fights. Interesting concept...

As for my character, I decided to give it a massive overhaul. Something fitting to consider the fact of leadership and the boosts that come with it. Considering the amount of skills and power degree the rest of the characters there have, I decided that a bit of an overhaul was necessary. I hope that it isn't that much of an overhaul. I got the idea that a character that drew most of his powers through stamina from Eragon: I see it as a very interesting way to: A) explain what is given in exchange when using power in a qualitative way, rather than a quantitative way (it's easier to explain "I'm mighty tired after the spell" than "I lost xxx amount of MP because of the spell"); and B) limit the powers and abilities that may cause a bit of trouble (curative magic and protection wards, as they can unnecessarily prolong the battle) by making the big guns be really costly on stamina. Placing a protective ward and keeping it for a long time, considering the potency of various attacks, can be especially draining; accelerating the natural rate of recovery of the body by a thousand-fold drains resources of the body like uncontrolled hunger, and unconsciousness is the last thing you really want when fighting, so it gives a sense of consideration on whether to use a big-shot power to end things fast, or stall your stamina to land key strikes with lesser abilities. And of course, since recovery of stamina is pretty much hard to do, the element of resource management remains intact.

Hopefully that'll explain my thoughts if you or anyone who sees this considers the character a tad overpowered. I'd likely think not, but rather balanced to the overall power degree of the characters presented there.

[Govinda]

I have come out on top of my little mental episode and, as such, would like to apply again. I know that looking back through past posts makes up part of your procedure, Oskar, and I've got a black mark on my record. All I can say is something happened which set off a lot of things that had been sitting in my head anyway. But I'm back to as close to normal as I ever was now.

I consider myself an altruist because I love life, and everything that lives; trees, cats, people, tea bushes. I would do anything to protect that life, all the little bits of life which give us the wonderment we call Earth. I've always tried my best to do so, and to speak out against injustice whenever and wherever I come across it. It's not part of any belief system, since I don't really have a defined system - I have my own little arrogant code of morals, which places life and the intellectual marvel of justice at the top of my list of Big Things.

I don't really know what else to say, really. I'd like to write an essay for you about Japanese Shinto, if that'd be useful. I've been studying it lately, and I really like the way it seems to go, about kani and all of that - that all life is sacred, and connected, and that trees and the sea deserve respect. That when you die nothing horrific happens to you if you've not been a massive Shinto follower; the fact that you don't need to declare your belief to be recognised by your local temple.

I've never RPB'd in my puff and my RP'ing is decidedly dodgy; but it'd be fun to try, as long as there's somewhere/thread/thing/person which could show me the ropes of RPB. I may be pretty dodgy, but it shouldn't (operative word) be too bad. That and the overwhelming temptation to type I SHOOT YOU YOU DIE if bored (I wouldn't really do that).

Well, that's that. Take care loves.

EDIT: Oh, coincidence; I love it. How cool. Perhaps there's more to it than the butterfly effect and those complicated physics things; I tend not to prod into them, since I like coincidence too much to want to know more, for the moment at least. Circumstance. Does rain automatically make a day bad, or can rain make a first kiss all the more special? What if I hadn't been drawn to live with the people I do; would I be listening to the music I am now? Why did that bin fall over just that asshole on a scooter was speeding by? And how the **** does Hazel from college know my auntie Jacqui? I do love life, I do.

[T.G. Oskar]

Well...seems not to have worked as I thought... Not a summoner, sadly...

@Govi/Pablo (who knew you liked that name more?): Well, I was quite explicit with the rules, but I'll be more than happy to let that episode pass away. See, while you were trying to make ends meet, Celtic and Sinis were doing as possible to explain what was the reason you were a bit absent. Consider, albeit ironic, that while you tried to convince people that Internet is not the way to make friends, two complete (so to say) strangers stood up to you.

Which is, why, I let that one slip away. And perhaps a few more, who knows. Rules are rules, but a friendship, or at least a sense of camaraderie, is stronger than rules at times.

Shit happens, and more times than you think. Don't look at me as the stern enforcer of the law (I'm not a mod, whom are bound by duty, I am a sensible poster that happens to be the one that leads the club). And, being altruist does not mean that you have to cross your arms when shit like that happens. If you made the guy crash and realize he did stuff wrong by throwing a stone at it, I wouldn't mind.

Shinto..."the way of the Kami" (shin = one of the many ways to speak of a god or animistic spirit; to/tou = path. Or so I recall) I've heard a bit on Japanese lessons. There's supposed to be over 60 thousand kami all over Japan, and the one that's revered with greater depth is Amaterasu. Please, if you have the time, go ahead and make our day.

Which reminds me...I should do my essay too. But, I'm at a lack for ideas. Mostly everyone knows here about Christianity (be you accepting or not), so that essay would be redundant. So does Judaism, and Islam as well. A bit off would be the ideas of sects outside the main course of the religion, so off with Kabbalah (I know very little, but it's the most interesting sect of Judaism I've ever seen. And I was not drawn to it by Sephiroth, mind you, but by the Elementals)...unless you'd like to hear, in which case I'd have to get some reading. Perhaps a bit of still-practiced Mazdeim (Zoroastrianism)? One of the few dualist religions, as far as I recall. Either that or Zen Buddhism.

For RPBs, not everyone here is adept in the development of RPBs, and everyone is at most doing their first battle, so if you want to give it a try, there's the Roleplay Battle forum just a few steps down from the clubs sub-forum in the main page. First two threads are the character applications (important), and after that, the rules (also important). If you've participated in RPs, it's not that different; you simply participate with another, and attempt to deal blows to overcome the other one. I think I explained to Celtic a few pages ago: you might wanna read that. So far, Celtic and Aerif are still partner-less unless they decide to battle each other: you might want to wait for Fishie to come, unless otherwise. Just don't feel like pressured: if RPBs are not your forte, then you can just remain debating.

[Dimi]

Originally posted by T.G. Oskar
So far, Celtic and Aerif are still partner-less unless they decide to battle each other: you might want to wait for Fishie to come, unless otherwise. Just don't feel like pressured: if RPBs are not your forte, then you can just remain debating.

I could use more RPB experience. I seem to lack RPB in general and have only done one since my time at TFF. Mind you, I was a noob at the time so I'm guessing it didn't go well. I'll be creating my character either tonight or tommorow morning. Don't know who I'll be going against though.

I've also decided to participate in the essay activity as well. I go up and down with what I want to do. I would do religion but I'm not like a hardcore believer on religion at this point in my life. I'm not saying that I doubt whether some sort of divine entity is but I'm not sure whether I believe what I'm supposed to believe is true.

That's been going somewhat on mind for a while now, religion. My whole life I've been raised as a Catholic. My father's Christian and my mom's Catholic. However, my dad was willing for my sister and I to be brought up as Catholics instead. I've noticed that there's not much of a difference between the two but my questions are these....

1) How do you know the religion you have faith in is true?
2) Do you think that religions in general are just a way to give people "false hope"?

And its good to see you back at the forums Govinda. After reading your journal and hearing your side of the story, I'm glad you're back. You have a big heart I see now. Even for someone you don't know you do. And we need more people like that in life.

[T.G. Oskar]

Well...at least you got better luck than me, Govi/Pablo.

Also...love? I feel cared for.

As far as any conscious sensei would tell you, you can't turn your name into a kanji, since it must follow the rules for foreign language. In an essence, it means that you must use Katakana (the simple-looking and straight ideograms) to write it. As well, you must equal the sound of your name into the syllabic sounds of the language. That means, for instance, that all "L"s turn into "R"s, that consonants often follow the "consonant + u" syllable, and so on.

Now, if you've equaled the meaning of your name into the Kanji(s) that represent your name, then you've done something really wonderful. That's similar to re-adapting your name in the Chinese format.

How would the name Oscar translate? I've heard somewhere it's German for "lance of the gods", but that's a bit far thrown-off proportions. I know it would be somewhere around "Kami no yari", or "Shin no Yari", since most of the Japanese words have no plurals, instead depending on aids to determine the qualitative amount.

Or so I recall. Anyways, it's often Katakana or Romaji for foreign languages. And Kanji can be real complex, since often times a word has multiple meanings (Shin can refer to either new, god, or even bird. Whaddya know?)

Oddly, as a final on languages, I have the ability to read in almost proper pronunciation French, and pretty much understand it, yet I have not taken a single lesson in French. And, to add up to the mystery, Spanish and French, even if both are Latin-derived languages, rarely are similar. Odd, don'tcha think?

@Fishie: your two questions are pretty much solved easily. They don't need that deep of an answer.

First and foremost, you spoke about the religion you have "faith" upon. That, in a way, is your answer. To believe in the reality of a religion's dogma, you need to have faith in the dogma's main principles themselves.

Explanation: you believe that Christianity (of which, believe it or not, Catholicism belongs to) is the true faith, and you have faith on it. To prove that, you quote from the Bible, which by faith you have given authority. If you speak to, say, Govi or Celtic, they won't recognize the authority of the Bible (that's my assumption anyways), so you cannot use the Bible as a tangible proof of your convictions. If you take your belief into philosophical terms, then you have a greater chance of succeeding by the sole proclaim that you have faith in your beliefs. I can't say that you cannot be "out-logic"ed by someone else, but you cannot be disproven as long as you claim to have faith. Since faith implies that you believe in the thing you have faith upon without any further proof, as it goes beyond proof, you believe in it as true, and cannot be proven otherwise (since you have forgone proof and the need of evidence to support your claim, because your claim is that you need no claim), you need no further proof to reaffirm your claim.

Faith allows you to see things through a different lens. If you have faith, you'll begin to see things in a different way. Roughly the same as if when you believe in a particular philosophy, when you see things by the perspective of that philosophy. That does not mean you will see things the same way the others that have faith do, but you'll recognize the work of God, or whomever you worship, in the lens of that very same faith.

One final thing. Faith is not objective, but then again, nor does philosophy. You need hard evidence and lack of bias to achieve objectivity, something that philosophy cannot provide. In the realm of philosophy, the right belief is the one with the strongest support.

In short terms: if you believe it's right, then to you it must be true. If you have doubt, then you do not believe it's right after all.

Second: for hope to be false, it should be easy to dismantle, in the long term. If you claim that, for example, a long-lost relative of yours, whom you haven't seen for a long time but have fond memories of, will return eventually, you have hope that it'll return. Unless you are proven that the person is incapable of returning, it cannot be a false hope, since there's a possibility that it may be true: the window of possibilities is still open, regardless of the chance that it may happen. It becomes a false hope in the event that it becomes impossible for it to happen. If it has not happened before, then it does not mean it's false: it has not happened yet. That's it. Now...if the relative is dead, then it's a false hope, but it's not false until disproven. If, knowing that the relative cannot return by any means, you still claim that it will return, then it becomes a false hope as you realize it cannot happen, but you look for it anyways.

How does that translate into religion? Well, you cannot prove in hard terms that God exists without the other person having faith. But, since you cannot prove God does not exist (it happens because to do so, you must destroy the authority a person places on faith), you cannot then determine that religions only offer a false hope. You can, however, prove that the effects of worship and praise can either affect a person negatively, positively, or make no effect at all. A positive effect increments faith, a negative effect shakes the faith of an individual, and no effect at all diminishes faith. There are three possible outcomes, each of them having a response depending on the ability to offer authority to faith. That is easily proven: it's a statement. It's impossible that it happens and it does not happen, and rarely does it happens positively and negatively at the same precise time. Now, if something happens out of prayer and belief, does it means that when it happens the way you don't want to, you must lose all hope?

The answer is nope. See, if you have faith, you believe that God has a mission, and that His Will cannot be twisted or changed to your whims. If it happens in the negative sense, or nothing happens at all, then you understand it is in His Will that it does not happens the way you seek to. That keeps your hope alive, or gives you a new hope, which replaces the aforementioned one. If you do not have faith, then either you must place authority on faith, and believe of heart, or stop seeking a religion and live your life the way you really want to.

In a nutshell: it depends on whether you have faith or not. If you have no faith, then you'll be deceived when you find that what you seek has not been given. If you have faith, then you will not lose your hopes even if you do not receive what you sought for.

I must admit, these two questions are easy to answer, but present a challenge. Why easy? Well, you answer them according to your point of view. Why challenging? Because there is no single equal point of view: all are different.

I can foresee a future "well, I must differ from your dissertation" or something similar. All I can say is, "I place authority upon the words of the Bible, although I have my issues with how true the parts of the whole are. Just as I cannot prove God's existence with things you place no authority to, so cannot I accept your proof of God's lack of existence if I do not recognize the authority you cite".

JIC, that's my defense in case someone feels offended. Don't take it as an attack to personal beliefs, but, in the end, you believe what you want to believe, and place the authority of truth on whatever you want to place it to. You cannot convince someone that religion is false as long as you do not challenge the beliefs of that person and the authorities and where it places them. In the same way, if you are to challenge the proof, you must accept that the person is equally capable of challenging your beliefs and refusing to recognize your authorities. In the end, the winner of the debate is, believe it or not, the one with the greatest power of conviction.

Or how do you think Nietzche, Marx and Lenin extended their beliefs? And why do you think people recognize them as authority? Because they have solid proof and aren't biased? Or because they had skill to convince? Regardless of the answer, consider that perhaps not asking and pondering upon the question solves much of your problems. Because it grants you focus on those really important ones, such as "what'll you do tomorrow".

Whew...that was a mouthful. And it's about to be morning over here, so I bid ye adieu and good moment-when-you-wake-up.

[Furore]

If you speak to, say, Govi or Celtic, they won't recognize the authority of the Bible (that's my assumption anyways), so you cannot use the Bible as a tangible proof of your convictions.

Actually I do consider myself Christian. Just not your typical sort. I recognise the authority of the bible, yet I DO NOT recognise that anyone has the flawless ability to interpret it completely right. ^^

Here's why. Most if not all random passages will reveal different things to different people. Or a person will respond differently to the same piece of text. A decent enough example can be seen through all the Christian denominations. Some people disagreed with what the established meanings were and broke away from the main part of the church.

There's also another little chat I had with someone who's spent a lot more time than myself trying to find revelations within the pages of the bible who had something to say that I found interesting. I'd heard it before of course, but this time it got me thinking. Know how Jesus used parables to teach people who may not have gotten the meaning through other means?
Well basically I wonder this. What if there are in fact meanings hidden even deeper? Like the first meaning of something is a simpler lesson, and there's much more meaning below the surface.

The bible could be telling more than we could ever know. ><
Presuming it's Christianity a person believes in of course. Chaos dictates to me that there's nothing better than a wide variety of beliefs.

Let me clarify my beliefs a little...
Chaos in mythology is a big part of my beliefs. Granted it was Greek mythology I believe, BUT it told of a void that the Gods came from. And was said to be made up of the four Greek elements earth, air, water and fire.
Since I'm lazy...

* Air is primarily wet and secondarily hot.
* Fire is primarily hot and secondarily dry.
* Earth is primarily dry and secondarily cold.
* Water is primarily cold and secondarily wet.

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_element

They represent in Greek philosophy, science, and medicine the realms of the cosmos wherein all things exist and whereof all things consist.

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_element

So to me that would indicate all things can be made of the void. Everything from nothing. Granted these are older ideas, but perhaps there's a truth to them. Anyways, I see this void as the Christian God. He's not exactly nothing, more he's everything, just not really in the same form of existence to us.

All things come from God.

Then finally there's God's nature. It's commonly believed by some that however things end, it will turn out for the better. I also believe this. BUT I believe that God is behind everything both good and bad. And that the good and bad may not really be exactly as we think they are. That is good may not be as good as we think, and bad might be better than we could ever believe.

For a time I believed God to be unfair just due to the interpretation of the bible by a few people who were higher up in a Christian church type sense. I've since realised it was most likely just a poor interpretation on their behalf, BUT I still question a lot more than most will, whilst maintaining a less than typical view of God.

So I'm a Christian, yes. Just not one of any named denomination.