Intellectual Threads.....slipping???

[Koda]

I've been watching for a while, and personally I have found that there has been very little activity in the Intellectual Threads. There are more 'past' threads being brought up than new threads.

There are plenty of things going on in the world that could certainly start intellegent conversations. Why has there been no conversation over what is going on in the World News? The VP Candidates in the U.S.? The major cover-up murder in Egypt?

I'm beginning to think that all of the intelligent people are leaving because they, as I, am becoming extremely bored with all the 'old' things that are being brought back up.

What are your thoughts on the subject?

And please, no childish, smart ass replies like...........'well if you don't like it, then leave'..... Maybe I should address these questions to those over 18 or 20 years old.

[Victoria]

Here's a different reply than the smartass/childish ones you don't want to hear.

"Instead of waiting for topics to appear, make them yourself." That seems like a logical, viable answer to me.

I also think that there are no topics of said things mostly because nobody really cares enough about them to start topics about them.

I mean, I'm 24, but.. I certainly don't care. I'm not one to watch the news anyway.

[Koda]

Here's a different reply than the smartass/childish ones you don't want to hear.

"Instead of waiting for topics to appear, make them yourself." That seems like a logical, viable answer to me.

I also think that there are no topics of said things mostly because nobody really cares enough about them to start topics about them.

I mean, I'm 24, but.. I certainly don't care. I'm not one to watch the news anyway.

Maybe that is a big part of the problem that we all face in many aspects today. You don't watch or listen to the news, and you don't care. Anyone over the age of 17, in my opinion, SHOULD care about something that is going on around them, their country, or other countries, other than what is on sale at the mall. Now there is a whole new thread in itself.

And I have started threads, but it's hard at times to find anyone that is 'adult' enough to carry on an intellegent discussion about certain topics.
I understand the 'slowing down' season, so to speak, but as Martin said, I sometimes question the topics that are in 'Intellectual Discussion'.

But then, maybe that is also one reason many people leave this forum.

[Zell Dincht]

In response to your observation I think that there are a few possible explanations. Many users here on TFF have simply become the more "lurkey type" I know I have. Perhaps it would be fortuitous to create some new threads that might peak interest? I'll admit, I only really enjoy posting on here when there is something that particularly grabs my interest.

Sigh, the days of yesteryear have indeed been lost me thinks.

[Martin]

I do agree with the sentiment. I just think that perhaps we should expand the boundaries of what we should consider to be "Intellectual" in the first place i.e. differentiating between what is intellectual or what should be really placed into GC. And we could certainly gain more mileage by possibly breaking down some of the threads into subthreads. A lot of the threads generalise.

For instance, the one regarding Aliens is a good well-answered thread. But well it could perhaps be a little less broad if you catch my drift. Such as maybe a thread on Area 51, Roswell, life outside our galaxy etc. That why we could focus a little more in-depth perhaps.

Also I've noticed a general downturn in activity in most of the FF threads in general, which isn't as hard to explain. What more is there to talk about? This site has been going so long it's hard to find new topics to talk about, without eventually bumping some old ones in the process.

[Pete]

I've got to agree here. That being said, it doesn't help when half the people here are considered "functional" on a good day. Clearly, for the most part, those won't see this, so it doesn't really matter.

This board usually dies down during this time of the year because of people not having time to put great amounts of time into debates because of classes. It'll pick up in the summer and holiday times, but yeah I completely understand what you mean.

And it's not that easy to constantly come up with posts for this place, especially without rehashing old ones. I'll do my part right here and right now though.

[Chez Daja]

Mistress Sheena is right. If it bothers you, make the topic yourself. I find as long as you have a little spare time, it doesn't hurt.

I don't really understand why people don't bring more current affairs up, but if it registers with you, then go for it. TFF starts to die a little around the Autumn and Winter so you'll see a big rise and fall in threads in the forums.

[Walter Sobchak]

I used to be one of the more active posters here, but I stopped because it wasn't worth it. You cannot have an adult conversation in these forums because most of the people here are children or still a child mentally.

I am much more active on a forum with adults, so I can talk about things without getting a headache.

[Furore]

I used to be one of the more active posters here, but I stopped because it wasn't worth it. You cannot have an adult conversation in these forums because most of the people here are children or still a child mentally.

I am much more active on a forum with adults, so I can talk about things without getting a headache.

Scared of the fresh perspective an unconditioned mind like a child's can provide?

I say this as most of the more serious seeming ID goers seem more than intellectual enough to hold their own. Yeah, you do get some threads swamped with shorter replies, but compared to some forums I've been on, the level here is superb. As far as I can see if you don't post you're either lazier than me, don't really care, or don't want to accept what others have to say. An adult would listen and contribute with the knowledge that he/she might be just as wrong as others, yet might also be right and be interested in seeing how things pan out.

Maybe the ID sections just needs some more people to give their perspective and share their thoughts on the subject in a more intellectual way? There's no easy rule or anything, as some replies could warrant a one liner in some cases, but maybe attempt to foster an unspoken rule about keeping things as intellectual as possible as opposed to more GC based in nature?

It's just a suggestion, and likely unfeasible, but it's better than belittling others just because they don't seem to be acting adult enough.

[Govinda]

Scared of the fresh perspective an unconditioned mind like a child's can provide?

It's just a suggestion, and likely unfeasible, but it's better than belittling others just because they don't seem to be acting adult enough.

I agree with Mr. For S-Mod on this one, wholeheartedly. They don't give a different perspective. They talk crap, don't argue it properly, and refuse to listen to reason.

Unconditioned minds are just fine. However, in that state, their grasp of facts is somewhat lacking. Their ability to take hold of greater moral concepts and such is also limited.

The mess that came of the numerous threads on religion was another reason I lost faith. The inability of people here to learn to live with someone else's opinion, to agree to disagree without a giant landslide of masked personal jibes and so on is huge.

I liked to post on here, in this bit, a few years ago. I don't see the point anymore, really. I'm on a forum with adult minds also, and they'll have a rational debate with you, of a calibre that you can't find here. I don't know if it was once here or not, because when I used to post my brain wasn't half as up on the game as it is now. I prefer just to post short things now.

The last time I made a thread in here was last year. It was an attempt to open a discussion about the political behaviour of Russia as a nation and a government. It received no replies.

Still, Koda, take it on - we'll certainly help if the discussion doesn't become drugdery.

[Halie]

I agree with Mr. For S-Mod on this one, wholeheartedly. They don't give a different perspective. They talk crap, don't argue it properly, and refuse to listen to reason.

I'll have to disagree with both of you there. Not every child/teenager on this forum talks 'crap'. There are many on here who can have an intelligent discussion. I'm young myself, but I don't think I talk complete crap. Sure, my posts aren't perfect and they don't always show intelligence, but they aren't completely stupid and are legible, much like a lot of other young members here. You can have an intellectual discussion with some of us. But remember, this is a Final Fantasy forum, and Final Fantasy is a video game. And what do kids do nowadays? They play video games. So they will always pop up here and there.

That said, if their posts bothers you, why not take no notice? Ignorance can still be bliss.

I do agree that not many kids these days take notice of what's going on in the world. Although I do feel that it isn't always their fault. A lot of parents these days shelter their kids and over-protect them, even by simply not letting them watch the news or even to hear a supposedly bad word, which could have a lot to do with it.

[Furore]

I agree with Mr. For S-Mod on this one, wholeheartedly. They don't give a different perspective. They talk crap, don't argue it properly, and refuse to listen to reason.

I hear you. I mean there are a lot of close-minded stereotypes presented in some discussions, but I think that's more views we as individuals hold from our experiences. But that's not from the 'fresh young minds' half the time, that's from the people who have been around long enough to have the opinion they hold. There's nothing I hate more than someone with an aura of superiority, and that's what I see in some. Not just in the ID threads themselves, but their everyday act. I feel I need to remind everyone that humanity as a whole knows a good deal less than many think, so the chances of any one person being right about everything are slim to jack-squat.

Unconditioned minds are just fine. However, in that state, their grasp of facts is somewhat lacking. Their ability to take hold of greater moral concepts and such is also limited.

And they may also have not yet swallowed all the crap they force down your throats in school. I mean seriously, don't you ever wonder at the validity when more than half of what they teach is theory only? I know I sure as hell wasn't satisfied with what was being taught, especially when some of the books were from half a century ago and contained inaccurate information by the barrel load.

They can provide a fresh perspective if they haven't had their mind conditioned and I've seen plenty of people many would consider sub-par in terms of intellect who are perfectly capable of making moral decisions (some are better at it through not really caring how people see their actions e.g. It might not be cool to help that one geek being picked on by the cool kids) and can actually pick up specific concepts quite easily, just on another scale. They might also see the smaller scope that the more 'intellectual' people miss over the deeper questions.

The mess that came of the numerous threads on religion was another reason I lost faith. The inability of people here to learn to live with someone else's opinion, to agree to disagree without a giant landslide of masked personal jibes and so on is huge.

I truly am sorry to hear that. But I lost my faith in some people's opinions in other threads and I still post in many. I've even gotten to the point where one or two threads I just gave up due to people repeating the exact same points over and over again despite them being dismissed. I just stop caring about the single threads in question.

I liked to post on here, in this bit, a few years ago. I don't see the point anymore, really. I'm on a forum with adult minds also, and they'll have a rational debate with you, of a calibre that you can't find here. I don't know if it was once here or not, because when I used to post my brain wasn't half as up on the game as it is now. I prefer just to post short things now.

Maybe find a MENSA forum or something then? I mean the only place I've been where the discussion was of that high a calibur compared to TFF was the ID of a forum for those with Asperger's Syndrome, and some of them are bloody geniuses.

The last time I made a thread in here was last year. It was an attempt to open a discussion about the political behaviour of Russia as a nation and a government. It received no replies.

I can't vouch for everyone, but I'll apologise for my lack of a response. I've always hated politics and whenever I try to write a post about it, it usually becomes a rant a couple lines in. I abstained for everyone's benefit.

Still, Koda, take it on - we'll certainly help if the discussion doesn't become drugdery.

Aye, I shall make the effort to post in a few ID threads.

I don't mean to offend younger people, Aeris, not at all. You're not stupid, and neither are many other young people; but like you said, this is a Final Fantasy forum, which attracts a certain kind of teenager. There are always exceptions to the rule, granted; but most of the time on TFF, the standard of 'debate' and, more importantly, conversation just doesn't compare to other places on the net.

Maybe it is just the gaming clientele; who knows. But ID needs to be rejuvinated somehow.

Notice the bit I bolded. Most players of RPGs in any form are stereotypically thought to be the smarter types. I mean it's not like this is a forum based on twitch games or anything. Not only is Aeris not stupid, she's actually intelligent enough to not only hold her own, but show some of you up.

It's not isolated to the younger ones. No, we get smart ass-y replies and one liners from some people a bit older. If you look at people like her or Martin, you'll notice they seem to raise the bar fairly highly.

No, ignorance is just that....ignorance. And if it isn't corrected, and they aren't taught differently, then they continue to be ignorant.

Ignorance can be bliss. If you're unaware that something bad will happen than you're a lot happier than if you knew it was going to happen, right?
Even the intelligent can be ignorant about some things, and it brings them no pleasure to have such things brought up at times.

[Victoria]

Well, this is what I've always thought about the news or any kind of current events:

If it doesn't directly/indirectly involve me in any kind of way, why should I bother caring? If it's a topic I'm interested in, I'll listen/read about it. Otherwise... I could care less. I'm sure I'm not the only one with this type of mind set.

[Koda]

I'm sure you are not. However, don't you think that in some cases, whether you are directly involved or not, that someone else's action's could possibly affect you indirectly?
For instance, you're out having a great time, clubing, socializing, whatever the case might be, or even sitting at home.....there's been a bank robbery. The suspects just happen to end up where you are and start shooting. At that very moment, YOU do become directly involved. You may even become a victim yourself. (Far fetched I know, but remember, it did happen once in L.A., it could happen again)
Actually, if you really stop and think about it, EVERYTHING does affect you in one way or another, whether it be the gas prices, grocery prices, cost of living, Government Officials, etc. Even Joe So and So's job down the street could possibly affect you indirectly in some way. Maybe he is on the city counsel and has an opinion about the area in which you live in. He get's something changed, you don't like the change. But since you didn't care enough to know about it, you didn't get to voice your opinion.
I'm not picking on you, I'm just saying that I think it's important for our younger generation to be more alert on issues that are going on around them that they have no interest in, because one day, if no one cares what is going on, it's going to get much worse than it already is.

[Govinda]

What about, hypothetically, a war coming to America? It could happen. Then you'd certainly give a shit, and so would everyone else.

People need to pay attention to what's going on; you're alive, why not absorb all of it? Ignorance, en masse, is a killer; and you're totally right when you say that you're not alone in not watching the world. I suppose it's up to you, and them, though; and if this is the way that most of humanity wants to go, I'm no power to stop it. Just now at least. But when I'm totally in charge of the world...

[Koda]

Well, actually Pablo Honey, since the terrorist attacks, we are at war, but luckily it isn't on our own soil. However, where the war is, well that's another thread. But what you are saying is absolutely true. Everyone that turns their head from everything that is going on in our world are fooling themselves if they think it isn't going to affect them.
And anyone that says that the terrorist attack didn't affect them, well, they better take a real good look at the economy and rethink that thought.

[Govinda]

I don't mean to offend younger people, Aeris, not at all. You're not stupid, and neither are many other young people; but like you said, this is a Final Fantasy forum, which attracts a certain kind of teenager. There are always exceptions to the rule, granted; but most of the time on TFF, the standard of 'debate' and, more importantly, conversation just doesn't compare to other places on the net.

Maybe it is just the gaming clientele; who knows. But ID needs to be rejuvinated somehow.

[Halie]

I do see both of your points, there are some people here who are a litte too immature. But at the same time, they are kids, right? Some are mature and some aren't. Some are far too immature. But it's all part of growing up, I guess.

No, ignorance is just that....ignorance. And if it isn't corrected, and they aren't taught differently, then they continue to be ignorant.

I meant that in a way to say, that you should ignore them and their posts. I think that eventually, they'll learn. And perhaps there could be some sort of way to try and keep them from posting silly things in these kinds of topics, or more mature posts could be encouraged somehow. Although I do still think that more of the older members should still try ignoring the posts every now and then like I said. Because these kids will eventually grow out of it, I believe.

[Koda]

I meant that in a way to say, that you should ignore them and their posts. I think that eventually, they'll learn. And perhaps there could be some sort of way to try and keep them from posting silly things in these kinds of topics, or more mature posts could be encouraged somehow. Although I do still think that more of the older members should still try ignoring the posts every now and then like I said. Because these kids will eventually grow out of it, I believe.

Aeris, I meant no disrespect towards any of the younger members that post. And I do admire your insight and ability to communicate your opinions and thoughts in a mature manner. And you are correct, the more the immature ones are ignored and not given the attention that they are actually looking for, the more likely they are to move on to the less complicated subjects.

Thank you for explaining your post and pointing out what I did not see.

[Meier Link]

Ok, it is time for me to finally make a reappearance into ID.

I stopped posting in this section intentionally because any time I posted my opinions I was attacked for posting them. And to me that is more of what this section has turned into not a debate or discussion but verbal assults on people that have a different opinion on things or people that "stir the pot" (quoting myself from another thread) by taking the discussion to a different level or trying to get more then just one liners out of people.

But yes world affairs should be noticed by all but then again I am 26 and very rarely watch the news. Alot of what is going on in the world would make for great conversation peices but then again in my opinion all it would be is rehashing old subjects. Sure there is alot going on in the world but it is the same things that have been going on for 100's of years and have been exstensivly talked about on other forums and probably here too, I haven't been here for long enough to see the full cycle of topics that have come full circle. But I have been on other forums long enough to see it happen time and time again.

But I would have to agree with Aeris, Nathan and others, there are tons of younger people on here that can carry on a more intulectual conversation than most adults (Ex: old bean and unknown entity).

But one thing that does baffle me is how some one ever thought a discussion about threesom sex should ever go in on this section and how it was thought to be intulectual.

[Alice]

But I would have to agree with Aeris, Nathan and others, there are tons of younger people on here that can carry on a more intulectual conversation than most adults (Ex: old bean and unknown entity).

Otherwise now known as Zeromune!

But if anybody is wondering why there aren't any ID topics around, and they have a few good ideas for one, I'd say go ahead and post it. There you go, now everyone else with the same thoughts as you will have something to post in.

And I know I'm 13, but believe it or not, I believe some of us kids CAN get involved in a intelligent conversation. I've seen a few intellectual children and I'd say they don't seem like this to me:

They don't give a different perspective. They talk crap, don't argue it properly, and refuse to listen to reason.

Although I do admit I've seen many that fit the above description, but no offence meant, those are usually the asses.

Like a few people I know IRL...example.

"ur gey i hav proof"
"What would that be...? >_>"
"ppl say it"
"They have any solid proof?"
"dey were saying it!!!"
"And you believe it because they say it?"
"coz its tru!!"
"That doesn't show that something amazing was found out, I personally think it just goes to show you're gullible."

That convo is one of the ones that keep happening to me. Reoccuring, for a better word. True story. Sad, really...

However, I don't think I need to input something onto the Threesome topic and etc. Enough has been said before. I'll be back to say more, but I really should get going now. Be sure to see an edit. Or a new post.

[Koda]

Otherwise now known as Zeromune!
And I know I'm 13, but believe it or not, I believe some of us kids CAN get involved in a intelligent conversation. I've seen a few intellectual children and I'd say they don't seem like this to me:

I would love to see more kids add to the intellectual discussions. But I've also seen some of the 'General Chat' topics, and I'm not saying they are all started by younger kids, but I would hope that any topics in this general area of Intellectual Discussion would be just that...an actual discussion on an important and/or intellegent topic. (Hoping there won't be a rampant flow of ridiculous threads now) And I don't mean that disrespectfully towards you, I'm just saying in general, most kids your age are at that awkward stage and actually still have a lot to learn about some of the major topics. But what better way to learn than to participate in a discussion about world topics and/or local topics.

[Dimi]

Originally posted by Crimson Sorrow
I stopped posting in this section intentionally because any time I posted my opinions I was attacked for posting them. And to me that is more of what this section has turned into not a debate or discussion but verbal assults on people that have a different opinion on things or people that "stir the pot" (quoting myself from another thread) by taking the discussion to a different level or trying to get more then just one liners out of people.

I agree with you. That's also one of the contributing factors that killed I.D. discussions. But no matter what, you'll always have someone that's not going to like your opinion.
People are either going to disagree with you in a respectful manner or just downright rip you a new one. And there are people on here that have complete arrogance and think their opinion is more valid then yours.

I'm pretty sure you've seen it before in I.D. discussions. Someone tries to flame-bait someone, they take it and pretty soon it completely derails the purpose of the thread.

Originally posted by Martin
Also I've noticed a general downturn in activity in most of the FF threads in general, which isn't as hard to explain. What more is there to talk about? This site has been going so long it's hard to find new topics to talk about, without eventually bumping some old ones in the process.

I have to agree completely with Martin on this one. Though you do see older members post from time to time. You still see more of the newer members posting in a lot of topics then the veterans do. Personally, I just post whenever I feel like it. Call it lazy. Call it whatever. It's just I've seen many new threads repeating older ones or even people nercoposting in older ones that try to revive a discussion. It's not that I don't care about the forums. But it is hard finding good threads to post in.

But who knows. For the past two days there's been at least four or five threads that have already been made in here that has gotten several posts. I'm sure things will go back up and running again. ^^

[Doc Rocco]

Time for me to make an appearance. Now, I'd love to post in I.D. but I can never seem to find a thread that captures my interest, or I choose not to post because I believe the thread is not worthy of a place in this forum. Like the threesome sex thread. I probably should make more of an effort to try and post in here though.

On the topic of children, I find that a large percentage of kids on TFF are quite intelligent. They are able to argue and converse intelligently, and have a higher understanding of subjects. I'm yet to meet a 13 year old as intelligent as Jules. He's an amazing kid. He has knowledge and wisdom far beyond his years. Some of the younger role players like Xeim display excellent writing which many adults would be jealous of. So what is it that stops these younger members from posting here in I.D.?

I believe the answer is simply because they are kids. Really, the majority of children lack interest in world issues and topics of controversy. They'll have opinions certainly, but those opinions are heavily influenced by their peers and parents. Like in politics. Until they are old enough to vote, children will generally align themselves with whatever party their parents vote for because their parents slander the opposition and praise their party. Similarly, with topics involving ethics and morals, children are heavily influenced by their peers. If a child dislikes swearing but is pressured by classmates to swear, chances are they'll end up swearing. Children are sheep really. We lack the real world experience adults have, and most of us want to fit in so we compromise our beliefs. Adults have experience, and are able to be individuals. Therefore a child's opinions aren't as valid and cannot be argued well.

So how to solve the problem? We need to encourage posts in I.D. obviously. Local and world issues are always good topics for I.D. so long as people's posts are coherent and of a fitting standard. I think people are afraid that their topics might not be worthy of I.D. sometimes. So long as the topics involves higher order thinking skills (Discuss, describe, explain, analyse) I believe it can work here in I.D.. I really should try and make topics in here but I'm often afraid the topic will get shot down. I'll try harder from now on.

[Meier Link]

People are either going to disagree with you in a respectful manner or just downright rip you a new one. And there are people on here that have complete arrogance and think their opinion is more valid then yours.

I'm pretty sure you've seen it before in I.D. discussions. Someone tries to flame-bait someone, they take it and pretty soon it completely derails the purpose of the thread.

Ah yes the old ripping a new one(notated in red), man how I hate that in an intelectual. But then again there is also ignorace in that which is not bliss. Funny fact, when I was a newer memeber and actually partisipated in this section I was in a thread about childeren can't remember what it was about, but I was just trying to get people's opinion on some issues, even threw in a disclaimer stating that my questions where not my opinion, and got jumped out by 3 different memebers, one in turn told me of all people that I should try having a kid before posting in that section because I had no idea what I was talking about and then continued with what I have notated in blue. I remember that person was young too, like 14-15ish.

Originally posted by Doc Rocco

So how to solve the problem? We need to encourage posts in I.D. obviously. Local and world issues are always good topics for I.D. so long as people's posts are coherent and of a fitting standard. I think people are afraid that their topics might not be worthy of I.D. sometimes. So long as the topics involves higher order thinking skills (Discuss, describe, explain, analyse) I believe it can work here in I.D.. I really should try and make topics in here but I'm often afraid the topic will get shot down. I'll try harder from now on.

That is a problem in its self, trying to get peoples attention twards this area is actually a lot harder then it seems, given you guys reobatained my attention and a few others. But it will take some time to actually rebuild this area into glory, but then again it only takes a few "bad" posts to run it back into the ground. Please note the quotations around the word bad, I am not directly quoting anyone, just putting emphasis on the word.

All in all if the I.D. section is to be fully revived it will have to be a group effort from pretty much all of us and any others that we pick up along the way.

[Marceil]

I liked it here about 3 years ago. Until a few people took it upon themselves to attack any comments that differed from their own.
It became pointless to try having a convo intellectual or otherwise.
The religion and politics really killed it. I may find those topics interesting, but is it neccesary to cram one set of beliefs based on popularity?

[Meier Link]

I liked it here about 3 years ago. Until a few people took it upon themselves to attack any comments that differed from their own.
It became pointless to try having a convo intellectual or otherwise.
The religion and politics really killed it. I may find those topics interesting, but is it neccesary to cram one set of beliefs based on popularity?

Ah it would be a great thing to see, intelectual conversations between people who think before they speak and set biases aside. But I still have a hope in this. There are quite a few of us here that can still carry on a convo with out crapping on others believes.

I figured I would bump this because this is an important issue. Even if it rehashing old topics I still beleive there are new opinions that are worth talking about.

When I first stared here we had atleast a few posts in this section here a day and now we are lucky to see post in this section a week. And I know there are still plenty of topics to tackle.

Phantom has actually started a few threads in GC that should of made it into here, and I know the other great minds of TFF could help to make this section more active then what it is.

I beleive that there are alot of topics that need / can be discussed but I think our intectual are limiting their selves. Lets see for one, there is a black president, ccultism and paligomy are at a high, there have been more out breaks of crime as of lately. There are alot of topics that need to be discussed and I honestly can care less now if I get attacked for my opinions, so I challenge those of intelect. Lets make this work, it started and has fizzeled out, we can do this with the aid of the mods and others.

[Taco-Calamitous]

So... I actually read through this whole post, and now I'm wondering if I should still respond. Will it be worth it to say what I have to say now that the discussion has died down? And will what I have to say be appreciated regardless?

More often than not, I answer "no" to those questions in my head. I don't feel like there is a lot of respect going around here on these forums, and I don't see it here in Intellectual Discussion, either. "Why don't you get your head out of your ass?" Is that an acceptable way to address someone in ID who you don't agree with? Apparently it is; I reported a post with a statement quite similar to it some time ago, and nothing was done about it. I don't really feel like talking to people who are going to take that tone with me.

They don't even have to be that obvious, either; they could just deliver a backhanded insult to me, like I've received time and time again in the Music Forum. I used to love the music forum, but the people who think their opinion is above all elses' have taken it down a notch for me. I see those same people post here in ID. Arrogance and looking down your nose at others is not going to earn you a great discussion, unless that person hasn't caught you in the act in the past.

Another part of the problem is that I don't feel educated enough on the subject half the time to give my opinion. I feel like I should be giving a college level essay whenever I'm posting in this forum. Clearly, I don't want to take the effort to do that with every post I make, so I'm not going to post in here a lot. Although it comes to my attention that others probably don't take the time to research like it's a college level essay, so maybe I shouldn't, either. A lot of people just spout stuff without backing their facts up, so maybe I shouldn't worry about it, either. Until someone calls me on it (or gives me a ridiculously long list of questions to answer all at once, where there's pretty much no possible way I'm going to answer it right there and then. I'm looking at you, Sasquatch ) Maybe I should call other people on it, too.

Really, it boils down to past experiences. A lot of times I tried to argue with people who were older, more mature, and/or more knowledgable than me on the subject we were discussing, and I really couldn't hold my own against that, so I have this perception that every time I post in ID, I'm going to make a fool of myself. Or at least half the time. Anyhoo...

Wuv, Yer Mom

[Zardoch]

I think if you take a good look at the educational situation and colleges, it appears to have an affect on people forming unbiased opinions about, well, anything really. Like for example, republicans, Christianity or religion as a whole, and pretty much anything related to the two are highly despised. No longer can I or anyone I know who are either of these two things talk to other people in a mature manner without someone else wanting to spit in their face. It's like an indoctrination where a popular trend takes on a life of its own and a huge body of mass says one thing, and anyone who disagrees with what it says is evil. I mean it's this kind of attitude that stifles any kind of debate like what we're looking for to a point where debate is pretty much pointless.

Nin's a good example of that too, though he was generally calm about everything and no doubt intelligent. He simply had this ego that never questioned anything he believed himself because of a bias against religion. It's this trend that affects younger people, so as a result there are many who have the same kind of attitude. No, I'm not saying all of them are republican/religion-hating zealots, but it's mostly just the attitude of attacking something they don't fully understand. This attitude advocates a peer pressure that has them not wanting to understand at all. All they want is OTHER people to understand how wrong they are.

This also means there is a lack of research on plenty of peoples' parts. Thing is Taco is research isn't reserved with people who have college degrees. Sure, there needs to be some level of knowledge about the subjects that come up, but for those who want to learn and shape the kinds of opinions we'd like to see, that's a good thing. To give people an opportunity to do that is the idea of debating. To debate is not to simply prove someone is wrong or right. It's coming to an understanding that may challenge or strengthen what you believe about facts or your faith. That is what many people don't really understand.

Now, for ID to become a respectable forum again, I think we're going to have to take an initiative on how things are debated. Like for one, I think it'd be a good idea for anyone who is posting a thread here link to sources for any facts they may put on the table. Then anyone replying to them with a counterargument or whatever must do the same thing. Once you have something like that established, then it weeds out all the people who simply want to argue their opinion and not the facts. In fact, it might force those people to actually take a look and do a little research themselves to grasp an understanding on the subject of the thread.

Also, we might want to filter the threads that come through this forum. For any thread that isn't really something someone can discuss like discussions where most people agree with one another, then it can be sent to general chat or something. Either way, the topics that come through here need a core to stimulate intellectual ideas. Of course, this also includes getting a moderator who can keep things civil.

Lastly, I think if others can agree, maybe we should make ID a forum only privileged members can post in? The idea might've come up before, but if we want a greater amount of respect and healthy, civil debate then people need to prove they can debate without resorting to any of the things we generally dislike. We can even sort of host stickied threads that talk about the most controversial discussions and with it those privileged members can post in them and talk.

There's some food for thought.

[Furore]

Like for one, I think it'd be a good idea for anyone who is posting a thread here link to sources for any facts they may put on the table. Then anyone replying to them with a counterargument or whatever must do the same thing.

I can only ever see that being a pain in the ass in all honesty. Look at some debates between me and Sasquatch as an example. We only use things that we know to be more or less accurate, but we end up bringing several dozen points up that would be a pain to find sources for. I'd go nuts trying to find articles completely agreeing with what I've said in some cases, especially where a topic is one with several possible correct answers.

Once you have something like that established, then it weeds out all the people who simply want to argue their opinion and not the facts. In fact, it might force those people to actually take a look and do a little research themselves to grasp an understanding on the subject of the thread.

I thought we were arguing our opinion based on what we thought was more or less fact in the majority of debates? Or maybe that was just what I was doing. Yes, it's good to make sure you know what you're talking about before you start typing, but ultimately most people will show bias to some level towards most things. Differing opinions don't always have a less valid one.

Also, we might want to filter the threads that come through this forum. For any thread that isn't really something someone can discuss like discussions where most people agree with one another, then it can be sent to general chat or something. Either way, the topics that come through here need a core to stimulate intellectual ideas. Of course, this also includes getting a moderator who can keep things civil.

Agreed. But I believe that happens sometimes, don't it? I've seen some topics moved.

Lastly, I think if others can agree, maybe we should make ID a forum only privileged members can post in? The idea might've come up before, but if we want a greater amount of respect and healthy, civil debate then people need to prove they can debate without resorting to any of the things we generally dislike. We can even sort of host stickied threads that talk about the most controversial discussions and with it those privileged members can post in them and talk.

I'm afraid I must also disagree here. That would be censorship of sorts, and even the most annoying or idiotic of people can sometimes drop a gem that excluding them wouldn't allow. Usually if someone says something stupid it's either quickly squished, or just ignored. I think some people should attempt to be more civil (especially when targetting a member solely for a negative response), but in the end people will do as they will and only allowing a small sample of people an opportunity to express themselves in intellectual discussion can be seen as a form of elitism as far as I'm concerned.