What would it take to be Batman?

[Spooniest]

You'd need money for the latest in non-lethal combat gear, a bulletproof cape, a cowl, and basically need to have trained in hand-to-hand combat from your pre-teen years at least.

Any other thoughts? How would YOU be Batman?

Note: Your answer must be more than being able to say "I'M BATMAN" in a gravelly voice.

Aaaaand go!

[Pete]

I think you need the drive that comes from the trauma of losing both of your parents to a petty crime, and the need for a pursuit of justice that comes from it.

Along with that, you would also need an iron will to overcome the physical punishment taken on a daily basis, and the reserve to keep pushing on.
Then you have to throw in the guilt over losing a few Robin's, getting Barbara involved and ultimately crippled.


When you think about it, there's no real reason why Batman keeps doing what he does, other than his quest for justice, and maybe a guilt for letting Gotham continually get terrorized by new villains. Most of those villains really just have severe mental issues, which philantropist Bruce Wayne has yet to solve through funding hospitals and treatment. So double sided guilt.

Basically, you need a lot of cool shit and some deep seated mental issues

[Heartless Angel]

Easier, and more rewarding to be Owlman. Just need to be a greedy power-hungry psychopath.

[Rowan]

When you think about it, there's no real reason why Batman keeps doing what he does, other than his quest for justice, and maybe a guilt for letting Gotham continually get terrorized by new villains. Most of those villains really just have severe mental issues, which philantropist Bruce Wayne has yet to solve through funding hospitals and treatment. So double sided guilt.

Its like hearing liberals saying the 1% of responsible for all the wrong in the world.

[Spooniest]

Rowan.

Politics.

Sucks.

Staaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahp.

Less politics, more Batman

[Taco-Calamitous]

Eh, politics would suck less if people didn't take such extreme stances on things, put partisanship aside, attempted to understand the perspective of the other side, and approached things with nuance. It's not always easy, and it's probably the less attractive choice if you just wanna be lazy/a dick about it, but it is doable. Of course, one's desire to do such a thing in the face of people who constantly take the easy route understandably lessens over time.

Aside from the "mental health issues" aspect that Pete hit on, I suppose the most obvious ones are money + property, high intelligence/critical thinking/problem solving skills, and the ability to master, like, every martial arts in existence.

Then again, why would you want to be Batman? Pete's take probably represents how a lot of people would perceive you, regardless of whether you were responsible for a bunch of Robins dying, etc., or not. You'd probably a really rich member of one of those Super Hero guilds, or whatever they are, and I'm pretty sure the consensus is that those people are super nerdy and lame.

[Rowan]

It was literally stated that Bruce Wayne is the reason for mental health issues in gotham and that he should feel guilty about not only not donating enough (to solve the problem?) but also should feel guilty about fighting them.

This kind of logic is profoundly idiotic and I know Pete wasn't being serious when he said it.

[Taco-Calamitous]

Nah, he didn't say Bruce Wayne was directly responsible for the criminals with mental health issues becoming super villains and terrorizing Gotham. He said that Bruce Wayne probably feels guilt for not finding a philanthropic solution to the mental health problem, which generates those super villains. He maybe suggested that Batman was directly responsible for the fate of a few Robins and Barbara Gordon, however, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Bruce actually responsible, so much as it means that he feels responsible for them.

Pretty much, I think Pete is getting at the idea that there are a lot of reasons to believe that Bruce/Batman has mental health issues. Maybe a personality disorder, too. Of course, I can't really speak for him, but yeah.

[Spooniest]

Well, if he managed to cure all the psychotic supervillains that he keeps having to fight, he'd be out of a job.

BATMAN IS SECRETLY THE BIGGEST SUPERVILLAIN IN GOTHAM, IT'S ALL A CONSPIRASY

(Puts on Tyranosaurus Hives) I KNEW IT

[Pete]

Well I was trying to get at the idea that despite all the charity work and philanthropy that Bruce Wayne was responsible for, it still hasn't really helped to stem the crime and super criminals that keep coming forth. A good deal of the villains clearly do have mental issues, and even looking at Batman's course of action (bringing them to Arkham Asylum), he's still dropping them off in a place where they can presumably get help.

I'm not saying that he's solely responsible for the lack of useful healthcare, but it could be assumed that he feels guilty for not accomplishing more to fix the issue. You could even go as far to say that Batman is trying to do what Bruce Wayne can't. (Wayne can fund all the hospitals he wants, but Batman has to put people there).

It also goes to say that Wayne isn't the sole person footing the bill for everything. He's always shown partnering with various people and groups to do beneficial things for Gotham. It just happens that usually these projects go sideways. Gotham is essentially the city of "well this is why we can't have nice things".

I'd also like to clarify that I don't think Wayne is guilty of failing to cure all of the mental illness, I just think he probably feels guilty in that he hasn't accomplished more of it. You never really see any of his villains become productive members of society. If they do it's usually short lived or a cover for other crimes.

Depending on who writes the stories, you see a lot more angst, darkness and regret, or you see a lot more of the philanthropy gone wrong.

[Rowan]

Well I was trying to get at the idea that despite all the charity work and philanthropy that Bruce Wayne was responsible for, it still hasn't really helped to stem the crime and super criminals that keep coming forth. A good deal of the villains clearly do have mental issues, and even looking at Batman's course of action (bringing them to Arkham Asylum), he's still dropping them off in a place where they can presumably get help.

I'm not saying that he's solely responsible for the lack of useful healthcare, but it could be assumed that he feels guilty for not accomplishing more to fix the issue. You could even go as far to say that Batman is trying to do what Bruce Wayne can't. (Wayne can fund all the hospitals he wants, but Batman has to put people there).

It also goes to say that Wayne isn't the sole person footing the bill for everything. He's always shown partnering with various people and groups to do beneficial things for Gotham. It just happens that usually these projects go sideways. Gotham is essentially the city of "well this is why we can't have nice things".

I'd also like to clarify that I don't think Wayne is guilty of failing to cure all of the mental illness, I just think he probably feels guilty in that he hasn't accomplished more of it. You never really see any of his villains become productive members of society. If they do it's usually short lived or a cover for other crimes.

Depending on who writes the stories, you see a lot more angst, darkness and regret, or you see a lot more of the philanthropy gone wrong.

Good points. Sorry i misunderstood

[Heartless Angel]

Oh, Batman absolutely has some sort of mental disorder. The Joker's joke at the end of The Killing Joke (How many times can I use the word 'joke' in one sentence?) illustrates this rather nicely.

"See, there were these two guys in a lunatic asylum… and one night, one night they decide they don’t like living in an asylum any more. They decide they’re going to escape! So, like, they get up onto the roof, and there, just across this narrow gap, they see the rooftops of the town, stretching away in the moon light… stretching away to freedom. Now, the first guy, he jumps right across with no problem. But his friend, his friend didn’t dare make the leap. Y’see… Y’see, he’s afraid of falling. So then, the first guy has an idea… He says 'Hey! I have my flashlight with me! I’ll shine it across the gap between the buildings. You can walk along the beam and join me!' B-but the second guy just shakes his head. He suh-says… He says 'Wh-what do you think I am? Crazy? You’d turn it off when I was half way across!'".

The joke is a sort of allegory to their lives. The bridge of light is a metaphor for redemption, goodness, justice, the ability to change the world with his 'light'. The character in this joke which represents the Joker doesn't turn down this offer because he doesn't think it's possible, but because he can't believe Bruce would really help him. The difference between the two isn't that one believes in good and the other doesn't, but that Batman believes in humanity and Joker doesn't. But one key aspect of this allegory that often goes unmentioned is that fact that they're BOTH insane for believing the bridge of light would work in the first place. Joker's insanity is obvious, but Batman's is a bit more subtle. Batman lives in a state of constant denial. He denies that the world is beyond fixing, that some people can't be redeemed, and most importantly, that he's just a man, and that his plan to save the world by beating up lowlifes and putting them back into the same prisons and asylums they keep walking out of is in itself crazy. He can't accept reality, because reality destroyed him. In more ways than most people realize. A dialogue from Batman Beyond tells the story better than I could. Prior to this, a villain who manipulated sound, and posed as a voice in Bruce's head, trying to convince him to kill himself.

Terry: Tell me something - why were you so sure those voices weren't coming from you?

Bruce: Well, first, I know I'm not psychotic.

Terry: I hope your other reason is more convincing.

Bruce: Second, the voice kept calling me "Bruce." In my mind, that's not what I call myself.

Terry: What do you call yourself? [Bruce just looks at him for a moment] Oh, yeah. I suppose you would. [Batman voice] But that's my name now.

Bruce: Tell that to my subconscious.

In all the ways that matter, Bruce Wayne died alongside his parents in the alley. He can't even accept that he is Bruce Wayne anymore, and considers that name a disguise for the new persona he created to replace him. It's not just that he considers his role as Batman more important than his role as a wealthy businessman, but that he considers Batman to be his true identity, and Bruce Wayne to be the mask he wears to protect it.

[Taco-Calamitous]

Thanks for that explanation of the Joker's joke. I remember that when I read it, I didn't quite get it, heh. I remember that the Joker told it and they both laughed, and I just thought it was a bit of a weird ending, given everything that had come before in that story. I remember some people also claiming that Batman killed the Joker then, because he finally decided he couldn't be saved. I guess that take is famous enough to have been rebutted in this article.

I kinda wonder, though, if the author was really saying that Batman is crazy for believing in redemption, or if that was just written as the Joker having one last way to get into Batman's head before the end of the story. I don't know that that would undermine the idea that Batman has a mental disorder, given that he refers to himself in his head as "Batman," in that Batman Beyond story that you mention. I just don't know that he's as crazy as the Joker makes him out to be from that joke. Referring to himself as "Batman" in his head, and acting as "the Batman," seem to be a coping mechanism for the fucked up world he lives in. Characters like Mr. Freeze and Two-Face could be examples of characters that could have been like Batman, but went too far in the direction of revenge, or just not giving a fuck anymore.

[Pete]

Also, don't forget the Bat-nipples

[Heartless Angel]

It's not that believing in redemption is crazy. More specifically, Batman is crazy for believing that redemption is something he has the power to offer. He's offering to try to help fix the Joker, a broken man, when he himself is just as broken. And that is why Batman laughed. Because for that brief moment, he recognized it himself. Another interesting detail that adds even more depth to the joke, are the final 3 panels on that page. Two of them show a beam of light reflected in the water on the ground, and the final panel shows the light going off. My interpretation of this is that this is the moment Batman acknowledges that him offering redemption really is crazy. He understand the meaning behind the joke, and he turns off his 'flashlight', accepting their fates.

[Spooniest]

When you interpret art, be careful not to append your personal interpretation to the art as 'the only one that is correct.'

For all practical intents and purposes, that isn't the way art is. The interpretation and the art itself exist separately. One person's take on it is as valid as another's, presuming comparable levels of education, experience, and seriousness about their interpreting.

I really don't like the idea of 'canon' in works of art in the first place, at any rate. Religious fervor is kind of a swarm of murders in a can.

My take on this Killing Joke business (I've never read it thought I am familiar with the story) is that Joker may be communicating something sane, and real, to Batman in that moment, in what alcoholics refer to as a 'moment of clarity.' He's saying "I have lost all faith in humanity or goodness of any kind. I am beyond help." Batman understands this, and the reason he is laughing is that he realizes that this awful, vicious cold blooded killer basically is an utter coward at heart, who doesn't possess the courage or faith that was gifted to a common insect. Batman is laughing with him out of pity for him, which makes him laugh harder, because he realizes that, despite his obvious rage over what Joker has done since the beginning of the book, he is indeed a pitiable man.

Wouldn't be surprised if Bruce's therapist Miss Leslie got a call for an appointment the next day, really.