That the US should practise what it preaches

[Alpha]

Should there be a mosque built, two blocks from the site of the 9/11 attacks?

That's a question dividing America.

I'm not going to explain it myself. It's not hard to find a news website. I'll just go straight to opinion.

The whole furore seems like a lynch mob. Mark Williams, of the (radical) Right-wing Tea Party movement, wrote that the mosque would become a place "for the worship of the terrorists' monkey-god." Others deliberately confuse the terrorists with all Muslims. For instance, former Republican Speaker of the House, Newt Gingrich, stated in an interview that "Nazis don't have the right to put up a sign next to the Holocaust Museum in Washington." He should know better: he would never be unreasonable enough to say that all Germans were or are Nazis. However, he seems happy to imply that all Muslims are terrorists. Does this mean that all Catholics -- because of the IRA -- are terrorists?

Obama has drawn flak for metaphorically stepping out on the street to confront the lynch mob and state that the mosque should be allowed -- after all, the freedom to practice one's religion is enshrined in the US Constitution, as well as other (some would say more important) documents, such as the UDHR.

What is important is that Islam did not attack America on that day. A small group of radical religious extremists (particular religion = somewhat irrelevant), who were reacting primarily (IMO) to the US presence in Saudi Arabia, did. Innocent Muslim US citizens died in the 9/11 attacks. Muslims were outraged just as much as anybody else. Islam is a peaceful religion, and killing others -- and suicide -- is a sin.

Most, if not all, religions have atrocities attributed to them. The same could be said of most ideologies.

In terms of the actual structure, it is a proposed $100 million Islamic community centre, complete with mosque. It is also going to be used -- appropriately post-9/11 -- as a centre for inter-faith dialogue, to combat misunderstandings on both sides. (As an aside, today I read that 20% of US citizens think that Obama is a Muslim.)

There are already two mosques within a certain distance of Ground Zero (I forget how far, exactly).

Finally, Newt Gingrich has also stated that there should be no mosque next Ground Zero "so long as there are no churches or synagogues in Saudi Arabia." What a stupid thing to say. It is precisely the US's (theoretical) willingness to tolerate difference that distinguishes it from theocratic states which are consistently criticised, such as Iran and Saudi Arabia. Gingrich wants to make America like that? Don't stoop to that level. Uphold the freedom to religion: support the mosque.

[Block]

Free speech goddamnit.

[che]

Gingrich compared the Muslim religion to "Nazi's" recently when referring to this. How these guys get so many followers and listeners is beyond me. Does anyone take the time to think for themselves anymore, especially in the US? I think people are too worried about their party affiliation and allegiance to it rather on true issues.

"What do you call two Iraqi guys flying a plane?"

"Pilots. Don't be racist."

Sad that that joke stumps a lot of people. What this boils down to is racism and ignorance, and if you're either of those then you probably shouldn't speak in public on issues. Of course if you were either of those you wouldn't have the self-awareness to shut your mouth, as we're seeing here now.

It makes me sad that in 2010 this is even an issue that is being discussed. Yeah, we've really come a long way.

[Joe]

The mosque should obviously be allowed. As you said, it's precisely that we allow free expression, even when we may not agree with the ideology, that makes this country great.

Not to mention that the blueprints for the community center also include a 9/11 Memorial.

[Clint]

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. It's the very first part of the first amendment. Of course the mosque should be built, because anybody prohibiting it's construction, especially if it comes from state or federal legislation, is in violation of constitutional infringement.

Besides, the Muslim religion has never attacked America. Thinking so is a blatant logical fallacy. A radical terrorist organization attacked America. The fact that these radicals just so happened to be Muslim means nothing. If the terrorists were urban white Christians, nobody would have a problem with a catholic church being built two blocks away.

[Block]

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. It's the very first part of the first amendment. Of course the mosque should be built, because anybody prohibiting it's construction, especially if it comes from state or federal legislation, is in violation of constitutional infringement.

Why don't you say that shit in Lawyer speak next time?

[Jin]

Mark Williams, of the (radical) Right-wing Tea Party movement, wrote that the mosque would become a place "for the worship of the terrorists' monkey-god." Others deliberately confuse the terrorists with all Muslims.

Hanuman the Monkey God?



Seems more like they're confusing terrorists with all Hindus.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

But as Stephen Colbert points out, "'Congress shall make no law'...an executive order perhaps?"


Why'd you choose General Chat for this, Alpha?

[che]

Hanuman the Monkey God?



Seems more like they're confusing terrorists with all Hindus.




But as Stephen Colbert points out, "'Congress shall make no law'...an executive order perhaps?"


Why'd you choose General Chat for this, Alpha?

Because while you can obviously still make intelligent discussion on the matter, it is not required to understand or debate the issue. And shouldn't be.

[Jin]

Alpha! When did you change your username?

[Alpha]

I don't think it has to change the nature of the discussion.

And because chad told me to <3

EDIT: On second thought, I don't mind if this is moved to ID.

[Block]

Because while you can obviously still make intelligent discussion on the matter, it is not required to understand or debate the issue. And shouldn't be.

New General Chat description anyone?

[Josh_R]

I was under the impression that this was a land that offered freedom of religion. So to try an deny the muslims their right to build a Mosque is complete bullshit.

Besides, the Muslim religion has never attacked America. Thinking so is a blatant logical fallacy. A radical terrorist organization attacked America. The fact that these radicals just so happened to be Muslim means nothing. If the terrorists were urban white Christians, nobody would have a problem with a catholic church being built two blocks away.

Exactly. I am tired of hearing about how all those damn Muslims are responsible for 9/11. Not all muslims are responsible. It isn't like they had a f*cking meeting and every Muslim voted for it.

[Tiffany]

I think this whole thing is utterly ridiculous. For the many reasons that are already stated. I can't even fathom WHY this is an issue?

[Aerif]

I don't really claim to know a lot about American politics (though I am more clued in than the average Scot), and because of that I don't know whether or not NBC is traditionally politically slanted, so if this video's source offends you I apologise, I just took it from 'Least I could Do'.

Close to my feelings on the mosque.

If everything said in that story is correct, it seems like the rest of the world's media is spinning the story in any way they see fit. Saying that the 'mosque' will be two blocks away from Ground Zero is very generous.

I can totally understand why people would be upset about it though, even though Al-Queda claimed to have been responsible for the attacks, there's not really any definitive proof, thus people tend to blame Islamic extremists more than a terrorist group. And since the Western world has always been wary of muslims, you can't blame people for getting offended by the construction of basically anything associated with Islam so near to a place that was destroyed by people who interpreted Islam in such a radical way.

I sympathise with the victims, but I think they need to understand that the people who destroyed the World Trade Centre are not the same people who will be praying in the community centre.


Also side note:

"for the worship of the terrorists' monkey-god."

If Muslims accept the Jewish prophets, and Jesus as a prophet, then surely Allah = Christian God = Jewish God?

[Block]

If Muslims accept the Jewish prophets, and Jesus as a prophet, then surely Allah = Christian God = Jewish God?

Allah directly translates to the English word God. So yes, in a way what you say there is true.

[Unknown Entity]

That's funny, just the other night I was arguing about this...

The mosque should be allowed to be built, and I don't understand why people are so upset about it. Approximately 23% of the worlds population are followers of Islam, and it's completely ridiculous to assume all of them are extremists/terrorists. A small minority worldwide support terrorism.

Muslims have the right to be able to practise their religious beliefs in the same way Christians (for example) get to. If the people against it could see it from the eyes of the Muslim community, I bet they'd understand how it's not so fair - being labeled as a terrorist because people with the same beliefs as you want to cause pain and destruction is bullshit.

[Rhaps]

There isn't a whole lot to add to this, most of my views have been said. Plus, isn't the mosque planned for like a few blocks away? Calm down guys lol
Why does America get to police the world and establish their reign and beliefs, much like the old English empire, but if some other belief so much as thinks about intruding, we flip out?
I want to see this mosque built. It would serve as an amazing example of what the world needs to do- ignore past instances and biases and lies from the media and be able to share beliefs in a facilitated fashion as the people wish.

*Note, I wonder who voted no but was too pansy to post >.> they may have had something good to say. . . or maybe just blather about lies. I dono

[Block]

Why does America get to police the world and establish their reign and beliefs, much like the old English empire, but if some other belief so much as thinks about intruding, we flip out?

Hypocrisy. The back bone of America.

[Alpha]

*Note, I wonder who voted no but was too pansy to post >.> they may have had something good to say. . . or maybe just blather about lies. I dono

I would also like to know. But there's a reason I did not make it a public poll.

I'm actually surprised at this result. My newspaper said that a poll indicated 70% of Americans were against the construction. Good work guys, way to show 'em.

Also, @Aerif. Christian god = Jewish god = Muslim god. They're the Abrahamic religions, with the same deity and many similar beliefs and historical persons. Jesus is an Islamic prophet (according to the Muslims, of course), and he features in the Qur'an, along with Mary.

Which only serves to make the negative reaction seem more ridiculous.

[Block]

Jesus is an Islamic prophet (according to the Muslims, of course), and he features in the Qur'an, along with Mary.

He also makes appearances in numerous West Asian religions (such as Buddhism) as a prophet of the West teaching the secrets to a well balanced life. Which I think is pretty cool.

[Jin]

Why does America get to police the world and establish their reign and beliefs, much like the old English empire, but if some other belief so much as thinks about intruding, we flip out?

Because they can.

It kind of comes with being a superpower.

[Rhaps]

Because they can.

It kind of comes with being a superpower.

But shouldn't people have learned by now if you abuse having a super power eventually your empire and reign will crumble?

[Jin]

Everything crumbles.

The attempt is to keep it going as long as possible.

[Block]

Everything crumbles.

The attempt is to keep it going as long as possible.

well said.

[Halie]

*Note, I wonder who voted no but was too pansy to post >.> they may have had something good to say. . . or maybe just blather about lies. I dono

Or perhaps they just couldn't be arsed...?

Anyhoo. That person wasn't me, but I also voted no because personally I'm not a religious person, and I don't agree with it. And I also think it's pointless if there are already two mosques nearby. I don't claim to know a lot about America's politics as I'm from Wales, so I guess this doesn't really concern me. But eh, just my opinion.

[Josh_R]

but I also voted no because personally I'm not a religious person, and I don't agree with it. And I also think it's pointless if there are already two mosques nearby..

It is true that they're are two mosques there already, but look at the number ofmuslims livng there. It far outweighs the number of mosques. If this was a catholic chucrch that was being built in the U.S. there wouldn't even be any issue here.

[Halie]

It is true that they're are two mosques there already, but look at the number ofmuslims livng there. It far outweighs the number of mosques. If this was a catholic chucrch that was being built in the U.S. there wouldn't even be any issue here.

Yeah, that's true, but if this was a poll for a Catholic/Christian church to be built then I'd also vote no. I mean, how many of them are in the world? That would be pointless, too.

[Zargabaath]

If this was a catholic chucrch that was being built in the U.S. there wouldn't even be any issue here.

While not a Catholic church, there was a Greek Orthodox Church that was destroyed by the 9/11 attacks; the congregation has been trying to rebuild for 8 years but has not been successful. That Greek Orthodox Church was actually there before the attacks and its congregation is currently unable to build in the church's original location or nearby.

As to the Muslim Center that will include a mosque - should we add a memorial, at Pearl Harbor, for the Japanese soldiers that died there? Not all Muslims attacked us, but Muslim extremists did, and had been for years, and to allow a Muslim Center/mosque in the shadow of the attacks is breaking a thermometer on the wounds of the victims. It's just in bad taste; nobody has a problem with them worshiping, their problem is with where they worship. Moving the center a few more blocks away is not a big deal.

And before any Muslim Center be built in that area (if it is), that Orthodox Church should be built before it since it was there before the attacks - not that I'm pro-Christian or anything, religion is all the same to me.

[Alpha]

What are the reasons for this Orthodox church reconstruction not being successful? Does it just come down to money? I mean, there aren't many practitioners of Greek Orthodox Christianity. I personally know 20+ Muslims, and only one Greek Orthodox Christian.

EDIT: and Mr Pillow explains the reason for the enquiry, below. Ka pai.

[Block]

The reasons as to why they have not rebuilt could shed some light on the situation. Poor zoning laws? No funds? Maybe they just really pissed someone off? Whatever the reason I don't think that just because they haven't been rebuilt doesn't mean that the Muslim Center should never be built. Unless, of course, the Muslim Center is trying to build on the site of this old Greek Orthodox Christian Church, and the Church still owns the land... then obviously the center shouldn't go up there at that location.