Lay down your arms...

[Unknown Entity]

BBC NEWS | England | London | Hundreds march for stabbed youth

How much more blood needs to be spilled in the world, before stupid, gun and knife weilding teens concentrate more on their future, than on protecting Post Codes, killing people in petty arugments, tormenting the old, and damn right ****king the world up?

40-50 teens where killed last year, and another (I think the stats were) 37 this year so far have died because of this. Its sick. What? Are you gonna kill someone cos they were playing in "your" swing park? Pfft! Its a ****ing public area you dipsh*t! Gonna kill someone in E8 because they are from N1? E8 and N1 are postal areas, so postmen know where to deliver letters you ass wipe! JEESE!

What could bring someone to take a life? The thought of their blood on your hands... That life in your head?

Seriously, why do people feel the need to carry knifes? If NO ONE carried a knife, why would you still need a knife? Whats wrong with using your fists? Oh no, cos fists take longer in taking away a life? Its this that makes me angry... Parents not being able to control their kids, and allowing the street to bring them up - like its the best way...

What are your thoughts about this?

[Anomaly]

Take away guns and people will kill you with knives. Take away knives and they'll use forks. Take away forks and they'll damn well use bricks.

It doesn't bother me really. Natural selection never does. It's cruel, but the kind of people that are usually involved in this violence are exactly the kind of people that do not need to be a part of society. Be it elimination through death or through going to jail for being the cause of anothers death, we should be if not happy, then relieved by these numbers. We should keep them in mind as a reminder to safe-guard our own children.

[addrew]

Take away guns and people will kill you with knives. Take away knives and they'll use forks. Take away forks and they'll damn well use bricks.

It doesn't bother me really. Natural selection never does. It's cruel, but the kind of people that are usually involved in this violence are exactly the kind of people that do not need to be a part of society. Be it elimination through death or through going to jail for being the cause of anothers death, we should be if not happy, then relieved by these numbers. We should keep them in mind as a reminder to safe-guard our own children.

Sorry but we should be happy or releived that members of the same race as us have died? To me that seems pretty rong. Only should someone be killed if they are sentanced for death for very serious offensies. Things like killing lots of people. But why should we be releived or happy that someones family have lost there brother or son, or there father or mother or sister. The fact that that makes you happy or releived is dam right rong if you ask me.

And if you take away guns they kill with knoves, and if you take away knives they kill with forks?. Sorry but thats not true. What we should do is teach people just what knives can do. We need to give tougher sentances to teens. At the moment teens get a lower penalty then men do for carrying fire arms or knives. If our nation is turning into a nation of stabbing and shooting then why dont we treat men and teens the same way, after all isnt that what most teens want at the end of the day? To be treated like adults.

But the thing which i think mainly increases stabbings and shootings is our goverment. And its 'Nanny Nation' idea it seems to have stuck in its heads. Every year rules get stricter. 20 years ago you could go pot holing at school with virtualy no films to fill in. Nowa days you have to fill in forms detailing exactly every single way you could be injured or killed. This is what makes our teens rebeilious. What they can do freely is getting smaller and tighter and the goverment thinks its becuase were not being strict enough.

[Unknown Entity]

Take away guns and people will kill you with knives. Take away knives and they'll use forks. Take away forks and they'll damn well use bricks.

It doesn't bother me really. Natural selection never does. It's cruel, but the kind of people that are usually involved in this violence are exactly the kind of people that do not need to be a part of society. Be it elimination through death or through going to jail for being the cause of anothers death, we should be if not happy, then relieved by these numbers. We should keep them in mind as a reminder to safe-guard our own children.

You will change you're mind when while on the way home from school/work/shop one day, you see some one lying on their front with 4 inch long, 1/2 an inch deep gash's down their back. I've seen it, and when you are put in a possition to either run from a gang that is either watching your every move around their victim, or stay to put presure on the bleeding and ring an ambulance, all you can think about is saving this persons life. I wasn't the one on my hands and knees with this guy, but I was the weak one crying, and I didn't even know that guy.

Oh, and next time a guy who has been stabbed multiple times runs through the block of flats you live in, dripping blood everywhere, and having police knock on your door asking questions, I'm sure you will have a different view.

Yes, this keeps numbers down, but these are kids we are talking about. Kids that have no morals who have had the ****ing street bring them up. They end up having under-age sex which results in an under-age pregnancy, which results in a child (who'd have known?), who's parents don't know morals themselves. Then the cycle repeats with this kid on the streets, blah blah...

It being turned into a joke! I've this mobile phone wallpaper which says: "Don't hit kids. No. Seriously. They have guns now." To be fair, it was funny when I first saw it, but know this has gone beyond a stupid joke. Lives are in the balance here, and its stupid kids with guns and knives that are the pivert.

[InfiniteRealms]

The problem is that the gangster style of life is becoming ever more 'cool', so more people are trying to seem like a 'gangtsa', and then they decide that their gang needs a home, so they now must 'own' this area, and if any other gang comes in then its a violation of some kind of twisted code of honour, and needs to be dealt with - or killed, as we know it.

Its disgusting, sick and wrong, but its what society is turning into.

[winterborn86]

Things are getting outta hand with all these gang related attacks, i hear about it almost every other week in newspapers and on the news, and i think infirniterealms is quite right in sayin that 'gangster style' is becoming a cool thing to be with teens, but its not at all.

I hate the way the world has become but unfortunatly theres not much we can do, except raise our kids the best we can in this violent crap hole of a world and hope they dont turn the way youngsters are today.

[Dimi]

Originally posted by InfiniteRuins
The problem is that the gangster style of life is becoming ever more 'cool', so more people are trying to seem like a 'gangtsa', and then they decide that their gang needs a home, so they now must 'own' this area, and if any other gang comes in then its a violation of some kind of twisted code of honour, and needs to be dealt with - or killed, as we know it.

I have to disagree with you on this. Not everyone that's a gangster is out to kill people so they can be "cool". That's an ignorant statement you made.

Originally posted by addrew
And if you take away guns they kill with knoves, and if you take away knives they kill with forks?. Sorry but thats not true. What we should do is teach people just what knives can do. We need to give tougher sentances to teens. At the moment teens get a lower penalty then men do for carrying fire arms or knives. If our nation is turning into a nation of stabbing and shooting then why dont we treat men and teens the same way, after all isnt that what most teens want at the end of the day? To be treated like adults.

I have to disagree with you as well. It's purely common sense to know it's wrong to kill someone. I agree though that the punishments for teenagers that commit murder should be taken more serious.

And BTW, I clicked that link and where does it say that's it a gang-related murder? I just don't think that some of you guys should go out and generalizing people a certain way. Anyone is possible of committing the same kind of crime. So it's not just a certain group of people.

[InfiniteRealms]

I have to disagree with you on this. Not everyone that's a gangster is out to kill people so they can be "cool". That's an ignorant statement you made.

I was talking out of personal experience in my area, Im sorry about making it seem like a definitin of everyone, i did not mean that, and i understand that.

What I was saying is the case of this in the slightly more rural towns or cities. Its not often anyone is seriously attacked, but the kids around here seem to take living like that as being cool.

Someone i know has had a death threat put through his front door because of this. Another was attacked, not with weapons fortunatly, because he moved someones PE kit in the changing rooms slightly

[Furore]

Take away bricks, and people will harden the **** up and kill eachother with a punch or two to the head. YAY!

This is why I value a person's ability to fight. If you can't defend yourself from those who wish you harm, then what are you gonna do when you're dragged into things? It might not happen to everyone, but chances are it might in today's day and age.

As for why people get so hostile to others for seemingly no reason, it's really any number of reasons. They might be poor or want drug money and see you as having some money or pawnable items, they might be mentally handicapped and screwed over by the health system... Or they could just be 'gangsta' wannabes wanting to make themselves feel like real men. There's a ton of reasons.

There are some real bag eggs out there in some places. You've either gotta be very careful, good at running and alert to your surroundings, or just know how to defend yourself.

[Yuki-onna]

It's not the tool that kills people, it's the people that kill the people. Why? Sometimes there is no why. 99% of the time, however, it's due to poor parenting by parents, and the governments. Parents let their kids do whatever they want, the government does nothing to stop them either.

Why are these kids maiming and killing? Why resort to violence? Why do they feel they need to live like this? Are they being raised in bad environments? Are they not stimulated into intelligence, morals and values, taught respect for others and how to live a decent life?

It would seem obvious that they're not. Kids, teenagers, are impressionable, irrational, and sometimes extremely hard to contain. We've all been there or are going through that. Everyone needs discipline. If you don't get it, they turn to other things. Drugs. Sex. Violence. I blame society. No one is taking the responsibility for their children in this day. I'm ashamed of the human race, honestly.

[Koda]

How can you blame the government for poor parenting as you say??? Since when did the government tell anyone how to raise their children? They don't hand out instruction pamplets. And children aren't born with instructions either. And yes some parents let their children run as they please. But not all. And unless YOU have raised a child, you have no idea what it's like to be on the other side of the coin. When a child reaches a certain age, THEY decide in their own mind what they are and aren't going to do. I'm sure you can relate to that. Their upbringing doesn't always curve the way that they go.

Good questions. But being taught differently doesn't always mean your children will be the young adults that we hope them to be. Being taught respect doesn't mean they are going to give it. Bad enviroments don't mean they will turn out to be bad kids either. And you can teach your child/children morals, values, and stimulate their brains from birth, but unless THEY choose to live by those teachings, you as a parent can't control what they do as they get older.

Discipline doesn't always help. Teenagers are imprssionable, irrational, and hard to contain. Even when they are beyond their teen years they are impossible to get through to. Some grow to be liars, cheats, thieves, drunks, hookers, killers, etc. But blaming the parents, some yes, but not completely. As a parent, I know how hard it is to get through to kids. Thankfully I do have a good kid, sure there were problems here and there, but nothing serious. Sometimes steering a child in the right direction just can't be done, especially when they give you the....it's my life and I'll do as I please.. The only thing we can do is hope and pray that our teachings get through and our children grow into responsible teens and adults. Sadly enough, that doesn't always happen.

Here in the States, there are children that are tried as adults in the courts for murder. And some never see the outside of a prison again in their lives. Others however are thrown back into a life of crime. That is their choice. Life is tough sometimes, but we all have to be willing to make the right choices and go down the right paths.

I agree that the crime rate among the younger generation is out of control. Especially the gang situation in our country. And there really is no certain solution. If there were, the gang situation would have been stopped back in the 70's. Sadly, the world just continues to spiral downhill, and until we all start making better choices for ourselves it will continue to do so.

[KeyranSolo]

No matter how many times weapons of murder are taken away from young offenders, no matter how many young offenders are arrested and locked up, they'll ALWAYS be someone else there to take there place, and so fourth.

It is disgusting how many lives are taken so easily, when they could've easily been avoided, and yes you are right, the arguments these teens have are so pathetic, and it's usually over something so minor, it's unbelievable. Living in the UK myself, I have seen what these offenders get up to, nothing like stabbing or anything, but the way they act is horrible, an elderly man died after having a heart attack due to offenders "scaring" him. It's sickening, and I don't think it's going away.

[Unknown Entity]

Ok... This thread wasn't supposed to be just about gang violence - ANYONE can pick a knife and kill someone. ANYONE can buy a gun and pull the trigger. EVERYONE is capable of taking a life, and its this what sickens me. What could make someone take a life?

Yeah, it could be because of gang culture, mental insability, bad parenting, bad schooling, or because of drugs and booze. It could be anthing! There are somethings people need in this world, and murder isn't one of these things. Wouldn't it be nice to turn the news on one day, and see something nice on? Like maybe someone who saved a family from a fire, or your best friend or... you name it!

Oh and Silver is right about seeing people fight with their fists. To me fighting with a weapon shows just how weak you are.

[addrew]

Ok... This thread wasn't supposed to be just about gang violence - ANYONE can pick a knife and kill someone. ANYONE can buy a gun and pull the trigger. EVERYONE is capable of taking a life, and its this what sickens me. What could make someone take a life?

You say everyone is capeable of taking a life, i dont think i could unless it was by accident like i dropped a brcik on someones head. It would just be horrible to know that you took someones life away, thats why im kinda half pacifist. Altho ym veiws pn pacifism are differnt for what the threads about so ill stop there.

[Sinister]

Living in the two largest cities in KY(which really is nothing to brag about), one has to take protection. And sometimes, being able to fight doesn't mean shit when people can pack guns and knives. There are shootings all the time in Louisville. No one hears about it because there aren't that many reporters in the world.

But I don't think that gun culture has much to do with it. I think it's just a cesspool of moral degradation. Until they make me give it up, I have a .50 cal S&W model 500 hunter, fetching nickel chrome with a sling. Why do I have it? Because of two reasons:

1=I know that I am not a threat to society.
2=I know that as long as guns are available, every criminal in either of these two cities will have one.

So yea, unless some major things change...I am packing a big gun.

Not that I'm scared, because I'm not, but more because I've heard more than enough to justify allowing myself and mine this single last-resort protection. It stays locked in a drawer in one of my rooms and I've shot it only five times. I don't take it out of my house unless I have a very very good reason, which I can't think of one right at this moment. It's use is mainly for bluff(in case a break-in) seeing that I'm not sure I could gun someone down unless I had no other choice.

-Sin

[Furore]

Oh and Silver is right about seeing people fight with their fists. To me fighting with a weapon shows just how weak you are.

Yes, people who fight offensively with weapons are pussies. But, that wasn't the point I was making with that sentence in my last post. Basically, if someone does have their weapons taken away they'll find something else to kill with. Fists can kill with a decent punch or two to the temples, sliding up towards the nose or even back of head...

Things were not always this way, and it's not all gangster crap either.

Maybe not, but they do add to the problem and are behind a ton of it. And also other people such as some of the 'chavs' I believe Storm called them. A lot of it is in the attitude. There's less respect for life, and more respect for things such as respect, regardless of how it's accomplished. And as I mentioned in my last post:

As for why people get so hostile to others for seemingly no reason, it's really any number of reasons. They might be poor or want drug money and see you as having some money or pawnable items, they might be mentally handicapped and screwed over by the health system... Or they could just be 'gangsta' wannabes wanting to make themselves feel like real men. There's a ton of reasons.

There are a lot of reasons, none of which everyone would feel are justifiable. But just because most people can't justify them, doesn't mean everyone won't...

However, what is the common denominator in the Kinsella case and the one I served on? Alcohol.

For the love of all that is alcoholic, please don't link alcohol to stabbings. It may have been a factor, sure, but in both cases there had to be more to it. Alcohol only lowers a person's inhibitions. And any demons it creates had that side hidden within them.

I agree with the last sentiments though.
R.I.P Ben, 16's way too young...

[Govinda]

For the love of all that is alcoholic, please don't link alcohol to stabbings. It may have been a factor, sure, but in both cases there had to be more to it. Alcohol only lowers a person's inhibitions. And any demons it creates had that side hidden within them.

I can only think of one response to this. ARE YOU FVCKING KIDDING ME?

That is one of the most absurd assertions I've ever seen. Do you not know the damage booze does? It can shake that fine line between killing and not killing; it can be the straw that breaks the camel's back. Most all knife deaths are alcohol related and it is by no means the booze alone that causes the behaviour, but it is often a vital factor. I mean, near my town, there was an indicent where three young men were hospitalised - in a drunken fight. Young men will feel all the courage they need to to pull out a knife and actually use it if they've got a little booze in them, and their drunken friends behind them.

New Year's before last, my street got on TV when a soldier was murdered, stabbed, in a drunken fight that involved upwards of ten people. This guy was never violent, everyone said he was the last person you'd expect to be in a fight like that - but his brother was mental on the drink, and he went in to get him away, and was killed in the process.

Alcohol is hugely related to violence in most all forms, especially in the UK, where we don't have too many guns. We're a nation of alcoholics. You'd probably say that was a good thing, no? Yeah, it's great when the neds get On The Wine Man and ****ing knife one another. My boyfriend was at his local for a few pints, some pool, and had gone out for a smoke; there he saw six men attacking one man because the man in question had glanced at someone's girlfriend. Said girlfriend was nowhere to be seen. Sorry if this was a bit long. You enflamed me.

[Zardoch]

I'd say one of the biggest reasons crap like this happens is teenage boys. These kids are too immature to think for themselves and have so much pride that if ANYONE steps on it, they'll kill you just for that. It's the same pride "gangsta's" often have and has been associated within these teenager's lives probably through gang culture influence. Anyone remember American History X? The black kid got his pride challenged and killed the other teenager because of it. That's all it comes down to it when these same punks decide to kill someone. Either they have been raised wrong or have so much pride that they'll do anything to protect it, even killing someone. You take away that pride and they're pretty normal.

Taking away weapons won't solve the problem. Showing these kids the hell they'll go through if they decide to live such a life might or at least throwing them into a prison considering they're a teenager and be easy picking for the older prisoners. Of course, putting someone in prison might not do much because I honestly believe prison has just become a place of putting people in "time-out" until they decide to play nice. As such, it might be better to just throw them into the military, lol. Either way, they need to learn how to grow the **** up and the only way these spoiled brats are going to learn is by some harsh form of punishment.

[Unknown Entity]

Of course, putting someone in prison might not do much because I honestly believe prison has just become a place of putting people in "time-out" until they decide to play nice. As such, it might be better to just throw them into the military, lol.

I totally agree! Prison... just isn't the same as it was in the old days. Before, you'd go there, and learn your mistake, but now... Its either a doss house for the homeless, or some kinda den. It was on the news a little while ago about how whores, drugs and booze can be smuggled into prisons as easily as I can buy a chocolate bar from the shop. Whats the point of being locked up if you get "pleasure" from being there?

Chucking these idiots into the military is a good idea - again, its what happened in the old days, but now is just a story. It should be brought back. The only problem with that is that the person could then choose to say "F**k it!" to the world, and go against everyone. But then, if they want to kill, being in the army puts them in a possition where they can - as long as its the enemy.

This stuff is really getting out of control now, and the Government keeps saying the same things over and over again, and they still aren't getting anywhere with this. If they quit targeting the youths, and target the parents, they may get more of a response.

[Usagy]

This shit is happening more and more in Holland as well, mainly in Amsterdam and places like that.
Hate to generalize, but so many moroccons here ****ing it up and doing stuff like that. It's annoying the **** out of me..
Personally I never carry knives with me. I usually can protect myself well enough anyways.

Peace out

[Storm]

Britain really has reached an all-time low. For the past two or so years it seems like every day you hear of another person getting stabbed or beaten to death in London, Manchester, Liverpool etc. It really is disgusting, and it's worrying how often it's been occouring to innocent people. It's even causing paranoia. Thankfully both of the areas I live in (my parential residance and my university residance) are safe areas (at least you don't hear of much crime, and if it does the worst is probably theft), but even then I find myself getting increasingly paranoid if I walk past a large group of chavs. Last year a group of chavs attacked my friend because he is gay. Although they weren't trying to beat him to death, it was scary at the time, and luckily they weren't quite low enough to kill. My fear of major cities is now larger, and you have my sympathy, Unknown Entity for living in what seems to be Murder Hotspot UK.

In response to Anomaly, I do not see this as natural selection. Natural selection is where the stronger of the species live and breed, and the ones unsuited to the environment die. If it is anything to do with Darwin's theory, it is more a reverse of this- the weak are the ones breeding and modest civilisation is in decline. There are many unintelligant people walking the street, not being brought up with manners or consciences or an understanding that people have feelings.

On GMTV either this morning or yesterday morning they were saying that the age of people going to court for carrying a knife is being lowered to 16. I personally feel that it should be lowered even further, and that even young teenagers should not get away with this without facing the same sentance as an adult. Discepline and control in this country is ridiculous, and it really does make me angry how people can disrupt the lives of innocent people, and that you can literally get away with murder for being under 18 and having such pitiful excuses as "pier pressure" or "violant music and video games".

[Bleachfangirl]

You know, this story doesn't say anything about why those kids did it. Did Ben do anything to instigate a fight, or did the other guys just go insane and knife him for no reason? Either way, unless Ben decided to jump them, there's no reason to kill or stab anyone. The fact that kids that are still in school can just stab someone else multiple times without stopping to think or caring is bad though.

I don't know what's going on to make kids do this. No one my age does it, but it's still true that more and more of these kinds of things are happening. What we need are tighter reigns on kids then. I mean, if an adult kills someone and gets sentenced to life or capital punishment, why does a 16/17 year old that does the same thing only get a few years? If there's no difference in the crime or situation, shouldn't the punishment be the same? That's just what I think.

I didn't know people would do that though. If there was no reason, the one who killed Ben should...I don't even know. It's just upsetting to know that weapons like guns and knives are being used to kill when they only reason they're allowed to the public most of the time is for defense.

I think I can understand why someone might want to carry a knife around though. If those kinds of things are happening around your neighborhood, and you aren’t the bravest or more righteous person, you might consider it. But that’s only regarding someone CARRYING one. Not using one. Unless another person comes at you with a gun or a knife, you shouldn’t go at them with a knife. And if you’re angry, it’s called “punch and kick” you cowardly fool.

This ticks me off and makes me sad. I don’t really know why kids do this, but they do. I can’t think of anything else to say either…it’s just so stupid though.

[Martin]

I've read quite a deal on Ben Kinsella. I've read many newspapers, seen many television articles and suchlike. It would appear Bleachie, that it was a fairly unprovoked attack. Details do still seem fairly sketchy but it was just a simple fight in a pub that got out of control, and sadly in this society running away to perhaps save your life makes you a target somewhat. The cowards that attacked Ben did so seemingly because he was trying to escape. I feel even more enpassioned on the whole subject than perhaps I should. Let me explain.

I abhor violence. I don't see the need full stop. But I have a major problem with knife violence in particular. Very recently I received Jury Summons, so I have been on active Jury service. It only lasted four days, but I was to sit on a trial that involved the indictments of ABH, GBH and Wounding With Intent. It was a 46 year old woman on a similarly-aged man. They were both alcoholics whom after a night of heavy drinking, the woman stole a 4" steak-knife and plunged it into the man's chest. This was an unprovoked attack, and then with friends, proceeded to rain blows on the poor man until he could take no more. He locked himself in his bedroom after managing to stem the bleeding. The medical evidence proved this to be the case. We found her guilty in a matter of minutes for many other reasons that are not relevant and I don't care to divulge. However, what is the common denominator in the Kinsella case and the one I served on? Alcohol.

Of course it would be incredibly naive to even suggest this was the only reason why this sort of attack happens but it would certainly be fair to say that it is a common enough reason in the UK at the very least. The British drinking mentality is pathetic, I'm not ashamed to say. We drink far more than we should. And Storm is right when she claims major cities are turning into crime hotspots. There is an awful lot of unreported knife crime in Manchester, I can certainly vouch for that. And it will carry on being unreported because the GMP are next to useless. I'm lucky enough to say I've not been a victim yet. It's an incredibly senseless loss of life but sadly we've not bottomed out.

And PH, you're right. R.I.P. Ben. From what I've read and what I've come to know, you were taken too soon.

[Govinda]

You all seem to have missed a lot of pertinent points.

Things were not always this way, and it's not all gangster crap either. Several things have shifted over time to reveal in the UK: as families get moer affluent, the children are given more, spoiled a lot more. Also, to give them this, their parents work more, and the raising of the child is left more to itself, and kids can be impressionable. This isn't always the case, I know a lot of parents can provide and teach at the same time, but there will always be those who just can't juggle it, or just don't give a ****.

In the UK at least, this is a poor problem. Most of the stabbings occur in inner city estates and tower blocks, or in run down satellite towns (I'm speaking for my own town here). In Scotland, the story's different: our stabbings are linked directly to drink and stupidity, and kids are less involved. However, where they are involved is mostly in the shithouses of Glasgow; Easterhouse, Maryhill. Stabbing up here is nearly always linked to poverty, by what means I cannot be bothered to define, but let's get back to England.

In England, again, it's mostly a poor problem; but I can't really say, as I don't live there. But I know a lot of it is young black kids in big cities. I wish to God I could say why, but it's so many things all wrapped up together. Race, class, education, alcohol, parents...it all ties in.

The person who mentioned natural selection has already been refuted as an idiot. The person who mentioned the government's health and safety (which is, if you had the brain cells to notice, nothing but them protecting themselves and teachers against trigger happy lawsuits), is also talking bull. This thread has angered me, save a few good posts.

I'd also like to be the shocking first to say;

RIP Ben, and all the luck in the world to his family.

[Unknown Entity]

I have done some more research, and have found out that Ben is the brother of a soap actress over here in the UK, and Ben is in the new Harry Potter film coming out this November. Now that fact has nothing to do with this thread, and it doesn't in anyway make this death worse - a life is life, - but its something else:

These people stab eachother without knowing their victim. The person who they kill could be one of them, someone who isn't involved with crime, someone who will invent the cure for cancer and save millions of lives, someones future father/mother, a son/daughter, grandparent, aunt, uncle, cousin, husband/wife... The list is enddless.

Someone said something about how kids have no respect these days. Its true. One of my friends only has respect for her mum and dad when they are giving her money so she can go out and get drunk and/or stoned with her mates. There are people at school who screw at their teachers because they gave them detention for not doing homework, or because they did something bad. I've known people at my school who are seriously suffering from WBA/BBA (White/Black B*tch Atittude). Half of the girls think that going out with "gangsters" is cool! Its one of these: "Yeah, ma man protects ma lyfe wit dis gun of his... Gangsa 4 lyfe homies!" situations at my school! It feels like they promote this out, and it makes me feel sick! Is your "man" going to be able to protect you from the inside of a cell? No! Its because of these damn girls who can't keep their legs shut that a new breed of idiot is produced and lead into the world. These parents know NO morals, so they can't teach them which is right and wrong - and I guess this leads to yet another breed of "gangsta".

I'm sorry for bringing up the gangster thing again, but its the situation where I life.

And I'm sorry I never did this before, but:

RIP Ben. You went too soon, but deep down I feel you went to a better place...

[Furore]

No, not kidding you at all.
I'm just a huge fan of alcohol who knows very few people who don't enjoy a good drink... or 20.

Personally I've been stabbed by a person who was sober, and the only thing I've ever had a drunk want to do was smack me for talking smart to him. Trouble was he could barely stand.

Yes, you get alcoholics getting violent. But with their impaired abilities they're generally pretty harmless unless you're standing still shocked like a stunned mullet. You can argue that some will have their drunken friends behind them, but last I looked a lot of gangs responsible for violence were either sober and just wanting material gain OR they were f*cked off their face on methamphetamine or to a lesser extent on a few other kinds of drugs.

And I stand by what I said. All alcohol does is lower one's inhibitions. It's likely why you get different stereotypes of alcoholics. People who get violent drunk often have violent tendancies while drunk. Some of them are just good at hiding them or better at controlling them I'd imagine. I know I'm rarely in the mood to fight when pissed off my face. Nopes, I just get even lazier and laugh at everything.

[Helter Skelter]

No, not kidding you at all.
I'm just a huge fan of alcohol who knows very few people who don't enjoy a good drink... or 20.

Personally I've been stabbed by a person who was sober, and the only thing I've ever had a drunk want to do was smack me for talking smart to him. Trouble was he could barely stand.

Yes, you get alcoholics getting violent. But with their impaired abilities they're generally pretty harmless unless you're standing still shocked like a stunned mullet. You can argue that some will have their drunken friends behind them, but last I looked a lot of gangs responsible for violence were either sober and just wanting material gain OR they were f*cked off their face on methamphetamine or to a lesser extent on a few other kinds of drugs.

And I stand by what I said. All alcohol does is lower one's inhibitions. It's likely why you get different stereotypes of alcoholics. People who get violent drunk often have violent tendancies while drunk. Some of them are just good at hiding them or better at controlling them I'd imagine. I know I'm rarely in the mood to fight when pissed off my face. Nopes, I just get even lazier and laugh at everything.

Please get your facts straight before you commit to a vague and feeble attempt to glorify alcohol as "a harmless drug". It does lower your inhibitions, you're absolutely right, but it's also a mood enhancer, it lowers your sense of balance, and it can cause unpredictable and unexpected behaviour. Oh, yes it can. It makes people vulnerable, too, often the victims of mindless drunken rage. People argue and people fight, and always will, but adding alcohol to an angry human is like throwing petrol onto a chip pan fire.

I was the aforementioned boyfriend who was at the pub one Friday night, who went out for a smoke only to find a group of five or six men pushing, shoving and cornering one other man, over some dispute about him talking to one guy's girlfriend. The lone man tried to make a run for it, but a couple of them grabbed him, and they all started punching him. Once he was on the ground, did they stop? What did these magical lowered inhibitions incite in these grown men? They continued to kick him and stomp on him while he was down, motionless, and huddled up to protect his face and head.

And yes, you're bang on again when you say that plenty of violence like that occurs when the opposing sides are sober. Of course it fucking does. But the point is that it most likely wouldn't have gone so far had those particular individuals been sober at the time. In retrospect, there's no way of knowing. They probably would've got angry at the guy in the first place, but surely some of the guys would've known when to stop? The Great Mood-Enhancer and Inhibition-Lowerer is responsible for a lot of violence, a lot of fatal accidents, a lot of health problems and yes, one of the most common addictions in the Western World.

Why the fuck else would there be riot vans routinely patrolling the streets of towns and cities across the country, oh, say, on Friday and Saturday nights in particular? Why do you think that is?

Just because you're a relaxed, laid-back drunk doesn't mean that everyone else is the same. Many do get violent - and yes, they were probably fairly bad-tempered people to begin with, perhaps violent - but the booze (let's not forget its mystical ability to remove one's inhibitions and induce a concentrated version of whichever mood one is in) - the booze allows these extreme emotions and unpredictable actions to take place. It unlocks the door for people who would otherwise be able to control their anger for the most part when sober.

You can argue your case, but I don't see you uttering anything but the same ignorant bollocks you used to justify your last point.

[Furore]

Please get your facts straight before you commit to a vague and feeble attempt to glorify alcohol as "a harmless drug".

Technically it's a depressant with mood enhancing properties, no?
And I never called alcohol a 'harmless drug'. Your words, not mine. No, my thoughts are that alcohol's not to blame. It's just a scapegoat for people who aren't being responsible for their own actions.

It does lower your inhibitions, you're absolutely right, but it's also a mood enhancer, it lowers your sense of balance, and it can cause unpredictable and unexpected behaviour.

What do lowered inhibitions do? They tend to seem to make a person act in an extreme way. Be it crying over nothing,getting aggressive, laughing their head off. And thanks for the vote of confidence in calling me absolutely right. It's a great ego massage.

I was the aforementioned boyfriend who was at the pub one Friday night, who went out for a smoke only to find a group of five or six men pushing, shoving and cornering one other man, over some dispute about him talking to one guy's girlfriend. The lone man tried to make a run for it, but a couple of them grabbed him, and they all started punching him. Once he was on the ground, did they stop? What did these magical lowered inhibitions incite in these grown men? They continued to kick him and stomp on him while he was down, motionless, and huddled up to protect his face and head.

Been in many fights? That tends to happen usually with any group or crowd of men. I'd call that more a pack mentality thing, but then what would I know? It's not like fighting has been a big part of my life for the better part of the past decade. No wait, I lie. It has been. That's not lowered inhibitions. That's a bunch of people doing what cowards do best. it doesn't just happen at pubs and other drinking establishments you know.

And yes, you're bang on again when you say that plenty of violence like that occurs when the opposing sides are sober. Of course it ****ing does. But the point is that it most likely wouldn't have gone so far had those particular individuals been sober at the time. In retrospect, there's no way of knowing. They probably would've got angry at the guy in the first place, but surely some of the guys would've known when to stop? The Great Mood-Enhancer and Inhibition-Lowerer is responsible for a lot of violence, a lot of fatal accidents, a lot of health problems and yes, one of the most common addictions in the Western World.

You said it perferctly in bold. There's no way of knowing how things would have been otherwise as they didn't happen in another way. And no, you get a group of people laying into a person and the mentality is to keep going until some thing happens (like the sound of police sirens). Alcohol may not help, but you're joining pack mentality with the effects of alcohol.

Why the **** else would there be riot vans routinely patrolling the streets of towns and cities across the country, oh, say, on Friday and Saturday nights in particular? Why do you think that is?

There's none around here. And pretty much everyone around here loves to drink their booze. We just have more breath tests in festival seasons, but that isn't to stop violence. It's to stop drink driving. Mayhaps your area is more violent?

Just because you're a relaxed, laid-back drunk doesn't mean that everyone else is the same.

Yeah, just as just because you seem a tad anti-booze doesn't mean everyone else is. But because the only time of late you post seems to be when me and Pablo Honey are at odds in a discussion makes me question your reasoning. Are they fully your thoughts or is there an outside influence?

Many do get violent - and yes, they were probably fairly bad-tempered people to begin with, perhaps violent - but the booze (let's not forget its mystical ability to remove one's inhibitions and induce a concentrated version of whichever mood one is in) - the booze allows these extreme emotions and unpredictable actions to take place. It unlocks the door for people who would otherwise be able to control their anger for the most part when sober.

But ultimately it's the fault of the drinker, don't you see. They choose to drink more than they handle, and even with lowered inhibitions they can decide not to do something. I'd say I've been drunker than most here at times, hell I even had a hospital visit one time (not something I'm proud of), but even at my worst there was always a choice. It was just at times harder to make.

You can argue your case, but I don't see you uttering anything but the same ignorant bollocks you used to justify your last point.

As opposed to your intellectual banter? Accusations don't prove anything with nothing behind them. If I come off as aggressive it's because I've noticed malice, even if hidden in your post. Your post was in no way superior to mine. They're both just our own personal views and when I've felt that you've attacked my character, that's taking things a bit too far. What's the matter Helty, too sober to play nice?

[Govinda]

Every Friday and Saturday night in most towns and all cities in the UK, the police presence intensifies ridiculously; they crowd the streets in riot vans and, in London, patrol club areas on horses kitted out in horsey riot gear. Also, in A & E (Accident and Emergency) units in hospitals across the country, doctors and nurses need protection from their patients, and have to file countless abuse forms about the abuse they recieve on these weekend nights. Now, I wonder, why is it just these nights?

It is because a lot of people are pissed, and fighting. They are drunk and crashing cars, hitting one another, attacking one another, the police and doctors and nurses. This is the situation in the UK. On this you cannot really comment, since you don't live here.

Both Helter Skelter and myself enjoy a drink as much as the next person. His poison is Guinness, mine is rum or Kopparberg. Oh, and were you insinuating that I asked or somehow prodded him into posting here? Do you honestly think this shitty little place matters that much? He holds most of you in contempt, and never comes here. But he checks it every now and again, and when he did, he found this thread. I didn't know he'd even been on here until about 20 minutes ago. Why you think I'd need help to discuss a point is beyond me.

Please forgive Helter for being too sober to take a cheery look at stabbings or to respond to you nicely. As I stated, he holds this place in mild contempt most of the time, and only posts if something grabs him.

Maybe you can't see the damage binge drinking does from where you live. But here it is a powerful force. Coupled with the racism, historical contempt and bigotry that runs rampant over the UK, booze is a huge thing. I'm not talking a couple of pints down the pub with your mates. Last weekend, Glasgow was host to the Orange Marches; thousands of drunken Protestants marching around the streets, singing horrific songs about the Poles, pissing all over the streets, and starting fights. One stopped my brother in the city centre and asked if he was Polish, while he was with my mum; both replied no, at which point one of the march hangers-on grabbed my mum from behind and started leering, 'That's just as well then, eh!' before they spotted police around the corner and buggered off. Like **** would you catch someone doing that in the middle of Glasgow unless they were drunk.

This discussion is pointless, and this post was pointless. I'll never understand why I let the internet anger me, but there you go.

[Furore]

Every Friday and Saturday night in most towns and all cities in the UK, the police presence intensifies ridiculously; they crowd the streets in riot vans and, in London, patrol club areas on horses kitted out in horsey riot gear. Also, in A & E (Accident and Emergency) units in hospitals across the country, doctors and nurses need protection from their patients, and have to file countless abuse forms about the abuse they recieve on these weekend nights. Now, I wonder, why is it just these nights?

I wonder the same. Australia's known for it's beer loving inhabitants (and trust me when I say most are actually drinking other alcoholic beverages these days) and we don't seem to get that many drunks attacking hospital staff. It's mainly heavier drug users here who've literally lost half the use of their brain through such all time favourites as crystal meth. Including a couple of people who used to be my mates...

But then what would I know about alcohol and this kind of thing? I'm just an at times heavy drinker whose friends are pretty much all the same in terms of drinking. I don't think I have ANY friends who don't like the occasional (or more than occasional) drink...

It is because a lot of people are pissed, and fighting. They are drunk and crashing cars, hitting one another, attacking one another, the police and doctors and nurses. This is the situation in the UK. On this you cannot really comment, since you don't live here.

I know I can't comment on the UK. But I can comment on what I see here. And if it's not effecting both places the same way, then it would appear that alcohol is only a part of the equation if anything. I know a fair few people that have been involved with drink driving accidents (though most sucked at driving anyway), yet don't know any that would resort to something like stabbing a person while drunk unless they were provoked first and an angry drunk. I've seen incidents involving a pack mentality, especially if someone has either a gang or a large family with a ton of siblings and cousins and the like, and I have fought meth addicts myself, some who did seem to wish me bodily harm (or just looked very confused and angry, and at other times rather blank faced yet with tightened features), yet never had any real problems with someone who was just drunk. There's also a person's smarts. If a drunk is getting aggressive you just agree with him and keep him onside. You're either an idiot or damned sure of yourself if you let one bait you really...

Both Helter Skelter and myself enjoy a drink as much as the next person. His poison is Guinness, mine is rum or Kopparberg.

I drink pretty much everything, but my favourite drink is Coruba rum. Probably one of the cheapest decent dark rums you can buy. Guiness is alright, and has a little more alcohol content than most Australian beers, but it tended to be a little too pricey for me here most of the time. I'd rather stick with Toohey's Extra Dry and the like, especially as one of the several bottleshops in Dapto often has it on sale. It's a little less sharp tasting, but it is pretty damned crisp. My point? Not much, but it shows to some extent a little knowledge on the subject of alcohol.

Oh, and were you insinuating that I asked or somehow prodded him into posting here?

Not exactly. Nope, I was more insinuating that he saw a disagreement between us and decided to post because of it. I insinuated rather than stating it as it's not something I'm sure of. It's just I noticed the last few posts were mostly with similar circumstances. I apologise if I got it wrong.

Do you honestly think this shitty little place matters that much? He holds most of you in contempt, and never comes here.

Well, he sort of proved to me it matters that much by bothering to post. And if he never comes here, how would he have seen this thread and bothered replying? As for his contempt, that's too bad. The only contempt I hold is that for someone who acts so arrogant where it isn't warranted. But that's ok, I do enjoy finishing things.

But he checks it every now and again, and when he did, he found this thread.

It's amazing how people can not come here, check threads and then post...
...while not here! And it's something I don't think I can do with any possibility... I applaud Helter Skelter's almost magical abilities.

I didn't know he'd even been on here until about 20 minutes ago. Why you think I'd need help to discuss a point is beyond me.

I don't think you need help with a discussion. And that's part of the reason (besides him sounding a tad snotty to me) that I might have seemed hostile. It was probably also how I'd been sober for days, but regardless...

I KNOW you don't need help discussing things. I also respect your opinion. But I do have a difference in opinion here it would seem and just as I believe you would, I'm prone to defending my views and keeping with the discussion.

Please forgive Helter for being too sober to take a cheery look at stabbings or to respond to you nicely. As I stated, he holds this place in mild contempt most of the time, and only posts if something grabs him.

I never held that aginst him. No, I held his inability to play nice against him. It brings out my bad side, and the remark about him being too sober was purely intended to show that he seemed a bit too uptight for my tastes. Maybe you should up his Guiness intake?

Maybe you can't see the damage binge drinking does from where you live. But here it is a powerful force. Coupled with the racism, historical contempt and bigotry that runs rampant over the UK, booze is a huge thing. I'm not talking a couple of pints down the pub with your mates. Last weekend, Glasgow was host to the Orange Marches; thousands of drunken Protestants marching around the streets, singing horrific songs about the Poles, pissing all over the streets, and starting fights. One stopped my brother in the city centre and asked if he was Polish, while he was with my mum; both replied no, at which point one of the march hangers-on grabbed my mum from behind and started leering, 'That's just as well then, eh!' before they spotted police around the corner and buggered off. Like **** would you catch someone doing that in the middle of Glasgow unless they were drunk.

That's it exactly. It's not alcohol on it's own that does anything. It's the person who commits the crime regardless of their reason. Alcohol can contribute to a person commiting a crime, but it doesn't do that to a majority of people and often it's the other things. Like the contempt and bigotry for example. Sober people are capable of stabbing people too. And often as they have their full balance and wits about them, they're more successful.

This discussion is pointless, and this post was pointless. I'll never understand why I let the internet anger me, but there you go.

If the post was pointless, then why did you post? It wasn't pointless at all as you were just explaining what your thoughts are and I can completely respect that. You explained your situation and why you've seen things as you have and have given me the opportunity to do the same right back. Even the things that do seem pointless rarely if ever are, especially if they have an effect that's not always readily visible.

There are some seriously paranoid people in the world that carry knives, whether they're under the influence or not. It may be for defense, or just "to look cool".

Well if we're talking pubs here, chances are they equipped the aforementioned knives before their drinking time at the pub. They might have drunk enough while at home to be drunk, but don't you have laws there against pubs serving drinks to intoxicated people anyway? We do here, and it means predrunks are just sent home and don't always tend to bother trying later. THose that do are the ones fully in control where you don't notice they're drunk in terms of how balanced they are and their speech.

In any case, I don't think carrying weaponry of any kind or drinking excessively should EVER be justified. And nobody can make a logic point proving that much wrong.

Indeed. I just hate when alcohol is linked to crimes in a generalised way. It might influence some, but most drinkers are fine, even those who overindulge. I've seen way more drunks embarrass themselves or almost kill themself through drinking than I have seen harming others. The nasty ones tend to be a minority.

Should we ban cars and the like as they give some people road rage which can result in another's injury or death?

And silver; just because you personally have never wanted to hurt somebody because you were drunk, doesn't mean you speak for everybody downing booze. There is such a thing as uncontrollable addiction and even if I do scratch my head in wonder about it, it IS something that some people cannot control. I'm not linking you to that, but I wanted to clear it up.

I have heard that, but I still think the individual should be held accountable for his/her actions. Alcohol doesn't kill your ability to make the right decision, it merely impairs it. And they decided to drink the alcohol in the first place meaning it's their own fault. If a person is addicted, that's fine. But anyone can quit if they want it enough...

I honestly cannot believe a remark that I added almost flippantly has stirred such vitriolic debate. But I stand by what I said. It's not necessarily the case that alcohol is the root of all evil. I never stated it was, I just made a simple statement which I hold true; that no matter what it does have an effect on the mind, lowers your inhibitions and (especially true in the UK as pointed by PH and Helter) happens to be a major factor of violent crime. This is fact.

Worry not, I took what you said with humour. And the bit that needs to be cleared up is that alcohol DOES NOT happen to be a factor of violent crime. It is a factor of SOME violent crimes. If that's not understood, then once again poor, poor, poor, sweet, juicy alcohol is just being used as a scapegoat. It lacks the hands to stab someone itself you should all realise.

I never said it was the only cause. I think that certain mind-altering substances also happen to play a part, as with gang culture and the like. But let's be brutally honest here, in the case of the UK, most reported knife-crime or stabbings take place outside of drinking establishments. Silver, you're quite right in defending the moderate drinkers out there, but please accept that those who cannot control their drinking, are usually the violent ones. It just happens that way.

Aye, and like I said above in this post of mine, the fact that the UK and Australia seem to differ despite a lot of booze drinking indicates the alcohol isn't the major factor to me. Believe what you will, but I'm yet to see a cop taking a drunk too seriously here. Nope, that's the role of the bouncers (aka Security License Holders with a 'C' on their card indicating they can do Crowd Control work), and most drunks tend to pick themselves up and bugger off home once kicked out of a place. Some get a little angry at being kicked out, but the same can be said of any sober person. There's that few incidents that the few times the cops are needed, ten of them arrive at the one time and arrest the one or two causing trouble. No more drunks carry knives than sober people neither...

The main problem here is that we're all discussing this from varying culture. So everyone... calm the hell down. It's not helping and is not exactly what this thread is about is it?

And I agree. Chill out people, you all just need a good drink. Or ten.
Yeah, this is starting to get off topic, but it's still applicable if someone is mistaking the power of alcohol as a huge evil force taking countless lives, when it's really just a part of the cause for a small number of incidents.