Getting On My Soapbox

[Pete]

How general is General Chat really?

It's described as:

A gathering place for members. Discuss anything you wish within this forum, so long as there is room for an open discussion.

I'm not making the above up. Seriously, go and look at the forum description; it's right there, plain as day. Now, let's check out Merriam Webster, and see how it defines the word "Anything."

Pronunciation: \-ˌthiŋ\
Function: pronoun
Date: before 12th century
: any thing whatever : any such thing

Now, I've never admitted to being the smartest guy, but I do know how to read. I take offence to the fact that the Polk's Eleven thread was threatened to be closed. What is the point of closing such a thread? It's merely a comical thread for the sole purpose of entertainment and perhaps the theft of girl scout cookies. As we all know, those cookies are delicious.

But I digress. This website is for entertainment purposes, am I right? The Final Fantasy series is a video game series, and video games are a source of entertainment, correct? Now, if logic serves me right, a forum based around a source of entertainment would thusly be... another source of entertainment. Please, someone tell me if I'm wrong with my logic.

Now, an entertaining post, on a message board, for our entertainment, based on a different medium of entertainment would just be silly, right? Clearly, this is sensory overload.

It just so happens that this thread is one of the few humorous and original ideas that General Chat has had in a long while. The stagnancy is overwhelming, with "How do you feel about/ how do you like; this/that/the other?" What kind of discussion does this offer? You post your opinion and leave the thread. Discussion over, thread over. That really got the minds going.

Sure, I'm guilty of this, and of not posting my fair share of original and thought provoking threads. But, when I do post a thread, full of humor and perhaps a little edge to it, it's seen as offensive and closed down. Now, this is not my argument. You can call my thread flame baiting, trolling, being an asshole, or just being plain mean spirited, but what you can't call it is unoriginal. I asked a question about two former members. Was it funny? To some, sure. Was it offensive? To some, perhaps. Did it get the point across that was intended? Absolutely.

What truly irks me though, is how some threads remain open, when they offer absolutely nothing; zero room for discussion or thought. Take the Techno Dog for example. How can we turn that into a legitimate discussion, aside from the typical "That dog's crazy," or "Awwwwwwwww that's so cute." Under the strictest guidelines, if the conversation were to evolve into something say, on the merits of dog training, or perhaps even the morality of employing certain techniques in dog training, we'd be going off topic.

Now how can we have a topic when the post at hand is just a video? Explain that to me. Why is that thread not in the Humor and Word Games section. It's a humorous post that offers absolutely nothing.

Better question: Why do we even have the Humor and Word Games forum? If General Chat is for anything to be discussed, why do we have a sub forum for things that are too general for General Chat. How can "anything" feasibly be broken down?

Or is it because Humor and Word Games are simply for mindless posting? Or, shall I simply call it what it is: SPAM.

Now, I know there are a bunch of members who post exclusively in Humor and Word Games. That's cool and all, but I feel that's causing one of those things that TFF is so well known for: Rifts.

Hear me out. It's no secret that a good deal of members only post in the Humor forum. The question is, why do they do that? I for one cannot come up with an answer to that question. I mean, how hard can it be to string a few sentences together and have a normal conversation about literally anything. I honestly feel that if we were to get rid of the Humor and Word Games forum, we could bring about all sorts of activity to General Chat.

The truth is, I hate the H/WG forum because it does nothing for me. It doesn't spark any real conversation, and it's so mind numbingly simple. By removing it, and allowing for more themed (read: threads) topics for free flowing conversation, I think it would do wonders to improve both General Chat and the overall TFF community. I know for a fact that I'm not alone in this feeling.

I will go so far as to say this. If H/WG is deleted, and with it go members, then those are not the members that we really want at TFF. Think about it, they'd have been here only for the spam. Would you rather have a bunch of spammers in their own little pen, or would you rather have members who could and would interact with the rest of the community?

I don't know about anyone else, but I'd prefer the diversity.

I understand that not all issues are cut and dry. Yes, in a perfect world they would be, but with the more rules we have, the more loopholes we create. The rules make it easier for the mods to do their jobs, and for the most part, they are doing a good job. At the same time, under my proposal, there would have to be some more leniency, and General Chat would indeed actually become more general. Granted, those God-awful "vote a person out" and "what color did you poop" threads would have to go, and rightfully so. They literally bring nothing to the table. However, stupid, silly threads for entertainment, like World Domination and Polk's 11, are fun.

Look around, General Chat is stagnant. It really could use the fun.

I'm willing to talk about this civilly, and I want to do this because after nine years, this place really grows on you. If I didn't give a damn, I wouldn't have spent the past two hours writing.

[Block]

Pete, I'm too drunk to read all of what you said, but I do know that you, like I, are a hero of free speech. Much like Thomas Paine. A man looking out for the rest of our lives, even though we don't need looking after.

[midgetbob]

tl:dr - pete for mod. Do it. <3 I'm too drunk to read the whole thing, but I saw you post links to like... dictionaries and stuff... that means stuff. Pete you win.


**Edit**

In before thread lock. ZING!!!!1!1!1!ONE!1111!!!

[Rocky]

Flaming will NOT be tolerated under any circumstances. Flaming is malicious harassment of other members. Arguing is ok, but deliberate verbal attacks is considered flaming. Note: If what you say is a joke, please mark it as such, otherwise it will be considered flaming. This is a board for fun, not to be mean.

Just thought I'd leave this here... some mods need a rulecheck.

[Block]

Just thought I'd leave this here... some mods need a rulecheck.

my **** is officially hard

[Che]

Balances and checks.

The mods have no checks right now for balances.

When we say Pete for S-Mod, the people are voting. We want him to be one. You are not balanced.

[midgetbob]

my **** is officially hard

there were some hotties at that party............

[Block]

that french chick wants to do me.

[midgetbob]

seriously... isn't she STILL texting you? wtf... though... is it bad to do your friend's sister? oh wait... you're the best to answer this question!

[OceanEyes28]

Pete. I am willing to have a conversation about what everyone would like for the forum.

What I am not willing to do is put up with bullies. What you boys did tonight really put me in an awkward position. We do not need people who think they can bully new members or bully moderators into doing what they want. Telling us to "grow up" or "shut the **** up" or "get sand out of our vaginas" and on and on is not the way to go about this conversation. Your post was pretty reasonable. So, I'm willing to discuss. But if it turns into the kind of ridiculousness I saw earlier, I will not hesitate to hand out warnings and close this thread.

If you don't respect the staff, we won't respect you. So call off your bros, it's getting ridiculous.

I'm not going to worry about the turbo dog section of your post (turbo? techno? I keep thinking turbo), because that has been addressed.

Most threads in General Chat stay open, and it's rare that I've warned anyone for playful back and forth, as long as it doesn't get out of hand and hijack the thread from other posters. So when I'm told to get the sand out of my vagina (I'm landlocked, lol), it does not compute.

The issue with the Cilla/Martin thread. We were appointed to mod positions to interpret the rules as best we can and handle them accordingly. This time, we decided that your thread (and Che's) was inappropriate. It asked for information that Cilla and Martin aren't around to give or to consent to being given. I know some people are friends with them on facebook and could use that to post information that they might like kept private. And I think we're past pretending like it was an innocent inquiry.

The rest of you: If you just gave me an excuse to warn you in this thread, prepare to get warned.

[midgetbob]

If you don't respect the staff, we won't respect you. So call off your bros, it's getting ridiculous.

1: I'm not a bro... I don't pop my collar, wear visors or pre-frayed hats.

2: why'd I get warned? for saying there were hotties at the party? that was a legitimate quote / response. There WAS a french hottie that was all about Block... I also was also engaged to Block's sister... making the rest of my comment viable.... remove my warning. wtf.

3: just because we want him as a mod, we're getting warnings? how rude (in the best Star Wars voice possible - that's nerdy enough for the forums, right?)

[Che]

I know some people are friends with them on facebook and could use that to post information that they might like kept private.

COULD. Keyword COULD. You never let the thread evolve whatsoever. You never let it evolve into anything at all. You had no reason to close it, as it wasn't against the rules. To me, it was teasing fun, and to you who closed it, it was seen as something called "bullying" as I quote from OceanEyes in MSN.

[OceanEyes28]

1: I'm not a bro... I don't pop my collar, wear visors or pre-frayed hats.

2: why'd I get warned? for saying there were hotties at the party? that was a legitimate quote / response. There WAS a french hottie that was all about Block... I also was also engaged to Block's sister... making the rest of my comment viable.... remove my warning. wtf.

3: just because we want him as a mod, we're getting warnings? how rude (in the best Star Wars voice possible - that's nerdy enough for the forums, right?)

...Do I really need to address this?

1. Hey, great.
2. No.
3. You got a warning because you were completely off topic.

[midgetbob]

...Do I really need to address this?

1. Hey, great.
2. No.
3. You got a warning because you were completely off topic.

Let me fix it then....


Pete... you should totally be a mod.

Block... that chick from France totally wanted to do you. Also, is it bad to do your friend's sister?

On topic for the win. Good 'ole pete should totally be a mod.

[Furore]

Ain't there also a rule against spam?
Spam like that entire thread you're campaigning for?
Couldn't be ****ed reading the rules as I have no aspirations of becoming an e-lawyer or anything, but I *do* recall something against spam.

There should be a rule against being a **** though, or even multiple dicks because word travels fast among parts of the TFF community and I've heard from multiple people that some of you are being total dicks.

Maybe if your humour was a little less malicious the mods wouldn't give a shit. Just sayin' is all.

[Unknown Entity]

I can see where Pete is coming from.

A gathering place for members. Discuss anything you wish within this forum, so long as there is room for an open discussion.

Bringing in more quotes, seeing as we've dragged some rules out, however:

SHORT POSTS, 1.1: There are some instances in which a short post is a valid type of response. Example: There is a topic currently up in the FFIV forum in which the Original Poster (henceforth "OP") asks what color Anna's hair is. Anna's hair is brown. A valid response to this question would be along the lines of "Anna's hair is a light brown color. Hope this helps!" It is short and to the point, and completely answers the question at hand.

SHORT POSTS, 1.2: There are other instances in which short posts may also be appropriate. For example, most topics in the "Word Games & Humor" forum have spam-like qualities, and such responses are perfectly fine at all times. All posts made in the Word Games & Humor forum, along with those in the Member Business forum, do not count toward your total post count, considering the nature of the posts in those forums.

SHORT POSTS, 1.3: All other posts should contain some decent amount of content. If the topic is "What is your favorite band," the response should have more content than "Band Name." Tell us WHY it is your favorite. Most topics in the forum will ask for some type of explanation, rather than just an answer. This is what separates discussion threads from lists. This applies to threads forum-wide. There are times when a witty, one-liner response may be appropriate, so long as it stays within other guidelines of the forum.

See, I've looked over many of the topics where there could be some decent discussion, and all I've seen are one liners or not even that - some people neglected their writing skills to dump a picture in to "continue" the conversation. Then there's always someone who quotes the picture with another picture, and then someone else quotes them and puts either A) ANOTHER picture, or B) Something along the lines of: "HAHAHA, jker, or C) BOTH.

Polk's thread, I agree should be kept open. There could be some sort of discussion about a fictional Casino robbery (I say fictional because the mods CAN'T know that it's indeed real. Shhhh!), and how you would plan it, and what you'd need to think about. It's pretty creative in one sense, but looking at the posts, some of it has come out as spam.

Spam is different things in different people's opinion, but leaving a small comment saying "I'm in," doesn't leave much to discuss, and is therefore spam (in my opinion, anyway). Why are you in? What are the skills you can bring to the operation? Blaah blaah, yeah.

THING ONE: A post which has NOTHING to do with the topic at hand (e.g., a topic about small animals, and a post about eating dog meat in another country). These types of posts serve only to derail a thread from its original purpose, and are useless to the discussion. We discourage against this type of posting. An off-topic note in a post is one thing, but an entire post off the topic is another. If you feel the need to post entirely off the topic, quote your source material and create a new thread for your new discussion.

Sometimes, I'll admit, that's funny to see. Buuut, it gets out of hand in some threads (even though it can still be funny, if you get a warning, you have no right to complain). I saw this as a serious thread to actually get somewhere until I saw it going off to talk about texting... hottie French chicks.

THING TWO: A post which serves no purpose other than to aggrevate a person or people as a whole. This is generally classified as "flamebaiting," goading people into retaliating against you for no reason whatsoever. These posts will always receive some type of warning.

Apparently someone said something about OceanEyes having sand in her vagina. I can't be bothered looking for it, but the bottom line is she's doing her job, and... how do you know she has sand down there? o.O;

I'd bitch-slap someone with a warning too.

JABS: We have decided that a little ribbing can be a good thing. We don't want to stop you from having a little fun with one another. A little prodding is okay now and again, but be wary of the following categories when doing so.

INSULTS: There is no reason to directly insult another member, OR his/her intelligence. Calling someone out on a mistake is fine; calling someone out on a mistake and berating him/her for it is not. Making a personal attack based upon something you know about someone, even if it's information available online (Journal forum, other threads, etc.) is still not allowed.

That Martin and Cilla thread. Sure, it wasn't done with a bad heart, I don't think, but their life is their business. If they wanted the people of TFF to know how things were going, they'd be here talking about it in their journals or in other threads where it would make sense.

Sure, there wasn't any flaming, but as OceanEyes said, some of us are friends with them on facebook, and it's not right that some people would share information about them without their consent. That's, you know, taking information from them which could insult them and the trust they have in your facebook/real life friendship.

FLAMES: Insulting someone's mother, while in good fun, may ACTUALLY be offensive to people. We judge most flaming based upon post reports; your peers are going to decide whether what you say is offensive or not. This is where your best judgement is called into question. Making a joke is fine, but you have to be clear about it. If that means typing </sarcasm> at the end of your post, then do it. Better safe than sorry. Sarcasm is often difficult to convey through text; even if you think it's obvious, not everyone else will.

...I have to side with Ally after that. Sorry dudes. But being balanced means making sure certain things fit in with the other rules too. Mods have quite a few rules to go by when making decisions, so being balanced is tricky.

... before I get quoted and abused and anything else I could have done to me for not taking Pete's side, can I just quote this:

There is no reason to directly insult another member, OR his/her intelligence. Calling someone out on a mistake is fine; calling someone out on a mistake and berating him/her for it is not. Making a personal attack based upon something you know about someone, even if it's information available online (Journal forum, other threads, etc.) is still not allowed.

Yeah... go easy on me if you feel I'm wrong.

Also, I'd totally +1 Silver if I could. Jus' saying...

[TheSpyWhoLovedMe]

I just started an account moments ago and I must say, the rule list is quite verbose on this forum. I personally feel that if you pigeon-hole people and restrict what they say and do it's going to cause more aggravations than it will solve. If the community of a site doesn't fall for "Flamebaiting" or "Trolling" then those people will stop... kind of like bullies in high school.

A side note about bullies in high school, I was one.

[Pete]

So really, let's talk about the real issue at hand. What are we gonna do about Humor and Word Games?

I for one think that by getting rid of that forum, and by getting rid of all of those God awful spam games, and merging a very lax, yet themed style of General Chat, we could really bolster activity. This would not only make Gen Chat more active, but it would also lead to actual discussions and probably even more friendships between members.

I also think that whatever members decide to permanently leave TFF because of it are really not the type of members that we really want here. Let's face it, it's just a haven for spam and not exactly a place of thought provoking threads. Granted, most of GC isn't either at this point, but if we could just get actual discussions going on random topics, and letting them flow freely, as conversations do, it could really benefit activity and allow members to really get to know each other.

Think about it, how many conversations do you have in a day, that stay on the same exact topic for the entire duration? Unless you're a telemarketer, I'm willing to bet it's little to none. Conversations evolve, and I think if these threads are taken as conversations, and allowed to evolve reasonably, then run with it. You can only talk so much about one single thing without it getting stagnant.

Granted, if we're talking about apples, and someone starts talking about Pokemon, then that's a problem, but if we go from apples to gardening in general, then I can't see how it would be bad.

Long story short, I really think we need to get rid of Word Games. It breeds spam and really just trains people to post poorly.

[Victoria]

I'm in agreement with getting rid of Word Games. I've never been a fan of it, but at the same time I think we need to keep some form of a 'Humor' subforum, or maybe even a sticky thread where people can just link funny youtube videos or websites that they stumble across.

And yeah, you probably have a point there with the members that decide to leave if the spam goes away. But at the same time, we do need more members/activity.

What I would really like, is for the RP aspect of the forum to prosper again, but I know that that's just a wild dream that will never happen in this day and age.

[Pete]

Well, we used to have humor as it's own section. People could post jokes, funny pics and videos. I don't see a problem in that.

My main concern is with the Word Games though. When members come here and post exclusively in there, that's a problem. They could very well do the same exact thing in AIM or MSN chats. The members who leave aren't really even members in my mind. They post in an essentially useless forum, and can do the same thing elsewhere.

What I'm really trying for here, is to bridge the gap that we so clearly have. I know there are members here who would post in General Chat if it was more unified, and if we could have more free flowing conversations. I understand it may be a little intimidating for some to see people here with five plus years and thousands of posts, but I want it to be understood that nobody is really above anyone else. Yes, we have our cliques, but at the same time, it's been proven that new members can assimilate. Look at Dodie and Gypsy. They're both newer members, but at the same time, they have no problem talking to anyone on the board.

That point aside, I think what we need is activity. Members will come with activity. It's a travesty though that the most activity comes from the spam forum though. Yes, it's easy and stupid fun. But at the same time, it doesn't contribute anything. I know for a fact that there are many members who don't go into that forum because of how easy it is to post there and how little thought it actually requires.

I'm not saying that every post or thread has to be as long winded as mine have been, but all it takes to string a few sentences and coherent thoughts together is a few minutes. It's really not asking THAT much from anyone.

As for the RP forums, that is another animal in it's own right. It WOULD be nice to see it become more active again, because we were really known as THE forum for RP/ RPBing, but I suppose when the guys who were really well known for it got busier and moved on, it also started to fade. I know I haven't had the time to RPB in years, and that's what I used to become a decent writer. It's a shame, but hobbies take a backseat to life.

[Jin]

Didn't we used to have a "spam" forum that was canned because the sheer number of posts took up too much bandwidth or something? Or at least I recall that being the excuse given.

Is it really impossible to have something like that?

[loaf]

Didn't we used to have a "spam" forum that was canned because the sheer number of posts took up too much bandwidth or something? Or at least I recall that being the excuse given.

Is it really impossible to have something like that?

Thinking about SU? Spamelot? I never saw any problems in it as long as everyone was civil.

[RagnaToad]

There used to be a Spam thread some time ago in the WG forum. It was fun at times, but did take up a lot of bandwidth. I don't see how some of the games in the WG forum are any better than a spam thread really. I agree with most of Pete's points.

[Jin]

Thinking about SU? Spamelot? I never saw any problems in it as long as everyone was civil.

It was like Spamelot, but was on TFF.

Say what one wants about SU as a whole, but Spamelot always seemed to work well.

[loaf]

It was like Spamelot, but was on TFF.

Say what one wants about SU as a whole, but Spamelot always seemed to work well.

Agreed. I don't recall there ever being that many bad moments in it.

[Taco-Calamitous]

I agree that a lot of people seem to post solely in humor/word games, and never anywhere else. I agree that this fact is in fact a fact. It has me scratching my head at times, and I wonder if those kids could carry on a conversation anywhere else. Maybe what you-Pete-have proposed, in eliminating word games, would be a good idea. I'd miss the vote a person out games, because that's stupid fun, but I wouldn't miss it too much. I also agree that threads should be allowed to go a little off topic... but I think that already happens for the most part. I think that Ally and Ann are fairly laid back about that kind of thing, as have most the moderating staff been for the past few years or so. It has inspired me to not be so anal as I was when I first was a moderator. I've even decided to permit some one liners, so long as they have some weight behind them/are witty or funny (although don't get too carried away, kids. I'll use my mod stick on you.)

However, I don't like the things I hear that you and some of the other CPC8 boys have been saying to Ally. That is going too far. As is bullying people when they start a thread that you don't find worthy or whatever. This has happened on more than one occasion, and if I see it happening in General Gaming, I will step in. I think members have been getting pushed around by certain members of our brotherhood, and that isn't cool. Just thought I'd give a head's up here, since that was partially what was being discussed. So don't be surprised. Anyhoo...

Wuv, Yer Mom

EDIT: Also, what Rags said is correct; it was the Spam Thread. There are other word game threads that were permitted to continue to exist that are similar, like the Three Word Posts thread...

EDIT EDIT: Sorry Meier

[Meier Link]

Ok I have said this before and I will say it again. The events that have happened are NOT linked to CPC8. Just because there is an issue with some of the members the group as a whole can not be bunched into the accusations. The group in a whole is a solid part of this forum community, that is a given. It consists of most of the forum's most active members also.

Unless I missed people screaming CPC8 at Ally or stating that they were doing it as a part of an effort from CPC8. The entirety of the staff has access to all of the SGs, including CPC8, and can have a look in there if the situation deems fit.

Now as for the deletion of WG/H, I am still against this. I think there should be a limitation set to the types of WGs that can be created. Maybe set up something like clubs where people have to apply to make a new game in that area. I think that would be proactive for that forum in general. The deletion of WG/H is not a proactive move.

I think there are a TON of threads that need to be deleted though. It would free up alot of room on the server also.

As you stated in you OP Pete. People come here for entertainment and enjoyment. Just because that area of the forum is not for you (generally speaking not limited to just Pete) doesn't make it a bad place.

And as Taco stated, I would miss the elimination threads and a few others in that section.

[Che]

*Sigh* Listen, guys. First off, I'm sorry for anything I said to anyone last night on MSN. Ann, Ally, Victoria, I apologize. I am angry because I once knew a TFF that was more relaxed than what it is now. I'm concerned about the state of the forum. Of course, back then it was smaller and easier to deal with. Now with more members, it has evolved and so have the rules. I don't want to get caught up in the past because I realize that we are in the present though.

With more members come responsibility, and I understand that. What I don't understand are some of the reasons the moderators have been closing threads recently. I do not think it is a bad thing for posts to go off topic, just as Meier thinks that because a part of a forum is not for you it isn't a bad place. I genuinely believe that a discussion's fate is to eventually go off topic. And so what if someone's post is one-lined? I wrote a query to Meier which he still hasn't responded to. I'm not sure what the reason is, but I really would have liked a response on it. (Sorry, Meier)

Also, the more limitations you put on posting the worse the forums get in my opinion. However, I understand the need for rules, and the need for new members. But what kind of new members are you looking for? You aren't gonna pull in quality members by locking topics that go off topic for a second, and promoting word games. But you are going to pull in members that annoy you and make your life as a moderator harder, and make you jaded enough to not want to deal with any kind of humor at all.

I think the moderators should take a step back and look at the situation from afar. What would you do in our shoes? I've tried to look at this situation from your angle as well, as I've put in this post many times that I understand some of your concerns. But this forum isn't about the moderators, it's about the people who come here to post and join the community. Yes, you are a part of it, but nobody likes a bunch of dictators.

Please take this post into consideration, I know it will be hard for some of you from what I said last night on MSN. But please realize that I am really upset about the whole issue. I realize it's just a forum, but from being here for so long it's really grown into something I really care about.

[Violet]

I think the moderators should take a step back and look at the situation from afar. What would you do in our shoes? I've tried to look at this situation from your angle as well, as I've put in this post many times that I understand some of your concerns. But this forum isn't about the moderators, it's about the people who come here to post and join the community. Yes, you are a part of it, but nobody likes a bunch of dictators.

Who's being the dictators? I believe it was justifiable enough that your Martin/Cilla thread was deleted. If you're still butthurt over that, you seriously need to get over it. I was in the conversation with you guys when you were in the midst of planning to make the thread, I know what your intentions were behind it. So you can stop playing innocent and pointing fingers at us for being too hard on your asses, cause it was well deserved.

Also take notice that you are the only group of people who are making complaints against the moderators being too hard on everyone. If anything, I think we've been pretty lenient. We could be a lot worse, trust me on that. Moderators are also a part of the community. We're not just a bunch of BOTS that stand to the side and let everyone have their fun while inflicting rules and justification on wrong-doers. We also participate and try to make this place fun and tolerable. But when there's a certain few members going around and stirring a bunch of shit up, you're not helping in making this a fun place to be. Maybe just for your group.

[Che]

Who's being the dictators? I believe it was justifiable enough that your Martin/Cilla thread was deleted. If you're still butthurt over that, you seriously need to get over it. I was in the conversation with you guys when you were in the midst of planning to make the thread, I know what your intentions were behind it. So you can stop playing innocent and pointing fingers at us for being too hard on your asses, cause it was well deserved.

Also take notice that you are the only group of people who are making complaints against the moderators being too hard on everyone. If anything, I think we've been pretty lenient. We could be a lot worse, trust me on that. Moderators are also a part of the community. We're not just a bunch of BOTS that stand to the side and let everyone have their fun while inflicting rules and justification on wrong-doers. We also participate and try to make this place fun and tolerable. But when there's a certain few members going around and stirring a bunch of shit up, you're not helping in making this a fun place to be. Maybe just for your group.

I would appreciate if we left the personal attacks out of this thread. Especially coming from a moderator that's not a good sign. VM me your thoughts, like Victoria is doing.