Gays Brutally Killed In Iraq

[Phantom]

Hey all, I seem to come across these reports whenever I'm in a happy mood... This report was just saddening to read. I know Iraq still has issues but this..I think is going way overbroad. Check it out:

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Gays Brutally Killed In Iraq
Author: Megan
Peter Tatchell, writing in the Guardian (UK) recently, reported that despite the ‘improved’ security situation in war torn Iraq, Islamic death squads are engaged in a ‘homophobic killing spree. The Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani issued a fatwa urging the killing of lesbians and gays “in the most severe way possible”’, Tatchell says.

David Grey, producer for the gay film company Village Film, recently made a short film entitled ‘Queer Fear – gay life, Gay death in Iraq.’ The movie charts the tragic stories of several Iraqi individuals who are gay; it is not an easy movie to watch. Since its release, it is said, the situation has not improved, and it may in fact have become worse for gay and lesbian people in Iraq.

The reality is that in today’s ‘liberated’ Iraq, being gay or lesbian has become a death sentence. (Just as it is for a woman to have sex outside of marriage.) Anyone who is deemed to be insufficiently devout and pure is at risk of assassination, particularly in areas such as Basra, a city that the British military have now abandoned. This is, in effect, sexual cleansing and the death squads are boasting that they have exterminated all “perverts and sodomites” in many of the country’s other main cities.

There is a covert gay rights movement in the country. We know this because several members of it have gone missing after documenting the abuse of rights and the killing of gay men and women, and getting the news to the outside world. Commentators believe that the situation in Iraq is now worse for lesbian, gay and transgender people than it was under the rule of Saddam Hussein.

But, in the true spirit of the free voice, Iraqi LGBT is bringing the news to the world at large and trying to make a difference. Their site, iraqilgbtuk.blogspot.com, based in the UK, is keeping a watch on international reportage while raising funds to help fight the cause. It was while browsing this site that I found more, yet similar, disturbing news:

“This morning, [25th September 2008, just after the Tatchell article was published] news came from Iraq that the coordinator of Iraqi LGBT in Baghdad, Bashar, aged 27, has been assassinated in a barber shop. Militias burst in and sprayed his body with bullets.”

What can the Iraqi people do about it? You may well ask. Sadly the answer is not a lot. Going to the police for protection is a non-starter as the police are infiltrated by fundamentalists, especially in the Badr militia. Pro-fundamentalist ministers in the Government are turning a blind eye to the killings and, if one’s government will not help, who else is there? There are organizations like Iraqi LGBT, doing what they can from a distance, and individuals too can add their voice and their views. Outrage, the direct action group formed in the UK to fight what they see as violations of human rights in the GLBT community, also accept donations and provide help to Iraq GLBT. And the media around the world is slowly picking up on the subject, I am thinking of recent articles in Newsweek and the UK gay paper, the Pink Paper, in particular here.

Your own views are your own of course and not everyone will read the above from the same viewpoint as those who report it. But the clear message is that, in this part of the world, a battle rages between the religion and rights, a battle that will going on for many years and may never end. Which means the killing of fellow LGBT people will never stop either. Unless those of us lucky enough to be born elsewhere try to make a difference.


I just want to quote something from the report:

Islamic death squads are engaged in a ‘homophobic killing spree. The Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani issued a fatwa urging the killing of lesbians and gays “in the most severe way possible”’, Tatchell says.


A Homophoic Killing spree... I'm literally crying right now...you can't imagine. I mean I know most wouldn't care about gays, but I think even they would start to tear up at this, this.....this is just...not right.


in the most severe way possible”’,


................


Anyway, what are your throughts on this subject?

Please, no flaming, Thank You.

[Sinister]

I hate to trivialize it at this point but...duh. Those people have an intolerant culture to whatever they deem "deviant".

People like to think that attacking cultures is a "no-no". Bullshit. There are people who do evil things because their culture has raised them that way. My grandfather's grandfather was a slave owner and head of a plantation. I'm not shy about saying how that was evil. What else can you do but call their culture evil. The sadness stems from the collateral damage caught in the hazard. The people who know it's wrong to do these things, or the victims of them...

A friend of the family watched men beat a woman, (a woman they supposedly did not know) because she dared to wave goodbye to an American soldier.

Now, a lot of this that reaches our ears is propaganda, but it doesn't change the known facts... The lack of tolerance. The bombings. The hate. The misogamist behavior. The righteous religious fervor. The moralist draconian wrath.

You can't expect them to be accepting of something like that... They're far from hippies touting peace and love. Very far...


-Sin

[Pete]

That's pretty terrible, but like Sin said, you're not gonna be able to change their culture. While we might be at war in Iraq, there are some things that will be adapted, and others that wont. Unfortunately, it's almost always the wrong things. They'll be opening Starbucks and McDonalds in Iraq, while the radicals will be killing women and gays. It sucks, but you can't force people to be tolerant, it's something that must be learned and people have to be somewhat willing to let it happen.

You also can't really have anyone make the radicals like gays either, because in their warped minds, they think that it's alright and even a good religious belief to hate gays and persecute women. That's Gods will to them, and lord knows you can't change that.

[Sasquatch]

But the clear message is that, in this part of the world, a battle rages between the religion and rights, a battle that will going on for many years and may never end.

It's not between religion and rights, it's between Islam and rights. Don't generalize.

Apart from that ... yes, this is what happens in many Islamic extremist countries. Imadouchebag (err, Ahmadinejad) in Iran said of homosexuals, "We don't have that problem." Israel is a haven for homosexuals in the area that would otherwise be killed (or worse) in surrounding areas. Turkey is similar.

In Iraq, homosexuals were regularly beaten, tortured, and executed. Saddam -- and especially his sons -- targetted homosexuals more than most other groups, because they, for lack of a better way to put it, "wouldn't be missed". They were already looked down upon my most of the population, so they were a logical choice for "experimentation", because the majority of the population wouldn't have too much of a problem with it.

While their leadership has changed greatly, their culture hasn't. Especially when they have foreigners coming in, and bringing with them their (even more) extreme views and intolerance of anything different.

This is one of the reasons that some feminists, homosexuals, and environmentalists were proven to be hypocrites by their lack of support for the overthrow of Saddam's regime.

[Jin]

This is one of the reasons that some feminists, homosexuals, and environmentalists were proven to be hypocrites by their lack of support for the overthrow of Saddam's regime.

You know, you throw one or two intelligent comments out there, get my hopes up, and then say something so unbelievably silly that I can't decide whether to laugh or cry. If you think that the reason the majority of people are against the war is because they don't disapprove of Saddam, then you're out of touch really. Come on.

While their leadership has changed greatly, their culture hasn't.

A silver lining at least. Quoted for truth. All the guns in the world can't change someone's culture. Not internally at least. Their exterior practices can be changed, but when it comes down to it, people don't change easily. It's really not surprising that this is happening/has been happening. Sad, but not surprising.

[Meier Link]

OK to start off, I am going to have to throw out my opinion on what Omni said, maybe I read this wrong, please forgive me if I did, if I did not I do understand where you are coming from on this one. And I am not trying to contidict you in anyway possible.

What else can you do but call their culture evil.

I would not call any of the actions you described as evil in a sence, the word I would use is primitive. I am going to use your example of your grandfather's grandfather as my example. I am not going to retype what you said though. The hole slave trade thing was a sign of a primitive nations use of primitive measures. As our culture (Americans) has evolved, we have devloped (quite good I might add) an understanding of what is moraly right for the human race. But would I call what was done in the past evil? Not at all by anymeans. Is it right, certinly not. Through out the world's history events like this have happened, look at WW2 for instance with the persicution of the Jews, at the time Germany thought they were in the right, now that it is in the past they realise they where in the extream wrong. If in the time you think you are doing something right, even though it is not does that truely make you evil?

Ok now to the subject at hand, I think this outbreak against the gay community in Iraq is wrong by every means possible, I just wanted to throw that out there. But all in all Iraq is still a very primitve nation. Look at the U.S. for example, not everyone is accepting to gays and their view (by most of those Americans.) are primitive, we still have a ways to go even though we have been through many hurdels to get where we are today.

Persocution because of one's sexual preference is wrong. And it just shows that they are not a developed and mature society. And acceptance will take time and understanding.

To quote a section of phantom's post

"A Homophoic Killing spree... I'm literally crying right now...you can't imagine. I mean I know most wouldn't care about gays, but I think even they would start to tear up at this, this.....this is just...not right."

I am right there with you on this one, this is horrible. This being said from a heterosexual male. Gay or not they are still human beings and they are no different then the hetero communities. And like I said to be persicuted "in the most severe way possible" or any way what so ever is a nightmare.

This all goes to show that the human race stil has alot of evolving to do....

[Sinister]

OK to start off, I am going to have to throw out my opinion on what Omni said, maybe I read this wrong, please forgive me if I did, if I did not I do understand where you are coming from on this one. And I am not trying to contidict you in anyway possible.



I would not call any of the actions you described as evil in a sence, the word I would use is primitive. I am going to use your example of your grandfather's grandfather as my example. I am not going to retype what you said though. The hole slave trade thing was a sign of a primitive nations use of primitive measures. As our culture (Americans) has evolved, we have devloped (quite good I might add) an understanding of what is moraly right for the human race. But would I call what was done in the past evil? Not at all by anymeans. Is it right, certinly not. Through out the world's history events like this have happened, look at WW2 for instance with the persicution of the Jews, at the time Germany thought they were in the right, now that it is in the past they realise they where in the extream wrong. If in the time you think you are doing something right, even though it is not does that truely make you evil?

Ok now to the subject at hand, I think this outbreak against the gay community in Iraq is wrong by every means possible, I just wanted to throw that out there. But all in all Iraq is still a very primitve nation. Look at the U.S. for example, not everyone is accepting to gays and their view (by most of those Americans.) are primitive, we still have a ways to go even though we have been through many hurdels to get where we are today.

Persocution because of one's sexual preference is wrong. And it just shows that they are not a developed and mature society. And acceptance will take time and understanding.

To quote a section of phantom's post



I am right there with you on this one, this is horrible. This being said from a heterosexual male. Gay or not they are still human beings and they are no different then the hetero communities. And like I said to be persicuted "in the most severe way possible" or any way what so ever is a nightmare.

This all goes to show that the human race stil has alot of evolving to do....

To quibble on your interpretation of the overlapping senses of Evil and Primitive, is not what is in contest. If it is your opinion that slaughtering people because they're gay is primitive rather than evil, that is merely your interpretation. I disagree strongly with you...In that, today, that primitive behavior IS evil...

Any nation/ethnicity can primitively evolve their culture in an evil(or if you prefer a "negative") direction...

Like I said, people are scared to term something evil or to attack a nation for their culture. There are some things that ARE evil and wrong...killing people because of their sexual orientation just happens to be one of them...


Respectfully,

-Sin

[Meier Link]

To respond to that I will quote myself

Persocution because of one's sexual preference is wrong. And it just shows that they are not a developed and mature society. And acceptance will take time and understanding.

To quote a section of phantom's post


Quote:
"A Homophoic Killing spree... I'm literally crying right now...you can't imagine. I mean I know most wouldn't care about gays, but I think even they would start to tear up at this, this.....this is just...not right."

I am right there with you on this one, this is horrible. This being said from a heterosexual male. Gay or not they are still human beings and they are no different then the hetero communities. And like I said to be persicuted "in the most severe way possible" or any way what so ever is a nightmare.

This all goes to show that the human race stil has alot of evolving to do....

I was not trying to contridct you just stating an issue of the difference. And I whole heartily agree with you and Phantom when saying these actions are wrong and "evil" in the sence that you are speaking of them in.

[Govinda]

Children are still being caught in roadside bombs and suicide attacks on civilian locations all across the Middle East. One thing at a time. It's horrible that this is happening to gay people, that they're being singled out, but there are still huge problems - civilian problems - that need to be fixed before our military brigades can start picking out factions of society to save. Truly, the report is horrible. But one step at a time.

[ChloChloAriadne]

I actually was crying a little when I saw this on SkyNews recently.

I think it's awful, to be honest. But that said, just as awful as anybody else being singled out. It just seems to be another stage of hatred in society. The truth is, people who are attracted to the same gender will NEVER be treated equally.

This is just a cruel reminder of that.

[Sasquatch]

You know, you throw one or two intelligent comments out there, get my hopes up, and then say something so unbelievably silly that I can't decide whether to laugh or cry. If you think that the reason the majority of people are against the war is because they don't disapprove of Saddam, then you're out of touch really. Come on.

When many groups that label themselves as such -- homosexual rights advocates, feminists (or women's rights advocates, whatever they want to call themselves), and environmentalists -- protest anything about OIF/OEF, what do they protest?

They protest the U.S. military's "don't ask, don't tell" policy and the fact that homosexuals aren't allowed to serve openly. They protest the U.S. military's policy of keeping women out of combat MOSs, like Infantry. And they protest the U.S. military's use of lead or Depleted Uranium, or their fuel consumption.

They don't protest the way homosexuals and women are treated in that culture, and they don't protest the environmental atrocities committed by Saddam, such as the setting ablaze of oil wells or the controlling of water flow. They don't support military action to take out Saddam and the Ba'ath party because of their mistreatment, torture, rape, and environmental violations.

And when they claim to support specific ideals, and refuse to put their personal grudges aside to continue to support those ideals, they show their hypocrisy.

Meier Link and OmniTense, y'all both make good points. I would argue, as I believe OmniTense did, that "primitive" may have been an excuse in the past, but in today's world, "evil" is a more accurate world. In places that women are subjugated, people of different religious beliefs, ethnicities, or sexual preferences are tortured and murdered for no other reason, or that slavery still exists -- as it does in many places in sub-Saharan Africa -- "primitive" is no longer an excuse. But, I would imagine, the popular perception of "evil", in the difference between consciousness and ignorance, is a topic for another thread.

[Jin]

They protest the U.S. military's "don't ask, don't tell" policy and the fact that homosexuals aren't allowed to serve openly. They protest the U.S. military's policy of keeping women out of combat MOSs, like Infantry. And they protest the U.S. military's use of lead or Depleted Uranium, or their fuel consumption.

Irrelevant to this topic.

They don't protest the way homosexuals and women are treated in that culture, and they don't protest the environmental atrocities committed by Saddam, such as the setting ablaze of oil wells or the controlling of water flow.

What did you expect them to do exactly? Send Saddam a petition? It goes without saying that the majority of people are opposed to human rights atrocities. Protesting the obvious would be stupid.

They don't support military action to take out Saddam and the Ba'ath party because of their mistreatment, torture, rape, and environmental violations.

How many dictators are there in the world that engage in human rights violations? Sending the troops on an endless crusade to wipe out every human rights violation ought to be a human rights violation itself. People didn't support taking him out for two reasons:
1) They believed the US had a hidden agenda for taking him out. I'm not going to debate whether this allegation is true or not, but suffice it to say they did not protest his removal because they liked him.
2)They saw past the shortsighted "spread democracy" bullshit and saw that removing Saddam would create more problems than it would solve, only this time it would involve the US and not just Iraqi citizens. Once again, not because they liked Saddam.

And when they claim to support specific ideals, and refuse to put their personal grudges aside to continue to support those ideals, they show their hypocrisy.

For some people, you're absolutely right, it's all about not being Republicans. However, there are very legitimate reasons why one could have been against removing Saddam/pacifying the region and still be against his/the regions policies. This isn't rocket science.

[Angantyr]

What is love? BABY DON'T HURT ME, DON'T HURT ME.... NO MORE!

EDIT by OceanEyes28: This post has already been pre-warned, just to ease your minds and your fingers off the report button. Though, I do appreciate it. Thank you for reporting.

[Rasler+]

In the most severe way possible? Man, that's brutal. I don't see anything wrong with being gay, so killing isn't pretty much necessary. That can change, you know... well, some will, of course. It's not their fault that they act like the opposite sex.

Maybe they also killed the feminine guys (men who aren't to manly but aren't also gay) in the process. My best friend's a tomboy, but she's not a lesbian, so it's pretty much a good thing that she doesn't live in Iraq. She would have been dead by now.

Everyone has the right to live, even homosexuals and bisexuals. They're human, too, in case they didn't know. And there isn't a rule in the Ten Commandments, the Twelve Tables, or any damn constitution that allows anyone to [brutally] kill anyone, especially homosexual people.

And how does the war in Iraq involve gay people? Man.

[britney]

Okay now that's not something nice to do.
Gays should be allowed to be gay.