Zimmerman vs Martin in the TFF Court

[Hobaginator]

I'd like us to hold a mock trial for the Zimmerman case with no rules of engagement. Flat out opinions. Anything goes (within the confines of the regular I.D. rules of course). You can choose to be prosecution, defense, or peanut gallery.

I'll start us off. I'm taking the side of the defense.

Zimmerman should serve the minimum sentence, and I will explain my reasoning why in a four-part wall of text (prepare to be offended):

First I'd like to comment on this recent character defaming of Zimmerman. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...k1&pLid=179799

Point #1: This woman's testimony is completely unrelated to the shooting, and she has absolutely no evidence to support her claims. Even if it is true, she said the molestation occured as late as age 19, and not once did she ever admit to having told him "no" or "stop". Let me point out her grammar: "they talk a lot of bad things about black people." Seriously? Dey talk a lot a bad things about wat people? People "talk a lot of bad things" about most people. I'm about to "talk a lot of bad things" about stupid people.
Point 2: Treyvon Martin got shot because he was stoned out of his mind and thought he was a badass. Even if he thought he might have been getting robbed, he had no money on him so what could he have been fighting to protect? His judgement was clearly impaired, and obviously his parents had no problem with their high school age son doing drugs. That's what it boils down too. Treyvon Martin died because he was doing the wrong thing, at the wrong time, in the wrong place, to the wrong person. He must have been "feeling lucky".
Point 3: This new case against Zimmerman is based completely on the word of a single woman with a grand total of zero evidence. All hard evidence supports Zimmerman acting in self defense. About her statement of the Zimmerman family not liking black people who don't act white, most people don't like black people who don't "act white" if you consider acting white being a law abiding citizen with morals (the stereotype). There's a hell of a lot of criminal role models in "black culture". Yes that's me attacking BET and hip hop, where bragging about your criminal lifestyle is commonplace, along with lots of "twerking dat monkay".
Point 4: If Martin was white, black people wouldn't care at all about his death. It's only because he's black that there's an outcry from black citizens. That's what's racist. If Martin was white, black people wouldn't care. Racist.
Personal note: I agree with Zimmerman's mother if what she said is true, Obama is the worst president who's held office in my lifetime. Not because he's black, but because he sucks at being Commander in Chief. He makes $400,000/yr and he doesn't even bother to wear a suit and tie. He lied to the troops on multiple occasions. He throws parties in the white house when he is supposed to be handling serious business, and he blows money like a rock star. He lacks the disclipline of character essential to being a leader of men. Hate to say it, (wait I lied, I'd love to say it) based on what I've been hearing, it seems to be hard for many black americans to look past skin color and their own bias to actually analyze a situation before passing judgement. If you have a different opinion, I'd love to hear the reasons why.

tldr; woman's testimony has no evidence, treyvon martin an idiot, obama a failure, some blacks defending both of them for racial reasons.

[Merlin]

Her whole story smells of a money grab. If she was truly scared of him, she wouldn't have said a word even after he was arrested. Typically, people who are abused for extended periods of time will not flip on their abuser. The person could be locked up and the victim will still refuse to testify for fear that something bad will happen. His friends might come after me. He might be let go and come after me. etc. True there are exceptions to every rule, but I would put a huge warning label on someone suddenly coming forward with information like this only after the person is accused of something else.

Now, I do think that Zimmerman made one fatal flaw that blows his whole case out of the water. He was specifically told NOT to engage Martin. By engaging Martin he is now the instigator of a confrontation. It doesn't matter if Martin had a container of Skittles or was spraying automatic gun fire across the neighborhood. By confronting Martin, Zimmerman became the instigator. You cannot claim self defense when YOU approached a target which you believe to be hostile. If Zimmerman stood where he was after calling 911 and Martin approached him, then that is a totally different matter. At that point, Zimmerman would be defending himself. By taking the fight to Martin, he cannot claim self defense. All he was legally allowed to do after calling the police was to keep them updated on anything else he found out while staying on the sideline. Any action to attempt to stop Martin is a form of illegal detainment.

Regardless of what happened when the two of them butted heads, or what kind of person either one of them are, Zimmerman still violated the law and needlessly killed someone in a situation that could have been avoided by listening to the police. Vigilantism causes more harm than good.

[Hobaginator]

He was the leader of the neighborhood watch and he spotted what he described as an unknown man acting suspiciously. Also, keep in mind the amount of burglaries that had occured in Zimmerman's neighborhood. When he left is car, Zimmerman admitted to trying to keep Martin in his line of sight but failed. According to Zimmerman's testimony (which passed a voice stress test) he attempted to return to his vehicle where he was suddenly jumped out of nowhere by Martin, who beat him until he had a broken nose, two black eyes, cuts on the back of his head and a minor back injury. At some point during the beating, Martin attempted to grab Zimmerman's gun, but was unable to wrestle it away from him. At this point, Zimmerman would have acted in self defense had he pulled the trigger, which he did.

He was the leader of the neighborhood watch and he spotted what he described as an unknown man acting suspiciously. Also, keep in mind the amount of burglaries that had occured in Zimmerman's neighborhood. When he left is car, Zimmerman admitted to trying to keep Martin in his line of sight but failed. According to Zimmerman's testimony (which passed a voice stress test) he attempted to return to his vehicle where he was suddenly jumped out of nowhere by Martin, who beat him until he had a broken nose, two black eyes, cuts on the back of his head and a minor back injury. At some point during the beating, Martin attempted to grab Zimmerman's gun, but was unable to wrestle it away from him. At this point, Zimmerman would have acted in self defense had he pulled the trigger, which he did.

[Sasquatch]

Now, I do think that Zimmerman made one fatal flaw that blows his whole case out of the water. He was specifically told NOT to engage Martin.

He was not told "not to" do anything. He was told that he wasn't needed to do it. At that point, he stopped.

By engaging Martin he is now the instigator of a confrontation.

He did not engage Martin. Zimmerman was on his way back to his vehicle when the confrontation happened -- he pursued Martin, stopped, turned around, and walked partway back to his vehicle.

It doesn't matter if Martin had a container of Skittles or was spraying automatic gun fire across the neighborhood. By confronting Martin, Zimmerman became the instigator. You cannot claim self defense when YOU approached a target which you believe to be hostile.

So if I'm throwing rocks at you from a building, and you approach the building to get me to stop, you're now the instigator?

By taking the fight to Martin, he cannot claim self defense.

First, he did not "take the fight" to anybody. Second, at the point the firearm was used, it was not a fight, it was battery. Zimmerman could easily say that he feared for his life and used deadly force to defend it -- no matter who started a fight, he still has the right to use deadly force to defend his life.

All he was legally allowed to do after calling the police was to keep them updated on anything else he found out while staying on the sideline. Any action to attempt to stop Martin is a form of illegal detainment.

False. Which is why Zimmerman was (eventually, after media pressure) arrested for murder, instead of being arrested for assault, illegal detainment, or disobeying a police order.

Regardless of what happened when the two of them butted heads, or what kind of person either one of them are, Zimmerman still violated the law and needlessly killed someone in a situation that could have been avoided by listening to the police. Vigilantism causes more harm than good.

It could have also been avoided by Martin not trying to bash Zimmerman's head against the pavement -- or not doubling back and attacking Zimmerman -- or obeying the neighborhood watch -- or not being high -- or not serving a suspension from school at the time.

Zimmerman should serve no sentence. His defense is based on the fact that he was defending his own life, which was being threatened at the time. Martin was a punk, a thug, with a criminal history, who loved pretending to be a "badass", concerned with nothing more than how tough he looked and where his next dose of drugs and sex came from.

Unfortunately, Zimmerman will be crucified either way. While it's plain to see that this is an open-and-shut case of self-defense, media pressure will push for his conviction. And if he's not convicted, he will still have to live with the continued death threats.

[Hobaginator]

Sasquach you're a true american hero.

Merlin, you have the facts all wrong. You must watch CNN and Fox News. Thing is, they were both so wrong about the Zimmerman case that people got FIRED for the news they put out there. Audio edits, false claims, and rampant demonization of Zimmerman. Fired. Don't take what you see on TV for facts.

Now, according to Wikipedia...

[Merlin]

I don't have the facts wrong. I've read the actual evidence from both sides, including the police reports that clearly indicate that Zimmerman's story is inconsistent with the evidence and with his own statements. For starters, he claims that while in his vehicle he was afraid of Martin and did not wish to confront him. If he was truly afraid of Martin, why did he exit his vehicle and begin chasing Martin, who was running in the general direction of the residence he was visiting?

It is also shown that Zimmerman had at least two opportunities to identify himself as the leader of the Neighborhood Watch to diffuse the situation and did not do so. When Martin originally approached the vehicle, Zimmerman rolled up his window and would not acknowledge Martin. Martin then began heading in the direction of the residence he was allowed to be at while Zimmerman followed in his vehicle. It doesn't matter what race you are, if someone is tailing you in a vehicle, that is extremely suspicious. After noticing Zimmerman tailing him, he began to run. At this point Zimmerman got out of his vehicle and began chasing Martin on foot. He still did not announce who he was or why he was chasing Martin. The act of getting out of his vehicle in itself is a violation of the cardinal rules of the Neighborhood Watch. As Chris Tutko, director of Neighborhood Watch for the National Sheriffs' Association states, "If you see something suspicious, you report it, you step aside and you let law enforcement do their job," Tutko said. "This guy went way beyond the call of duty. At the least, he's overzealous." Report the issue and drop it. Zimmerman chose not to follow the dispatcher's advice or that of the Neighborhood Watch which he was the leader of. Zimmerman's actions were far more suspicious than a "black teen in a hoody".

Third, the physical dimensions of each person and no training in combat would not place Zimmerman at a disadvantage against Martin in a fight which would necessitate the use of deadly force in response. The investigators noted that there were no signs of blunt force trauma to Martin, which would indicate that Zimmerman didn't even attempt to fight back before escalating to using deadly force. If he did not have a gun on him, which was against Neighborhood Watch rules, Martin couldn't have allegedly tried to grab it away from him. More importantly, if Zimmerman had stayed in his vehicle the altercation would have never occurred.

Since the evidence on what exactly happened the moment Martin and Zimmerman began hand-to-hand combat does not exist, I will not speculate on who swung first. What I do know from actual evidence is that we only have Zimmerman's word for what happened right at that moment and that is only one side of the story. It cannot be taken as fact, as it is nothing more than hearsay. From his own words, he wrestled his way away from Martin, moved away and then fired his weapon. I haven't seen the evidence on bullet trajectory so I do not know if Martin was standing or kneeling at that point. Regardless, if we are to believe what Zimmerman said, he was no longer in immediate danger. He had a gun pointed at his assailant. He didn't say "stop or I'll shoot!" He didn't claim that Martin lunged at him. He said he moved away and shot Martin. His own testimony shows that it wasn't self defense at that point.

Perhaps he shouldn't be charged with murder, but he is definitely a vigilante and should be prosecuted for it. You don't shoot someone simply because you're getting your ass kicked.

[Hobaginator]

I don't have the facts wrong. I've read the actual evidence from both sides, including the police reports that clearly indicate that Zimmerman's story is inconsistent with the evidence and with his own statements.

What evidence exactly indicates that his story is false? What hard evidence? If you tell me you have evidence I'd expect to see it, not just take your word that it exists somewhere.

The act of getting out of his vehicle in itself is a violation of the cardinal rules of the Neighborhood Watch.

Where are these "cardinal rules of the Neighborhood Watch"? I'd like to read this official text.

Martin then began heading in the direction of the residence he was allowed to be at

Oh really? Is that so? Because all police reports and accounts that I have read indicate that Zimmerman wasn't aware of which direction Martin had ran, nor which direction he had run from, and Zimmerman is the only person who had witnessed the altercation from beginning to end. No other witness or present third party has ever come on record and made any sort of comment as to which direction Martin had run from, or to, except for the female who was allegedly talking to Martin on the phone during the whole thing; however, there is no hard evidence suggesting any such phone call ever happened. There has been no conclusive hard evidence that I am aware of to suggest that Martin had tried to run to his father's apartment. What evidence gives you that notion? Can I see it?

If he did not have a gun on him, which was against Neighborhood Watch rules, Martin couldn't have allegedly tried to grab it away from him.

Again, what "Neighborhood Watch rules" are you referencing? Can I see them? Were they made readily available to Zimmerman himself? I wasn't aware that it was illegal for a citizen of the United States involved in a Neighborhood Watch program to carry a concealed firearm if he or she possesses a valid Concealed Carry liscense. Does the fact that Zimmerman had been involved in a Neighborhood Watch program change the laws of self-defense for him in this case?


You're not doing a very good job at laying down the facts. Your statements are based upon heresay and speculation. Intelligent Discussion is based on intelligence -- facts. There has been no conclusive evidence thus far that has proven Zimmerman's story false, in fact, a sum of hard evidence in this case so far appears to be in Zimmerman's favor. The 911 call in which the operator said "we don't need you to do that" to which he replied "ok". The severe beating Zimmerman took which shows, if anything else, that Martin was aggressive enough to draw blood and break bone. Zimmerman certainly didn't cause that damage himself. He waited until the point of having his head slammed into the concrete sidewalk before he used deadly force. I don't know if you've ever had bones broken in your face, or your head slammed on concrete, but I'd imagine it might make you fear for your life.

Zimmerman pinned this kid for a thief, and evidence suggests that his original speculations ring fairly close to home. The blood toxicology report indicates that Martin had THC in his blood stream at the time of his death. Martin had been supsended three times from school, first for skipping, then for being found doing graffiti and being caught with a bag of women's jewelry and a suspected "burglary tool" possibly for entering women's lockers (screwdriver), and finally for having a marijuana pipe and baggie in his possesion on school grounds.

Also, it would be good to note the tactics the Martin family is using to attack Zimmerman and defend Treyvon. When asked about her son's suspension record, Martin's mother replied: "They killed my son and now they're trying to kill his reputation."

They who? The same "they" that the New Black Panther Party mentioned in response to Treyvon Martin's death? The white "they"?

Martin's mother, in her emotionally weakened state, uninentionally showed her full hand of cards. Hands that raised yet another wanna-be-gangster that died before he graduated high school. It's all too easy to blame the white man, but Martin is a victim of his own upbringing. A kid who tried to grow up too fast and ended up living a very short life. He became somebody that the die-hard racially motivated blacks can use as a Martyr.

Queue Tupac "Gangsta's Paradise".

[Merlin]

Patrol members should be trained by law enforcement. It should be emphasized to membersthat they do not possess police powers and they shall not carry weapons or pursue vehicles. They should also be cautioned to alert police or deputies when encountering strange activity. Members should never confront suspicious persons who could be armed and dangerous. Patrol members can be equipped for their duties. For example, flashlights or searchlights are necessary for night patrols. Many mobile patrols use cell phones or two-way radios to contact a citizen-manned base station, which in turn contacts law enforcement officials when necessary. Remember your partnerships and ask for donations from local businesses.

Neighborhood Watch Manual

A Neighborhood Watch is set up in conjunction with the local police. Members of the Neighborhood Watch receive specialized training from police on how to properly conduct themselves. While Zimmerman carried a concealed carry permit, the handbook clearly states that they shall not carry a weapon while on watch. It also states that you should never confront suspicious persons. He violated both of these rules on that night.

Also, Florida has some of the most extensive laws on making documents public. You can easily find it by a simple search. For example, here are the police reports as well as the Florida 18th Judicial Circuit Court media releases.

The medical reports show that Zimmerman's injuries were not life threatening and did not even require stitches. The evidence of his own doctors doesn't corroborate the supposed horrific, life endangering beating he was allegedly taking. Sure he got a bit roughed up, but he was not in danger of dying from his injuries.

The medical reports also show that he takes both Librax(chlordiazepoxide and clidinium) which is used to treat anxiety and Adderall(dextroamphetamine and amphetamine) which is used to control symptoms of ADHD. Oh but THC is worse? I doubt it:
Dextroamphetamine and Amphetamine - PubMed Health

I'm not saying Martin wasn't a bad kid with problems. He still didn't deserve to die. I wouldn't mind if this got dropped down to accidental shooting due to mental impairment. To be on those two drugs, he had some sort of mental impairment and was being treated for it.

[Joxsjua]

watch the video when Zimmerman got booked exiting the police vehicle closely. It shows his entire head; he did not have a bruise or scratch on him.

As Merlin said in his/her 1st post; he chose to follow the suspect even after being told by cops to 'stop pursuing.' It trumps everything, I've seen it happen before(nothing new.) He instigated a confrontation that lead to a death and by law that's a felony. Even if he had caught Martin looting a bank and then the exact same events took place; he made poor decisions resulting in a child's death and there's nothing "true American" about the series of events that took place.

The only question left in this hyped-up national distraction is what penalty/fines are going to ensue.

[Hobaginator]

Neighborhood watch guidlines don't change the laws. Martin decided to beat on a citizen who hadn't threatened him physically or verbally and died for it, that's the simple truth to it. The minute Martin layed a single hand on Zimmerman he lost all of his innocence.

watch the video when Zimmerman got booked exiting the police vehicle closely. It shows his entire head; he did not have a bruise or scratch on him.

That video was later enhanced and did infact show two large cuts on the back of Zimmerman's head, which ABC news later aired and apologized for their previous error in saying that there was no damage visible. Zimmerman was checked out by a doctor, he had a fractured nose, two black eyes, and cuts on the back of his head. He didn't need stitches because his head was slammed on a flat surface, not an edge. He most likely suffered minor avulsions and contusions to the back of his head.

Also, about Zimmerman being 'drugged', those are doctor prescribed meds -- not illegal dope. At the time of the shooting, THC was still illegal. I don't think debating the effects of THC is a good defense. I've smoked it before and several times found myself doing things I shouldn't have been simply because I was too high to know better. Martin was a high school kid, so he already lacked judgement in his adolescense. Pair that with drugs, and it's no wonder he got himself killed.