More trouble brewing...

[DragonHeart]

...and it's spread farther than ever. Is anyone else following this? The death of the US ambassador in Libya, protests, riots and attacks in multiple countries, all of it supposedly over the 14-minute preview for a badly produced anti-Islamic film produced by an American.

To me, it seems a bit more deliberate than that, at least as far as the attack on the consulate. But I also feel like things are still pretty confused, in this era of 24/7 news where things happen almost faster than one can sort through and process them. I mean, in just four days we went from an attack in one country to riots and violent protests in many. Egypt, Yemen, Tunisia, Morocco, Sudan, Iran, Iraq, Israel and the Palestinian territories, and now Australia.

I'm not entirely sure what to make of it all yet, as I'm still trying to catch up on the latest happenings, I just want to see what some other people's thoughts are on this.

[Alpha]

The whole thing gets weirder, too. There are reports circulating that the director is noted for crappy scholck action films ('Katate Cop') and soft core pornography. It gives an unfair picture of Americans. I read that it was produced by some alliance of Egyptian-American Coptic Christians, and the same group of Evangelics from which came that pastor who threatened to publically burn the Koran. And that the actors were duped into it by being told they were doing one thing, abd having their voices dubbed over.

I wonder if those rioting understand as little about Christianity in America (for the most part moderate) as most in the West understand about Islam. It annoys me when I see the word 'Islamist' used in the media. That doesn't make any sense. Why not words like Sufis? The names of individual sects, and their overlappings with tribal politics? I still rely on Al Jazeera English for news on such issues, but I wish I didn't have to.

[Yoko]

I've been keeping up with this topic ever so slightly. I try not to get caught up in the negativity that is the news. However, Muslims all over the world have been insulted by a low budget American Film called "The innocence of Muslims". Protests have started as a resault. More is explained in this article.

As for the death of the ambassador, that was another event entirely, but seems to have been squashed into these protests. According to CNN, it was an attack on Americans on September 11th. I don't have much more information on this claim, but it seems like something they would do. The attack was planned out and allegedly organized by the Al Qaeda. This article and video explains more.

[Alpha]

I stopped reading that first article when it used the term 'the Muslim world', which is a bizarre generalisation. I hace read of no riots in relation to this in Indonesia, which happens to be the worlds most populous (and secular) Muslim nation.

[Tiffany]

I'm still so confused over all of this. We caught bits and pieces of it just this past week while down in Mexico, but half of it was dubbed in Spanish and it was hard to try and follow. We only caught the parts of the 21 countries rioting and whatnot. Crazy.

[Lacquer Head]

Although it is meant to cause damage and be insulting, people rioting over a video are ****ing pathetic. I'm sure Christians would raise their flags and do the same if the situation were reversed."Groups" of people are just pathetic and immature narcissists in general.

[Rowan]

yeah i dont get this at all. Someone makes a movie that insults their religion (I can think of countless other parodies that insult other religions) and they feel they have to protest and make a fuss about it?
aussi-muschild.jpg

I am so disgusted at these people rioting. Frankly, they DO represent the muslim community because they are apart of it, despite their behaviour. You cant ignore the fact that just because you step out of line, that you somehow no longer represent your community. What are they crying over? Someone made a movie that poked fun of them, oh boo-hoo, go cry about it. I tell you now, when the riots happen this sat/sun in Melbourne, the police are going to have one hell of a time because Melbournes home to the most violent of Australians and there are talks of 'fighting back'. Its stupid, I know this now. but I really do hope those that are wishing death upon those who disrespect their prophet get their heads kicked in (except the poor impressionable boy in the above picture, of course). Maybe it makes me a bad person, but thats just how I feel. I dont want to be threatened by the likes of religious extremists and I really hope these skidmarks are wiped clean from the Earth.

[Diyala]

I just wonder how much will it take the other to do to release their unreasonable hatred against Muslims ! but when I think it it's winning more than losing when you're being so harmless and someone doesn't get enough of harming you . This wasn't the first attempt and I assure you it's not the last , yet , they might hate the prophet twice when they know that he hated to take revenge for himself back then when he used to be mocked at by his intense foes not a group of helpless aimless actors.


The whole thing is mean to me as much as it is for seeing a burnt bible or a collapsed church, yet the poor American doesn't deserve a killing for the actors crime.

Note : Rowan …being extremist is to aggressively and meanly attack others' religion and mock their respectable figures with no mere justification , not the reaction after which is replying to the very attack.

[Lacquer Head]

The film makers aren't quite extremists, douches yes, but they're expressing their misinformed hate speech. The extremists are the ones calling for the DEATHS of people that made fun of their religion. No persons beliefs are more important than others, which is why expression in the form of a movie is much better than rioting and murder. It's truly pathetic people act like this because some haters made a shitty movie. I truly hope the people doing all of this are brought to justice. I don't believe in the prison system though, but these people are endangering millions of people that didn't do a damn thing.

These attacks are completely unjustified and unprovoked.

[DragonHeart]

Thought it might be interesting to note that the actors in the film had nothing to do with the anti-Islamic nature of it--the director paid them to do something else (not sure what, yet), then went ahead and dubbed over them with his bullshit. One of the actresses is suing him for it, as she well should. The filmmaker is in custody right now anyway.

This whole thing just keeps getting more and more bizarre.

[Rowan]

@diyala: do you don't agree that it's not the behavior of an extremist to wish death upon anyone who insults their religious beliefs?

[Alpha]

^ Yes it is, and it's equally bad to wish the same upon them ("get their heads kicked in"). It's called hypocrisy.

I'd say reading the signs of isolated members of an angry mob isn't a good way to get a handle on what is going on. I've read some interviews with protesters in Pakistan who say that they're protesting because they want the US to introduce 'blasphemy laws'. Now I think most Americans would find that unacceptable, but I do think the video can easily be interpreted as hate speech.

I think there needs to be some clear communication that the video has nothing to do with the US Government, nor the views of the majority of Americans.

And it's not like every Muslim ever is reacting the same way to this. Crowds of angry extremists most certainly DO NOT represent most Muslims. There hasn't been any protests in New Zealand, and we have this from the Federation of the Islamic Associations of New Zealand: "[the violent reactions have been] "playing into the hands of those with the intention to cause this kind of situation". [Article: New Zealand's Muslim community has condemned an anti-Islam video and the violent reaction to it around the world.

The Federation of the Islamic Associations of New Zealand said in a statement that it finds the video, produced by Egyptian-American Coptic activists, "reprehensible, insulting and disrespectful to Islam and Muslims" and added "we are equally saddened at the destruction and loss of lives that have followed".

The federation called for "zero tolerance" of religious intolerance

===

I still find the entire thing absurd. The video is just so hilariously bad (complete with patchy dark facial makeup to make some actors look Arab), I don't know how anyone could take its 'message' seriously.

[Rowan]

I find the whole thing to be another product of religious bullshit. Where were all the mormon protests against the USA for the film orgasmo? I dont know why you are so hell bent on protecting this kind of behaviour. Hate speech (as you have so critically described the video) is still apart of free-speech. My point is that you dont riot against a country because some random person made a film taking the piss out of your religion. Not at all did I once mention that all muslims feel the same way, I am directly pointing my fingers at the people who are rioting as they are apart of the muslim community whether the rest shares their opinions or not.

It's equally bad to wish the same upon them ("get their heads kicked in"). It's called hypocrisy.

Who threw the first punch, Alpha? If they are going to beat cops half to death, I really hope they get the same back. Unlike you, I believe violence is necessary if someone is being attacked. If you can become a first class public speaker negotior and can defuse situations with words, good on you and I really hope you can achieve such a power, but if people are beating others up senselessly, then they need to be subdued.

Australia2.jpg



You defend the behaviour of these people, you try to justify their actions with your words. Just look at this picture. And then you tell me "oh well that was one persons behaviour" then I have nothing else to say to you.

[Alpha]

Protesting is also part of free speech Rowan. I absolutely condemn those who have actually committed acts of violence in these protests. However what I'm trying to say is that not only have most protesters NOT committed any acts of violence, but most Muslims aren't even protesting. Therefore one has to conclude that the typical reaction of a Muslim to this film is to be offended and bemused by it. Most haven't expressed hatred back toward it. Some have. I condemn those who commit violence because of the film, however you should be defending the rights of these people to be offended as much as the right of the filmmaker to actually offend.

You defend the behaviour of these people, you try to justify their actions with your words. Just look at this picture. And then you tell me "oh well that was one persons behaviour" then I have nothing else to say to you

But that IS the action of one person! You realise that you're using the same logic as the people you're complaining about? A HANDFUL OF PEOPLE made a video--even the actors had to be duped into being in it. And then a bunch of protesters are condemning EVERY AMERICAN EVER. A HANDFUL OF PEOPLE are reacting violently, and you want to blame EVERY MUSLIM WHO IS OFFENDED.

And I don't buy that 'who threw the first punch' thing, either. That's exactly what I mean by hypocrisy.

[Rowan]

They can be offended, thats perfectly fine. But what they dont have the right to do is protest against someone in the middle of public places around the world where they are causing obvious danger. There are legal protests, but this particular protest was deemed illegal by the courts for the reason it was fueled by hatred. So all who protest despite them being illegal protests, are breaking the law and therfor, responsible. It was deemed illegal for all the right reasons, just look at how it turned out. My friend is muslim and I've asked him about it, he couldn't give a shit. I am talking directly to this particular group of people rioting who are giving a bad name to people such as my friend. Here is something he wrote on his fb.

""eyy bro lets call all our brothers and cousins and rage agiants the western society this sunday on the melbourne streets"...as a part time muslim, honestly shut the fuk up, stay home or go 2 revs coz this is the BEST country in the world"

I'm not a muslim hater, my hatred lies elsewhere. What I do hate is stupidity and this group of muslims are portraying the kind of behaviour you would expect to find in syria and afghanistan. Also I would argue you alpha that the majority of the protest had turned into a riot. This was the only video of footage from the sydney riots I could find.




edit:

But that IS the action of one person! You realise that you're using the same logic as the people you're complaining about? A HANDFUL OF PEOPLE made a video--even the actors had to be duped into being in it. And then a bunch of protesters are condemning EVERY AMERICAN EVER. A HANDFUL OF PEOPLE are reacting violently, and you want to blame EVERY MUSLIM WHO IS OFFENDED.

It is the actions of an angry mob, they are the people who I'm condemning. Im not blaming muslims who wern't causing violence, as they can also be offended but not violent.

Also, please elaborate on why you dont agree that someone who's been assaulted shouldn't defend themselves? its not hypocrisy, its self defence.

I apologize if I seem snippy.

[Tiffany]

From what I've gathered from this, is that most of the people rioting initially hadn't even seen the video. Their local religious leaders called them to action to defend their religion. The initial countries rioting are very poor, and uneducated... not to condone what they are doing of course, but you can't hold them to the same level of reasoning that we have. Being that far down on the poverty line definitely changes the game rules - so to speak.

Hopefully I have my facts straight, its still been dicey trying to figure out what caused all this. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

[Lacquer Head]

One reason I am so disgusted by these people is the harm they're doing to their own culture. This is typical evangelical bullshit, keep pissing people off til they explode and look like morons. Anyone who's been on the internet knows this method as well lol. But people protesting the movie are fine, unless you start making threats and calling for the deaths of people, any protest like that should instantly be shut down. Even if the film IS free speech, so what? Everything is hate speech to some one, if you try to censor one facet of it, you'll lose freedoms in other areas. You can't just allow what might not piss people off, what offends you etc. You can either take all or nothing, and I am a STRONG believer in all. Nothing disappoints me more than censorship, even if the thing being censored is "offensive" to me. But once it DOES call for violence and other crimes, it's not harmless expression anymore.

[Diyala]

Rowan : I don't go with killing but I don't go with what provoked it either ,there is a freedom of speech and a freedom of action but not to be on the expense of others .
Get a bit real in putting things right , you mock some sacred thing of someone and then ready to blame them when they shout against it ! I hope that you don't expect them to keep still even here like always , this is too much to ask .
This is not anger of one action , this is an ember of a volcano of Muslims' anger whose rights are the last to be considered the quick to be trampled yet must accept even harsh insults like that .

Yes no one's belief is more important than others , but also no one's belief is so less than others to be particularly and constantly underestimated!

It's a crime and a disgusting helpless one when humiliating something in a shameful unacceptable way just because I know how sacred it is for its people . We all must stop when it's about our sacred beliefs cause it's what form our existence , what more will flame you if not the mock on your identity and the way you are . I don't justify the rioting though , I hate chaos..I also hate to see some civilized western cities get destroyed or to take revenge on the wrong person, we could do many things other than violence to deny such mean crime .We want them sued , at least a lesson to teach them their limits and for America to breed them well.

[Lacquer Head]

Mocking some one isn't a crime, nor will it ever be. If some one wants to help get "revenge" which is an ignorant mind set in the first place, they can make a shitty anti-christian movie. There are plenty of movies insulting plenty of people, but rioting on this level doesn't happen. What people need to "get real about" is accepting that the world doesn't exist to baby them and tiptoe around their feelings. You're going to get blasted, insulted, put down and attacked, but you can either be an adult and move on or be immature and try to KILL people because they made a movie.

To say a particular religious group is the last group to be considered is ignorant on so many levels. There are countries where you will be KILLED for being gay. Where a woman who walks outside with her face uncovered will be brutally attacked. So on and so forth. Yet, these people aren't asking for another persons morals be preserved, **** no, they don't matter, but as soon as OUR feelings get hurt, THEN the world needs to change.

These people are hypocrites, plain and simple. A peaceful protest asking people to boycott would have done SOOOOO much more for the cause.

[Order]

For those who think it was over a movie are falling for it.
They people who attacked that embassy didnt do it on a whim. It was no coincidence that it happened on september 11th. That date had signifigance before the attack on the world trade center, remember? No, Im sure most of you dont.

At any rate. The protest against the movie is one thing. The killings are entirely another.
These groups of militant extremists have been in exsistance for thousands of years. They dont get provoked into violence, they look for an excuse to murder.
If it isnt america, its england, other arab nations or divisions or even their own people.
Ever notice how they seem to lay out clear conditions for the violence to end yet it never ends?
If the movie was internationally banned, there would still be shootings in lybia. If Isreal were cut in half, cafes would still be bombed. If electricity and running water were removed from afghanistan, people would still be stoned to death.

There are groups who believe in a culture of violence and it comes down to thousands of years of revenge. The blood for blood philosophy feeds itself.
Outside influence is just used as an excuse to breed hatred.

Id like to see the US and allies leave these countries, but we would still have to buy their resources, knowing that they would be coming to us at the cost of death and oppression. Just as there are militant extremists in any country which exports valuable resources, the people who simply want to earn a living as a miner or a farmer will be subjugated by crime organizations, warlords and extremists.
Id like to present the tantalum mines in Congo as an example of a seperate culture suffering the same problems.

[Diyala]

Mocking some one isn't a crime, nor will it ever be. If some one wants to help get "revenge" which is an ignorant mind set in the first place, they can make a shitty anti-christian movie

Not an Islamic philosophy, this is more diving into problems rather than a solve . We would rather even protest if someone tried to insult Jesus or Moses or any of the previous prophets as believing in Muhammad means a belief in all those who came before him otherwise all what we did will be just meaningless and we will be real extremists as they were. It's a protest of a religious people and we wouldn't prove the opposite.

There are plenty of movies insulting plenty of people, but rioting on this level doesn't happen. What people need to "get real about" is accepting that the world doesn't exist to baby them and tiptoe around their feelings. You're going to get blasted, insulted, put down and attacked, but you can either be an adult and move on or be immature and try to KILL people because they made a movie

Protests didn't happen for one person's feelings , I'm sure among these crowds there are a lot who lost precious things because of America and were strong enough to move on with life, yet the protest concerns the feelings of a whole nation and we should express our outrage to deny what's being transferred about the one we love and Respect whether those who underestimated our matter are pleased or not , and when you think that it is so exaggerated, then think of the greatness of the one being insulted –though I don't think he was – before the greatness of the protest itself .

I don't see anything wrong with protesting , outrage over having someone's beliefs or faith mocked is not a Muslim thing, it's a human thing. People all over the world are passionate and defensive about their teams, sports, religion, beliefs or anything else they honor or love. But sadly we live in a world full of hypocrites who like to pretend Muslims have a different set of human emotions that are automatically created when someone decides to follow Islam while Jews have to be excused when stupidly and plainly put harsh punishments on whoever likes to use the freedom of speech that is usually applied on Muslims to deny the holocaust committed against many among which Jews were .
Punishing at this rate and the unbalanced freedom of speech is what I haven't seen !
It's all simple and plain , America is under the control of Jews who can't even stand on their own !
No one is free even those who pretend for calling it .The only freedom is for the most powerful to play with it the way they like.

To say a particular religious group is the last group to be considered is ignorant on so many levels. There are countries where you will be KILLED for being gay. Where a woman who walks outside with her face uncovered will be brutally attacked. So on and so forth. Yet, these people aren't asking for another persons morals be preserved, **** no, they don't matter, but as soon as OUR feelings get hurt, THEN the world needs to change.

These people are hypocrites, plain and simple. A peaceful protest asking people to boycott would have done SOOOOO much more for the cause.

Name one religious group that their properties are to be collapsed while they have to just watch in silence , a group that is being fought the most either for fabricated reasons or just so plainly for its belief , that its worship buildings are to be destroyed the most , that its holy book is to be burnt the most , that its prophet is to be mocked at in drawings and movies the most … and the list goes on.

What you say about gays and uncovered faces is ignorant at many levels , gays are never killed for being so , and no one has the right to beat any woman who walks outside with a face uncovered as I live in the most conservative Islamic country .

On the contrary your comparison is ignorant at many levels ; you talk about a world where freedom is ultimately allowed , yet you prove the opposite by going with the freedom of expressing hatred in films but not expressing it back in protesting ! your whole comparison between the open freedom you have – though you somehow go against it –with the restricted freedom we have within Islam is totally unbalanced !

The freedom in Islam is applied for all who belong to it or rather choose it as there are rights particularly preserved for non Muslims . But you tell me about a freedom that allows naked women to walk in the streets but arresting the one who covered the face as a shape of performing religious teachings !accepting Muslims to be mocked at but not Jews ! mocking against Muslims but condemning protests against the mock !

[Lacquer Head]

Not an Islamic philosophy, this is more diving into problems rather than a solve . We would rather even protest if someone tried to insult Jesus or Moses or any of the previous prophets as believing in Muhammad means a belief in all those who came before him otherwise all what we did will be just meaningless and we will be real extremists as they were. It's a protest of a religious people and we wouldn't prove the opposite.

No one cares if violence is any person or groups philosophy. Calling something an "Islamic" philosophy is stupid anyway, each person has their own philosophy regarding religion, no one person holds the same views as another. But anyway, respecting another persons philosophy is always a good thing, until it hurts another person. Then it's just saying they are better than some one else, which is just ignorance.

Protests didn't happen for one person's feelings ,

They didn't happen based on a magical collective decision by all Islamic people either

I'm sure among these crowds there are a lot who lost precious things because of America and were strong enough to move on with life, yet the protest concerns the feelings of a whole nation and we should express our outrage to deny what's being transferred about the one we love and Respect whether those who underestimated our matter are pleased or not , and when you think that it is so exaggerated, then think of the greatness of the one being insulted –though I don't think he was – before the greatness of the protest itself .

wtf are you even talking about right now? This is not some group collective from a country, considering these riots happened in many countries. Not sure how some one loses something due to a COUNTRY. People might have lost shit from a bullshit war, which is cool to protest, I'll protest it with em.

I don't see anything wrong with protesting , outrage over having someone's beliefs or faith mocked is not a Muslim thing, it's a human thing. People all over the world are passionate and defensive about their teams, sports, religion, beliefs or anything else they honor or love.

Are you PURPOSELY twisting shit around to sound like we are saying protesting is wrong? Protesting is a great thing, everyone deserves to have their voices heard. But the problem is with these morons ATTACKING people. People that haven't done a damn thing to them.

But sadly we live in a world full of hypocrites who like to pretend Muslims have a different set of human emotions that are automatically created when someone decides to follow Islam while Jews have to be excused when stupidly and plainly put harsh punishments on whoever likes to use the freedom of speech that is usually applied on Muslims to deny the holocaust committed against many among which Jews were.

Yeah, the world is filled with stupid racist people, the only way to defeat ignorance is with education. Teach people about the Islam faith and its people, if ignorant people want to continue to be asses, let them wallow in their stupidity. I have no idea wtf you're talking about regarding Jews or the holocaust. Who even mentioned Jewish people?

Punishing at this rate and the unbalanced freedom of speech is what I haven't seen !

Freedom of speech isn't about punishing people that disagree with you, it's about speaking your mind while allowing others to. The moment you try to stop another person for speaking their mind, you're a hypocrite.

It's all simple and plain , America is under the control of Jews who can't even stand on their own !

Way to be hypocritical and ignorant as ****~ No reason to even address this statement of racism. Grow the **** up.

No one is free even those who pretend for calling it .The only freedom is for the most powerful to play with it the way they like.

lolwut

Name one religious group that their properties are to be collapsed while they have to just watch in silence , a group that is being fought the most either for fabricated reasons or just so plainly for its belief , that its worship buildings are to be destroyed the most , that its holy book is to be burnt the most , that its prophet is to be mocked at in drawings and movies the most … and the list goes on.

As for properties, there have been a few attacks in America on Mosques by White Supremacists, but these people are morons and looked down on by anyone with half a brain. It sure isn't illegal, as for burning religious books and mocking prophets, Christianity takes the biggest beating in America. Burning books and mocking people is called FREEDOM OF SPEECH! Muslims can burn bibles and mock Christians all they want, or anyone. If it's motivated by some superiority complex, it will be looked down upon, but no one will stop it. But the moment some one calls for violence, you will be shut down, which is great.

What you say about gays and uncovered faces is ignorant at many levels , gays are never killed for being so , and no one has the right to beat any woman who walks outside with a face uncovered as I live in the most conservative Islamic country .

You're a moron if you deny that gay people aren't attacked for being gay. As for laws, I never said anything about that. As for the legal systems, I'm not all that familiar, but denying that it isn't an accepted cultural thing is also just plain denial. As far as I know, women's rights are growing in these countries, which is wonderful

On the contrary your comparison is ignorant at many levels ; you talk about a world where freedom is ultimately allowed , yet you prove the opposite by going with the freedom of expressing hatred in films but not expressing it back in protesting !

Stop twisting around what I said for your own gain. I said protesting peacefully is wonderful, violence is not. As I said, if you want to get back at Christians supremacists for making a shitty movie hating on Islam, make a shitty film about hating on Christians.

your whole comparison between the open freedom you have – though you somehow go against it –with the restricted freedom we have within Islam is totally unbalanced !

If your religious beliefs restrict your freedoms, it's your own damn fault. As for various middle-eastern countries, I agree that restricting peoples freedoms is wrong, but it's not our fault. I find it sickening.

The freedom in Islam is applied for all who belong to it or rather choose it as there are rights particularly preserved for non Muslims . But you tell me about a freedom that allows naked women to walk in the streets but arresting the one who covered the face as a shape of performing religious teachings

I really have no idea wtf you're talking about. I think I can safely safe that no country in the world allows naked people to walk around but forbids people to wear religious clothing. If you mean America, instead of ignorantly getting into a discussion with no idea or research of the truth, do your research. There are public indecency laws preventing nudity and such. You can walk around in any religious attire you want though.

!accepting Muslims to be mocked at but not Jews ! mocking against Muslims but condemning protests against the mock !

What is with you and jewish people? White supremacists mock the **** out of Jews anyway. Jewish people seem to be the main target for Neo Nazis and the KKK.

The message of this thread is that ALL hatred is wrong. No one is better or more important than another person. Everyone should have the right to say what they want without other people attacking them, even if it is hurtful.

[nickness89]

This is why I hold the strong position, not to ban religion, but to ban it from public life, education and Government, it has too much influence, causes too much trouble, and the Muslims are not the only trouble makers, all religions have extremists.

If i had the power, I would make sure to make it law that religion can only be practised in the home, or in houses of worship, however all propaganda and rhetoric stays out of school, Government and public life. This goes for Atheist propaganda too, just as bad, at the end of the day, I am almost atheist, not quite agnostic, I believe the chance of there being a God/Gods is 99% improbable, however there is always that one percent chance, and that God wouldn't be all-powerful, omniscient or all-knowing, these things are literally impossible.

The sooner we get arguments over something as meaningless as what happens after you die and what rules you live by, the better this world will be.

Perhaps if the Western world never raped and pillaged the middle eastern countries, they wouldn't have held a grudge and committed terrorist attacks, leading to the "spring."