God/Religion. Why?

[Rowan]

I dont believe we ever had an official thread. Any thread that was referenced to god had a lot of reception and ended up in warnings given out to various people for off-topic posting. So here we are.

Do you believe? why do you believe? why dont you believe? Should everyone believe? Does it bother you that others dont believe what you do? Do you preach? have you been preached to? have you suffered because of your beliefs? Are you christian? Have you read the bible? Are you christain and havn't read the bible?

Those are just a few questions to get us started.

Please acknowledge this in the interests of debate and understanding.
Please try to avoid circular argument.
Be respectful, but also dont hold back if you disagree with something. No name calling
Ill report everything to Meier Link I consider to be a personal attack.

before we start, some definitions are required:
Faith:Strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.
Atheism: A lack of belief in the existence of God or diety.
Theism: Belief in the existence of a god or gods, esp. belief in one god as creator of the universe, intervening in it and sustaining a personal relation to his creatures.
Rationality: the quality of being consistent with or based on logic
Reason: Persuade (someone) with rational argument
- "I tried to reason with her, but without success"
Correlation: The process of establishing a relationship or connection between two or more measures>
Causation: causing: The act of causing something to happen.
Religion: A particular system of faith and worship
Morality Principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior

Happy discussions.

[Asectic]

God and Religon? Honestly, when it comes down to this, I have mixed feelings about the believing portion of it.

For as long as I can remember, I've been a Christian. A Christian who attends Sunday masses daily sitting in the chapel and praying to God. Sure, I don't mind praying to God after eating the Communion Bread. The thing is, I'm just not really one of those believy kinds. And I've seen people who pray in front of Mary's statue right after mass.

The thing is, I feel as if religon should be a part of everyday life. In a sense, religon makes us have faith and feel more open to one another. Meeting new people, talking about our lives with them, makes me want to go back there. Even if it may not be really for God. And even if in my mind, God may be this imaginary father who exists for the sole purpose of hearing our troubles, hopes, and talk of the week.

I'm not sure about other religions, for I'm not too familiar with them. But without it, I feel as if emotions swirl around and stay swirled. Emotions that can't be shared in front of others. Then where will the person turn to? It makes a person too closed off, especially when they're not in a good time.

And I suppose many closed off people in the world wouldn't be good. Not good at all.

Anyone care to go against this?

Onwards!
Athna

[Elise]

I am a believer, I am a Muslim, but I am also a Christian and a Jew. This may confuse some people, but I cannot be a Muslim without believing in previous revelations; the Zabur, the Torah and the Gospel, and the prophets who revealed them. These are found in ‘the six articles of faith’ which are the very first things any Muslim must belief in. However, I believe that the holy books prior to the Quran that we have today were distorted at some point in history, literally or in interpretations, and that is the reason the Quran came and Prophet Muhammad was sent, simply to remind the people of the teachings of David, Moses, Jesus and other prophets, they are all from one source and go back to the teachings of Abraham. If I was born 2000 years ago, I would have definitely been a Christian. If I was born 3000 years ago I would have definitely been a Jew. It’s not about labels; it’s more about this idea of faith and belief in one creator.

I have read the New Testament, we have it and the Old Testament back home. I do read books from other religions and faiths, from their sources, sometimes my friends from other religions give it to me and I really don’t mind reading them with an open mind. Until now I haven’t preached to anyone in the sense of convincing them that my beliefs are true, but I always, when asked, try to demonstrate that my religion, or having faith in general, is beautiful. Besides, actions speak louder than words, so for me preaching is not a strong method anyway. I wasn’t preached by force, but sometimes I stop and listen to preachers on the streets, mostly Christians trying to convince others of salvation through Jesus. If you want me to elaborate more about how much I love Jesus and believe in him, please let me know, but to me he is a prophet, an extraordinary one yes, but he is not God or the son of God. It doesn’t bother me by itself that others don’t believe what I believe, what bothers me is when those other people are disrespectful and closed minded. Personally, I’ve met some people that are not religious, or even close to it, that are searching for a truth of some sort and try to reason things, I greatly admire them! I think they are better than some religious people who are only that way just because they were born in religious families and religion for them is just a tradition.

So why do I believe in one creator? Science leads to faith, I think science without faith is useless, in a sense, and faith without science is blind. I look in the universe, myself, every natural being around me, and I see amazing ‘technology’ and a perfect design. It is only simple logic to believe that this couldn’t have happened by chance. I agree with The Big Bang Theory and all that, but there must have been a force greater than the creation itself to have actually caused it. I agree with evolution by principle, but there must have been something that actually caused a beginning for it. By a coincidence? Chance? Logic tells me it is impossible. If you want to make something very simple, you will spend ages calculating and making mistakes until you get the result you want, then what about the universe with everything in it? Chance is not powerful enough to create all the sensitive systems. That’s basically why I believe in God, religion is only the way for me to know God better, prophets are just messengers, still we love them greatly not because they are divine (they are not), but because they are ethical wonderful human beings who help us. Religion is an extension for the natural pure self humans were born with, it’s about compassion and love. The practices within religion are not for God, they are for me and for the benefit of society, I can’t just be selfish and say “no one else matters, I do what I want”, and that’s why there is punishment and consequences. I agree that religion is widely abused, I despise whoever does it greatly, but you cannot blame religion for being abused. It is easily abused because it has to do with the matters of the heart, love and relationships are abused everyday; but no one dares to say that they are bad by origins!

I feel like I missed out on many points, but I think this has been long enough for now. I always try my best not to offend anyone, but sorry if I have done so =)

[Heartless Angel]

Avoiding circular reasoning in any metaphysical debate is pretty much impossible if you get far enough into it, but I won't get right in to that unnescessarily complicated argument quite yet, maybe later.

I don't believe in anything, nor do I disbelieve in anything. In the complete abscence of evidence, the only logical conclusion is that judgement must be withheld until sufficient evidence is available to make an informed judgement. The only real difference (in alot of cases anyways) between believers and nonbelievers, is how much evidence they think is required to make the judgement.

The argument from design is a good example of this. Some see the existence of universal order as a sure sign that something established this order, they believe this is sufficient evidence to make the claim that there is a creator. Others don't. I count myself among them. My primary reasoning for this, is that while the chance of this particular order forming randomly may be (possibly infinitesmally) low, the probability of some form of universal order forming was 100%. When one considers that the universe was here far longer than we were, it doesn't make all that much sense to assume that this order was placed here for us, but rather that we were placed here by that order. Were the universe's laws written in another way entirely that seemed like a chaotic mess to us, any lifeforms that developed and flourished in that universe would be perfectly suited to that system's order, and would see it as being every bit as perfectly ordered as we see our own universe.

Another of the more intelligent arguments for a creator was Aquinas' cosmological argument, based on the premises that all things require a cause. However, there is circular reasoning involved here if you look back far enough. The moment he suggested that the universe was a contingent entity, he immediately demanded a creator for it before actually stating it as his conclusion. Unfortunately, you can catch pretty much any good argument for OR against a creator in the act of circular reasoning (actually if you get really deep into it, you can find almost any argument about anything relying on circular reasoning). My opinion on the cosmological argument is pretty easy to grasp. Why is it more logical to assume there is a divine being which requires no cause than to assume there's a universe which requires no cause? Unfortunately, it isn't. Either way, we're to accept that something was just there at some point, or was always there. That doesn't help us fgure out what that something was.

I'd tear into a couple atheist (belief in No God, not to be confused with agnosticism which is no belief [or disbelief] in God) arguments just to be fair if I could think of any particularly compelling ones, unfortuantely I can't. Most of them I know off the top off my head are rather simplistic, and so easy to refute that it isn't really even worth posting them. That isn't to say there aren't good explanations for how a universe could exist with no God, because there are, but explanations can't function as arguments. Alot of people who identify as athiest are actually closer to my definition of agnostic, not claiming to know one way or the other, simply choosing not to accept a conclusion without evidence. Choosing to accept a conclusion as false simply because it has not been proven otherwise, is completely illogical.

I'm sure I'll have more to say later, but I'm rather tired at the moment.

[Furore]

I'm a believer in the Abrahamic God, though I'd consider myself Christian as I do follow the New Testament and believe Jesus was significant based on his wisdom and the impact he had on the world. Why? Because it feels right to me and most of the time thus far, those kinds of feelings have worked out well for me when followed through to a conclusion. That said, I greatly respect those who acknowledge we can't know for sure if there is or isn't a God at this point in time - they're quite correct.

As it's the New Testament I hold dear (an odd interest of mine is finding the oldest possible copy I can because I feel newer copies have lost some meaning through revisions and the like) I tend to follow Jesus' example. I believe God's word should be put out, but people should be free to follow if they choose. That's important to me - Jesus was cool with sinners and gave them the choice to change - he didn't force them and if you're a fellow Christian, you'd believe he died to absolve us of our sins, the ultimate sacrifice. So I believe people should be free to do as they choose and that no man has the right to deny them of the freedoms they may choose to indulge in. I believe the only one who has the right to judge a man is God himself.

And yes, I'm well aware this means I'm against many of the teachings of various Christian denominations - but I do not fear them nor will I swear unwavering fealty to men who are in essence flawed - my only religious loyalty is to my vision of God.

[Rowan]

Choosing to accept a conclusion as false simply because it has not been proven otherwise, is completely illogical.

I dont need proof to deny something. Its actually quite logical. Would you just default to beliving me when I say I have an invisible penguin in my hand? No, you would say 'I dont believe you, prove it'. Theres nothing illogical about that, its common sense to require some form of evidence to believe it. Faith is not evidence, it is a blind belief. Its also an example of the double standards held by those who believe in the existence of a god by the simple fact that I cant prove my invisable penguin just like they cant prove their god, yet they would still call me stupid or silly or my argument is dumb etc.

If someone says to me to prove their god doesnt exist, I cant do that. That doesnt give them more reason to believe he does exist. An atheist will respond to claims that a god does exist. Im sick of people trying to shift the burden of proof which will always be on them since they are the ones making the claim.

[OnOneRyder]

I have to agree with Heartless Angel to an extent, but differ in the point that I am an atheist by definition whilst I try to consider my beliefs those of an agnostic as I age.

For me the justification for being a non-believer swaying towards the side of saying such beliefs are illogical are that it appears to me so evident that the concept of a god is so man-made in nature. We are desperate to find purpose, it's been a part of our species as far back as we look at our civilizations and to many a god gives us that purpose. He appeals to human desires of success, prosperity and enjoyment. Desires many desperately want to become a reality. It has been shown that children of a very young age can come up with the concept of a creating force without outside influences or prior knowledge of the possibility of a deity, it's ingrained in us!

Another argument I side with against the existence of a god is the unlikeliness of it all. This is a topic which cannot be definitely known through the execution of our logic, as our logic is in actuality...not that logical! That contests with prior statements I made I know, but it's still a process we can use for evaluation. What we define as logic is nothing more than our ability to comprehend situations and formulate in our mind probabilities based on prior circumstances or situations. This is why I now sway towards agnosticism, it seems so unlikely that we are capable of extrapolating such monumentally profound influences on the universe with absolutely no way of examining the probabilities using evidence.

As for religion...man made principles and tools used to bring like minded individuals together and little more. Much of the supposed evidence is in fact, not even evidential.

When one considers that the universe was here far longer than we were, it doesn't make all that much sense to assume that this order was placed here for us, but rather that we were placed here by that order.

Reminds me a great Sagan quote.

"We long to return, and we can, because the cosmos is also within us. We're made of star stuff. We are a way for the cosmos to know itself."

We are a product of our environment be it culturally, biologically, chemically and atomically. When you ignore the final product and instead look at the materials and the way in which the materials are arranged it is an irrefutable truth that we exist within the same restrictions applied to all matter both living and non-living, organic and non-organic with the same rules of physics binding us together. The rules which apply to our cells can also be seen at work in supernova's, massive ejections of matter in explosions equivalent to an octillion nuclear bombs (fun fact, that's the equivalent of around 19,750 nuclear bombs for every cell in every human body on earth) . We cannot exist contrary to these rules which apply throughout the universe and I think that should greatly influence the belief that we are anything but the end product of our circumstance.

[The_Dream_Recluse]

Personally, i believe in God and most Catholic concepts (moral values, respecting one another, etc). I don't have a problem with atheist/agnostic people as they are people too and are fully entitled to their own opinions. Most of my close friends are atheist anyway.

However, i would like to ask a question to everyone out there (regardless of religious beliefs) - what values do you intend to pass on to your children?
This, i believe, is the most important point of all. Our whole lives, we make mistakes and learn from them. Some of us will inevitably find someone and settle down and have children and raise a family. But, what values and beliefs will you pass down to them while they are growing up?

I would like to take this moment to point out that we live in a society of extreme social freedom. Times have changed and the modern world has seen a social revolution in regards to sexual and artistic expression. Which is a good thing in a lot of ways, but also bad in others. As these expressions grow, people tend to rely more on the mentality of 'living in the moment and enjoying life to the fullest'.

While liberating, it is also breaking down our traditional religious foundations, namely commitment to one partner. But that's a whole different topic altogether and i digress.

I admit, i've had my own personal problems with religion in the past, but since leaving school and suffering from depression i've come to realise that my faith in God is the one thing that has remained constant throughout my life. My faith was especially helpful earlier this year when my family split and one of my friends passed away. It helped me grieve and come out the other end with a renewed sense and love of life.

Now, getting back to the earlier topic, i'd like to ask everyone what they intend to pass on to their children. I personally would like to preserve the Catholic faith and pass it on to my children - they might not necessarily follow it themselves, but at the very least i know in my heart that i've done all i can as a father to pass on my beliefs and guide my children in a positive way.

Just to let everyone know, i hope this doesn't sound like i'm attacking anyone, because i'm not. I'm just curious to know other's thoughts on the subject matter i've presented.

[Elise]

Why is it more logical to assume there is a divine being which requires no cause than to assume there's a universe which requires no cause? Unfortunately, it isn't. Either way, we're to accept that something was just there at some point, or was always there. That doesn't help us fgure out what that something was.

Because the divine being is not a physical matter, and philosophical materialism cannot answer this. The continuous expansion of the universe implies that if it could go back in time, the universe would prove to have originated from a single point. A physical matter that has zero volume and infinite density, these concepts are used to explain the meaning of nothingness, science can easily explain it, but it is beyond the limits of human comprehension. This zero volume matter exploded, the Big Bang happened, and created the universe. God is not a physical matter that can apply to physical laws and certainly not to human comprehension, thus I don’t think the circular reasoning you are suggesting is valid. This reason also explains why I don’t believe in Jesus as God or his son or the holy trinity, in any form Christians may suggest, because what is non-physical cannot be brought down to physical means in any way.

Also, the fact that the universe is expanding was only discovered in 1929 and brought the ‘static universe model’ to an end, yet it was mentioned in the Quran over 1400 years ago, and this is an addition to form an evidence for me, not only on this matter, this is just an example, there are many others. What is non-physical cannot be seen by the physical eye, the “invisible penguin” is physical, so of course I would be stupid if I believed someone when they tell me they have a physical invisible penguin in their hand. God did not leave us alone, that’s where prophets and miracles and holy books come in. I won’t expand on this point for now, but I am sure you would ask me: How do I prove that 1400 years old book is authentic? My simple answer would be: Have you read it?! I agree that the Bible is distorted, but the Quran is concrete.

I did mention earlier that faith alone is blind, in a sense, but there is this feeling inside that makes it, sort of, physically invisible, but you could tell it’s there. For example; if you are completely drunk walking back home in the middle of the night and you drop your keys, there is a small lit area in the street, but everything else is dark, would you only look in the lit area? Something inside you tells you that you dropped your key in the dark area, you don’t need to see it in order to find it, that is faith… somewhat.

Edit:

However, i would like to ask a question to everyone out there (regardless of religious beliefs) - what values do you intend to pass on to your children?

I would want to pass my beliefs to them, I think it's natural that everyone feels this way, but I wouldn't want them to follow without understanding what it is exactly that they are following. Force has never done any good, I would only try my best to show them the way, they are the ones who would have to walk through it and make the choices.

[Unknown Entity]

I don't believe in God, although once upon a time, I'd have said I did.

I was raised as a Christian, went to a Church of England primary school, and attended church at a few important dates around the calender (went to both evening and morning mass at Christmas, etc...). We said a prayer at school everyday in assembly, and had an hour long Religious Education lesion every morning before Maths, English and Science. I have indeed read the Bible - not entirely, but I covered at least 90% of it before I reached secondary school.

It was only when I went to secondary school did I realise how closed minded I felt about being a Christian. My secondary school was really multicultural, and everyone had different beliefs. I actually didn't know that there was the option of not believing in a God, let alone my God that I was told to worship. I still remember my first ever Religious Education lesson at secondary school when my teacher gave out our brand new text books, and gave us the first task of writing on the first page our own beliefs. I, of course, wrote out that I believed in God, and expected the same of everyone else, but when it came to reading them out infront of the class... I realised how wrong I was. My teacher then went over theism, agnosticism and atheism. Only one of those stood out at me.

It became obvious to me that God couldn't be interpreted in one way, like I was taught at primary school; the more I learnt at secondary school, the less I became to believe. By the time my second year came, and my teacher gave out our new text books and gave us the same task from the previous year, I knew what I was going to write.

So yup, I don't believe. I don't ever think I did if I was so easily swayed into not believing. Maybe if I was raised in a different school where I was able to explore other religions and wasn't told what to believe, I'd have a different opinion. I feel that I had a lack of freedom, and now I associate that with religion: why would you want to let a four-thousand odd year-old religion, along with a "guide" book that was written over hundreds (if not thousands) of years by over sixty-six different authors compress your life with rules and restrictions?

I do strongly believe that everyone is free to believe what they wish to believe. If someone wants to believe in God, then all the more for them - as long as they're happy, I have no reason to make them unhappy by thrusting my beliefs down someone's throat. I try not to outwardly challenge people about it either, but I do question - questions are important, but not as important than the answers. I don't point and laugh at someone's beliefs if they don't know the answers - I know it's impossible to know everything there is to know because there's no solid interpretation of God.

[Rowan]

However, i would like to ask a question to everyone out there (regardless of religious beliefs) - what values do you intend to pass on to your children?

I'm just curious to know other's thoughts on the subject matter i've presented. [/COLOR][/FONT]

Im assuming that you believe the morals taught by your religion are good examples to teach your children. My argument would with this would be that your god isn't moral at all. Any values I pass down to my children wont be based on any god (assuming there is one) that will allow rapists into heaven given the chance to be forgiven, and sending innocent, hard working loving parents to hell for rejecting him. Becuase believe it or not, it is in the bible that you wont be saved unless you accept jesus as your lord and saviour. How can you call him a good moral example if he sends innocent hard working loving people to hell, just because they dont accept him, whilst he will forgive those than accept him, who may have been criminals, murderers, pehophilles, etc?

[Imposter]

Soooo...I'm in the Christian boat. (although Christian today even in the global context is pretty broad, so I'd say evangelical as a sub group in the Christian hub.) To break it down would be believing in the Judeo-Christian God presented in the Old and New Testaments (Trinity, holy, righteous, loving, judge, Jesus was the 2nd person of the trinity incarnate type.) I have preached, read the bible, and I don't think everyone will believe.

I've got a few questions for Ryder. The first of which being about your first arguement of the concept of God being man made. By the definition you gave at the bottom of man and breaking down into materials. Does that go for the concepts and ideas we have? Or were you referring to matter specifically?

You also say that if God exists he is so far beyond our comprehension that we don't have a chance of knowing. I agree with you in part but what reasons is there for God not being active? Why would he want to stay unknown? Could he make himself known? I would agree that God is far beyong our understanding but was willing to make himself known to us in various ways. Ryder you mentioned that the concept of God appeals to success, prosperity, and enjoyment for mankind but looking at the character of God given in the Bible he also appeals to man's sense of morals, justice, and fear (If you'd like I can drop references later). Couldn't such an incomprhensible God give man such needs and wants so that they would be drawn to a concept of God as a way of revealing himself?

Again if there is such a God couldn't he leave a signature on what he created as well? Some Aztecs that worshipped the sun eventually came to an understanding that there was something greater because the sun followed a set path and was helpless to clouds that moved in front of it.

As for Rowan's question as to why I believe goes along with some of the above, I think God revealed himself through time so that we might understand him just a tiny bit for the purpose of developing a relationship with him for the purpose of renewing an already torn relationship between himself and mankind. As a result we can have real communion with him and as we learn more of who he is we can worship and praise him all the more.

As to the discussion of faith. I think it is essential and to many it is the evidence they need for the things they are hoping for. I understand where Rowan is coming from buuut even if it is common sense to need proof to believe something none of us actually totally live like that. The future is always an unknown variable so one does live without proof pretty consistently. There is no garauntee that your boss will pay you for the work you do but you live pretty confidently that he'll follow the laws in place and pay you when its due. We can't be given proof that we will get paid because we cannot forsee the outcome of the future. Without rabbit trailing too far faith is just accepting an outcome that we think is true and living it out confidently. Does that make sense?

[Pug]

God and Religon? Honestly, when it comes down to this, I have mixed feelings about the believing portion of it.

For as long as I can remember, I've been a Christian. A Christian who attends Sunday masses daily sitting in the chapel and praying to God. Sure, I don't mind praying to God after eating the Communion Bread. The thing is, I'm just not really one of those believy kinds. And I've seen people who pray in front of Mary's statue right after mass.

The thing is, I feel as if religon should be a part of everyday life. In a sense, religon makes us have faith and feel more open to one another. Meeting new people, talking about our lives with them, makes me want to go back there. Even if it may not be really for God. And even if in my mind, God may be this imaginary father who exists for the sole purpose of hearing our troubles, hopes, and talk of the week.

I'm not sure about other religions, for I'm not too familiar with them. But without it, I feel as if emotions swirl around and stay swirled. Emotions that can't be shared in front of others. Then where will the person turn to? It makes a person too closed off, especially when they're not in a good time.

And I suppose many closed off people in the world wouldn't be good. Not good at all.

Anyone care to go against this?

Onwards!
Athna

I envy this. I haven't been to church since I was 5 years old. But I have always believed in everything you have just said and have the exact same attitude about everything you have just said. The only thing im not sure about is your exact point of view relating to god. I do believe there may be something but im unsure. That makes me like a... Athiest who believes there may be something? I wish I had a word for this.

Ive always considered alot of religeous people to have closed minds however. This is probably because the only people i've encountered is preachers or whatever though so this statement is void and I would probably start going to church to meet new people there if I had a little push.

[Rowan]

As to the discussion of faith. I think it is essential and to many it is the evidence they need for the things they are hoping for. I understand where Rowan is coming from buuut even if it is common sense to need proof to believe something none of us actually totally live like that. The future is always an unknown variable so one does live without proof pretty consistently. There is no garauntee that your boss will pay you for the work you do but you live pretty confidently that he'll follow the laws in place and pay you when its due. We can't be given proof that we will get paid because we cannot forsee the outcome of the future. Without rabbit trailing too far faith is just accepting an outcome that we think is true and living it out confidently. Does that make sense?

The thing is though, that i know, that if my boss doesnt pay me that I can seek legal action for the work that I have done. I have the extra reliability on the law that says contracts must be obeyed and know to a great extent that I will eventually be paid. You do not have the kind of reliabililty with religion, or at least not in the contexts you're talking about. I have reason to believe im going to be paid, because of the law. The law acts as my reason for believing that I will be paid eventually. I dont have faith that my boss will pay, I have an understanding of concepts of law which in my eyes, are the foundations of society and a pretty good reason to accept something. Am i absolutley certain that I'm going to be paid? No, because I think its useless talking about absolute certancies because noone can be absolutly certain of anything. But I can say to a great degree and with reason, that I believe I am going to be paid. And my reasoning for this is i was paid the last 52 times consistently (reliability) and its law that I must be paid (accountability).

[Pug]

Without rabbit trailing too far faith is just accepting an outcome that we think is true and living it out confidently. Does that make sense?

Not to me because religeous faith is blind faith

Religeous faith is based on believeing in something or accepting something that has no grounds. Like me telling you someone 2000 years ago had a dog that crippiled its leg and it was passed down for generations. You are hoping something is true blindly.

Ofcourse there are other elements involved such as asking yourself "where does my conscience come from?" But this should only prompt you to believe there might be something. It shouldn't prompt you to blindly believe something particular.

Thats just my opinion anyway ^.^

[OnOneRyder]

However, i would like to ask a question to everyone out there (regardless of religious beliefs) - what values do you intend to pass on to your children?
This, i believe, is the most important point of all. Our whole lives, we make mistakes and learn from them. Some of us will inevitably find someone and settle down and have children and raise a family. But, what values and beliefs will you pass down to them while they are growing up?

Critical thinking, morality of a modern society, humbleness, fostering of knowledge. I don't want them to just know right and wrong, I want them to understand why things are right and wrong.

I'll accept their choices in regards to theism, but I won't allow them to be a part of any organized religion. It in my opinion has negative impact on lives and as much as I'd like to hope they're wise enough to make their own decisions, they're still childen and ultimately it is my responsibility to do what is best for them as I see it.

I've got a few questions for Ryder. The first of which being about your first arguement of the concept of God being man made. By the definition you gave at the bottom of man and breaking down into materials. Does that go for the concepts and ideas we have? Or were you referring to matter specifically?

Conciousness is just a part of life and is in no way divine. Not sure exactly what you're asking here....

I agree with you in part but what reasons is there for God not being active? Why would he want to stay unknown? Could he make himself known? I would agree that God is far beyong our understanding but was willing to make himself known to us in various ways.

You tell me, why would he want to be in the shadows and not known of? Make's little sense to me, seems more likely that he doesn't make himself known because he cannot as he's not real.

Ryder you mentioned that the concept of God appeals to success, prosperity, and enjoyment for mankind but looking at the character of God given in the Bible he also appeals to man's sense of morals, justice, and fear. Couldn't such an incomprhensible God give man such needs and wants so that they would be drawn to a concept of God as a way of revealing himself?

Why the mind games, why the sleight of hand? What does he have to loose by showing himself to everyone? The majority of the world all have differing opinions about who he is, what he wants and how he would deal with us and act out in his name yet he makes no effort to intervene and has continually allowed us to carry on like animals since the dawn of man for what....free will? Again, you need not look so deep into the matter when the much easier explanation of absence fully explains his reasoning for not make himself known on interfering with men acting out in violent bigoted ways that only man could.

Those are all traits and emotions which we feel, why would a god experience human emotions which are shared with other animals, has god also instilled creatures in the animal kingdom with his emotions? Again, foolishness and yet further proof his human characteristics are obvious as he's a man made principle.

[Elise]

Im assuming that you believe the morals taught by your religion are good examples to teach your children. My argument would with this would be that your god isn't moral at all. Any values I pass down to my children wont be based on any god (assuming there is one) that will allow rapists into heaven given the chance to be forgiven, and sending innocent, hard working loving parents to hell for rejecting him. Becuase believe it or not, it is in the bible that you wont be saved unless you accept jesus as your lord and saviour. How can you call him a good moral example if he sends innocent hard working loving people to hell, just because they dont accept him, whilst he will forgive those than accept him, who may have been criminals, murderers, pehophilles, etc?

In a way, I would agree with this, though I think it should have written less aggressively...

Personally, I believe if you do good, you get good, you do bad, you get bad, by principle, regardless of religion. If you are an atheist and you help the poor and give to charity, why wouldn't you be rewarded?! The type of reward varies and is very detailed for me, but that's a basic logical fact. Religion is not only by saying 'I believe in God', but it is more by acting accordingly, and religion for me means humanity before anything else. I once told an atheist friend of mine: 'you are more religious than many people I know' (I hope this doesn't offend anyone here).

I disagree with the concepts of 'Original Sin', 'Confessions' and some similar Christian teachings. Actually, if you look into history, you will see that these things were added sometime around 500 AD. I believe in the original Christianity, before it was changed.

[Judge Magistrate]

I was asked by my buddy Rowan to check out this thread. I shall explain to you in the best way I know possible my belief, why I believe, and why I always will.

I am a believer in the one true God of the Catholic faith. My family since as far back as my great-great grandparents were Catholics. However, it wasn't until I was born that my family began to participate regularly at Mass. I will always be a Catholic because the world didn't suddenly come into existence and neither did we. For this reason I have chosen to believe in God. I also believe in a Heaven and Hell, the places of reward or punishment for our actions on earth. There are instances were I feel like I'm nothing, but a simple prayer fixes that. I would say even to non believers, just pray once for something like help and you will recieve it if you really need it. I having been raised on these beliefs and taught in the ways of the Catholic faith will not renounce them. I have come to know my God very well while I've grown up, and I will not give this up for anything.

Im assuming that you believe the morals taught by your religion are good examples to teach your children. My argument would with this would be that your god isn't moral at all. Any values I pass down to my children wont be based on any god (assuming there is one) that will allow rapists into heaven given the chance to be forgiven, and sending innocent, hard working loving parents to hell for rejecting him. Becuase believe it or not, it is in the bible that you wont be saved unless you accept jesus as your lord and saviour. How can you call him a good moral example if he sends innocent hard working loving people to hell, just because they dont accept him, whilst he will forgive those than accept him, who may have been criminals, murderers, pehophilles, etc?

@Rowan-God is forgiving of everything, would you not want to be forgiven for something here on earth? Well, why would God not forgive you, he is the perfect being and will always forgive you. Also, he doesn't condemn all who "reject" Him. He only condemns those who know about him, but still scoff at His existence.

[Pug]

Hehe im gonna be blunt here, but religeous disscusions always make me laugh. They get really far out of hand and deep into it when really its based on some extremely simple principles. You can debate as much as you want but it all just comes down to the basics like I descrived above.

You hear something, you believe it hoping or fully believeing its true, even though there are no grounds for your belief. Its like saying an elephant just ate a man. Theres a chance your right, but the chances of you being right are 0.01% at the most. Why then believe it? Just believe theres something. Unless ofc your afraid of going to hell because you don't believe, or can't bear without some sort of social structure in your life, or any other reason to believe that doesn't directly relate to the pure fact that your probably wrong.

Sorry for being harsh but thats all it ever comes down to.

Edit: By something im also saying there might be a God. Just probably not the one you believe in.

[Judge Magistrate]

Hehe im gonna be blunt here, but religeous disscusions always make me laugh. They get really far out of hand and deep into it when really its based on some extremely simple principles. You can debate as much as you want but it all just comes down to the basics like I descrived above.

You hear something, you believe it hoping or fully believeing its true, even though there are no grounds for your belief. Its like saying an elephant just ate a man. Theres a chance your right, but the chances of you being right are 0.01% at the most. Why then believe it? Just believe theres something. Unless ofc your afraid of going to hell because you don't believe, or can't bear without some sort of social structure in your life, or any other reason to believe that doesn't directly relate to the pure fact that your probably wrong.

Sorry for being harsh but thats all it ever comes down to.

I know where your coming from, and it's completely reasonable to have that line of thought. Many people do believe blindly and with no spec of proof needed, they just believe. My family was that way for the longest time, than we took time to learn about our faith. I'm very afraid of going to hell, and no matter what religion you are there is usually an afterlife.

[Rowan]

@Rowan-God is forgiving of everything, would you not want to be forgiven for something here on earth? Well, why would God not forgive you, he is the perfect being and will always forgive you. Also, he doesn't condemn all who "reject" Him. He only condemns those who know about him, but still scoff at His existence.

God (for the sake of discussion) is forgiving to those who seek forgiveness. I do not seek forgiveness and I reject the idea of god based on lack of evidence. This, according to the bible and to those who have read it and hold it true to themselves would agree with me when I say that According to the bible, im going to hell.

My question for you Judge, Do you think I deserve too?

[Elise]

Hehe im gonna be blunt here, but religeous disscusions always make me laugh. They get really far out of hand and deep into it when really its based on some extremely simple principles. You can debate as much as you want but it all just comes down to the basics like I descrived above.

You hear something, you believe it hoping or fully believeing its true, even though there are no grounds for your belief. Its like saying an elephant just ate a man. Theres a chance your right, but the chances of you being right are 0.01% at the most. Why then believe it? Just believe theres something. Unless ofc your afraid of going to hell because you don't believe, or can't bear without some sort of social structure in your life, or any other reason to believe that doesn't directly relate to the pure fact that your probably wrong.

Sorry for being harsh but thats all it ever comes down to.

Did you read my posts?
I always wonder this when people generalize and not specify which point they actually disagree with. Which extremely simple principles I am not understanding? If you are not talking to me then please don't group all of us, believers, together.

Anyway, I agree that many people believe just because they are afraid of hell or whatever, but do you really think their faith is very strong? Sadly, the concept of fear does exist because some people can only deter from doing bad actions only when they are warned with a punishment. Personally, I think God is worth of worship and that is one of the reasons I believe in him and I am sure there are many others who do.

[Judge Magistrate]

God (for the sake of discussion) is forgiving to those who seek forgiveness. I do not seek forgiveness and I reject the idea of god based on lack of evidence. This, according to the bible and to those who have read it and hold it true to themselves would agree with me when I say that According to the bible, im going to hell.

My question for you Judge, Do you think I deserve too?

Do I think you deserve to go to Hell.....no. I say this only because you have not been taught all the ins and outs of the Catholic faith and so cannot be judged in accordance.

[Rowan]

Do I think you deserve to go to Hell.....no. I say this only because you have not been taught all the ins and outs of the Catholic faith and so cannot be judged in accordance.

Do you realise that you just displayed a moral issue that you have with your god?

This is because you disagree with me going to hell for not accepting him. As a decent human being will acknolwedge that someone who is caring and loving does not deserve eternal punishment for the rejection of a deity. So even you would agree that this god is not the moral figure you believe him to be. God also condones slavery, genocide, sacrifice and violence. I could reference passages in the bible, but only if someone disagrees with me.

[Pug]

Did you read my posts?
I always wonder this when people generalize and not specify which point they actually disagree with. Which extremely simple principles I am not understanding? If you are not talking to me then please don't group all of us, believers, together.

Anyway, I agree that many people believe just because they are afraid of hell or whatever, but do you really think their faith is very strong? Sadly, the concept of fear does exist because some people can only deter from doing bad actions only when they are warned with a punishment. Personally, I think God is worth of worship and that is one of the reasons I believe in him and I am sure there are many others who do.

When you start being specific of certain things things go crazy and you can argue all you want all day for no reason at all... but people who have faith do this because it means they dont lose arguments and can believe easier and they don't even realise their doing this.

Simple principle: probably wrong, believe in your specific god anyway.
Your reaction "I think hes worthy or worship so I believe in him"
Reaction to your reaction: Your worshipping principles not him. Your god is a "possible god" or "human made principles" Faith makes you say you believe in him. No problem if you believe theirs something but if your worshipping a specific god then this is the case.

And people with unbreaking faith can be worse than ones who fear hell. At least the ones who fear going to hell can always do 1+1=2.

Edit: Typos making a sentence sound opposite to its propper meaning

[Pug]

I know where your coming from, and it's completely reasonable to have that line of thought. Many people do believe blindly and with no spec of proof needed, they just believe. My family was that way for the longest time, than we took time to learn about our faith. I'm very afraid of going to hell, and no matter what religion you are there is usually an afterlife.

I have respect for your views as iv'e been reading them. I might not agree but at least it isn't one sided like most.

[The_Dream_Recluse]

Did you read my posts?
Anyway, I agree that many people believe just because they are afraid of hell or whatever, but do you really think their faith is very strong? Sadly, the concept of fear does exist because some people can only deter from doing bad actions only when they are warned with a punishment. Personally, I think God is worth of worship and that is one of the reasons I believe in him and I am sure there are many others who do.

I don't believe in God because i fear that i'm going to Hell if i don't. I believe in God because in my eyes he resembles a constant companion and beacon of light in dark and tragic times. Sure, to some people it may seem a little outrageous to see someone on their knees and staring at the ceiling, but when people are forced with tragedy (such as death or struggling through a difficult time) it's reassuring to know that maybe, even if it is only a slim possibility, that there is some force out there that is listening to our cries for help.

Most people associate God with a tyrant who wiped out all living creatures except two of each animal because he saw evil in it. According to the Bible, yes he did. But Catholics (and i'm narrowing it down here) mainly follow the teachings of Jesus and the New Testament, where God is explained to be compassionate and forgiving. The God that i pray to is one who loves and cherishes us, and is celebrated in beautiful gospel songs (such as Kirk Franklin's music).

[Elise]

Thanks for all the respect you're giving me Pug!

I don't believe in God because i fear that i'm going to Hell if i don't. I believe in God because in my eyes he resembles a constant companion and beacon of light in dark and tragic times. Sure, to some people it may seem a little outrageous to see someone on their knees and staring at the ceiling, but when people are forced with tragedy (such as death or struggling through a difficult time) it's reassuring to know that maybe, even if it is only a slim possibility, that there is some force out there that is listening to our cries for help.

Most people associate God with a tyrant who wiped out all living creatures except two of each animal because he saw evil in it. According to the Bible, yes he did. But Catholics (and i'm narrowing it down here) mainly follow the teachings of Jesus and the New Testament, where God is explained to be compassionate and forgiving. The God that i pray to is one who loves and cherishes us, and is celebrated in beautiful gospel songs (such as Kirk Franklin's music).

I understand and I feel the same =)
I'm not afraid of hell because I am so brave, I'm not, but because I believe that my God is a loving and forgiving God, even though he is capable of punishment, he is far more capable of mercy! It's not just Catholics, I already mentioned that I have read the New Testament, I think the God for every believer is a loving one, and for every human. Did you know that Jesus is mentioned and praised in the Quran more than our prophet Muhammed? And the Virgin Mary has an entire chapter dedicated to her? I love Jesus very much and you would be surprised of his high position in my religion.

I am not sure about you, but I have a close Christian friend who told me that he was taught that the only loving God is the 'Christian God' but he understands now how all the Abrahamic religions are very similar. He told me "If your God is a loving God, and my God is a loving God, then aren't they the same one?" That was the best sentence I heard anyone tells me when talking about religion, other people just want to argue instead of finding common grounds. My friend is Anglican by the way.

[The_Dream_Recluse]

Did you know that Jesus is mentioned and praised in the Quran more than our prophet Muhammed? And the Virgin Mary has an entire chapter dedicated to her? I love Jesus very much and you would be surprised of his high position in my religion.

I am not sure about you, but I have a close Christian friend who told me that he was taught that the only loving God is the 'Christian God' but he understands now how all the Abrahamic religions are very similar. He told me "If your God is a loving God, and my God is a loving God, then aren't they the same one?" That was the best sentence I heard anyone tells me when talking about religion, other people just want to argue instead of finding common grounds. My friend is Anglican by the way.

I honestly did not know that - thanks for informing me!

I agree, i was just using Catholicism as an example because i'm not 100% sure if other Christians fully agreed with everything i said. Didn't want to misrepresent other Christian groups. Your friend makes a good point. You and i both believe in a loving God and ultimately that makes us like brothers and sisters turning to the same creator for guidance. Aside from a few traditions and rituals, Muslim and Catholic/Christian followers are very similar. That, and we follow the words of two different prophets.

[Alpha]

I'll just comment to say that Elise is absolutely right. There are far more similarities between the world's religions than there are differences, but in our rush to pigeon-hole, stereotype, and create prejudice, we emphasise differences. Differences that don't really matter in the scheme of things.

Did you know that Jesus is mentioned and praised in the Quran more than our prophet Muhammed? And the Virgin Mary has an entire chapter dedicated to her? I love Jesus very much and you would be surprised of his high position in [Islam].

If only these people knew that:



^ Morons.