FFXIII battle system vs classic ones

[Odin1199]

I'm still confused about how the paradigm thing works. Sounds like a group of predetermined commands which makes it seem like monsters are also tied to their patterns of attacks and that spells predictability. Not like older FF's were super strategy oriented anyways, but sometimes you had make your characters really change tactics and do it pretty often. A monster that hits with heavy offensive spells on all and then goes to do status spells on one or all, then goes mega offensive on one person made it a juggle for healing, status repairing and risking who to heal the most before the big attack came. With a very fast paced battle system how can one switch tactics around fast enough, unless it's pre programmed for every type of scenario, which would mean heavy automation and just sitting back alot. Maybe not like that, but more like doing multiple moves with fewer commands. I can't really grasp or picture this system in my head. It's speed makes me doubt in it's effectiveness and diversity, but I'm open to enlightenment.

[loaf]

Well every FF game for the enemy has a script for them, it's always been there.

However the problem I felt with FFXIII is that while there are other strategies to the fights, every fight has that SPECIFIC WAY to achieve the 5 Star Rating. You can get 5 star with other strats but for some fights you can not.


Paradigms are fun, for you being able to input what you wish is okay but Auto-Battle still inputs the best commands on some instances, although I dislike it doing multiple types of elements for magic and then mixing it up with Melee Element attacks that slow things up, that is where it can be crappy but also nice, you can experiment.

If you time your Paradigms correctly you can basically always be putting in commands and your team will be acting out actions and you will have a full ATB Gauge as well. It's new, it's chill, they will change things up as the new part of the series comes out.

About 50% of this is all from Che a long time ago, I just probably worded it differently.

[Xanatos]

Paradigm is pretty much XIII's equivalent of a job system. You make various combinations to your liking prior the battle and switch between these combinations during the battle to efficiently counter your opponents moves. The number of combinations is limited so depending on the obstacle you're facing you'll often delete the old ones in favor of new ones and so on. It's like this, you have a team of commandos (Knights I guess in traditional FF sense) who are badly injured in a battle, naturally you're gonna want to switch to a job combination where you have healers, or medics in this case. That's putting it lightly of course. There are tons of combinations, and you'll constantly switch between them during the battle depending on the situation.

While there's an "auto battle" option you can issue each and every command on your own, manualy, the old fashion way, if you wish that is, so don't worry about that. And as loaf said, certain opponents have only one strategy around them if you plan on getting 5 stars after the battle, which I don't really find to be an issue as some of the bosses in earlier games require specific strategy to defeat them, Cagnazzo for instance.

[Odin1199]

I see. So you can select paradigms before battle, but not during battle and then switch between them. Can you switch spells in each paradigm as well, like cure 2 with cure 3 and from one target to all?

Also what does that 5 star rating do?

[Xanatos]

I see. So you can select paradigms before battle, but not during battle and then switch between them.

Correct.

Can you switch spells in each paradigm as well, like cure 2 with cure 3 and from one target to all?

No. There's no need for it, really. If your characters are developed enough you'll have all three tiers of magic at your disposal to use them accordingly, in other word Medic will have both Cura and Curaga along with other white magic. Each Paradigm role has its own set of magic, Medic (White Mage), Ravager (Black Mage), Saboteur (Time Mage, debuffer), Synergist (Time Mage, support) You learn magic gradually, from tier 1 to tier 3, by filling up each paradigm role in crystarium, it's a lot like a Sphere Grid in Final Fantasy X.

Most, if not all support magic targets only one characters, while offensive magic has its own radius, it can damage one or all opponents depending how many of them are in its radius.

Also what does that 5 star rating do?

Opponents drop better loot I believe, not sure. Also, to unlock one of the hardest FF XIII trophies you have to get 5 stars in each mission, or hunts if you will, there are 64 of them, luckily you can retry each and every one as many times as you want. You can defeat any opponent using numerous strategies, to gain 5 stars however, that can be tricky. As loaf said some of the opponents have only one way around them to achieve 5 stars.

[Odin1199]

I see. How does magic run out? MP?

[Xanatos]

There's no MP, sounds convenient, but not really. Both attacks and magic require certain amount of ATB bars instead to be executed, stronger attacks and magic naturally require more ATB bars. This game is all about buffs and debuffs and staggering your opponent. Staggering your opponent means breaking down their defense after which your characters have a limited opportunity to deal a lot more damage. It's near impossible to defeat certain opponents without staggering them first, Scalebeast for instance.

[loaf]

So you will use Cure 1 throughout the whole game. Cura is a slight AoE and Curaga is Eidolon specific heal. Curaja or Curasa heal depending on the amount of HP missing, so if you're at 50% HP it will heal less as your HP goes back to full. Curaja is just the AoE version of that.

So unlike previous FF games where at end game Cure 1 would just barely be good and you would focus on Curaga when you get hit and boom done.

[Rowan]

In other words, FFXIII battle system sucks. Xanatos even mentioned that there are bosses in which there is only 1 strat that will defeat them, which I also found to be the case. It sucked the fun/strategy out of the game because half the fun of fighting bosses in the FF series was coming up with your own strategy. Its not like ff8 where you have trouble with a magical attack, quake for example, you can cast float, or you can cast an Magic barrier, you can try rough through it with regen on your characters, you could maybe silence the enemy, you could increase your elemental resistance to earth, you could grind out on cards and one shot it, better equipement etc. FF13 has none of that. If you still enjoy the ff franchise, I emplore you to stay the hell away from it. It might be pretty to look at (despite how devoid the world is of life) but its a game thats so bad, even the soundtrack that is considered by some to be a masterpiece, just reminds me of a shit game whenever I hear a track from it. Now THAT is saying something.

I played ffXIII/XIII-2 to completion. My opinion is very valid.

[Xanatos]

Xanatos even mentioned that there are bosses in which there is only 1 strat that will defeat them, which I also found to be the case.

That's not what I wrote. Read carefully. I was referring merely to 5 star rating. You can defeat any opponent in numerous ways, getting 5 star rating however is another thing entirely as certain opponents often have only one way around them to do so.

While Final Fantasy XIII is a bag of mixed feelings for me I found its battle system to be pretty good. Overall, it's nowhere near as bad as X-2, now that game is abomination.

[Rowan]

But you do agree that most bosses in game follow a single strategy? Im not even talking about star ratings here, im talking about being able to defeat them.

You can bag X-2 all you want, but it has one of the most awesome battle systems in any final fantasy game to-date.

[loaf]

5 star follows the single strategy. You can beat the fights any way you wish just to beat it.

They made Tanking a more viable style of play in this game, in FF12 they have abilities for it but it was meh imo. Previous titles have Guard or Cover, that's it. Sentinel added that change for stuff like Quake.

Although I don't care for 13, I think everything other than the Combat system is fine, actually the game is fine.

Some people aren't like you Rowan and they don't want to spent 10-20 hours on Disk 1 farming a Card Game. Some people just want to play the game.

[Rowan]

Whats more fun than playing a game inside a game?

[Xanatos]

But you do agree that most bosses in game follow a single strategy? Im not even talking about star ratings here, im talking about being able to defeat them.

No. Most if not all opponents can be defeated in numerous ways if you're in it just for the win and don't really care about 5 star rating. Attacus is a prime example of this, one that oddly springs to my mind. I used to beat the shit out of him, each time try something different, though none of it was worth a 5 star rating. Even the issue with 5 stars disappears once you obtain the Gold Watch, giving you more time to do it your way, thus not follow a specific strategy to achieve 5 stars (great way to unlock L'Cie Paragon trophy).

You can bag X-2 all you want, but it has one of the most awesome battle systems in any final fantasy game to-date.

Its only redeeming feature if you ask me, and even that was not enough to keep me interested all the way through.

[Rowan]

No. Most if not all opponents can be defeated in numerous ways if you're in it just for the win and don't really care about 5 star rating. Attacus is a prime example of this, one that oddly springs to my mind. I used to beat the shit out of him, each time try something different, though none of it was worth a 5 star rating. Even the issue with 5 stars disappears once you obtain the Gold Watch, giving you more time to do it your way, thus not follow a specific strategy to achieve 5 stars (great way to unlock L'Cie Paragon trophy).



Its only redeeming feature if you ask me, and even that was not enough to keep me interested all the way through.

Well I guess the difference between us is that I've played both titles from start to finish. My stance is firmly against XIII and I would disagree about what would constitute a different strategy when versing bosses. The same paradigms need to be used in the same ways in order to defeat 'most' bosses. The only thing needed to learn is the bosses moves and what pattern they are used in. Very underwhelming and uninteresting imo. But doesn't matter, theres a million other things we would agree on anyway.

[loaf]

So understanding what that bosses attack does isn't strategy? Thinking, oh so when the boss does this at this time switch to these Paradigms and then it doesn't work? That is the same as fighting Sephiroth and he casts Super Nova and you are like oh shit wtf how do I counter this.

Learning the patterns in XIII is the same as understanding the Script in VIII. Literally strategy didn't change, the combat system did.

[LocoColt04]

See, unlike Rowan, I actually sincerely enjoyed the XIII titles. They were definitely different, no doubting that, but I found the battle system to be quite entertaining. Overall, it's a lot more simple than it sounds on paper, but the game remains really engaging at higher levels due to the frequency with which you will be switching your paradigms around.

XIII's story takes like... six chapters to really give you enough to feel like you have genuine options at every turn, but when it opens up, there's a bunch of stuff to do. It's just... railroaded until that point. That's a big part of why people don't like it. The battle system is really just a different spin on the Gambit system from XII though, so if you liked that, you're liable to enjoy the Paradigm system.

[loaf]

People complain about the Combat system because they don't know where to start with the storyline.

[Rowan]

So understanding what that bosses attack does isn't strategy? Thinking, oh so when the boss does this at this time switch to these Paradigms and then it doesn't work? That is the same as fighting Sephiroth and he casts Super Nova and you are like oh shit wtf how do I counter this.

Learning the patterns in XIII is the same as understanding the Script in VIII. Literally strategy didn't change, the combat system did.

You misunderstand. What you are saying is that a boss does moves in a pattern (not all games follow this convention, I find it very simplistic as boss moves then become easily predictable) but what I am saying is that its not a case of choosing how you respond, its a case of you must respond in a certain way, otherwise you lose. Its crap and follows my theory of 'theres only one way to beat bosses'.The limitations on levelling up based on where you are on the story in XIII screws it hard too. If it comes down to it (which I feel like it is) im gonna have to post a video of a boss battle and a step by step detailed analysis of my logic and compare it to other titles in the FF series. Please dont make me do this.

x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x
(mega flare attack)
*change sentinal*
(cop it)
*change ravenger*
x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x
*change dps*
x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x,
(mega flare attack)
*change sentinal*
repeat.

@loco I actually found FF12's battle system refreshing. Planning your teams strat outside of battle I found to be very interesting, and a redeemable feature of XII. I personally wouldn't compare it with the paradigm system though. Mainly because theres far more strat involved in XII, which I appeciated.

[loaf]

You didn't have to, I know how it works.

Strategy is the same, I don't actually expect you to understand it.

To come up with a strategy on both FF13 and previous titles you fight the boss and figure it out. You die, you try again and change your strategy. How is that different from losing to Bahamut twice before figuring out the strategy.

Also FF12 has far less strategy in any FF game. lol What sort of Strategy is there when you can Auto-attack your way to the Final Credits. You don't need any strategy, you can have specific set Gambits that are set, always or not. FF12 requires far less strategy. I have never sat there and pondered how am I going to beat this boss. Maybe I said, "Oh I'll make sure to Manually cast that heal sooner."

"Spams skip turn"
Attack as Cecil
Skips Turn on Rosa again
Kain Jumps
Skip Rosa turn
BIG BANG
OH SHIT HEAL ROSA HEAL

Great strategy. FF13 made you think, previous titles used your Reflexes and quick thinking which is literally the same thing. The combat system changed.

Lets Edit for FF13 Example.

Change to Healer cause we just got nuked.
OH SHIT HE'S DOING IT AGAIN WHAT SHOULD I DO THIS TIME
Wait at the right moment and change the Sentinel.

How is this different.

[Rowan]

lol What sort of Strategy is there when you can Auto-attack your way to the Final Credits.

Nah but seriously. Just because the strategy isn't happening during battle, doesn't mean theres no strategy at all. And later bosses require you to think, switch characters, use skills manually in order to be fully effective. This doesn't happen in XIII, in my experience. I completed all the missions on that planet too, by the way. Its a shame the game wasn't like that from the start. Had so much potential at that point. The only struggle I had was with the final boss on those missions.

Edit: Okay using your example of 13, bosses always follow a pattern, attacks are not randomized. This means that your scenario would never happen because after dying to the boss, you would know in which order you would need to swap paradigms (yawn). The difference you keep asking me about is that in other games, lets say ff7, I can decide how to kill my enemy with a plethora of different spells, attacks, support magic, limit breaks, and skills. Its fun. I wish I could have enjoyed XIII, I really do. Its just the lack of everything every other final fantasy had (spells, equipment, choice etc) 'ruin'ed it for me.

[loaf]

You want to be Hope killing that Wolf as Commando? Then change your team to all Commando.

A lot of bosses are scripted to do certain major skills at certain moments, some are not as scripted. This is what I'm pointing at, it's virtually the same just different.

Now I totally agree, I wish I enjoyed XIII, I think I enjoyed XIII-2 more and I'm just in the process of the final battle and just got lazy and honestly want to play it again and get some good leveling going on. As for Return of the Light, I'll hold on that for awhile.

Edit: My 2nd (1st game beat) playthrough of FF12 my gambits were as followed.

Ashe/Pinelo/Fran HP<75% Curaga
Ashe/Pinelo/Fran HP<30% Curaja

Everyone else was fitted with Auto-Attack the Nearest target or Leader's Target.

I would go AFK at the start of most boss fights and return stoned to Fanfare music with

CONGRATULATIONS

Written in the center.

Some fights, yes I had to make sure I casted Curaja a bit earlier or I made my Mage (Pinelo) spam Scourge because Melee is not a good option at the moment. Hell Wyrm obviously you cannot just auto-attack him, I tried lol.

Now strategy doesn't change, you still trial and error boss fights. The way you execute it (combat system) is what was different. You COULD have all these Gambits for BLK Magic and Time Magic and that Arcane Magic and Green Magic.

I once had a playthrough where I had 0 Gambits on the Leader while the other 2 did their thing, I focused on supporting the other two. That somewhat felt like FF13, I was controlling 1 person while the other 2 did their auto commands.

We can both agree though.

FFXIII isn't Great.

[Odin1199]

Nah but seriously. Just because the strategy isn't happening during battle, doesn't mean theres no strategy at all. And later bosses require you to think, switch characters, use skills manually in order to be fully effective. This doesn't happen in XIII, in my experience. I completed all the missions on that planet too, by the way. Its a shame the game wasn't like that from the start. Had so much potential at that point. The only struggle I had was with the final boss on those missions.

Edit: Okay using your example of 13, bosses always follow a pattern, attacks are not randomized. This means that your scenario would never happen because after dying to the boss, you would know in which order you would need to swap paradigms (yawn). The difference you keep asking me about is that in other games, lets say ff7, I can decide how to kill my enemy with a plethora of different spells, attacks, support magic, limit breaks, and skills. Its fun. I wish I could have enjoyed XIII, I really do. Its just the lack of everything every other final fantasy had (spells, equipment, choice etc) 'ruin'ed it for me.

Attacks not being randomized is pretty messed up.

[Rowan]

Attacks not being randomized is pretty messed up.

Having said all this, the game was still entirely worth a single play-through.

[loaf]

I played through 13 twice. I got to the Last Boss and had to return the game, also didn't even own an xbox, had 5 days to beat 13 and about 5-6 hours every day to play. Did it a second time

I got lucky and had 2 Disk 3's so I sold the game and kept Disk 3 so if I want to finish the Achievements I can just plop in Disk 3 lol.

[Rowan]

I played through 13 twice. I got to the Last Boss and had to return the game, also didn't even own an xbox, had 5 days to beat 13 and about 5-6 hours every day to play. Did it a second time

I got lucky and had 2 Disk 3's so I sold the game and kept Disk 3 so if I want to finish the Achievements I can just plop in Disk 3 lol.

Lmao, I heard its not as good on xbox but good on them to keep the old feeling of FF alive with the multiple discs. I missed out on the platinum when I realised that you need to have one of every item in the game in your inventory at one time, and I had missed some of the old crap you get earlier in the game which was no longer attainable. Curse the person who decides to create trophies/achievements like that.

[HUNK]

FFXIII has multiple disks? Hmm, never knew. (PS3 )

Anywho, I found FFXIII to be very entertaining. I actually just recently started playing again and am considering a complete restart of my save just because I seemed to learn things at an alarmingly slow rate. (By the time I realized that you could use components to upgrade maxed out equipment, I had already sold almost all the rare components that I had. xP ) Still, there's something to be said for a game that I can complain about and keep playing at the same time. I'm not entirely sure but for whatever reason I really like it.

On the combat: I understand that FFXIII's combat system is very "different". Now let's not do what most Final Fantasy fans do and confuse "different" for "bad". Just because a series decides to change something every now and again isn't a bad thing. Variety is the spice of life after all. I found FFXIII's combat to be very simple, yet engaging. There was a lot of strategy before a given battle by changing up your paradigm's to see which jobs would work best for which scenario. Then there was also a lot of relying on your reflexes and skills as a player in actually changing those paradigms or throwing that last second phoenix down to revive your designated medic. It was super challenging for me, and I think that's where I started to find the fun in XIII. While I loved FFXII, I will admit that once I was decked out with all the latest gear, I just walked around the world and watched even rare game enemies and bosses bow down to beserk/bravery/hasted Basch with greatsword. XIII always has kept me on my toes, even with these baller as heck Hades Magnums.

Overall I'm just sayin', I really liked FFXIII, and I don't think it's any worse that XII. I just don't think people adapt to change very well.

[loaf]

What, FPS and Audio makes a game better? How is the xbox version not as "good" lol.

[Odin1199]

So what would happen in FF13 if attacks suddenly became unpredictable and random? Would that screw up your strategy and limit your paradigm options more?

[Rowan]

What, FPS and Audio makes a game better? How is the xbox version not as "good" lol.

At best it makes.it inferior to the ps3 version. Not gonna debate that, lol.